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Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    McArmalite wrote: »
    I just stated a fact to Mr. Fratton in reply to him. It's just an actual fact, how you feel about it is up to you. Personnally I think some brits coming onto an Irish military forum continually sniping at the country deserves a responce. Fighting fire with fire etc ;):)

    I don't know why I'm engaging you in conversation, but i didn't see Fred sh1t-sh1teing on about some degenerate provo gobsh1te getting killed.

    You're just doing you're normal crappy game, trying to bring a thread down to your gutter level where your simian like intelligence can understand it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭troubleshooter


    concussion wrote: »
    The Defence Forces, on an individual level, were equipped with the same weapons as the British Army. There were also Mobile Columns in operation which were based on the Flying Columns of previous years. How were these British-organized local poachers better armed than the average Irish soldier? How many poachers were recruited? And can you answer my question to you about Ireland being the calibration point for nuclear weapons please?


    "The Defence Forces, on an individual level, were equipped with the same weapons as the British Army." Not sure if you mean now.

    ..............Not sure about that, but I stand to be corrected, are MIMIMIs , under slung grenade launchers, head mounted night vision gear, viper 2 sights etc equivilents issued as standard issue in the defence forces ?





    "Five years ago everyone had an SA80 Rifle and occasionally a Light Support Weapon. Now we have MIMIMI Light Machine Guns, and Under-Slung Grenade Launchers which give us the ability to pop things over hills rather than fire straight. It's much safer to fire from behind a rock."
    Five years ago individual soldiers were issued with Sight Unit Small Arms Triluxs, Image Intensified Common Weapon Sights and Binoculars. Now they also get Advanced Combat Optical Gun sights, Thermal Imaging Systems, Head Mounted Night Vision Systems, VIPER 2+ Thermal Imaging Weapon Sights, and Target Locating Systems".............previously only special forces got that kind of gear.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Ideas tried in WWI

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/anti-submarine%20developments.htm

    ......Depth charges, mines, disguised boats etc were all valuable means of defeating U-boats. Some ideas were not so good. One idea that remained on paper only was to train seagulls to land on periscopes at sea thus giving away the position of a submarine! The Admiralty did, however, train sea lions to locate an underwater submarine and surface to give its position away. When the training was taken one step further - to lochs in Scotland - the sea lions escaped, presumably to the rich fishing grounds of the Atlantic. Such was the plight of Britain due to the success of U-boats, that the Admiralty even used a psychic lady to try to locate them in the North Sea. The plan failed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Troubleshooter - I'm referring to the Second World War.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,282 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    In a flash of lightning and thunder, the Great God Moderator appears out of nowhere, smites McArmalite and gatecrash with his mighty ban-hammer, then vanishes as quickly as he had appeared, leaving but smoking holes where they used to stand.

    Still, they shall both respawn in time. Wiser, or not, we shall yet see.

    (McArmalite in two weeks, banned for off-topic provocation and sh!t-stirring, gatecrash in one, banned for mild back-seat modding and impoliteness. (If you don't care about an infraction, then let's see how you care about a ban))

    NTM


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,282 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Yes, there's a Walter Mitty Forum for silliness like this, but the topic seems to keep coming up. Thus, this thread has been 'stickified' as the first pont of call for any complaints about the lack of Ireland's military capability, any other threads started on the subject will either be merged into this one, or moved to Walter Mitty.

    The more creative your solution for the re-instatement of Ireland into a position of 'World Military Power', the better.

    NTM


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    cats now that is a idea ,cats have been used in both world wars for dectecting poison gass and carrying messages,i found this [and other things]by looking up how pussy won the war


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Cats are no-go in my opinion. They only look out for number 1 (which is why I like them, there's no pretensions that they like you, they only put up with you). In a chemical warfare situation I guarantee a cat would hold it's breath and watch you die rather than let you know.

    The real solution to help Ireland attain a superpower status is bad weather. We've lots of it and it will only be a matter of time before someone creates a system of generating electricity from fog, hail, sleet and rain. When fossil fuels run out, we will come out on top and have nations such as the US, Russia and China begging us for our surplus!


    Mu hahahahahahahaha


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    If anyone has any CS gas lying around, I have my sisters cat coming to stay for a few days and we could test the theory?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    concussion wrote: »
    ...The Defence Forces, on an individual level, were equipped with the same weapons as the British Army. There were also Mobile Columns in operation which were based on the Flying Columns of previous years....QUOTE]

    i think there's a fundamental problem with this idea of a 'comparability of weapons' in one sphere of operations meaning a comparability of leathality and capabilty in the wider spectrum of war-fighting.

    we saw this in the reaction to that awful 'documentary' about what would of happenned had the RoI invaded/liberated the north in 69/70/71/last week. lots of howls about the IA having the same personal/section/platoon/coy/bn weapons as the BA and therefore being able to give the BA a good run for its money. now, this it true on an individual level, but armies don't fight on an individual level: they fight on an organisational level, they attack each others organisation (command and control) and seek to deny them the things that make them an army (Artillery, Signals, Logistic Support etc...), rather than just being a gang of cold blokes with rifles sat in a hedge. the 'Battle of Newry' would not have been won or lost because of the individual skills and Bn level weapons of X or Y bn, but because one side was able - through the medium of AirPower - to deny the other side its Artillery, its re-supply, its mobility and then, when its on its own and running out of ammunition, request its surrender or kill it.

    in the early 1920's the two sides met with relatively similar forces; equivalently armed individual soldiers formed into groups with little in the way of outside support - Artillery, Bn weapons, Air recconaisance, Signals/Electronic Warfare etc - and whoever achieved surprise and fire disipline won each engagement, and if they were able to make a clean/rapid get-a-way they just disappear and the battle/engagement was over. however, i would suggest that this model no longer applies. once a component of a 'full-spectrum' force becomes engaged, its support arms - specificly ISTAR - come into play much quicker (almost instantly?) to bring other assets - the force multipliers - to bear. that means almost no chance of a clean get-a-way. added to which the profusion of ISTAR assets and the speed at which their product is promulgated to forces on the ground means that the logistics behind the Flying Collumns can no longer be acheived in the 'safe areas' that they once were.

    anyone fancy the odds on re-fuelling a 10 vehicle collumn while there's an MQ-9 loitering around with a pair of F-16's on call, or co-ordinating a mortar attack on an enemy position while a Nimrod R1/RC-135 floats about and the Mortar Locating Radars are turning with a battery of AS90's dialed in?

    if a 'full-spectrum' force isn't that fussed about killing civilians as well as insurgents then insurgency (flying collumns) is just an interesting way of killing yourself, and while terrorism can work in a fully occupied society, its of no use whatsoever when an enemy has no interest in occupying large tracts of territory and controlling great swathes of the population.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    If anyone has any CS gas lying around, I have my sisters cat coming to stay for a few days and we could test the theory?

    Tear-gas a pussy? ouch! :D

    ....

    poor cat - dont look at me like that, what'd you think i meant!? :eek:

    seriously though, if the invasion beats our albatross, sealion, porpoise and dolphin net

    we still have the badgers, rabbits and hares ...

    we could train our badgers, hares and rabbits to dig under the enemy campsites and then used trained jack russels (incredibly faithful - sic "patriotic") to carry mine explosives down into the tunnel complex and blow the ar$es out from under the rooskies, or whoever has been silly enough to invade our great nation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    if we try being serious,who would you think who would want to invade ireland ? the UK ? i do not think so,the only enemy i could envisage would be from a republican internal one, or one that may never except a united ireland under any terms,internal policing may be ireland future biggest problem,


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    OS119 - I only used the individual soldier as I highly doubt that the 'locally recruited poacher' alluded to in the post would have had arty, mortars etc on call in case the Germans invaded. It was a response to the assertion that these locals were better armed that the army.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31 Husqvarna


    chem wrote: »
    The only way we would win an invation, is buy arming the nation and using flying colum tatics. Hit hard and run away. No point in permanent fortifications here! As the UK recruited local pouchers(local knowalage of the area)
    to wage a local war against a german attack. If they had invaded. The locual recruites had more advance weapons at the time,then the regular army at the time........


    If your thoughts on strategic defence are as enlightened as your spelling I think you should put yourself forward for a seat on the Council of Defence. Bravo old boy!

    Now I am off to find me a poucher with local knowalage of my area.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    getz wrote: »
    if we try being serious,who would you think who would want to invade ireland ? the UK ? i do not think so,the only enemy i could envisage would be from a republican internal one, or one that may never except a united ireland under any terms,internal policing may be ireland future biggest problem,

    'RAF Shannon' - or the denial of such to enhance/deny ASW, AShW and AWACS operations over the north Atlantic, during, or as a prelude to, war. such an op would probably take the airfield, and secure a corridor to the sea to allow re-supply - apart from that it'd probably be very low key and as 'inoffensive' as possible...

    no natural resources to grab, no desire for terratorial/population gain - the UK already has Scotland, it doesn't need another wet and windy country full of gingers!

    thats it, pure geography.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    OS119 wrote: »
    'RAF Shannon' - or the denial of such to enhance/deny ASW, AShW and AWACS operations over the north Atlantic, during, or as a prelude to, war. such an op would probably take the airfield, and secure a corridor to the sea to allow re-supply - apart from that it'd probably be very low key and as 'in offensive' as possible...

    no natural resources to grab, no desire for terratorial/population gain - the UK already has Scotland, it doesn't need another wet and windy country full of gingers!

    thats it, pure geography.
    they could be after the guinness


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    getz wrote: »
    they could be after the guinness

    Yeah, they could try.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Yeah, they could try.....
    anyone who wanted to invade would just come over on irish ferries,after all they are reg in foreign country,or they could send in MOLES [another well known war animal] and out FOX everybody.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    getz wrote: »
    anyone who wanted to invade would just come over on irish ferries,after all they are reg in foreign country,or they could send in MOLES [another well known war animal] and out FOX everybody.


    I don't care how they get here, or what they bring with them.


    Stealing our Guinness is crossing the line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭Evd-Burner


    man this is one long thread...

    I can remember a thread like this around a year ago...

    I think after all the discussion had died down it was decided that we would need a much better radar system and intercepting ground to air missiles.

    Here's a good question if in the morning there was 500million to spend on an air defence system what would you buy and why?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    if we promise to buy only Irish brewed Guinness and charge no duty on it in pubs/offies to get sales up, could we have basing rights at Shannon?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    OS119 wrote: »
    if we promise to buy only Irish brewed Guinness and charge no duty on it in pubs/offies to get sales up, could we have basing rights at Shannon?

    It depends on who 'we' are, and what you plan to base there.

    But I tells ya boy, you're goin the right way about it!


    Small condition - you would have to allow for a suply of, say 2 pints a day ration, for every man, woman and child in the country. Family groups can of course accumulate pints for weekends.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    "You can take our lives, but you will never TAKE OUR GUINNESS"

    just to be sensible for a second, surely if an invading force were planning on using Ireland as a landing ground for a war on Europe, even if every man, woman and child in Ireland would had their own arsenal on a par with the nutters at Waco, they still wouldn't have a chance. Anyone about to take on the British, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and French military would either need a military machine on par with India, Russia or China, or at least balls the size of rockall.

    Unless of course they soften the place up with a few ICBMs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Evd-Burner wrote: »
    man this is one long thread...

    I can remember a thread like this around a year ago...

    I think after all the discussion had died down it was decided that we would need a much better radar system and intercepting ground to air missiles.

    Here's a good question if in the morning there was 500million to spend on an air defence system what would you buy and why?

    Since last year we have bought several more powerful radars, more RBS 70 launchers and upgraded missiles. Who'd a thunk it? :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭Evd-Burner


    What kind of range and speed are we talking about here...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Small condition - you would have to allow for a suply of, say 2 pints a day ration, for every man, woman and child in the country. Family groups can of course accumulate pints for weekends.

    we'd all be weeing black - then dying in a week!

    how about a straight forward mutual defence treaty - we guarentee(spelling?) Irish Territorial integrity, and Ireland allows the basing of RAF and RN aircraft at RAF Shannon to help secure the eastern Atlantic?

    that would probably mean infrastructure for, but probably not a permament force of Nimrods, E-3D AWACS, Typhoon FGR4 and the occasional Tornado GR4 for exercises...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I don't know why the irish and british air forces don't have some sort of cooperation agreement in place.

    Ireland buys itself a handful of typhoons (Maybe at a discount based on the crazy number the RAF have bought) and the RAF train the pilots and ground crew and even carry out major services in the UK? Lets face it, the pilots would only need to catch the HSS from Dun Laoghaire, they could be home every weekend :)

    It means Ireland gets a respectable air force at a lower cost and the UK effectively has a hole plugged on it's western flank and could possibly save itself a few quid in doing so.

    I'm sure plenty of people would cry over the loss of Irish "Neutrality" but the sight of a few Tri Coloured Typhoons would soon get over that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Evd-Burner wrote: »
    What kind of range and speed are we talking about here...

    7 x Giraffe Radar mounted on Hagglunds Bv206 Vikings - 50 km range

    6 x RBS 70 launchers
    40 x Mk 2 Missiles (updated from the Mk 1 which were previously bought)
    5 x Clip on Night Device (COND)

    along with a simulator, Kongsberg radios and other ancilliaries. Total €3 million - a great deal.

    Girafe_isskleistas.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Evd-Burner wrote: »
    What kind of range and speed are we talking about here...

    low to medium level (15,000ft or so), range of 8km and mach 2.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Thanks OS, was in a hurry earlier. The Mk 2 offers 100% increase in range over the Mk1 (note, not 100% range increase) and a shaped charge warhead for armour pentration.

    The big increase is in the radar systems though, the old system had a range of 40 km and while 50 km does not seem like a huge increase, the fact that we now have multiple systems means we can vastly extend our coverage. With all 7 systems lined up you could cover a line 700 km long (discounting radar shadow and not including overlap).
    Each system can cover 8000 square kilometers (as a comparison, Munster is ~24,000 square kilometers) so that's a fair chunk of territory covered using multiple systems instead of a single unit.


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