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Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well they didn't chip in when the Icelandics ran you home in the Cod War

    The Icelandic navy no more ran the Royal navy out of Iceland than the IRA did the British Army out of Londonderry.

    British trawlers carried on fishing up there just like the Union Flag flies over Stormont. ;)

    God save our Gracious Queen........:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Mousey- wrote: »
    like any country in the first world nowadays.....their would be world wide outcry if we were invaded....and eventually nato or the un would but in and nag or fight the invader away (depending on which)
    lets see NATO,members,albania,belgium,bulgaria,canada,croatia,check rep denmark,estonia france,germany,greece,hungary,icland,italy,latvia,lithuania,luxenbourg,netherlands,norway,poland,portugal,romania,slavakia,slovenia,spain,turkey,united kingdom,united states .thats 28 members,now where is ireland ?not there,sorry lads if invaded you are f...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    By the way, speaking of aircraft carriers on lakes, USS Wolverine and USS Sable spent all of WWII on lakes.

    98339.jpg

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 160 ✭✭MetalDawg


    The US Navy would never send an aircraft carrier up the Shannon Estuary. Its too close to Limerick.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Given Ireland's lack of adequate naval and air defence, should we not look at partnering with another European state? Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation but what about the French. We already cooperate closely with French forces in Chad. Should we ask the French to station an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary and share the running costs?

    Share your thoughts.

    I think thats a stupid idea.

    Imagine the state the state finances would be in if on top of all the other things we're too stupid to manage and administer we also ran a considerable strike force....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    one thing is that if you are going to be invaded ,you would have a good chance of finding out about it before it happens,mount gabriel,radar station,near cork ,is ok, that is when its isent being bombed by the INLA ,this is a idea,do you think it may be the INLA who intend to invade ?they start first bombing road bridges shooting police ,then take over the republic,thats if they dont get stuck inthe traffic jams in dublin


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    getz wrote: »
    lets see NATO,members,albania,belgium,bulgaria,canada,croatia,check rep denmark,estonia france,germany,greece,hungary,icland,italy,latvia,lithuania,luxenbourg,netherlands,norway,poland,portugal,romania,slavakia,slovenia,spain,turkey,united kingdom,united states .thats 28 members,now where is ireland ?not there,sorry lads if invaded you are f...
    `

    if it got the point if wew actually got invaded then it would be a fair assumption to say that all the other major forces in europe had been removed and a few planes/boats would achieve diddely squat.... why is this thread still here:confused:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Why? Why couldn't the amphibious assault come from the West Coast, doing an end run around NATO? Plus, the assaulting force would probably be small enough that a capable defence force within theoretical grasp of Irish capabilities to support could have a decent chance of dealing with it.

    NTM


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    mrmanire wrote: »
    The only alternative would thus be the aircraft of USAFE and their combat aircraft are located within Britain and Germany. If Britain was reluctant to utilise force to protect Ireland on it's own; it would thus be reluctant to allow the US (or any other power) to use it's bases and airspace to launch any form of operation. An operation from Germany would be impracticable even using refuelling aircraft as they would have to fly around Britain.

    USAFE could easily reach Ireland from Germany, even going around the UK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Why? Why couldn't the amphibious assault come from the West Coast, doing an end run around NATO? Plus, the assaulting force would probably be small enough that a capable defence force within theoretical grasp of Irish capabilities to support could have a decent chance of dealing with it.

    NTM

    An invading force would arrive at the first road junction and get hopelessly confused by the road signs, give up an go home!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    concussion wrote: »
    USAFE could easily reach Ireland from Germany, even going around the UK.

    Why come from Germany when you have F-15E "Mudhens" at RAF Lakenheath and a whole tanker fleet for them at RAF Mildenhall..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    hk wrote: »
    There is an aircraft carrier stationed off the west coast most of the time, it sometimes is based in the shannon estuary aswell.

    LE Eithne, Flagship NS and the finest aircraft carrier that Ireland owns

    Read up on LE Eithne, she used to Carry a Dauphin but that was a long long time ago, and she is not an Aircraft Carrier.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    mrmanire wrote: »
    This would have to be done by Naval means (once again the mythical aircraft carrier) which would most likely would not be stationed anywhere near.


    Google the US Navy Atlantic Fleet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭chem


    years ago, when I was a kid, I would visit my relations in Kildare town over the summer. I used to love going to the army camp there and have a look around. Security was not an issue there. We used to play on the anti aircraft guns:eek:

    I remember seeing a radar dome on the site and was always wondering what hi tec wonderous devise was in it. One day I spotted a man heading to the dome with a wheelbarrow. I hid and waited for him to open the doors to the dome. I couldnt wait to see the radar dish. He opened both doors wide. I watched. He then went inside and filled his barrow with turf:eek:

    The bloody thing was full of turf!! Kind of ruined my childhood dreams of the Irish army that day:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭mrmanire


    Steyr wrote: »
    Google the US Navy Atlantic Fleet.

    The US Navy can't and doesn't operate all six carriers in the Atlantic 24/7. They would be in refit, training, operations more important than off coast of Ireland etc. The US Navy calls the Atlantic Fleet; Fleet Forces Command now anyways. Google that. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    This reminds me of the book Phoenix Squadron by Rowland White
    HMS Ark Royal was the most powerful warship the Royal Navy had ever put to sea. 50,000 tons of British Sovereign Territory - a floating airfield that was home to 2700 men, a stockpile of nuclear weapons, and the most modern, capable air force in Europe. But by the early seventies, Ark Royal was in the twilight of her career. Only kept in service to help face down the Cold War threat from the powerful Soviet Navy, it seemed Ark would play no further part on the world's stage.Then, in January 1972, intelligence reached Whitehall that British Honduras - now Belize - was threatened with imminent invasion. To defend the colony Britain's response had to be immediate and unequivocal. And Ark Royal offered the only effective means of preventing the little Central American country being overrun by battle-hardened, US-trained Guatemalan paratroops. But to do so the old carrier would first have to endure a destructive, high-speed 1500 mile dash across the Atlantic towards the Gulf of Mexico. Only then would it be possible to execute an audacious, record-breaking plan to launch a pair of Buccaneers on an extraordinary and unprecedented long-range mission. It was an operation loaded with difficulty and danger.Drawing on many hours of interviews with the participants and previously unseen, classified documents here and abroad, Rowland White, bestselling author of "Vulcan 607" has pieced together this remarkable episode for the first time. And has brought to life a unique, unfamiliar and thrilling piece of post-war British military history: the world of the Fleet Air Arm's last Top Guns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    To ever launch an attack on Ireland would be extremely stupid. We have very little resources of use and the fact is, considering how close we are to Britain any country other than Britain that attacked us would have to put up with at least the British navy once they try to export Irish resources.

    There's a lot of countries on Al-Qaedas list before Ireland, you sound seriously paranoid ShotgunPaddy of some invasion or attack on Ireland. No country inside the EU would attack us, and any country that did attack us would have to go up against the vast majority of EU countries, but they'd also lose out on all trade with the EU. Attacking Ireland, would be ridiculous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Steyr wrote: »
    Why come from Germany when you have F-15E "Mudhens" at RAF Lakenheath and a whole tanker fleet for them at RAF Mildenhall..

    That was a response to mrmans assertion that if the BA grounded the UK based USAF units the German based units wouldn't be able to reach Ireland. Which is incorrect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    The Icelandic navy no more ran the Royal navy out of Iceland than the IRA did the British Army out of Londonderry.

    British trawlers carried on fishing up there just like the Union Flag flies over Stormont. ;)

    God save our Gracious Queen........:D

    And the 100th brit this year wasn't whacked in Afghanistan yesterday... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Given Ireland's lack of adequate naval and air defence, should we not look at partnering with another European state? Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation but what about the French. We already cooperate closely with French forces in Chad. Should we ask the French to station an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary and share the running costs?

    Share your thoughts.
    I'll tell you one thing, for a daft post it's run 6 pages in 2 days, not bad going Paddy. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    RMD wrote: »
    ...To ever launch an attack on Ireland would be extremely stupid...

    not so. there are no sane reasons for wanting to occupy Ireland, but for anyone with a serious interest in securing (or denying) the Sea Lanes of Communication between the US and Europe - the arteries of NATO - access to a nice long runway and a fuel tank farm on Ireland's west or south-west coast is, if not a prerequasite, then a very, very attractive idea.

    the international politics of it are irrelevent, and a truely neutral Ireland that had thought about the situation would know that: if a non-NATO power wished to seize such a facility they would only be doing so as a part of, or prelude to, a war with NATO anyway, and if NATO siezed it, there'd be no point complaining to the UN or EU, because NATO members can veto the UN, and if an 'unnamed non-NATO' power had the will and capablity to act against Ireland, those few EU states not in NATO would both be unlikely to be worrying about Ireland and probably sending their NATO membership applications off by email!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭chem


    Its a well known fact, that during the cold war. All sides agreed in the event of an all out, nuclear war, Ireland was to be used to calibrate the first nuclear missiles fired by all sides.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Never heard that, do you have a source?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭ShotgunPaddy


    OS119 wrote: »
    not so. there are no sane reasons for wanting to occupy Ireland, but for anyone with a serious interest in securing (or denying) the Sea Lanes of Communication between the US and Europe - the arteries of NATO - access to a nice long runway and a fuel tank farm on Ireland's west or south-west coast is, if not a prerequasite, then a very, very attractive idea.

    This is exactly the logic behind Britain's decision to tighten it's grip on the country from 1800 onwards. It was terrified at the prospect of hostile European powers using Ireland as a launch pad to invade Britain and/or cut off the sea lanes to the Empire. The same strategic danger exits today. The Chinese or the Russians could cut off Europe from the US using Ireland as a floating air craft carrier.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    This is exactly the logic behind Britain's decision to tighten it's grip on the country from 1800 onwards. It was terrified at the prospect of hostile European powers using Ireland as a launch pad to invade Britain and/or cut off the sea lanes to the Empire. The same strategic danger exits today. The Chinese or the Russians could cut off Europe from the US using Ireland as a floating air craft carrier.

    seeing as Irish "Rebels" sided with the Spanish, French and Germans all at the time Britain was at war with those countries, I would say that there is a pretty good reason for being concerned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    . The Chinese or the Russians could cut off Europe from the US using Ireland as a floating air craft carrier.

    You do realise that Ireland doesn't float don't you? While there is merit in separating the US from Europe, there isn't much chance of Russia or China getting enough aircraft to Ireland with the rest of NATO having a whack at them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭ShotgunPaddy


    seeing as Irish "Rebels" sided with the Spanish, French and Germans all at the time Britain was at war with those countries, I would say that there is a pretty good reason for being concerned.

    This is off topic but I will respond anyway. Britain made the mistake of ensuring Anglo Irish hegemony in Ireland. This was a tactical mistake as the Anglo Irish were a minority and only made up 20% of the population and were mostly concentrated in the North.

    History has shown that political and military strategies that rely on suppression of majority ethnic groups are ultimately doomed to failure because the repressive measures required to ensure control of the population are expensive and generate further widespread unrest. We can see this in Afghanistan where Nato forces have failed to suppress the Taliban insurgency which is primarily supported by the Pashtuns who are the largest ethnic group in the area.

    In hind site the British should have cut a deal with the native Irish to ensure their loyalty and cooperation. However this would have meant removing the Anglo Irish from their privileged position and breaking the close cultural and ethnic ties between the British and Anglo Irish. Tribes always support their own first and Britain was no exception.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭ShotgunPaddy


    concussion wrote: »
    You do realise that Ireland doesn't float don't you? While there is merit in separating the US from Europe, there isn't much chance of Russia or China getting enough aircraft to Ireland with the rest of NATO having a whack at them.

    Didn't Russia have plans to invade Britain during the cold war as part of a pincer movement on Europe?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭troubleshooter


    Didn't Russia have plans to invade Britain during the cold war as part of a pincer movement on Europe?


    Yes, Nato generals have stated Ireland is an air corridor to Europes western flank, hence why the USSR gave money/weapons to the IRA in the 70s and hoped to destabalise the Republic as an ideal with a Sinn Fein cuban style govt in charge of a united Ireland.

    Ireland will always be of strategic importance.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 66 ✭✭ShotgunPaddy


    I don't think we can ignore the fact that Irish territorial waters are defenceless against submarine attack. A rogue Islamic state could position a submarine with medium range ballistic missiles capable of hitting European cities off the west coast of Ireland. What are the chances of Nato forces detecting and distroying it in time. Very slight. We should at least ensure that the Irish navy has some sort of anti submarine capability.


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