How many people would want Karate in the Olympics?

DaBrow · 05-01-2010 9:59pm #1

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Furious-Dave · 05-01-2010 10:03pm

What would be the point? From a spectator point of view there's already Boxing, Judo and Tae Kwon Do. What could Karate offer that's different? Kata?

DaBrow · 05-01-2010 10:18pm

Furious-Dave wrote: »

What would be the point? From a spectator point of view there's already Boxing, Judo and Tae Kwon Do. What could Karate offer that's different? Kata?

Taekwondo is the descendant of Karate.... Shotokan Karate heavily influenced Taekwondo during the Japanese Occupation of Korea from 1910-1945. So there isn't really much difference if you compared them with one another.

Almost all (90%) of taekwondo techniques originate from Shotokan; apart from the language and a couple of kicks... that's what makes it different.

Taekwondo has Forms too called Hyung.... so please tell me how that makes it different to Karate.

Furious-Dave · 05-01-2010 10:21pm

You misunderstood my question. I know the relationship between TKD and Karate (sort of). I was asking what would be the point of having Karate in the Olympics. Perhaps Karate was passed over because TKD is already there?

DaBrow · 05-01-2010 10:28pm

Furious-Dave wrote: »

You misunderstood my question. I know the relationship between TKD and Karate (sort of). I was asking what would be the point of having Karate in the Olympics. Perhaps Karate was passed over because TKD is already there?

I think money was the main reason.... Rugby & Golf have enough tournaments and I think its ridiculous that given how much cash they generate already, why they should be considered olympic sports.

Taekwondo in the Olympic Games is WTF.... Basically legs only which differs from ITF Taekwondo which uses Hands and Legs.

Karate has Kicks, Punches and takedowns - Plus there is no political rivalry in the sport compared to Taekwondo.

The WUKO & WKF have better relations and don't descriminate each other like WTF & ITF.

Doug Cartel · 05-01-2010 10:48pm

There's no way they'd add karate without getting rid of TKD. Same goes for kick-boxing, san da, or anything that's even remotely similar.

DaBrow · 05-01-2010 11:13pm

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's no way they'd add karate without getting rid of TKD. Same goes for kick-boxing, san da, or anything that's even remotely similar.

I don't see what the issue would be...

They could have a mixed sparring event category which would be very entertaining and it would show more skill attached to the fighters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fqPCu40l3Y

This is Russian Kyukoshin fighters against Chinese Taekwondo Practioners

Doug Cartel · 05-01-2010 11:17pm

DaBrow wrote: »

I don't see what the issue would be...

The issue is that they already have TKD. The TKD people would kick up a massive stink if their event was taken away, and there's no real group lobbying for a mixed striking event, so why would the IOC change anything?

yomchi · 05-01-2010 11:21pm

DaBrow wrote: »

Taekwondo is the descendant of Karate.... Shotokan Karate heavily influenced Taekwondo during the Japanese Occupation of Korea from 1910-1945. So there isn't really much difference if you compared them with one another.

Almost all (90%) of taekwondo techniques originate from Shotokan; apart from the language and a couple of kicks... that's what makes it different.

Taekwondo has Forms too called Hyung.... so please tell me how that makes it different to Karate.

WTF Taekwon-Do which participates in the olympics is not the direct descendant of Shotokan karate. WTF Taekwon-Do is a stand alone martial art developed many years after the original chang hon system (ITF) was designed, which has roots in Shotokan.

yomchi · 05-01-2010 11:26pm

DaBrow wrote: »

Karate has Kicks, Punches and takedowns - Plus there is no political rivalry in the sport compared to Taekwondo.

The WUKO & WKF have better relations and don't descriminate each other like WTF & ITF.

No politics? ONAKAI / IKAB ??

There is no political rivalry between the ITF and the WTF, both groups are working together on joint activities in South Korea.

bungaro · 05-01-2010 11:38pm

is it true that the country hosting the olympics can introduce a new sport?? if so i wonder will brazil bring in bjj when its in rio?!

Doug Cartel · 05-01-2010 11:44pm

They can have demonstration sports, but these don't count towards medal counts. It seems to be getting more difficult to introduce these though. China was supposed to have san da last time, and that never happened. I think BJJ would be too similar to judo to be included, even as a demo sport.

Chris89 · 06-01-2010 12:10am

Theres allready enough borings in the olympics for another martial art.

I would love to see submission wrestling in there, but with judo and wrestling already i doubt itll stand much of a chance.

Also brazil will probably do a little capoeira as there demo sport, every brazillian we know does bjj but that doesnt mean everyone in brazil does.

Itd be like us trying to introduce Sean Nos dancing.

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 12:24am

yomchi wrote: »

WTF Taekwon-Do which participates in the olympics is not the direct descendant of Shotokan karate. WTF Taekwon-Do is a stand alone martial art developed many years after the original chang hon system (ITF) was designed, which has roots in Shotokan.

Taekwondo split in two if I remember correctly.

With respect I practised WTF which according to you is a stand alone style, but I didn't see anything really different from other techniques I learnt from Wado Ryu Karate whish I still train in. ITF wasn't that different apart from more punches allowed.

I fail to see how it differs from Shotokan which strongly influenced the entire style of taekwondo in its early days, the split happened partly because of Gen Choi who wished to share the art across Korea because he was a South Korean General who was born in the DPRK.

One side wanted more kicking and the other liked the mixture of hand and foot, from what I gather.

yomchi wrote: »

No politics? ONAKAI / IKAB ??

ONAKAI is a mixed Karate Organisation.... they have Clubs in Shotokan, Wado Ryu and a few other styles if I'm not mistaken.

IKAB is also a mixed Karate Organisation... They have clubs in Shotokan, Wado Ryu too.

These organisations are not Styles.... they are athletic associations and that is the difference between WTF & ITF which are styles.

There is no political rivalry between the ITF and the WTF, both groups are working together on joint activities in South Korea.

ITF is a single body for a single form of taekwondo and likewise with WTF which won the agreement with the IOC for its style to be used in the summer games....

The WUKO & WKF don't operate like this and the reason is this:

WKF: Recognises Wado Ryu, Shotokan, Goju Ryu & ****o Ryu which are the 4 traditional styles

WUKO: Recognises all the four but include Shōrin-ryū, Uechi-ryū, Kyokushinkai, Budōkan.

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 12:43am

Chris89 wrote: »

Theres allready enough borings in the olympics for another martial art.

I would love to see submission wrestling in there, but with judo and wrestling already i doubt itll stand much of a chance.

Also brazil will probably do a little capoeira as there demo sport, every brazillian we know does bjj but that doesnt mean everyone in brazil does.

Itd be like us trying to introduce Sean Nos dancing.

Ireland has a martial Art called Báta... Stick fighting.

I'm saddened Japan wasn't selected for the Olympics, Karate & Kendo/Iaido would have been great demonstrations.

Going off topic a little...

I'll be suprised if the olympics even are being prepared in Brazil, that country from what I've read and seen is more violent than Colombia was in the 80's to the last few years before Uribe was elected.... That footage of the police chopper being shot down in the favelas shows how dangerous Rio really is and fierce gunbattles happen daily there.

The world cup in 2014 I doubt will be smooth aswell which is also held in Brazil, I'm not optimistic about South Africa either in June.... After how FIFA Handled what happened between Ireland & France, I'm refusing to have it on my TV Screen this June & July.

yomchi · 06-01-2010 9:43am

With respect I practised WTF which according to you is a stand alone style, but I didn't see anything really different from other techniques I learnt from Wado Ryu Karate whish I still train in. ITF wasn't that different apart from more punches allowed.

I fail to see how it differs from Shotokan which strongly influenced the entire style of taekwondo in its early days, the split happened partly because of Gen Choi who wished to share the art across Korea because he was a South Korean General who was born in the DPRK.

One side wanted more kicking and the other liked the mixture of hand and foot, from what I gather.

And with equal respect, I have done both ITF and WTF. You are missing a large part my point if you think arts can be deemed similar due to techniques. There are huge differences between the sport of WTF Taekwondo and Karate, first and foremost its rule set, as you say yourself, Karate has throws and takedowns etc, WTF does not. The ring is bigger for WTF and 95% of the shots thrown are circular in direction and players will clinch before being separated by the umpire, take downs are not allowed - none of that can happen in Karate due to the different rule set. You can't say arts are similar because a kick looks like a kick.

ITF Taekwon-Do again has a much different set of rules as a style it has more linear kicks, but marginally, in WTF you can score and fall, not so for ITF. Shotokan influenced Taekwon-Do in the early days true, but it influenced the patterns/tul not the sport elemenT which didn't develop for the ITF until nearly 15 years afer Taekwon-Do was developed.

Your reason for the split happening couldn't be further from the truth. General Choi was part of a failed coup to over throw the South Korean president. The World Taekwon-Do Federation or WTF for short was formed in 1973 after an acrimonious fall out between General Choi and the South Korean government led by General Park Chung-He , which resulted in General Choi leaving Korea to live in Canada.

The WTF was formed as a political knee jerk reaction to General Choi’s exile, Taekwon-Do was a unique Korean national art, South Korea couldn't have it under the ‘influence’ of a Korean exile based in Canada. The Korean Taekwon-Do Association went on to form the Kukkiwon the WTF head office and administration centre based in South Korea. It wasn't because some wanted only kicks and some wanted to punch

Charlie3dan · 06-01-2010 11:31am

I'm a shotokan practitioner and personally I wouldn't like to see it make the olympics.
I have no problem with sport karate and I compete myself but I'm not in favour of people doing karate only for sport which I think would be the case if it were included in the Olympics.

The martial arts that are in the Olympics have been changed to suit the Olympics. While this might mean greater exposure for the art I think some of the changes are to the detrement of the art.

Having said all that, if karate does end up getting in, I'd happily try out for the team.

yomchi · 06-01-2010 12:33pm

Good point Charlie

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 12:37pm

yomchi wrote: »

And with equal respect, I have done both ITF and WTF. You are missing a large part my point if you think arts can be deemed similar due to techniques. There are huge differences between the sport of WTF Taekwondo and Karate, first and foremost its rule set, as you say yourself, Karate has throws and takedowns etc, WTF does not. The ring is bigger for WTF and 95% of the shots thrown are circular in direction and players will clinch before being separated by the umpire, take downs are not allowed - none of that can happen in Karate due to the different rule set. You can't say arts are similar because a kick looks like a kick.

ITF Taekwon-Do again has a much different set of rules as a style it has more linear kicks, but marginally, in WTF you can score and fall, not so for ITF. Shotokan influenced Taekwon-Do in the early days true, but it influenced the patterns/tul not the sport elemenT which didn't develop for the ITF until nearly 15 years afer Taekwon-Do was developed.

Your reason for the split happening couldn't be further from the truth. General Choi was part of a failed coup to over throw the South Korean president. The World Taekwon-Do Federation or WTF for short was formed in 1973 after an acrimonious fall out between General Choi and the South Korean government led by General Park Chung-He , which resulted in General Choi leaving Korea to live in Canada.

The WTF was formed as a political knee jerk reaction to General Choi’s exile, Taekwon-Do was a unique Korean national art, South Korea couldn't have it under the ‘influence’ of a Korean exile based in Canada. The Korean Taekwon-Do Association went on to form the Kukkiwon the WTF head office and administration centre based in South Korea. It wasn't because some wanted only kicks and some wanted to punch

I'm glad to see that we can respectfully argue over this, I do remember that on the issue of Choi... He caused a large controversy because he passed on the knowledge of Taekwondo to the North Koreans AKA The Enemy and he was a general in the Southern Army despite his being born in PyongYang and Anti-Communist leaning.

As a person who has practised Taekwondo; there are throws and takedowns in the art from advanced self-defence/forms... but these aren't allowed in actual sparring competition, Karate Sparring only allows a takedown in the format of a sweep where you then have to make a finishing hand technique but only if you are very quick.

Too be honest, a lot of Taekwondo Kicks that I've seen don't really differ from Karate....

The Front Kick is the Same

The Turning Kick is the Roundhouse Kick

The Back kick isn't too different

One Step forward/backward Kicks don't really differ

Jumping Kicks don't differ that much either.... Only one Airborne kick like the split kick appears unique.

I can't see how the majority of techniques from TKD really differ from Karate, with respect.

WTF Taekwondo appears more like Full-Contact Kyokushin Karate Rules...... Full Power is allowed and You can kick to the head and body but you can only punch to the mid section and minus the head.

ITF is semi-contact and allows hand techniques to the face along with kicks to the body.... The rules which I follow in Wado Ryu.

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 12:49pm

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I'm a shotokan practitioner and personally I wouldn't like to see it make the olympics.
I have no problem with sport karate and I compete myself but I'm not in favour of people doing karate only for sport which I think would be the case if it were included in the Olympics.

The martial arts that are in the Olympics have been changed to suit the Olympics. While this might mean greater exposure for the art I think some of the changes are to the detrement of the art.

Having said all that, if karate does end up getting in, I'd happily try out for the team.

I take on board your view, if Karate was accepted in the Olympics... they would have to work with the WUKO & WKF which are the official International bodies of Karate.

It would allow people from recognised styles to compete under specific rules and challenge one another, they would certainly see that competitors are Martial Artists first and sportsmen second. The WKF is more traditional in the styles it recognises while the WUKO are a mixture of Traditional and More Recent Styles like Kyokushin.

Taekwondo in the Olympics operates under the agreement of the WTF, Olympic Taekwondo follow WTF sparring rules or are very heavily influenced by them so I don't think many changes have been made to make it an IOC Sport.

Karate isn't as political as Taekwondo, I went to University in the UK and I noticed there were a few clubs in TKD that were "Independent" because they refused to side with the ITF or WTF. They taught the art itself and in regard to sparring trained in both ITF/WTF depending on competitions they entered.

Damo W · 06-01-2010 12:57pm

Hi Guys,

I teach karate Koryu Uchinadi kenpo-jutsu www.koryu-uchinadi.com (and come from a Shotokan background) I would have no problem with karate in the olympics even though I don't partake in competitions or teach competition karate (in fact quiet the opposite).

Any movement to bring karate or the ma in general to the front is good in my eyes.

And if people become involved in martial arts (regardless of what it is) from viewing something at olympic level well thats cool, the more the merrier.

[Being in the olympics might also provide the basis for an Olympic squad being formed and reduce the barriers between various groups (political and style based) and standardise the general rule set, just an add on there]

Bearing in mind that sport karate is a 'new invention' and that there are many more older karate systems than the 'traditional' ones (how can they call them traditional, but that's another thread:)) listed by WUKO and WKF.

Just my thoughts

me_arse · 06-01-2010 1:42pm

[Being in the olympics might also provide the basis for an Olympic squad being formed and reduce the barriers between various groups (political and style based) and standardise the general rule set, just an add on there]

Bearing in mind that sport karate is a 'new invention' and that there are many more older karate systems than the 'traditional' ones (how can they call them traditional, but that's another thread:)) listed by WUKO and WKF.

The basis of an olympic Karate squad already exists - the ONAKAI squad. ONAKAI is the national representative for the WKF in Ireland and therefore would be the Olympic squad. Its a pity it disn't get in as I believe it is a very entertaining spectator sport and the kata is second to none http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkSlONbEhDM. I think it was very unfortunate that Karate's olympic bid was turned down and I also think that the voting system was changed in a biased manner at the last minute to suit golf. Karate was second favourite to be accepted along with Rugby 7s and I believe the WKF were very disappointed in the manner of which they failed. http://www.wkf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=220:information-on-ioc-executive-board-decision-for-new-sports-added-in-the-programme&catid=42:wkf-news&Itemid=109

Chris89 · 06-01-2010 2:07pm

If them katas get into the Olympics, well have acting and interpretative dance next.

Fair enough those little spars in that video are a bit of a competition, but is it just one hit and its over or what? not much of a fight. And whats going on with those fake fights, are they just demonstrations or what?

Maybe its because i havent a clue about karate but it seems like a rubbish spectator sport, tkd aswell.

I havent a clue about gymnastics, but thats a bit good to watch.. and the high dive and pretty much all of track and field. That appeals to everyone.

The olympics was originally just a race and a fight. Thats what you want

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 2:51pm

me_arse wrote: »

[Being in the olympics might also provide the basis for an Olympic squad being formed and reduce the barriers between various groups (political and style based) and standardise the general rule set, just an add on there]

Bearing in mind that sport karate is a 'new invention' and that there are many more older karate systems than the 'traditional' ones (how can they call them traditional, but that's another thread:)) listed by WUKO and WKF.

The basis of an olympic Karate squad already exists - the ONAKAI squad. ONAKAI is the national representative for the WKF in Ireland and therefore would be the Olympic squad. Its a pity it disn't get in as I believe it is a very entertaining spectator sport and the kata is second to none http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkSlONbEhDM. I think it was very unfortunate that Karate's olympic bid was turned down and I also think that the voting system was changed in a biased manner at the last minute to suit golf. Karate was second favourite to be accepted along with Rugby 7s and I believe the WKF were very disappointed in the manner of which they failed. http://www.wkf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=220:information-on-ioc-executive-board-decision-for-new-sports-added-in-the-programme&catid=42:wkf-news&Itemid=109

I'm hoping people like you would join the group at the beggining of this thread, I feel that Karate was sidelined purely for money.... There are more Karate Practioners than Golf & Rugby enthusiasts I believe.

I was very angered that Golf was chosen over Karate... Especially when the spirit of the games is supposed to be about Amateurs acheiving great things.

Boxing for example is an amateur sport in the games and Professional Boxers are not allowed compete under IOC rules, most of the categories are in the spirit of this ideal.

There are already loads of internationally recognised tours and tournaments for that sport; this will be dominated entirely by professionals and will ruin the games.... Rugby is like this too and I feel the IOC sold out to commercialism.

Chris89 · 06-01-2010 2:56pm

your facebook group still only has one member by the way.

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 3:00pm

Chris89 wrote: »

your facebook group still only has one member by the way.

Give it time!:)

It's only a day old

Roper · 06-01-2010 6:34pm

People seriously overestimate the popularity and importance of what they do. Karate is, by and large, not a sport for the vast majority of people so saying it's popular therefore it should be in is a bit rich.

Gorman · 06-01-2010 6:38pm

A K1 style event would be great, that way it's open to boxers, Mauy Thai, TKD, karate, kickboxers etc,

BTW I know that would never happen, would be great though.

DaBrow · 06-01-2010 6:46pm

Roper wrote: »

People seriously overestimate the popularity and importance of what they do. Karate is, by and large, not a sport for the vast majority of people so saying it's popular therefore it should be in is a bit rich.

The event selection rules were suddenly changed to make it easier for Golf & Rugby (Money?) than Karate, which was a leading contender.

Many were angered of this, especially when there are already enough Golf & Rugby tournaments.

Sid_Justice · 06-01-2010 6:49pm

I think it's a bit premature for a sport that doesn't even have a proper world championships to go looking for olympics recognition.

I've love to see submission grappling make it to the games but i won't hold my breath. wouldn't mind if they got rid of Greco.

Chris89 · 06-01-2010 6:59pm

Karate is just so boring to watch unless youre involved in it.

Why would you want them to get rid of greco??

How many people would want Karate in the Olympics?

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