Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

ShotgunPaddy

[Moderator's Note:

Yes, there's a Walter Mitty Forum for silliness like this, but the topic seems to keep coming up. Thus, this thread has been 'stickified' as the first pont of call for any complaints about the lack of Ireland's military capability, any other threads started on the subject will either be merged into this one, or moved to Walter Mitty.

The more creative your solution for the re-instatement of Ireland into a position of 'World Military Power', the better.

NTM ]

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Given Ireland's lack of adequate naval and air defence, should we not look at partnering with another European state? Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation but what about the French. We already cooperate closely with French forces in Chad. Should we ask the French to station an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary and share the running costs?

Share your thoughts.

jhegarty

To defend from whom ?

ShotgunPaddy

jhegarty wrote: »

To defend from whom ?

The Russians. Why do other European countries have navies and air-forces? Ireland is a big gaping hole in the European defence perimeter.

Mr Benevolent

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

The Russians. Why do other European countries have navies and air-forces? Ireland is a big gaping hole in the European defence perimeter.

It's on the wrong side of Europe for that. Besides, the UK can do our defending for us. The level of military expenditure you're talking about would cripple our budget and jack up taxes. Do you really want to pay for something so utterly useless to our economy? I don't. Our armed forces are fine for our needs.

kowloon

jhegarty wrote: »

To defend from whom ?

Spanish fishermen.

Ry

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

The Russians. Why do other European countries have navies and air-forces? Ireland is a big gaping hole in the European defence perimeter.

Yeh the Russians are just dying to kick some Irish ass. :rolleyes:

ShotgunPaddy

Confab wrote: »

It's on the wrong side of Europe for that. Besides, the UK can do our defending for us. The level of military expenditure you're talking about would cripple our budget and jack up taxes. Do you really want to pay for something so utterly useless to our economy? I don't. Our armed forces are fine for our needs.

What about an Al-Qaeda suicide attack on international air traffic at Shannon or Dublin?

Zambia

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Given Ireland's lack of adequate naval and air defence, should we not look at partnering with another European state?

I think every time it is ever hinted at military ties to Europe, the irish electorate crap themselves.

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation

They are actually the closest ally we have.

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Should we ask the French to station an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary and share the running costs?

Unless its an Airfix one Ireland cant afford to share the costs even if the french have a spare one they can afford to have sitting in the Shannon est.

If you wanted this ask the Yanks to build a Airforce base. They can use the rubble of Irish Neutrality to lay the foundation of the runway.

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Share your thoughts.

Ireland cant afford air defence. It would be nice but the piggy bank is empty.

If cash was not an Issue sure a few Jets to protect the skies would be cool.

In the case of terrorist attacks by plane. Well after 9/11 the British protected our airspace.

ShotgunPaddy

Zambia232 wrote: »

I think every time it is ever hinted at military ties to Europe, the irish electorate crap themselves.


They are actually the closest ally we have.


Unless its an Airfix one Ireland cant afford to share the costs even if the french have a spare one they can afford to have sitting in the Shannon est.

If you wanted this ask the Yanks to build a Airforce base. They can use the rubble of Irish Neutrality to lay the foundation of the runway.


Ireland cant afford air defence. It would be nice but the piggy bank is empty.

If cash was not an Issue sure a few Jets to protect the skies would be cool.

In the case of terrorist attacks by plane. Well after 9/11 the British protected our airspace.

The British cannot be trusted. They have always put their own strategic national and economic interests first.

Yes, cash is an issue. Perhaps we could take advantage of any Euro Navy developments and station a squadron off our coasts.

Small countries need alliances. The Irish electorate need to be educated about the potential threats.

Other European nations might object if we allowed American bases on Irish soil but that is still an option. I would have no objections.

OS119

every nation (with an IQ above the shoe size of its head of state) puts its own strategic interests first, second and third.

no european nation would object to US /NATO air defence and Anti-Submarine/Maritime patrol assets operating from the south west coast - it would make NATO's western flank far more secure against interdiction of the Sea Lines of Communication.

jhegarty

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

What about an Al-Qaeda suicide attack on international air traffic at Shannon or Dublin?

You don't stop an Al-Qaeda attach with an aircraft carrier.

They managed to attach successfully London and New York. Nothing we could manage would even come close to the defence of the UK/USA.

getz

people are talking as if ireland has a option,the republic has sold its soul for a few euros,any defence decisions will be made in brussels,already a quick response unit has been set up,irelands defence up to now has been covered [without the irish paying into it] by NATO ,

force eleven

jhegarty wrote: »

To defend from whom ?

Barroso :rolleyes:

Lol. What an idea. I wonder how long before this goes to Mr. Mitty's forum?

In all seriousness, the UK is not the enemy she used to be. Besides, given our position between the UK and USA, I'd say 1 of those 2 would come and help if we needed it.

Fratton Fred

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

The British cannot be trusted. They have always put their own strategic national and economic interests first.

Regardless of whether or not Britain can be trusted, Ireland is in Britain's strategic interests. A nasty communist or Islamist regime in Ireland is a direct threat to the UK, so Britain is never going to stand by and watch Ireland get taken over.

I'm not sure what the big deal is though, an aggresive invader surely can't **** up the economy like Fianna fail did.

Dacian

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

What about an Al-Qaeda suicide attack on international air traffic at Shannon or Dublin?

Most International Air Traffic is ABOVE Ireland. The current media savvy terrorist would go for a much more high profuile target than Ireland.

Omnipresence

we need energy security
we need more patrols to protect our waters (fishing drugs etc)

long before we need anything else

Tabnabs

Sod the cheating French, they'd probably steal the Shannon!

We should ask politely for the JFK and Corporal O'Dea could wax lyrical how he is putting the defence of his constituents as his number one priority!

diverdriver

To defend from whom ?

Britain was, and in many respects still is a hostile nation

There's you answer, according to Shotgun Paddy to defend us from the British. hahahahahahaha,:rolleyes:

Paddy this is 2009 not 1509.:( The British really don't want us back, they don't particularly want NI either but are stuck with it and lots of them would like to offload Scotland. In historical terms the English worried about Ireland been taken over by the French or Spanish thus presenting a danger to England itself. Ireland was a mere pawn in an international power struggle.

Besides, we really don't need defending from anyone anymore, Russia, Al Qaeda or the aliens from the planet Zarg. We certainly wouldn't get any help from the French.

Tabnabs

Omnipresence wrote: »

we need energy security

Has to Wiki this to find out what on earth it is? Can you elaborate on how the IDF should secure our energy needs?

ex_infantry man

Dyflin wrote: »

Has to Wiki this to find out what on earth it is? Can you elaborate on how the IDF should secure our energy needs?

it would be something if we had nuclear power stations but we don,t!!!!!

Craigsy

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

The Russians. .

Someones been playing too much modern warfare 2 me thinks :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

diverdriver wrote: »

Besides, we really don't need defending from anyone anymore,.......... the aliens from the planet Zarg.

Are you sure, or is that just what the Lizard people want you to think :eek:

kowloon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you sure, or is that just what the Lizard people want you to think :eek:

Do not speak of the Lizard People lest we incur their wrath!

ShotgunPaddy

Maybe we should have a "European Union Naval Force Atlantic" operating out of Ireland like the "European Union Naval Force Somalia" mentioned in this artical.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/kent/8328757.stm

ShotgunPaddy

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol. What an idea. I wonder how long before this goes to Mr. Mitty's forum?

In all seriousness, the UK is not the enemy she used to be. Besides, given our position between the UK and USA, I'd say 1 of those 2 would come and help if we needed it.

They would if they could. If the UK were under attack they would protect themselves first. The USA may be too far away to react quickly enough.

ShotgunPaddy

Dacian wrote: »

Most International Air Traffic is ABOVE Ireland. The current media savvy terrorist would go for a much more high profuile target than Ireland.

What about American military traffic at Shannon? I am surprised that the Americans did not insist on air cover. Maybe they will now after GCHQ read this post.

concussion

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Maybe we should have a "European Union Naval Force Atlantic" operating out of Ireland like the "European Union Naval Force Somalia" mentioned in this artical.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/kent/8328757.stm

Good idea, lots of piracy off the Irish coast these days...

Morpheus

Dyflin wrote: »

Has to Wiki this to find out what on earth it is? Can you elaborate on how the IDF should secure our energy needs?

Well, the Israeli Defence Forces would take an awful long time to get here in an emergency, but maybe they can send The Zohan to take out the british nuclear reactors up and down their west coast :pac:

seriously, i thought this was a serious thread about support FROM the british and was halfway through the answers when i reaslised you were looking for support to PROTECT us from the british

laughable,

this thread would like a mitty stamp on its passport!

Dear lord in this day and age... i dunno, did you just climb out of the boot of marty macfly's delorien?!

Fratton Fred

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

Maybe we should have a "European Union Naval Force Atlantic" operating out of Ireland like the "European Union Naval Force Somalia" mentioned in this artical.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/kent/8328757.stm

Maybe if the ports of Berehaven, Cobh (It could be renamed Queenstown) and Lough Swilly were given to the Royal Navy they could take the job on.

That would be a good step forward for the state

There is only one country in Europe with an Atlantic coast that has trouble patrolling it's waters. Why should the countries that have spent money on their navy cover for it, especially considering the amount of EU money that country has already received.

Fratton Fred

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

They would if they could. If the UK were under attack they would protect themselves first. The USA may be too far away to react quickly enough.

attack by who?

If the UK was attacked, then the US and the rest of NATO would be obliged to chip in anyway, unless it was one of them doing the attacking, in which case, it is going to be pretty ****ing messy for Ireland anyway.

twinytwo

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

The British cannot be trusted. They have always put their own strategic national and economic interests first.

Yes, cash is an issue. Perhaps we could take advantage of any Euro Navy developments and station a squadron off our coasts.

Small countries need alliances. The Irish electorate need to be educated about the potential threats.

Other European nations might object if we allowed American bases on Irish soil but that is still an option. I would have no objections.

As would any other country.. so whats your point?

twinytwo

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

They would if they could. If the UK were under attack they would protect themselves first. The USA may be too far away to react quickly enough.

son.. you watch too many movies..russia etc isnt going to wake up tomorrow and decide to attack the west. None of the biggest countries could afford to fight each other nor would they want to.

Abd how exactly would you expect to pay for these plans and ships... i mean you do have some idea how much such an outing would cost right?

to the walter mitty with this one.

Dublin_Gunner

1. Don't the UK already defend our Air Space (some agreement / 'understanding' we have with them)?
2. The US & Britain have quite large, mobile, Atlantic fleets, and I'm pretty sure either would come to our aid should we require it.
3. Exactly who got the intelligence report stating Al Qaeda / Russians were going to launch a massive naval / air borne attack on Ireland?
4. Any attack from the East would have to come via NATO defended European air space. Not likely.
5. Any attack from the West would have to pass through NATO / USAF defended international Air Space.
6. Defending & Controlling airspace are two hugely different things.

ShotgunPaddy

concussion wrote: »

Good idea, lots of piracy off the Irish coast these days...

What about drugs?

concussion

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

What about drugs?

What about drugs? Your link dealt exclusively with piracy.


As for drugs, the most effective way of combatting drugs is with targetted boardings directed by good intelligence, not having a carrier battle group turning circles off Co. Kerry.

Nuttzz

We could build our own aircraft carriers, get all those unemployed designers back to work and Im sure we can find enough plumbers and sparkies on the dole to do the fit out, and build our own aircraft too, it would be the perfect economic stimlus package, but then again perhaps not....

Dublin_Gunner

Nuttzz wrote: »

We could build our own aircraft carriers, get all those unemployed designers back to work and Im sure we can find enough plumbers and sparkies on the dole to do the fit out, and build our own aircraft too, it would be the perfect economic stimlus package, but then again perhaps not....

Thats great and all, but exactly where would the money come from to pay them all? Or would it be a 'work for dole' type scheme? Put it on FÁS maybe?

concussion

Rememer that half-assed proposal to put RDF all along the West Coast to look for smugglers? Put people on the dole there instead!! They could sit around doing almost nothing, instead of nothing at all :pac:

b12mearse

i don think ireland would be worth invading or worth defending for that matter!

Fratton Fred

concussion wrote: »

Rememer that half-assed proposal to put RDF all along the West Coast to look for smugglers? Put people on the dole there instead!! They could sit around doing almost nothing, instead of nothing at all :pac:

And earn themselves a few extra quid in backhanders at the same time

Dublin_Gunner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And earn themselves a few extra quid in backhanders at the same time

And still do coke all day!

concussion

Sure where would they get the drugs from....aren't they calling in every suspicious activity they see?? Oh. Wait.

Husqvarna

Why is anyone replying to this? It's so off-the-wall that it's obviously a piss take.

An aircraft carrier on the Shannon Estuary...brilliant!!!! An aircraft carrier in a river, and a tidal one at that.

Promote that man!

mrmanire

Husqvarna wrote: »

Why is anyone replying to this? It's so off-the-wall that it's obviously a piss take.

An aircraft carrier on the Shannon Estuary...brilliant!!!! An aircraft carrier in a river, and a tidal one at that.

Promote that man!

Epic stuff going on in this thread. As preposterous as sticking an aircraft Carrier in the Shannon estuary is (even the yanks couldn't spare one!); why do that when you have an unsinkable aircraft carrier there (Shannon Airport) already.

Might be necessary though. Those darned Canadians have had there eyes on the Burren for years!

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe if the ports of Berehaven, Cobh (It could be renamed Queenstown) and Lough Swilly were given to the Royal Navy they could take the job on.

That would be a good step forward for the state

There is only one country in Europe with an Atlantic coast that has trouble patrolling it's waters. Why should the countries that have spent money on their navy cover for it, especially considering the amount of EU money that country has already received.

Well considering britain more than milked Ireland for years, (even under the terms of the treaty the new Irish state had to assume part of britian's debt), what ever about the rest of the EU, the brits should be the last ones to tell us about how we have spent our money and patrolling our waters. Besides, look at the economic shape britian is in, I mean they have to depend on charity's to support their wounded and maimed soldiers back from Afghanistan as the british govt fall short on support for them.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

attack by who?

If the UK was attacked, then the US and the rest of NATO would be obliged to chip in anyway, unless it was one of them doing the attacking, in which case, it is going to be pretty ****ing messy for Ireland anyway.

Well they didn't chip in when the Icelandics ran you home in the Cod War* . And the Americans showed their obligations to you when they invaded Grenada without requesting or telling you

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

McArmalite

Husqvarna wrote: »

Why is anyone replying to this? It's so off-the-wall that it's obviously a piss take.

An aircraft carrier on the Shannon Estuary...brilliant!!!! An aircraft carrier in a river, and a tidal one at that.

Promote that man!

mrmanire wrote: »

Epic stuff going on in this thread. As preposterous as sticking an aircraft Carrier in the Shannon estuary is (even the yanks couldn't spare one!); why do that when you have an unsinkable aircraft carrier there (Shannon Airport) already.

Might be necessary though. Those darned Canadians have had there eyes on the Burren for years!

Best two posts yet !!!

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Well considering britain more than milked Ireland for years, (even under the terms of the treaty the new Irish state had to assume part of britian's debt), what ever about the rest of the EU, the brits should be the last ones to tell us about how we have spent our money and patrolling our waters. Besides, look at the economic shape britian is in, I mean they have to depend on charity's to support their wounded and maimed soldiers back from Afghanistan as the british govt fall short on support for them.


Well they didn't chip in when the Icelandics ran you home in the Cod War* . And the Americans showed their obligations to you when they invaded Grenada without requesting or telling you

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_war

I suggest you try this link www.howthe****doigetasenseofhumour.com (Note, this may or may not work.)

citizen_p

like any country in the first world nowadays.....their would be world wide outcry if we were invaded....and eventually nato or the un would but in and nag or fight the invader away (depending on which)

iceage

Oh ffs, I haven't had a giggle like this in ages......OP post of the day! Off to get my tinfoil hat. WWHHAAAAAAAAAA!!

Steyr

ShotgunPaddy wrote: »

The USA may be too far away to react quickly enough.

Google USAFE