All Estate Names to be in Irish

dermo88 · 06-12-2009 09:52AM

Dolanbaker. A very moot point, but its not quite possible for a 30kilo, 160 cm tall 13year old kid to confront a 70 kilo angry, impatient, hurley wielding 45year old adult with such rational points. Particularly when the same adult is aiming to teach a classroom with 35 OTHER kids and needs to maintain control through fear, sarcasm, intimidation, because to do otherwise, leads to chaos, and he knows it. The same adult is attempting to teach the same 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old, who does'nt quite grasp the concepts he is teaching (badly) to the point where the 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old kid can actually express that in Irish.

Sadly, 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old never reaches the point where he should be able to say it in Irish. I could say it in Spanish and Malay with a reasonable degree of fluency. As for Irish......I'm in recovery to the point where I appreciate it. But I am not alone in believing that the methods used taught resentment rather than love for 'an teanga'.

06-12-2009 10:15AM

dermo88 wrote: »

Dolanbaker. A very moot point, but its not quite possible for a 30kilo, 160 cm tall 13year old kid to confront a 70 kilo angry, impatient, hurley wielding 45year old adult with such rational points. Particularly when the same adult is aiming to teach a classroom with 35 OTHER kids and needs to maintain control through fear, sarcasm, intimidation, because to do otherwise, leads to chaos, and he knows it. The same adult is attempting to teach the same 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old, who does'nt quite grasp the concepts he is teaching (badly) to the point where the 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old kid can actually express that in Irish.

Sadly, 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old never reaches the point where he should be able to say it in Irish. I could say it in Spanish and Malay with a reasonable degree of fluency. As for Irish......I'm in recovery to the point where I appreciate it. But I am not alone in believing that the methods used taught resentment rather than love for 'an teanga'.

I wasn't educated in Ireland, so can't comment directly on Irish scoolteachers of the past - heard plenty of horror stories!

But my point about supportive parants stands, if the kids pick up that their parants see it as a waste of time, they're likely to feel the same.
My kids seem to be doing OK in Irish though.

Powerhouse · 06-12-2009 11:02AM

dermo88 wrote: »

I've always had misgivings about the treatment and, dare I say, the mismanaged decline of the Irish language. Making it an "official" language of state, to me, merely meant creating a glorified social employment scheme for a plethora of misfits who had no great love of the language except for keeping them in gainful employment at taxpayers expense. Removing the language meant they were redundant.

There is preservation, there is maintainance, then there is progress. I suppose the nicest thing to happen is the creation of TNaG which ensures that there is some relevance to the modern world, and growth in usage. I am glad it happened, my only regret is, that I wish it was there when I was in school, although watching An Nuacht, or Radharc helped.

I will agree that it is the way it is taught. I will shock you. At 11, I spoke and wrote BETTER Irish than I did at 17. This was thanks to a teacher who was very progressive and taught it like a modern European language. Yes - there was poetry and essays to show gramatical and linguistic niceties and unique features at that time, and some of the poetry and prose was required, particularly after learning grammar, we then saw an everyday application of the grammar. Make no bones about it, we do need to learn grammatical structures, syntax, conjugate verbs, and EVERY language requires some degree of rote learning of these, so that they are imprinted on the memory for future usage.

The argument that a "child of 5 can see through a lot of bull****", is a valid one. Well.....I am sad that I was taught to hate the Irish language at one stage, grew to like it, then to hate it, depending on which teacher was dealing with me at the time. Being a bit precocious I handled sarcasm, nutjobs, power crazed nutters and freaks pretty badly. Am I scarred for life, far from it. Do I have a chip on my shoulder as a result - Yes, two, one on each, so I can be regarded as a pretty balanced individual.

Was it me, or the system. I am mature enough now to say both. Which came first, the chicken or the egg. It was the switch between Munster dialect, Ulster dialect, then Galway dialect (1st and 3rd dialects are relatively similar, Ulster dialect sounds different). Because of the so called "Irish language fascists", depending on the region they were from, no one dialect predominated. They all wanted their own dialect so hated the others with even more contempt than they had for English, or filthy Soccer, Rugby or Foreign games put together. Indeed.....Myles na Gopaleen (AKA Flann O'Brien) satirised this attitude brilliantly.

The money spent on the Irish language could be better spent. Putting Estate names in Irish is like the Government policy towards the language since Independence. The Welsh have done a far better job of reviving their language and are willing and proud to use it everyday. Of course, we are Irish and naturally a bit rebellious. I am convinced as a result that the best thing to do to the Irish language is ban it. Immediately - EVERYONE would want to learn and speak it. Plus, we could throw away those Irish language fascists who helped me hate it by using such phrases.

"Ta se ag caint Gaeilge as an Leabhar"

(He is speaking "Book Irish", as in he does not have physical experience of it)

My final line is a savage indictment of the system. We spend perhaps 11 or 12 years in school learning a language that has no use outside a rock on the edge of Europe. We have spent untold BILLIONS of Euro/Pounds/Whatever since Independence teaching a language that we want to resurrect for the sake of resurrection in itself, rather than aiming to look out, we aimed to look in. This left Ireland insular and isolated for a long long time. Propose cutting anything in relation to this bauble, this toy, this ornament, one is called any one of the following:

"West Brit"
"Unpatriotic"
"Anti Irish"
"Thatcherite"

I am not saying discard Irish. I am saying reform the methods it is taught. If people wish, they can be reasonably conversant in a language within 2 years. Why is it that we spend 6 times that length of time learning a language that we hardly use after the age of 17, and still are NOT fluent. Why is it that we could spend perhaps a fraction of that time learning a modern European/Eastern language, and end up borderline fluent.

Work smarter, not harder. The money wasted on it can be spent far more effectively making people WANT to use it, rather than FORCED. The only reason many of us wanted a "D" at Pass level was so we could be eligible for the civil service.

Was the language sexy enough? I mean, I'd rather admire the curves on Antonia, or Christina, rather than Feachtna, Nollaig or Niamh.....was that it? ....that it reminded me of a land happily covered in mist and damp and cold, rather than the sexy alluring sunshine of Santo Domingo or the Costa Del Sol. ....could I admire the curves on the tits of Apple in Ampang, while seducing her with alluring sexy tones of Malay, Thai or Cantonese?

This needs to be solved. Our people as taxpayers deserve better. Our parents who bought/buy schoolbooks and tapes deserve better. Those who truly love Ireland and the Irish language and wish to maintain, retain and improve our distinctive cultural identity deserve better.

Though your sentiments will naturally have an appeal to those of a certain disposition, the one or two vaguely valid points in here are lost in all the half-baked nonsense about dialects and the collection of clichés that is Myles na gCopeleen, hating foreign games, and and if your one speaking Irish had bigger knockers I'd be Liam Ó Murchú. Though in fairness "Thatcherite" is a new one - I thought I had heard them all. And yes there is 'book Irish' (and 'book French' - though you can't point out the bit about the latter in polite company). It's funny how you seem to defend the right to use it despite at the same time welcoming TG4 which is the opposite to book Irish. God forbid someone might want somebody learning a language to remove the brush-handle for the arse and speak something that is naturally occurring argot.

There are issues with the way languages have been taught in schools over the years. I got honours French in the Leaving Cert and couldn't speak a word of it a year or two later - not was I trained in school to have any meaningful conversation as the preparation for the oral was pretty much learning stuff off. There is a fundametal dishonesty among the anti-Irish brigade in this respect.

You also show a complete lack of understanding of how fluency in a language is achieved. You could study a language for 40 years and not be fluent if you are not immersed. Why people self-righteously quote the number of years they learned Irish for and then announce they were not fluent beats me. The idea that fluency could or should be achieved in less than three hours a week for thirty weeks of the year in a classroom environment is laughable.

And also can be please disabuse ourselves of the notion that the Irish are rebellious. The Irish (bar a few in every generation who are broadly regarded as loons) are a disgustingly conformist bunch of clowns who are terribly afraid to be different and are generally embarrassed about anything they do which is not shared by the world.

That's why so many thought the only availabe validation for Croke Park was to have international sports played there - "jaysus the Brazilians will be firece impressed with teh satidum so they will!"

That's why you get the "why don't we all learn German, it'd be fierce useful" mullarkey. Piss poor school German is about as useful to the average Irish person as a chocolate fireguard but the real attraction for many is that it is not Irish - it's foreign, so it must be better than anything we have at home.

Finally, the idea that banning Irish would make people want to speak it is arguably the biggest cliché in modern Ireland. What a load of absolute barstool cobblers. The Irish will do what they are told and will label the few who don't as nutters as they have always done over the centuries.

Powerhouse · 06-12-2009 11:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If anyone ever accused me of that, I would remind them that English has more dialects than you can shake a stick at! e.g. English regions for starters, American, hiberno-English, Australian etc... etc..

Funny how you don't mention 'book English' as one of the dialects but expect 'book Irish' to be one. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Powerhouse · 06-12-2009 11:08AM

dermo88 wrote: »

But I am not alone in believing that the methods used taught resentment rather than love for 'an teanga'.

Indeed you are not alone, but it also should be put on record that thousands of Irish people did very well at Irish in school too. Their voices are rarely heard when all those concentration camp victims have their group therapy sessions on threads such as this.

06-12-2009 11:17AM

Powerhouse wrote: »

Funny how you don't mention 'book English' as one of the dialects but expect 'book Irish' to be one. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Book English is one of the etc's :rolleyes:

Edit: I think you misunderstood my post, as a learner of Irish "I speak book Irish!".

Rebelheart · 06-12-2009 12:01PM

dermo88 wrote: »

A very moot point, but its not quite possible for a 30kilo, 160 cm tall 13year old kid to confront a 70 kilo angry, impatient, hurley wielding 45year old adult with such rational points. Particularly when the same adult is aiming to teach a classroom with 35 OTHER kids and needs to maintain control through fear, sarcasm, intimidation, because to do otherwise, leads to chaos, and he knows it. The same adult is attempting to teach the same 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old, who does'nt quite grasp the concepts he is teaching (badly) to the point where the 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old kid can actually express that in Irish.

Sadly, 30 kilo, 160 cm tall 13 year old never reaches the point where he should be able to say it in Irish.

"Hurley wielding"? Cop yourself on.

As for the rest of your post, accept responsibility for your own failings and stop seeking scapegoats for them, the vast majority of which rest upon a distorted (and stereotypical) representation of the reality. It's utterly pathetic.

Rebelheart · 06-12-2009 12:22PM

Iris Cool Wineglass wrote: »

But those languages are actually purposeful. My point is the Irish language has increasingly become a bastardisation of English so why bother when the only reason it's being learned is to push our sense of national identity and history anyway? it's pointless!

in response to this:

dlofnep wrote: »

Eh, not really.. Considering Television is a mixture of two languages (Greek and Latin).

Television in spanish? televisión

Television in croatian? televizija

Television in french? télévision

Television in finnish? televisio

Actually, Iris Cool Wineglass, your initial point was clearly this:

Iris Cool Wineglass wrote: »

translating words like television to teilifís. that's what makes it stupid.

When this was shown unequivocally to be an ignorant view, you decided to change your "point".

Pitiful. And desperate.

Rebelheart · 06-12-2009 12:26PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

Though your sentiments will naturally have an appeal to those of a certain disposition, the one or two vaguely valid points in here are lost in all the half-baked nonsense about dialects and the collection of clichés that is Myles na gCopeleen, hating foreign games, and and if your one speaking Irish had bigger knockers I'd be Liam Ó Murchú. Though in fairness "Thatcherite" is a new one - I thought I had heard them all. And yes there is 'book Irish' (and 'book French' - though you can't point out the bit about the latter in polite company). It's funny how you seem to defend the right to use it despite at the same time welcoming TG4 which is the opposite to book Irish. God forbid someone might want somebody learning a language to remove the brush-handle for the arse and speak something that is naturally occurring argot.

There are issues with the way languages have been taught in schools over the years. I got honours French in the Leaving Cert and couldn't speak a word of it a year or two later - not was I trained in school to have any meaningful conversation as the preparation for the oral was pretty much learning stuff off. There is a fundametal dishonesty among the anti-Irish brigade in this respect.

You also show a complete lack of understanding of how fluency in a language is achieved. You could study a language for 40 years and not be fluent if you are not immersed. Why people self-righteously quote the number of years they learned Irish for and then announce they were not fluent beats me. The idea that fluency could or should be achieved in less than three hours a week for thirty weeks of the year in a classroom environment is laughable.

And also can be please disabuse ourselves of the notion that the Irish are rebellious. The Irish (bar a few in every generation who are broadly regarded as loons) are a disgustingly conformist bunch of clowns who are terribly afraid to be different and are generally embarrassed about anything they do which is not shared by the world.

That's why so many thought the only availabe validation for Croke Park was to have international sports played there - "jaysus the Brazilians will be firece impressed with teh satidum so they will!"

That's why you get the "why don't we all learn German, it'd be fierce useful" mullarkey. Piss poor school German is about as useful to the average Irish person as a chocolate fireguard but the real attraction for many is that it is not Irish - it's foreign, so it must be better than anything we have at home.

Finally, the idea that banning Irish would make people want to speak it is arguably the biggest cliché in modern Ireland. What a load of absolute barstool cobblers. The Irish will do what they are told and will label the few who don't as nutters as they have always done over the centuries.

Very honest! Fair play.

Rebelheart · 06-12-2009 12:46PM

Iris Cool Wineglass wrote: »

it's a fúcking stupid ugly language, i don't want to have to speak it.

Another supremely erudite post, Iris Cool Wineglass. You're truly the diamond in the rough of the anti-Irish brigade. You're not that David Herman chap who used to write regular anti-Irish language letters to The Irish Times until another David Herman wrote in asking the paper to stop publishing his views as they were causing him, the innocent David Herman, a lot of trouble and affecting his auctioneering business?

You seem to be struggling with the Queen's English at any rate; no wonder Irish was too much for you. And you've already embarrassed yourself on the etymology of teilifis. As for the latter; imagine that, an English word, television, which derives from Greek and Latin and may, therefore, explain the existence of similar words across the European languages. And you really thought the whole world began in the English language. Such erudition.

I'd say the idea that the English language has taken countless words from other languages - indeed, that there are other languages - is already causing you psychological problems so I'll stop here.

30txsbzmcu2k9w · 06-12-2009 12:49PM

Rebelheart wrote: »

in response to this:

Actually, drinkmilkkids, your initial point was clearly this: When this was shown unequivocally to be an ignorant view, you decided to change your "point".

Pitiful. And desperate.

read between the lines. how am i changing my point exactly? may not have expressed it clearly in the first one, granted. putting my posts backwards won't change my point.

anonymous_joe · 06-12-2009 12:59PM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Another supremely erudite post, drinkmilkkids. You're truly the diamond in the rough of the anti-Irish brigade. You're not that David Herman chap who used to write regular anti-Irish language letters to The Irish Times until another David Herman wrote in asking the paper to stop publishing his views as they were causing him, the innocent David Herman, a lot of trouble and affecting his auctioneering business?

You seem to be struggling with the Queen's English at any rate; no wonder Irish was too much for you. And you've already embarrassed yourself on the etymology of teilifis. As for the latter; imagine that, an English word, television, which derives from Greek and Latin and may, therefore, explain the existence of similar words across the European languages. And you really thought the whole world began in the English language. Such erudition.

I'd say the idea that the English language has taken countless words from other languages - indeed, that there are other languages - is already causing you psychological problems so I'll stop here.

Television is an awful portmanteau. Hideous word. Two languages raped to create it. :pac:

Anyway, in fairness to your man, I was always led to understand that we did not take the word television from the Latin and Greek roots, that's what the English did. (Scottish technically) We then nicked their word.

In fairness, the languages that have influenced Irish are Viking, French, both of which in the middle ages, and then from the 14th century or so onwards, English English English.

Irish in all fairness, isn't the worst of languages, but it's not got much use. Also, it's just taught fcuking badly. I speak better French despite half the time spent being taught it. That's not a myth.

Agricola · 06-12-2009 01:18PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's why so many thought the only availabe validation for Croke Park was to have international sports played there - "jaysus the Brazilians will be firece impressed with teh satidum so they will!"

No, I think what so many thought was that since our soccer and rugby teams didnt have a place to play their sport while representing Ireland, it would be only right and proper that the GAA would at least offer to open up Croke Park for the time of the redevelopment of Landsdowne Road. Which they did, and fair play to them. They put aside the bigoted parish pump politics and put the good of Irish sport and Irish sports fans first....

Oh yeah and the good of their loan repayments too obviously!

kowloon · 06-12-2009 01:19PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

The Irish will do what they are told and will label the few who don't as nutters as they have always done over the centuries.

Doesn't do much for the coercion argument.

Agricola · 06-12-2009 01:33PM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I speak better French despite half the time spent being taught it. That's not a myth.

Join the club! I can get by quite well as a tourist in France after 5 years of French classes. If I was dropped in an Irish speaking area I wouldnt last 5 minutes. And thats after 13 years of it in school. Incredible really.

InKonspikuou2 · 06-12-2009 01:49PM

I know it's a bit harsh but i think people should be given 5 years to learn gaeilge and if they don't pass a test they will be shot. Maybe that might inject a bit of interest over the unbelievable ignorance of Irish people towards their own language. Hebrew had no benefit in learning but as much as i hate israelis at least they can speak a fúckin language associated with their culture.

MagicMarker · 06-12-2009 01:51PM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

I know it's a bit harsh but i think people should be given 5 years to learn gaeilge and if they don't pass a test they will be shot. Maybe that might inject a bit of interest over the unbelievable ignorance of Irish people towards their own language. Hebrew had no benefit in learning but as much as i hate israelis at least they can speak a fúckin language associated with their culture.

I think all people from Finglas should be shot.

InKonspikuou2 · 06-12-2009 01:53PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I think all people from Finglas should be shot.

With the marksmen we have i don't see that succeeding.

Agricola · 06-12-2009 01:54PM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

I know it's a bit harsh but i think people should be given 5 years to learn gaeilge and if they don't pass a test they will be shot. Maybe that might inject a bit of interest over the unbelievable ignorance of Irish people towards their own language. Hebrew had no benefit in learning but as much as i hate israelis at least they can speak a fúckin language associated with their culture.

TheZohan will not be amused!

kowloon · 06-12-2009 01:56PM

I wonder what the result of a vote on this would be, or does 'culture' take precedence?

How about a poll?

Should the Irish language be artificially propped up at cost or allowed to develop by itself as language has tended to do over the last few millennia?

06-12-2009 01:57PM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

I know it's a bit harsh but i think people should be given 5 years to learn gaeilge and if they don't pass a test they will be shot. Maybe that might inject a bit of interest over the unbelievable ignorance of Irish people towards their own language. Hebrew had no benefit in learning but as much as i hate israelis at least they can speak a fúckin language associated with their culture.

A more efficient solution would be to make Irish the "obair teanga" of the civil service, then everyone would need to use it to claim benefits etc. the country would be bi-lingual within a decade :pac:

InKonspikuou2 · 06-12-2009 02:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

A more efficient solution would be to make Irish the "obair teanga" of the civil service, then everyone would need to use it to claim benefits etc. the country would be bi-lingual within a decade :pac:

I was joking about the method. But i think the attitude towards the language is disgraceful. Fair enough if you can't speak it and from what i hear the way it's taught in non gaelscoils is a joke. But how much it is put down as useless and pointless, ugly and a crap dead language is beyond a joke.

xOxSinéadxOx · 06-12-2009 02:20PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Hardly anyone who lives outside of a Gaeltacht has.

In schools, thanks to the points race, all that anyone is taught is how to memorise pre-written essays for poetry and prose. If it were taught like French for example maybe some people may be atleast able to hold a conversation in Irish (Not that there is any reason to hold a conversation in Irish).

There should be basic Irish taught like French in the Leaving Cert and an optional subject called Irish Literature or something. The current way of teaching it makes everyone hate the language, whats the use in learning off poetry answers? Very few people read anything in Irish outside of school and I am fairly sure no one reads irish poetry and decides to analyze it.

but you've been thought irish since you were about 5. why would you need to go learning the basics for it for leaving cert? you only took up french in 1st year, you've been doing irish for way longer. If you need to learn the basics at leaving cert level your primary school obviously failed you, and if you go on to french in college you'll be doing literature, it's how you study a language!

Agricola · 06-12-2009 02:34PM

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

but you've been thought irish since you were about 5. why would you need to go learning the basics for it for leaving cert? you only took up french in 1st year, you've been doing irish for way longer. If you need to learn the basics at leaving cert level your primary school obviously failed you, and if you go on to french in college you'll be doing literature, it's how you study a language!

Yes. But does that mean that the kind of Irish taught to secondary students is abit too obscure then? Would it not be better to approach Irish from the same standpoint as a foreign language. Keep it relatively conversational / very day life usage during primary and secondary school. Make it interesting and accessible to young people who maybe have low attention spans anyway. That way they have a great foundation for going onto to the the high brow / literary type stuff in 3rd level, if they so choose. If they dont then they still have a vastly improved grasp of the language at 18 than most 18 years old do now.

The idea of rote learning verbose Irish essays / poetry is very off putting for teenagers Id say. Its was when I was there anyway.

thebman · 06-12-2009 02:51PM

I think its great, new building standards and all new estates in Irish so I can easily distinguish new housing estates from boom time with sh** bulding standards and insulation from the new houses which will be more green orientated.

I'm sure NAMA is going to work out fine though.

06-12-2009 03:07PM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

I was joking about the method..

I know

citizen_p · 06-12-2009 04:08PM

its just going to make it harder to post somthing.... you will have to get somone to spell the address instead of just say it.

my estate has an irish name but the only reason i remember it is cos only 1 word of the two is irish and its only 4 letters.

InKonspikuou2 · 06-12-2009 04:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I know

That part wasn't really for you given the post you made. Was more so for others.

Thucydides · 06-12-2009 05:02PM

cbreeze wrote: »

I think this is to do with the official languages act. Our streets etc are in Irish and English I've noticed. You dont have to like it. Even if there's no money left in the country they will still find the money for these schemes as they are more important than vaccinations for teenage girls against cervical cancer, special needs assistants in schools and medical cards for the over 70s. Don't you know:rolleyes:

Well said. There are many many more important decisions facing the country

KevR · 06-12-2009 05:51PM

I did Higher Level Irish for the Leaving Cert, passed it but couldn't/can't hold a conversation in Irish back then or now. I can't see how it would really benefit me to put a lot of effort into becoming fluent now. I have nothing against it, it would be nice to know it, but the fact is I don't speak Irish and am unlikely to ever speak it.

I live in Galway and I don't think Irish estate names is a good idea. People have difficulty getting the spelling correct for some of the Irish named estates.

In relation to road signs having Gaeltacht placenames only in Irish, that's a bit ignorant in my opinion. There are Irish citizens, like me, who speak little or no Irish so these signs with only Irish on them can cause problems. All road signs should have both Irish and English.

All Estate Names to be in Irish

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