Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

concussion · 07-12-2009 11:18pm

Steyr wrote: »

Google USAFE

All I got was rent your own safes....

Dublin_Gunner · 07-12-2009 11:56pm

concussion wrote: »

All I got was rent your own safes....

You must not be googling properly, because the first link listed for me was:
http://www.usafe.af.mil/

Steyr · 08-12-2009 12:06am

concussion wrote: »

All I got was rent your own safes....

Ok :pac:

United States Air Forces in Europe (USAFE)

concussion · 08-12-2009 12:18am

Apologies, too subtle. I was referring to the pronunciation U-SAFE, which reminded me of U-HAUL. Anyway, yes, USAFE, a formation of the USAF numbering around 4 times the Irish DF and spread all over Europe.

Morpheus · 08-12-2009 1:26am

seriously this thread has been the funniest ive read in years!!!

a carrier on the shannon, would certainly increase tourism on the pleasure cruises up and down the river!!!

:pac::D

mrmanire · 08-12-2009 1:40am

concussion wrote: »

Apologies, too subtle. I was referring to the pronunciation U-SAFE, which reminded me of U-HAUL. Anyway, yes, USAFE, a formation of the USAF numbering around 4 times the Irish DF and spread all over Europe.

If Ireland was to be hypothetically attacked by a foreign power; obviously the primary source of aid would come from Europe and thus most likely Britain. If Europe was not to react, then of course it would would be down to the US. This would have to be done by Naval means (once again the mythical aircraft carrier) which would most likely would not be stationed anywhere near.

The only alternative would thus be the aircraft of USAFE and their combat aircraft are located within Britain and Germany. If Britain was reluctant to utilise force to protect Ireland on it's own; it would thus be reluctant to allow the US (or any other power) to use it's bases and airspace to launch any form of operation. An operation from Germany would be impracticable even using refuelling aircraft as they would have to fly around Britain. If I was the British Government; I would of course feel rightly justified and would stick an armoured infantry battalion into RAF Lakenheath. Thus the USAFE option is null and void.

Of course this all hypothetical is (again the magical aircraft carrier) and would never ever ever happen.

Manic Moran · 08-12-2009 5:14am

Morphéus wrote: »

:pac::D

Curses. I was going to post the Lat/Long for that, but you got there first.

NTM

ShotgunPaddy · 08-12-2009 8:36am

Manic Moran wrote: »

Curses. I was going to post the Lat/Long for that, but you got there first.

NTM

Given that most European countries will be forced to make dramatic cutbacks in defence spending it is only a matter of time before European countries combine navies and air forces. Europe will have to compete with the Chinese for raw materials and energy resources. The Chinese are building a blue water navy and will soon have the ability to project power in far flung corners of the globe. It is essential that Europe has the ability to counter this because we cannot rely on a weakened America to limit Chinese expansionism. I predict a new era of benevolent colonialism where industrial nations compete for the attentions of poorer nations with undeveloped resources.

Europe needs to ensure that it's military forces are capable of securing it's resource needs. It can start by amalgamating elements of European navies into a task force capable of maritime power projection anywhere in the globe. Some Euro Navy units could operate out of Irish Ports securing the western perimeter against attack.

getz · 08-12-2009 9:58am

McArmalite wrote: »

Well considering britain more than milked Ireland for years, (even under the terms of the treaty the new Irish state had to assume part of britian's debt), what ever about the rest of the EU, the brits should be the last ones to tell us about how we have spent our money and patrolling our waters. Besides, look at the economic shape britian is in, I mean they have to depend on charity's to support their wounded and maimed soldiers back from Afghanistan as the british govt fall short on support for them.

Well they didn't chip in when the Icelandics ran you home in the Cod War* . And the Americans showed their obligations to you when they invaded Grenada without requesting or telling you

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

the first thing you should check out is to who invaded granada,when you have done that you may find out that many british commonwealth countries were part of the invasion,i am astonished you havent yet connected english soldiers input to the plague[black death]which is believed to have killed up to 84% of the people of ireland in the 14th century

hk · 08-12-2009 10:18am

There is an aircraft carrier stationed off the west coast most of the time, it sometimes is based in the shannon estuary aswell.

LE Eithne, Flagship NS and the finest aircraft carrier that Ireland owns

Fratton Fred · 08-12-2009 10:31am

McArmalite wrote: »

Well they didn't chip in when the Icelandics ran you home in the Cod War

The Icelandic navy no more ran the Royal navy out of Iceland than the IRA did the British Army out of Londonderry.

British trawlers carried on fishing up there just like the Union Flag flies over Stormont.

God save our Gracious Queen........:D

getz · 08-12-2009 10:43am

Mousey- wrote: »

like any country in the first world nowadays.....their would be world wide outcry if we were invaded....and eventually nato or the un would but in and nag or fight the invader away (depending on which)

lets see NATO,members,albania,belgium,bulgaria,canada,croatia,check rep denmark,estonia france,germany,greece,hungary,icland,italy,latvia,lithuania,luxenbourg,netherlands,norway,poland,portugal,romania,slavakia,slovenia,spain,turkey,united kingdom,united states .thats 28 members,now where is ireland ?not there,sorry lads if invaded you are f...

Manic Moran · 08-12-2009 10:43am

By the way, speaking of aircraft carriers on lakes, USS Wolverine and USS Sable spent all of WWII on lakes.

NTM

MetalDawg · 08-12-2009 10:54am

The US Navy would never send an aircraft carrier up the Shannon Estuary. Its too close to Limerick.

Boskowski · 08-12-2009 10:57am

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Given Ireland's lack of adequate naval and air defence, should we not look at partnering with another European state? Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation but what about the French. We already cooperate closely with French forces in Chad. Should we ask the French to station an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary and share the running costs?

Share your thoughts.

I think thats a stupid idea.

Imagine the state the state finances would be in if on top of all the other things we're too stupid to manage and administer we also ran a considerable strike force....

getz · 08-12-2009 11:08am

one thing is that if you are going to be invaded ,you would have a good chance of finding out about it before it happens,mount gabriel,radar station,near cork ,is ok, that is when its isent being bombed by the INLA ,this is a idea,do you think it may be the INLA who intend to invade ?they start first bombing road bridges shooting police ,then take over the republic,thats if they dont get stuck inthe traffic jams in dublin

twinytwo · 08-12-2009 11:33am

getz wrote: »

lets see NATO,members,albania,belgium,bulgaria,canada,croatia,check rep denmark,estonia france,germany,greece,hungary,icland,italy,latvia,lithuania,luxenbourg,netherlands,norway,poland,portugal,romania,slavakia,slovenia,spain,turkey,united kingdom,united states .thats 28 members,now where is ireland ?not there,sorry lads if invaded you are f...

`

if it got the point if wew actually got invaded then it would be a fair assumption to say that all the other major forces in europe had been removed and a few planes/boats would achieve diddely squat.... why is this thread still here

Manic Moran · 08-12-2009 1:11pm

Why? Why couldn't the amphibious assault come from the West Coast, doing an end run around NATO? Plus, the assaulting force would probably be small enough that a capable defence force within theoretical grasp of Irish capabilities to support could have a decent chance of dealing with it.

NTM

concussion · 08-12-2009 1:31pm

mrmanire wrote: »

The only alternative would thus be the aircraft of USAFE and their combat aircraft are located within Britain and Germany. If Britain was reluctant to utilise force to protect Ireland on it's own; it would thus be reluctant to allow the US (or any other power) to use it's bases and airspace to launch any form of operation. An operation from Germany would be impracticable even using refuelling aircraft as they would have to fly around Britain.

USAFE could easily reach Ireland from Germany, even going around the UK.

Fratton Fred · 08-12-2009 1:32pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why? Why couldn't the amphibious assault come from the West Coast, doing an end run around NATO? Plus, the assaulting force would probably be small enough that a capable defence force within theoretical grasp of Irish capabilities to support could have a decent chance of dealing with it.

NTM

An invading force would arrive at the first road junction and get hopelessly confused by the road signs, give up an go home!!

Steyr · 08-12-2009 2:15pm

concussion wrote: »

USAFE could easily reach Ireland from Germany, even going around the UK.

Why come from Germany when you have F-15E "Mudhens" at RAF Lakenheath and a whole tanker fleet for them at RAF Mildenhall..

Steyr · 08-12-2009 2:16pm

hk wrote: »

There is an aircraft carrier stationed off the west coast most of the time, it sometimes is based in the shannon estuary aswell.

LE Eithne, Flagship NS and the finest aircraft carrier that Ireland owns

Read up on LE Eithne, she used to Carry a Dauphin but that was a long long time ago, and she is not an Aircraft Carrier.

Steyr · 08-12-2009 2:19pm

mrmanire wrote: »

This would have to be done by Naval means (once again the mythical aircraft carrier) which would most likely would not be stationed anywhere near.

Google the US Navy Atlantic Fleet.

chem · 08-12-2009 2:21pm

years ago, when I was a kid, I would visit my relations in Kildare town over the summer. I used to love going to the army camp there and have a look around. Security was not an issue there. We used to play on the anti aircraft guns:eek:

I remember seeing a radar dome on the site and was always wondering what hi tec wonderous devise was in it. One day I spotted a man heading to the dome with a wheelbarrow. I hid and waited for him to open the doors to the dome. I couldnt wait to see the radar dish. He opened both doors wide. I watched. He then went inside and filled his barrow with turf:eek:

The bloody thing was full of turf!! Kind of ruined my childhood dreams of the Irish army that day:(

mrmanire · 08-12-2009 2:23pm

Steyr wrote: »

Google the US Navy Atlantic Fleet.

The US Navy can't and doesn't operate all six carriers in the Atlantic 24/7. They would be in refit, training, operations more important than off coast of Ireland etc. The US Navy calls the Atlantic Fleet; Fleet Forces Command now anyways. Google that.

Fratton Fred · 08-12-2009 3:17pm

This reminds me of the book Phoenix Squadron by Rowland White

HMS Ark Royal was the most powerful warship the Royal Navy had ever put to sea. 50,000 tons of British Sovereign Territory - a floating airfield that was home to 2700 men, a stockpile of nuclear weapons, and the most modern, capable air force in Europe. But by the early seventies, Ark Royal was in the twilight of her career. Only kept in service to help face down the Cold War threat from the powerful Soviet Navy, it seemed Ark would play no further part on the world's stage.Then, in January 1972, intelligence reached Whitehall that British Honduras - now Belize - was threatened with imminent invasion. To defend the colony Britain's response had to be immediate and unequivocal. And Ark Royal offered the only effective means of preventing the little Central American country being overrun by battle-hardened, US-trained Guatemalan paratroops. But to do so the old carrier would first have to endure a destructive, high-speed 1500 mile dash across the Atlantic towards the Gulf of Mexico. Only then would it be possible to execute an audacious, record-breaking plan to launch a pair of Buccaneers on an extraordinary and unprecedented long-range mission. It was an operation loaded with difficulty and danger.Drawing on many hours of interviews with the participants and previously unseen, classified documents here and abroad, Rowland White, bestselling author of "Vulcan 607" has pieced together this remarkable episode for the first time. And has brought to life a unique, unfamiliar and thrilling piece of post-war British military history: the world of the Fleet Air Arm's last Top Guns.

RMD · 08-12-2009 3:34pm

To ever launch an attack on Ireland would be extremely stupid. We have very little resources of use and the fact is, considering how close we are to Britain any country other than Britain that attacked us would have to put up with at least the British navy once they try to export Irish resources.

There's a lot of countries on Al-Qaedas list before Ireland, you sound seriously paranoid ShotgunPaddy of some invasion or attack on Ireland. No country inside the EU would attack us, and any country that did attack us would have to go up against the vast majority of EU countries, but they'd also lose out on all trade with the EU. Attacking Ireland, would be ridiculous.

concussion · 08-12-2009 3:37pm

Steyr wrote: »

Why come from Germany when you have F-15E "Mudhens" at RAF Lakenheath and a whole tanker fleet for them at RAF Mildenhall..

That was a response to mrmans assertion that if the BA grounded the UK based USAF units the German based units wouldn't be able to reach Ireland. Which is incorrect.

McArmalite · 08-12-2009 3:58pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Icelandic navy no more ran the Royal navy out of Iceland than the IRA did the British Army out of Londonderry.

British trawlers carried on fishing up there just like the Union Flag flies over Stormont.

God save our Gracious Queen........:D

And the 100th brit this year wasn't whacked in Afghanistan yesterday... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

McArmalite · 08-12-2009 4:00pm

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Given Ireland's lack of adequate naval and air defence, should we not look at partnering with another European state? Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation but what about the French. We already cooperate closely with French forces in Chad. Should we ask the French to station an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary and share the running costs?

Share your thoughts.

I'll tell you one thing, for a daft post it's run 6 pages in 2 days, not bad going Paddy.

OS119 · 08-12-2009 4:15pm

RMD wrote: »

...To ever launch an attack on Ireland would be extremely stupid...

not so. there are no sane reasons for wanting to occupy Ireland, but for anyone with a serious interest in securing (or denying) the Sea Lanes of Communication between the US and Europe - the arteries of NATO - access to a nice long runway and a fuel tank farm on Ireland's west or south-west coast is, if not a prerequasite, then a very, very attractive idea.

the international politics of it are irrelevent, and a truely neutral Ireland that had thought about the situation would know that: if a non-NATO power wished to seize such a facility they would only be doing so as a part of, or prelude to, a war with NATO anyway, and if NATO siezed it, there'd be no point complaining to the UN or EU, because NATO members can veto the UN, and if an 'unnamed non-NATO' power had the will and capablity to act against Ireland, those few EU states not in NATO would both be unlikely to be worrying about Ireland and probably sending their NATO membership applications off by email!

chem · 08-12-2009 4:48pm

Its a well known fact, that during the cold war. All sides agreed in the event of an all out, nuclear war, Ireland was to be used to calibrate the first nuclear missiles fired by all sides.

concussion · 08-12-2009 4:54pm

Never heard that, do you have a source?

ShotgunPaddy · 08-12-2009 5:08pm

OS119 wrote: »

not so. there are no sane reasons for wanting to occupy Ireland, but for anyone with a serious interest in securing (or denying) the Sea Lanes of Communication between the US and Europe - the arteries of NATO - access to a nice long runway and a fuel tank farm on Ireland's west or south-west coast is, if not a prerequasite, then a very, very attractive idea.

This is exactly the logic behind Britain's decision to tighten it's grip on the country from 1800 onwards. It was terrified at the prospect of hostile European powers using Ireland as a launch pad to invade Britain and/or cut off the sea lanes to the Empire. The same strategic danger exits today. The Chinese or the Russians could cut off Europe from the US using Ireland as a floating air craft carrier.

Fratton Fred · 08-12-2009 5:36pm

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

This is exactly the logic behind Britain's decision to tighten it's grip on the country from 1800 onwards. It was terrified at the prospect of hostile European powers using Ireland as a launch pad to invade Britain and/or cut off the sea lanes to the Empire. The same strategic danger exits today. The Chinese or the Russians could cut off Europe from the US using Ireland as a floating air craft carrier.

seeing as Irish "Rebels" sided with the Spanish, French and Germans all at the time Britain was at war with those countries, I would say that there is a pretty good reason for being concerned.

concussion · 08-12-2009 6:05pm

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

. The Chinese or the Russians could cut off Europe from the US using Ireland as a floating air craft carrier.

You do realise that Ireland doesn't float don't you? While there is merit in separating the US from Europe, there isn't much chance of Russia or China getting enough aircraft to Ireland with the rest of NATO having a whack at them.

ShotgunPaddy · 08-12-2009 6:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

seeing as Irish "Rebels" sided with the Spanish, French and Germans all at the time Britain was at war with those countries, I would say that there is a pretty good reason for being concerned.

This is off topic but I will respond anyway. Britain made the mistake of ensuring Anglo Irish hegemony in Ireland. This was a tactical mistake as the Anglo Irish were a minority and only made up 20% of the population and were mostly concentrated in the North.

History has shown that political and military strategies that rely on suppression of majority ethnic groups are ultimately doomed to failure because the repressive measures required to ensure control of the population are expensive and generate further widespread unrest. We can see this in Afghanistan where Nato forces have failed to suppress the Taliban insurgency which is primarily supported by the Pashtuns who are the largest ethnic group in the area.

In hind site the British should have cut a deal with the native Irish to ensure their loyalty and cooperation. However this would have meant removing the Anglo Irish from their privileged position and breaking the close cultural and ethnic ties between the British and Anglo Irish. Tribes always support their own first and Britain was no exception.

ShotgunPaddy · 08-12-2009 6:24pm

concussion wrote: »

You do realise that Ireland doesn't float don't you? While there is merit in separating the US from Europe, there isn't much chance of Russia or China getting enough aircraft to Ireland with the rest of NATO having a whack at them.

Didn't Russia have plans to invade Britain during the cold war as part of a pincer movement on Europe?

troubleshooter · 08-12-2009 6:47pm

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Didn't Russia have plans to invade Britain during the cold war as part of a pincer movement on Europe?

Yes, Nato generals have stated Ireland is an air corridor to Europes western flank, hence why the USSR gave money/weapons to the IRA in the 70s and hoped to destabalise the Republic as an ideal with a Sinn Fein cuban style govt in charge of a united Ireland.

Ireland will always be of strategic importance.

ShotgunPaddy · 08-12-2009 6:48pm

I don't think we can ignore the fact that Irish territorial waters are defenceless against submarine attack. A rogue Islamic state could position a submarine with medium range ballistic missiles capable of hitting European cities off the west coast of Ireland. What are the chances of Nato forces detecting and distroying it in time. Very slight. We should at least ensure that the Irish navy has some sort of anti submarine capability.

Manic Moran · 08-12-2009 6:50pm

McArmalite wrote: »

I'll tell you one thing, for a daft post it's run 6 pages in 2 days, not bad going Paddy.

Actually, I've got half a mind to 'Sticky' it. Even with the WM forum, there's one of these pretty routinely, I wonder if there's some consideration to simply chucking this up here and say 'If you think Ireland is under-defended, post in here'

While there is merit in separating the US from Europe, there isn't much chance of Russia or China getting enough aircraft to Ireland with the rest of NATO having a whack at them.

But where? How many aircraft would NATO have to spare to defend Ireland from a flank attack when everything in the Red Army's arsenal is blowing at best speed to Warsaw?

NTM

troubleshooter · 08-12-2009 6:50pm

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

I don't think we can ignore the fact that Irish territorial waters are defenceless against submarine attack. A rogue Islamic state could position a submarine with medium range ballistic missiles capable of hitting European cities off the west coast of Ireland. What are the chances of Nato forces detecting and distroying it in time. Very slight. We should at least ensure that the Irish navy has some sort of anti submarine capability.

Now I know your a wind up

concussion · 08-12-2009 7:09pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

But where? How many aircraft would NATO have to spare to defend Ireland from a flank attack when everything in the Red Army's arsenal is blowing at best speed to Warsaw?

NTM

I thought we were dealing with a foreign power invading Ireland (due to the inclusion of China as a possible belligerant power), not Russia taking over Europe. Quite rightly, if the Russians were coming in from the East, things would be a bit sticky.

mrmanire · 08-12-2009 7:39pm

troubleshooter wrote: »

Now I know your a wind up

A windup but a funny windup at that.

What would it take to give us NATO style capabilities (fighter jets, modern naval warfare capable, etc)? It would probably take quadrupling the defence budget to maintain such infrastructure. This of course discounts the lack of 50 years capital expenditure to build up such infrastructure. Thus, no fighter planes or shiny missile launching Naval ships for us any time soon.

McArmalite wrote: »

And the 100th brit this year wasn't whacked in Afghanistan yesterday... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not very nice...
Brit = Person, Whacked = Killed.

chem · 08-12-2009 7:53pm

So why dont we face the fact our army is useless against attack, and go like the Swiss militia? Spend the money that the army get at present on upgrading our hardware and after that every man from 18-50 is trained and ready for call up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army

mrmanire · 08-12-2009 7:55pm

chem wrote: »

So why dont we face the fact our army is useless against attack, and go like the Swiss militia? Spend the money that the army get at present on upgrading our hardware and after that every man from 18-60 is trained and ready for call up?

Would certainly keep us out of the pub

Poccington · 08-12-2009 9:32pm

I love this thread.

Poccington · 08-12-2009 9:33pm

McArm and Fred, cop on.

OS119 · 08-12-2009 9:45pm

concussion wrote: »

I thought we were dealing with a foreign power invading Ireland (due to the inclusion of China as a possible belligerant power), not Russia taking over Europe. Quite rightly, if the Russians were coming in from the East, things would be a bit sticky.

i would suggest that the only 'realistic' scenario in which Irish territorial integrity is threatened is one in which controlling/denying the Atlantic is critical to either side in a much larger conflict - the only likely non-NATO power for whom closing the Atlantic to NATO shipping (or at least putting a dent in it) would be a requirement for a successful campaign is Russia.

NATO currently has an airpower 'ring' around the north Atlantic, (Greenland, Icelad, Norway, Faroes, Scotland, Bay of Biscay, Portugal, Azores, Bermuda and the Continental US and Canada) precisely because the Atlantic SLOC's are the be-all and end-all of NATO - a runway on the west/south-west coast of Ireland would a nice addition to that ring, or conversely would punch a hole in it. its for that reason that Ireland - purely by dint of its geographic position - is of interest to anyone who needs to control the Atlantic.

concussion · 08-12-2009 10:38pm

Don't forget the sonar belts!

Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

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