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Am I Irish?
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Erm......obviously. What I meant was, there is nothing very logical about that, so it would be interesting if you could explain why you think that. As I said, going by your post, a person who happened to be born in Shannon during a stopover to the US would be considered Irish, and a person who was born in Singapore to Irish parents wouldn't be?
Oh right well my post was not intended to be logical or factual, it is after hours after all, simply me giving my view as to who an irish person is.
Regarding the stop over thing, well yes if they are born in Shannon then they should have full Irish rights, their parents nationalities should not matter. That is just my opinion and I'm going to leave it at that, if this was the law forum then I would gladly admit defeat and say that I did not know the legal standpoint on it, however going back to the OPs question my views (however silly people may think they are) are based on the question "what makes a person irish in your opinion" and not "who does the Irish legal system recognise as Irish"
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Oh right well my post was not intended to be logical or factual, it is after hours after all, simply me giving my view as to who an irish person is.
Regarding the stop over thing, well yes if they are born in Shannon then they should have full Irish rights, their parents nationalities should not matter. That is just my opinion and I'm going to leave it at that, if this was the law forum then I would gladly admit defeat and say that I did not know the legal standpoint on it, however going back to the OPs question my views (however silly people may think they are) are based on the question "what makes a person irish in your opinion" and not "who does the Irish legal system recognise as Irish"
Thanks for making your point and the op's post more clear.
To explain our stance
Your view, admirale, is that if the child is born in Ireland, then he is Irish and "should have full Irish rights". Well, rights, priviledges and citizenship is a legal issue, therefore the laws must be referred to.
Going back to your view, if you say only people born in Ireland are Irish, then that makes a mockery to the reality were many Irish all over the world give birth to children in another state.(yes, everyone is aware that the child will still be a citizen).
I take it you are fully aware of why a referendum was brought in in 2004 to change the automatic citizenship. I take it you voted against it. THat is fair enough, the above gives an indication of why you may have voted against changing the rules. THats your view and for purpose of debate must be respected. However, if you had voted for change, then your view on the example such as Shannon, respectively is nonsense, as it leads tothe notion that some African can simply come in and have a child, thus having rights but prevent an Irish family giving birth in another country claim that their child is really Irish would make even pc brigader / immigrant friendly person think that maybe it was right to change the rules.
Anyway, going to the trust of the op, in fairness, whilst I am not a member of the PC Brigade, I was fearing that this thread would turn into something one would have found in the 1900's The Leader articles of DP Moran:eek: For those not in the know, this man did so much damage to the Culture Revolution between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland. He was the man who termed the phrase West Brit and he was telling all those who would listen that only the Catholics were really Irish. Thankfully, bar one of two possible posts, people like yourself have refrained from it.
I would have being one of the first to exentively refer to the legal position. The reason, however, was that some people who were making one or two claims as to what they believed the law was were very off the mark.
Too say though, that Irishness only comes by being born in Ireland, in my view, is far too narrow and completely ignores the reality that nearly in every corner of the world, there is an Irish presence whether good or bad, be it via the Church, Politics or Business. You look at places like New York or many of the big countries history, many an Irish man /woman gets a mention. Without their presence, Ireland would really be a no mark country that no one has every heard of. Granted, I am not saying everyone knows were Ireland is nor I am saying everyone thinks we are great, but you can't deny that there have being many many occassions where the Irish have punched above their weight in International events, one reasonably poor example (sound like Inda Kinny here) is the elevation of an Irish Catholic American into the White House. Our country is too small to pick and choose who is a citizen and who is not. We never had nor never will have an Empire like the big boys, but when you look at er, the Church, many Irish have done brilliant (and horrible embarrassing) work overseas
Turning back to your comments, where if you were born in Ireland you are Irish. Yes, thats great and i would share your view (assumed) that once you actually have the right to be considered in law as Irish, then you shouls be treated and respected as being Irish. To turn to other comments about Real roots or colour etc, the defintion of Irishness can't be static and should not be static. The traits of the Irish should be forever evolving and whether the bred of the New Irish, it can only enhance and improve our hertigage, culture and view points of the world.
On a lighter note, being Irish, eh, watching and supporting English / Scottish football, watching English soaps (soaps are crap, the Irish aint much us) listening to English music (in fairness, the beatles, the who...... not bad going for an relatively small island)0 -
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walrusgumble wrote: »
Moreover, are you aware of the crap immigrants have to put up with with the GNIB and INIS? do you realise that at the best of times, competence in said departments is not always the strong trait they possess.
no offence - but competence in most Irish public offices is very rare
and often you get different opinions in the very one and same officem which I will never understand :eek:
and truly I am not aware of the crap in the said depts as I haven't had any contact with them so far so no experience and probably never will
however I would pity a child whose parents won't sort their (chiild's of course) cs before they reach 16
However if I stay there 2-3 more years and my son will finish Primary School and pass Junior Cert Exams I won't see any way back to my homecountry for him ... just because of eduction - he won't manage with the diffence of the education level between those countries - ours is much higher
so I would have to think about applying for cs ...
and in that case do you think it would be fair to deny it for us?0 -
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Johnny Giles wrote: »Irish Criteria:
Born in Ireland*
Catholic
White*
Play/Support GAA
Hate Rangers
*but that rules out half the irish soccer team:cool:
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What is the relevence of all this discussion about surnames. Why should it matteradamn if my surname is Cromwell-Windsor. Is nationality something which only passes via the paternal line (unless parents are unmarried etc) ?have at least one wolfe tones album in you record collection
A record collection ? How quaint
Lots of Irish people have never travelled beyond (/dons flameproof suit) the British Isles (/zips up flameproof suit)and have no plans to do so within the forseeable future. Are you suggesting that such people are stateless by virtue of not possesing a travel document ? By this logic there must have been no such thing as an Irish person prior to 1921 !robbie_998 wrote: »get a damn irish passport !0 -
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Sorry for butting in at the end of a thread, I haven't read it all but got as far as sharpshooters claim that if you're born in Ireland you're irish followed by contradiction of same.
I thought that the point of our referendum a few years ago (don't worry I didn't vote in it!!) was that any child born in Ireland was Irish but now their parents have no legal right to stay in the country with them? Isn't that what has happened in a few cases brought to the courts, that the parents are fighting to be allowed stay but are told their kids can stay but they can't? I honestly have always that to be the case.
oopsies if I've gotten it totally arseways
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no offence - but competence in most Irish public offices is very rare and often you get different opinions in the very one and same officem which I will never understand :eek:
and truly I am not aware of the crap in the said depts as I haven't had any contact with them so far so no experience and probably never will
however I would pity a child whose parents won't sort their (chiild's of course) cs before they reach 16
However if I stay there 2-3 more years and my son will finish Primary School and pass Junior Cert Exams I won't see any way back to my homecountry for him ... just because of eduction - he won't manage with the diffence of the education level between those countries - ours is much higher so I would have to think about applying for cs ...
and in that case do you think it would be fair to deny it for us?
Short answer as for fairness; yes and no.
forgive me, i am a small bit loss with part of your comment in light of my post that you quoted. To make it clear, i was arguing for the child's entitlement to citizenship as of birth where the meets Section 6A. I was responding to another posters query that maybe the child should wait until 16 years to decide taking up citizenship where the parent does not wish to natualise. I was arguing that the child should be (and is) entitled to the citizenship immediately. Section 6 A would be worthless otherwise for reasons i pointed out, such as and in particular access education. It should not matter a fiddlers about the parents future intentions. if the child was born in Ireland to foreign parents and if the parents meet the criteria, then the child is a citizen without condition. At that point it is up to that child to exercise that citizenship (eg apply for passport or live in Ireland) the same as any other child and not the parent.
I don't know your situation or whether you have a child, or whether that child has citizenship at time of his birth (either because the child was born before 2005, or one of parents had lived in this State for 3 years)
However, assuming that you have a child and he/she was born in this country after 2005 and assuming that child is a citizen, then it is right that that child is treated the same as the Fiachra, Cabaiste etc of the world.
However, assuming that your child was/will be born after 2005, but you do/did not met Section 6A criteria at the time of the birth, a number of situations could happen
(a) the child will go through the education system like all others, but College/University might be costly where the child is not a citizen of Ireland or other EU state. However, the child might be entitled to maintenance grants (might)By the time the child would reach college age, the child would probably be 18ish and could freely apply for citizenship himself/herself assuming his permission to reside is not stamp 2(sadly, he / she would be about 20ish before the citizenship would be given so maybe take time out and raise some money for college/uni or do some preparation course). I don't think a child under 18 can apply for one himself after they met the usual 5 years, and i think the parent may have to have naturalised before such an application
(b) If the parent intends to make Ireland his/her residence, they should apply for citizenship. After all, they will hardly want to have to require work permits, hassle with annual renewal of immigration status all their lives? Also they may wish to enjoy the addition of being an EU citizen. Again this takes about 2-3 yearsOnce naturalised, they can apply for the minor child, this will take about 1 year
I guess if you are that concerned about your children and wish to make sure the child has citizenship before they reach college age the parent has a responsibility to apply themselves.
Part of the reason i don't believe it is unfair is because the people who have to apply should be screened/ checked. The applicant may not get citizenship at all if they are either
not of good character (middle to serious criminal convictions)
relied upon social welfare for three years prior to the application (bear in mind most immigrants must be economical active)
and have not shown a genuine intention and good faith that the applicant will reside in Ireland (citizenship should not be taken lightly and its not like collecting 10 crisp packets for a sports bag) examples of bad faith include past failures to renew stauts in a reasonable time, long periods outside this country, applications for residence visas in other countries
It is a bit harsh (ie scenerio you raised), particularily where the child has lived a life no more or no different to the likes of the Fiachra etc of the world. But a line must be drawn in the sand. At the end of the day, your child is a non Eu/irish person and a guest of the state (sorry if that sounds extremely patronising). The parents may not be living up to their expectations in order to reside here. And if, after considering all facts and circumstances in a fair manner, a deportation if merit then the state should be allowed to deport in order to maintain the integrity of the immgiration system. Examples include where the child/parent is involved in serious crime or social welfare fraud (we could go on all day with regard to a person not being a good behaviour but for purpose of this, lets assume this is the situation - anyway, the family may still be successful in beating such a deportation particularily if they have lived here for about 10 years, no point second guessing what a minister might or might not do in these situations). Also, the minister has a responsibility to consider the state's resources such as access to education and applicants for citizenship.
Despite this (ie scenerio you raised), one must remember, the Minister, under the legislation does have discretion to waive the period of residency criteria. If a parent had a subsequent child who was Irish, maybe the rest of the family, considering they have lived in Ireland for a lengthy period of time, might be able to persuade the Minister to waive the normal residency time and consider an application for citizenship. also, it maybe a case where the parent and child are stateless (eg some countries treat their ethnic minorites different and don't treat them as their own citizens, in that situation, citizenship maybe granted to a child regardless of parents length of time here)
In conclusion, it is a small price to pay in order for the parent to naturalise if they want their Irish born child but not a citizen to have citizenship before their 18th birthday
oh yeah, if you the parent are EU citizens (therefore the child is the same) then in reality, you and your family will be treated the same in every way as an Irish person (bar voting for dail - oh no) so citizenship may not be a big issue0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Sorry for butting in at the end of a thread, I haven't read it all but got as far as sharpshooters claim that if you're born in Ireland you're irish followed by contradiction of same.
I thought that the point of our referendum a few years ago (don't worry I didn't vote in it!!) was that any child born in Ireland was Irish but now their parents have no legal right to stay in the country with them? Isn't that what has happened in a few cases brought to the courts, that the parents are fighting to be allowed stay but are told their kids can stay but they can't? I honestly have always that to be the case.
oopsies if I've gotten it totally arseways
yes and no.
the supreme court in 2003 dealt with the parent's right to stay or be removed, and kind of overturned previous cases which automatically allowed the parents to stay. despite this case, there were thousand of children in limbo so plans were made by government to give them residence, as a cut off point.
the referendum was brought in in order to change the laws so that in the future there would be no claims as seen in the courts that a child was a citizen because the laws would not give citizenship to the child in the first place, therefore no legal argument to make. note the small reduction of heavily pregnant asylum seekers coming in - this can be seen at the dept of justices various websites. the referendum had being made more neccessary in light of :
addition of citizenship to northern ireland where additional illegals could be born and avail of irish citizenship as seen in the below case
and a european case known as Chen v UK which might have, in certain limited circumstances attack the supreme court case of 2003 on the basis of EU citizenship rights
The referendum came in order to try and prevent future claims (ie made by illegal immigrants)
THe more recent Irish Citizen Children cases derrive from child born before the change of rules and in light of some harsh conditions and lack of foresight under the IBC 05 scheme or claims made by fathers who came into Ireland 2-3 years after the mother got residence.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP2HR3PZX-M![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
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