Am I Irish?

robbie_998

@walrusgumble.

yes thats much better, thank you

IzzyWizzy

diverdriver wrote: »

Exactly, if you think you're Irish you are. Being Irish is state of mind.

The way some people talk here, they'd be rounding up people who didn't fit in with their narrow view of Irishness and shoot them. Just as well this is the internet and After Hours, not the real world.

It IS the real world. I'm constantly being told things like 'you sound Irish......but you're obviously NOT' and 'well you're sort of like....like Irish but with foreign parents'. It's almost Nazi-ish, but nobody can see that. My mam is English but that's not why they say those things, as you wouldn't know that unless I told you. It's because ONE set of great-grandparents came from a Mediterranean country and that's why I have tanned skin. I just happen to take after them a hell of a lot compared to the rest of my family - my brother is as pasty and freckly as they come.

So...I have an Irish passport, Irish driving license, lived here most of my life, my last name as Irish, I have an Irish accent, went to college in Dublin.....and still the vast majority of Irish people do not see me as one of them.

Lig OFE

have you ever used the phrase "sher he's nothin but a feck-wanker" if so, you're possibly english but have a great grasp of rural ireland

i believe if ya wanna be irish ya can be... i dont know what makes you a citizen but i think if ya love it here and youve lived here a few years, and ya wanna continue to live here then enjoy the place and the chats and the view....

and yes you can be any colour skin and still be irish... it'd just be silly if ya couldn't... it also doesnt matter where your parents are from!! they're not you... my dads from tipperary, i'm from athlone... why would that make me a tipperary person?...

walrusgumble

robbie_998 wrote: »

Scenario No. 1 = before the thing was brought in that was the case but after that it no longer work like that so none of them are irish full stop.

Scenario No. 2 = if they dont have irish parents then they should not be able to claim to be irish.

scenario 1, eh, no. the children born in ireland before January 2005, are Irish Citizens, can hold passports and will only ever be revoked pending an application by the Minister to do so. The children born in Ireland before 2005, did not stop being citizens. Now, being allowed to stay in Ireland is a different matter.

As of 2005, any child born in Ireland and whose parents are not irish will not be citizens unless the parent or parents hae legally lived here for a least three years

Scenario 2 - so non Irish parents who have lived in Ireland for say, 7 years, legally, but don't wish to apply for citizenship (very very little difference with rights of a citizen and legal immigrant bar passport and EU citizenship and no threat of deportation) should have their children left in limbo??

Dr_Phil

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

So...I have an Irish passport, Irish driving license, lived here most of my life, my last name as Irish, I have an Irish accent, went to college in Dublin.....and still the vast majority of Irish people do not see me as one of them.

My favourite is /after a while of conversation, "where are you from", etc/ "Ah, jeez I thought you're Irish!!"

robbie_998

walrusgumble wrote: »

scenario 1, eh, no. the children born in ireland before January 2005, are Irish Citizens, can hold passports and will only ever be revoked pending an application by the Minister to do so. The children born in Ireland before 2005, did not stop being citizens. Now, being allowed to stay in Ireland is a different matter.

As of 2005, any child born in Ireland and whose parents are not irish will not be citizens unless the parent or parents hae legally lived here for a least three years

Scenario 2 - so non Irish parents who have lived in Ireland for say, 7 years, legally, but don't wish to apply for citizenship (very very little difference with rights of a citizen and legal immigrant bar passport and EU citizenship and no threat of deportation) should have their children left in limbo??

right well if their not gonna be able to stay in the country then why bother even giving them citizenship in the first place ?

for the second one, im not sure of immigrants rules or whatever so im gonna leave that blank but if that is the case then their children should not have irish citizenship IMO

walrusgumble

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

It IS the real world. I'm constantly being told things like 'you sound Irish......but you're obviously NOT' and 'well you're sort of like....like Irish but with foreign parents'. It's almost Nazi-ish, but nobody can see that. My mam is English but that's not why they say those things, as you wouldn't know that unless I told you. It's because ONE set of great-grandparents came from a Mediterranean country and that's why I have tanned skin. I just happen to take after them a hell of a lot compared to the rest of my family - my brother is as pasty and freckly as they come.

So...I have an Irish passport, Irish driving license, lived here most of my life, my last name as Irish, I have an Irish accent, went to college in Dublin.....and still the vast majority of Irish people do not see me as one of them.

Are you Des Bishop by any chance?:D

lightning_saa

I dont think it matters were you where you were born or where u are in the world, its the mentallity

complain about everything
get ****faced
laff about everything

Its pretty easy to be irish imo

ch750536

Both my kids born here to English parents. Both have Irish passports (when 3 & 1 yrs). Both say 'tree' (3) and 'dis' (this). Both join in Irelands call when we watch the rugby.

Does that count?

walrusgumble

robbie_998 wrote: »

right well if their not gonna be able to stay in the country then why bother even giving them citizenship in the first place ?

for the second one, im not sure of immigrants rules or whatever so im gonna leave that blank but if that is the case then their children should not have irish citizenship IMO

Good question. The changes in the laws, was not neccessarily a case of granting the person citizenship (in most cases children/new borns) it was a case of allowing the non irish parents permission to reside in ireland to care for the child. sadly, this led to a bit of a pis& take, a bit of abuse. See the stats from the departments in relation to people from outside the EU coming here, heavily pregnant, applying for asylum (under international law, one cant not turn away an asylum seekers request to be considered for an application, unless Dublin Convention kicks in) and within two weeks to three months give birth and within a week after this event, withdraw their claim for asylum in order to apply for residence which until 2002 was normally given (how come all of a sudden their fears were gone?)

Its a case of not following other European countries in the late 1970's and 1980's in changing their citizenship laws (Britian saw an influx from former colonies - ironic, people from places like Jamacia coming Home to the Motherland being told to f off, imperialism - you reap with you sow), which unfortunately were open to abuse by some. for a while, with the addition of EU citizenship one enjoys, Ireland was considered a back door to Europe, much to the anger of Brussels after a European Court Case in 2004 known as Chen v UK.

You have to regard for a number of matters, first, old and new articles 2 and 3 cheerish all of irish birth and anestory, robbo was in the aras with her light for the irish disapora, ireland had never experienced, until 1990's have such a influx of non nationals, whether work permit holders, asylum seekers/declared refugees, citizens from other EU states or illegals

Basically that decision of parents being allowed to stay in Ireland comes from a number of High Court and Supreme Court cases from 1980's-2009, cases such as Loebe 2003, Dimbo (2008), Fajujonu (1990), all/most of which dealt with citizen children whose parents were neither Irish or EU citizens and in most cases were illegal at time of birth or when deportation order was issued. Those cases acknowledged that while the citizen child could not be deported, the parents, depending on a number of issues such as length of time in the country may be deported. Effectively, if the parents are deported, then who is going to look after the child? Wouldn't sending the parent or parents back to their country of origin not really effectively mean removing the citizen child? If the child had to go home with the parents like in Loebe (funny enough after all that hassle, they (parents and other non Irish children) would have being free to stay one year later due to the Czech Republic joining the EU - subject to EU laws of course, alternatively, Lobe might have being allowed to avail of the then IBC 05 scheme) However, even if they had to go home , there would be nothing stopping the citizen child returning and living in Ireland when they were 18 years old.

The State dealt with this matter far too late (when the floods came in). As a result of Lobe, children were left in limbo. So, as a once off, the remaining parents of citizen children who were still in Ireland were granted residency in Ireland to raise their citizen children here.

Normally, laws don't tend to be retrospective, the new laws did not effect the children's right to the citizenship

The new laws now are put in place to prevent certain parents claiming their child is a citizen therefore enjoying a possibly strong argument to allow the parents to stay

the issue left to consider is what about the parent who came over to ireland to reunite with the citizen child and mother after a lenghty period away (this was recently considered in the High Court before the summer) or the scenerio where at time of birth one parent was legal (for 3 years or more and not an international student) and the other parent was not legal or was an international student (they are legal but their time as a student is not counted for reckonable residency). While the child is a citizen, there will not be a 100% gurantee that the illegal parent will be allowed to stay in Ireland solely on the basis of playing an active role in the citizen childs life. every case to be considered on its own merits and facts.

Rebelheart

Teferi wrote: »

If you are born here, you're Irish.

So does that mean Sir Kevin Myers is not Irish? Shock!

IzzyWizzy

Dr_Phil wrote: »

My favourite is /after a while of conversation, "where are you from", etc/ "Ah, jeez I thought you're Irish!!"

Yep, the "where are you from?" after a ten minute conversation is always a laugh. Or from someone who has seen my name (first and last names are Irish). I actually get "your English is really good" sometimes as well. I'm a fecking English teacher!

walrusgumble wrote: »

Are you Des Bishop by any chance?:D

No, how dare you associate me with Des Bishop!

toomevara

Two questions;

One; What happens when, though born in Ireland, you no longer 'feel' Irish...i.e. you've lived away so long you no longer identify with the place....how do you know when its time to jump ship...or can/should you?

Two; Which passport would you have if you could have any one you liked?

Rebelheart

Daroxtar wrote: »

Is Sean Og O Hailpin Irish?

I don't see why Seán Óg Ó hAilpín would not be Irish, although anybody who supports the GPA is a bit suspect in my book (Seán Óg was supercool until he joined those wholly repellant parasites).

Imagine that; I just linked Irishness with trustworthiness. hehe.

Rebelheart

Daroxtar wrote: »

Sometimes when your balls are too big they bang off your legs and slow you down when you try to run:D

Now, that is philosophy!:)

Tigger

if yer born in ireland yer irish
just cant keep yer parents here on rthe grounds you were born here

robbie_998

@walrus

very good answering there,

let me give you this scenario if i may (one which is currently happening but not in a major way)

There is a foreign female student in college who only came here last summer (2008), She is in full time education here in Rep. Of Ireland but this is her last year, so come june/july she will be finished schooling.

But she has being up the duff for the last couple of months now and is expected to drop before she is finished schooling (how she's going to sit exams i have no idea (so i'm just gonna guess she's abusing it so she has an excuse))

She will still be a student when she drops.

Will her child be a Irish citizen ? (there is no sign of a father(also not from Ireland) (one night stand))

I really dont see why she should be allowed (or her child for that matter) to stay in the country and claim irish citizenship.

walrusgumble

robbie_998 wrote: »

right well if their not gonna be able to stay in the country then why bother even giving them citizenship in the first place ?

for the second one, im not sure of immigrants rules or whatever so im gonna leave that blank but if that is the case then their children should not have irish citizenship IMO

with regard to the second issue, what happens if the non Irish parents who have lived in Ireland legally for more than 3 years, work (and never unemployed) paid their taxes etc, are not allowed by their own countries to have dual citizenship. Places like China do not recongise a Chinese nationals choice of selecting another citizenship. They may effectively revoke that parent's Chinese citizenship. Well, what happens if they have to return home for a funeral etc and when they enter their country of birth they are treated as a foreigner? how would the Irish take this if they had come back from say the US?

A person should not have to be made take up a particular citizenship if they not wish to choose to do so. So long as they are law abiding citizens in a host state, that should be enough. How many Irish completely shed their Irish background/roots when they decide to permanently live and become citizens of the US, Australia etc.

For most part, the parent would/will naturalise for lots of obvious and reasonable reasons. Thats all fine and well so long as they don't loose their citizenship of the country of their birth.

Just becasue the parent does not wish to apply for Irish Citizenship, it should not mean that their children should be stopped for at least be given the opportunity to become citizens.

Rebelheart

diverdriver wrote: »

One day in my job, in an idle moment I counted up all the names on the phone list and worked out which had English or Scottish or Welsh names and which had Irish, ignoring of course the actual, English, Scottish, Americans etc. It came out at about 40% give or take. Not very scientific, I know but interesting. Not English versions of Irish names but actual English names.

I really don't know how you managed that as even Edward MacLysaght himself made some errors. For instance, did you include any of those very many English names which are used as representations of Irish names - e.g. Smith for Mac Gabhann (particularly in Cavan where they are most common)? Were Norman names included or excluded? Were pre-Gaelic names like Ó Neachtain included or excluded? How did you manage with polygenetic surnames such as Lynch (Ó Loingsigh & de Línse)? Try it again, but have MacLysaght's book or the newer Seán de Bhulbh's Sloinnte na hÉireann - Irish Surnames book next to you.;)


PS: De Bhulbh's book has recently become available on The Irish Times website, where you can now search all Irish surnames: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/sloinnte.htm

walrusgumble

toomevara wrote: »

Two questions;

One; What happens when, though born in Ireland, you no longer 'feel' Irish...i.e. you've lived away so long you no longer identify with the place....how do you know when its time to jump ship...or can/should you?

Two; Which passport would you have if you could have any one you liked?

golly, why on earth would you consider that:eek: are you sick?

Ah no, under Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956-2004 you could always renounce your citizenship to the dept of foreign affairs. However, be warned, unless you have citizenship of another EU country, be prepared for those lovely meetings with Immigration Officers at airports all over Europe and Ireland where unless you are an american/canadian/aussie, expect to be treated like a paedo by the joeys, increased fees if studying, curtailed rights on voting(NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOO) and visa applications

with regard to the passports,put both in your pocket well which ever one looks the prettiest (if they are passports of EU states, whilst travelling within EU), if American going to America use the America if travelling from america to europe use europe (no visa etc - same applies for passports of other non eu states when returning to that country)

sona1972

when born here of irish parents!!

walrusgumble

robbie_998 wrote: »

@walrus

very good answering there,

let me give you this scenario if i may (one which is currently happening but not in a major way)

There is a foreign female student in college who only came here last summer (2008), She is in full time education here in Rep. Of Ireland but this is her last year, so come june/july she will be finished schooling.

But she has being up the duff for the last couple of months now and is expected to drop before she is finished schooling (how she's going to sit exams i have no idea (so i'm just gonna guess she's abusing it so she has an excuse))

She will still be a student when she drops.

Will her child be a Irish citizen ? (there is no sign of a father(also not from Ireland) (one night stand))

I really dont see why she should be allowed (or her child for that matter) to stay in the country and claim irish citizenship.

In general,

Unless the father is Irish or a non Irish national legally residing here for the past three years, that child will not be an Irish Citizen, therefore, would not have a ground in relation to the child. The period as a student, thou legal, do not count as reckonable resdiency for Section 6 A of the Citizenship Ac or Section 16 of same (naturalisation). If the father is not a citizen or is not living here legally for three years, the child will be considered in facts and law to be Chinese.

Regardless, there is still no guarantee that the Minister will grant status to the mother. The Minister, until he proposes to deport (by law, must be in writing) the mother if she becomes illegal/revokes the conditions of her student visa, the minister is not obliged to consider an application for residency on basis of child's irish citizenship.

Secondly, normally, the parents have to be playing an active role. sue for maintenance

Now of course, if the father was french/other EU, but had not lived in IReland for the three years, the child would be entitled to EU citizenship and nationality of the father's country (by descent). The child may have rights to reside on the basis of his father excercising his EU rights in Ireland or the child, by virtue of his EU citizenship (father's) and the mother may be entitled to stay in Ireland on that basis. need more facts Considering the mother being always considered the main carer, she may be allowed to stay and raised the child in Ireland or even (may) country of father. Alternatively, the child, assuming the father is a citizen of another EU country, may, be allowed to stay on its own basis (this is a small may) the mother better have a lot of money and health insurance to meet the Chen case.

from the facts of this case, it is likely the child will not be an Irish Citizen or a citizen from another EU state, the father would likely be an International student. It would be funny tracking the father down for an expensive DNA test. Its likely the child is a Chinese citizen. So, unless the student either gets a work permit, marry an EU citizen (who is working/self employed or other ways of excercising their freemovement rights and not being a burden to state), or renew her student visa, she will be expected to leave come the end of her term or when she is allowed to finish any exams

With regard to the dropping out, her visa ends when she
(a) fails a course or drops out (unless Minister allows her to apply for a new course)
(b) works more than 20 hours a week during college term
(c) abuses the visa by working full time/running a business
(d) fails to attend 80% of her classes.

THere are brand new student rules coming in next year which will be cutting down on the er, english language students staying in Ireland for 6 years. THe reform is to be wholesale, making it difficult for students to get a visa unless doing a proper course

with regard to the abuse, well, we shall leave that issue as we dont want pc brigade coming down or to make generalise sweeps against genuine students.

Catari Jaguar

In the (loosely altered) words of Diamond Head

Am I Irish? Yes I ****in am!
Am I Irish? I am man, yes I am!

Lirael

walrusgumble wrote: »

scenario 1, eh, no. the children born in ireland before January 2005, are Irish Citizens, can hold passports and will only ever be revoked pending an application by the Minister to do so. The children born in Ireland before 2005, did not stop being citizens. Now, being allowed to stay in Ireland is a different matter.

As of 2005, any child born in Ireland and whose parents are not irish will not be citizens unless the parent or parents hae legally lived here for a least three years

Scenario 2 - so non Irish parents who have lived in Ireland for say, 7 years, legally, but don't wish to apply for citizenship (very very little difference with rights of a citizen and legal immigrant bar passport and EU citizenship and no threat of deportation) should have their children left in limbo??

no, they may not wish to have irish cs but they still can apply for irish cs for the child as they have fulfilled the minimum period of 3 yrs living in the state ... unless I am mistaken

me_right_one

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Quick question, as a foreigner: when do you consider a person to be Irish:

1. When has an Irish citizensip
2. Was born in Ireland
3. Born in Ireland from Irish parents, who were born from Irish parents, etc, etc..
4. Is just well integrated into society and the lifestyle


Cheers.

Dunno what legally makes one Irish, but IMO, you can only call yourself Irish if all of your ancestors were born here since the famine, and you're not a dub. Dubs are the most anti-Irish people on Earth:mad:

me_right_one

Just as a side note - I can never understand why foreigners want to be Irish. If I moved to Nigeria, I wouldn't want to be Nigerian! It all stinks of fraud to me TBH

Rebelheart

me_right_one wrote: »

Just as a side note - I can never understand why foreigners want to be Irish. If I moved to Nigeria, I wouldn't want to be Nigerian! It all stinks of fraud to me TBH

To paraphrase a guy in a letter to The Irish Times some months ago: when he lived in Britain in the 1950s at no stage did he want to be deemed British and would have been offended had somebody called him such.

In that context, I have to agree that claims that somebody should be considered Irish as soon as they step off the boat or live here for a few years sound phony.

Dr_Phil

me_right_one wrote: »

Just as a side note - I can never understand why foreigners want to be Irish. If I moved to Nigeria, I wouldn't want to be Nigerian! It all stinks of fraud to me TBH

Well, dunno about others but IMO it's hard to remain in a state of "schizophrenia" when your kid speaks better english than language of the country of origin, when you have a house here, friends, get litte irish habbits and sayings, get involved in day-to-day life.. You can't be split between 2 places just because you were born somewhere else than the place you decided to settle in.

Even todays Irish came from other places ages ago, got mixed with Scottish, Welsh, English, Spanish, Vikings... why would you deny this right to someone who does the same but a bit later?

me_right_one

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Well, dunno about others but IMO it's hard to remain in a state of "schizophrenia" when your kid speaks better english than language of the country of origin, when you have a house here, friends, get litte irish habbits and sayings, get involved in day-to-day life.. You can't be split between 2 places just because you were born somewhere else than the place you decided to settle in.

Even todays Irish came from other places ages ago, got mixed with Scottish, Welsh, English, Spanish, Vikings... why would you deny this right to someone who does the same but a bit later?

Whats there to be schizo about? If, for example, you were born and raised in Poland, your ancestors were Polish for several hundred years, you are fluent in Polish, but you just happen to work and live in Ireland, then you're Polish! Nothing wrong with that. Sure didn't thousands of Irish people do that all over the world. They still call themselves Irish, and they're proud of it!

The english, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and some French all come from the same gene pool, ie Gaelic. So we're not that mixed. Its just that genuine Gaelic-ness was preserved best in Ireland. Out of them, the english are probably the most mixed. And when the Vikings came, the segregated themselves away from the natives for fear of getting their asses kicked, and kicked they were, by good aul Brian Boru in the battle of Clontarf, 1014 ad.

People who come here looking for a free ride are never welcome. We had a terrible history, as I'm sure you know. It still isn't sorted. Hence why we're justifiably a bit suspicious of foreigners.

Electric Sheep

me_right_one wrote: »

Just as a side note - I can never understand why foreigners want to be Irish. If I moved to Nigeria, I wouldn't want to be Nigerian! It all stinks of fraud to me TBH

I can never understand why ANYONE wants to be Irish.