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Bray incident 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families

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    #182
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    SherryD wrote: »
    Being a scumbag has nothing to do with the area you area from, I've known some scumbags from Ballsbridge and some genuinely lovely people from Tallaght and Ballymun. As someone who actually knew Shane he was not a scumbag, anyone who had met him even for a brief time would tell you he was a lovely guy and always friendly. As far as I'm aware its only one or two papers reporting it was premeditated, we just don't know the facts. I'm not excusing what he did, because it was a horrible despicible crime, but he obviously was not in a right state of mind and needed help which sadly he did not get. We can all easily say we'd never do something like that but at the end of the day if any of us were that desperate and clearly ill we do not know what we would be capable of.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0819/1224252874168.html

    Please, it just says in the article that he premeditated it, he first drove him home to see where he lived, then went to the supermarket to buy knives and kill one person and Injure 2 others, a Psycho pure and simple and yet people say on here he was a lovely guy:mad:.


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    #183
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    edit: ugh, nevermind.
    done with this.


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    #184
    SherryD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭SherryD


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0819/1224252874168.html

    Please, it just says in the article that he premeditated it, he first drove him home to see where he lived, then went to the supermarket to buy knives and kill one person and Injure 2 others, a Psycho pure and simple and yet people say on here he was a lovely guy:mad:.

    I had not seen that article. Like I said before I am in no way condoning his actions. I can't make you change your mind about your views on Shane, if I didn't know him I might have thought the same, but I did know him, and have for several years. I do know he was a lovely guy and he has clearly been unwell. In a way I do hope you never can understand my position because its taken a friend's death in tragic circumstances for me to realise that these stories are never black and white.


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    #185
    Gary ITR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,805 ✭✭✭✭Gary ITR


    If I'd have done this where I'm from (Inchicore) people on here would be talking about how it's only 2 scumbags from inner city Dublin dead.

    This was not the act of a decent person. This was the act of somebody who had an evil heart and mind. It wasn't a 'moment of madness' if he actually went to the shop and bought the bloody knives. He went out with murder on his mind.

    If it was one of my friends or a family member that did this I would condemn them to the last


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    #186
    Bubblefett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Bubblefett


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0819/1224252874168.html

    Please, it just says in the article that he premeditated it, he first drove him home to see where he lived, then went to the supermarket to buy knives and kill one person and Injure 2 others, a Psycho pure and simple and yet people say on here he was a lovely guy:mad:.

    That's a bit of an overly aggressive a message to post to someone who was one of his friends and odviously still upset.
    Glad you made you're point.
    The angry face really hammered it home.


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    #187
    thebullkf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    zuroph wrote: »
    Is any killer ever in a sane state of mind when committing the act? He may have had an underlying mental problem, that reamains to be disclosed, but for now, it reads like he just lost the rag and failed to control his emotions. He drove and bought knives. Premeditated. That was scumbaggy enough.

    thats my point.


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    #188
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Splendour wrote: »
    Of course it doesn't make it ok, but in anger we are all capable of doing things we regret. We don't know the state of this guys mind when he commited this crime so we cannot say if he was evil or sick.
    I don't think we can compare this guy to lads who go out every weekend with knives looking for trouble.
    Carry a knife: Your a wanker scumbag.

    Mike... wrote: »
    Isn't your last thread the same as what I said when you warned me with "you stay quiet too."

    What gives?
    STFU

    kazza90210 wrote: »
    I cant believe this thread hasnt been closed, he wasnt a "scumbag" and whats in the papers isnt the real story and none of you know the facts and what happened before saturday night.

    I know this a public forum and people are intitled to their opinions but not knowing the people and just coming out and saying some of the stuff that has been said here is digusting.

    Im not saying it wasnt a crime, but there was alot more behind this and I personally find it very hurtful to see the way some people just want to have a their say no matter how hurtful some people may find it.
    Stabbing someone makes you a scumbag.
    Been stabbed?
    Read on.

    Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »
    I suppose on a technical note he wouldn't be a criminal - as he hasn't been charged with any crime, for obvious reasons.

    I just think the whole thing is a tragedy. We would all know someone like this lad who gets obsessed with a girl and won't give up the notion. 99.9999% percent of people get over it, but some tiny percent of people just aren't made that way.

    He is an absolutely terrible horrible person for doing this, but he is not a scumbag.
    Been stabbed?
    Read on.

    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    It's depressing how people think that this is just an excuse to have a go at middle class people.

    One of my best mate's knows the victim, it's a horrible tragedy, and something that's scarily believable. Someone I was in school with a long time ago is in prison for killing someone, they were bullied and treated like shít and snapped. In this case, someone who was clearly unwell has done something few of us can fathom. And that's the point, we don't know why and what happened, is it really fair to speculate?
    Been stabbed?
    Read on.

    SherryD wrote: »
    Being a scumbag has nothing to do with the area you area from, I've known some scumbags from Ballsbridge and some genuinely lovely people from Tallaght and Ballymun. As someone who actually knew Shane he was not a scumbag, anyone who had met him even for a brief time would tell you he was a lovely guy and always friendly. As far as I'm aware its only one or two papers reporting it was premeditated, we just don't know the facts. I'm not excusing what he did, because it was a horrible despicible crime, but he obviously was not in a right state of mind and needed help which sadly he did not get. We can all easily say we'd never do something like that but at the end of the day if any of us were that desperate and clearly ill we do not know what we would be capable of.
    Been stabbed?

    I've been stabbed.
    Wasn't a bad wound, but it hurt and it bled. I also had to be tested for hepatitis (I'm clean).
    I'd class the person who stabbed me as a scumbag.
    I have no idea of his background, but the mother****er stabbed me because I didn't live in the same town as him.

    Now he may have had a tough upbringing or he may have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Either way, the **** stabbed me.

    Anyone who stabs someone else is a scumbag. I don't care what any of you may think of that person. He ****ing killed someone else.
    He took the life of someone.
    There is someone dead today who would be alive had they not been stabbed to death.
    Is that ok because the guy had some friends>?
    Fúck no.

    How about I kill one of you. Will it be ok because I have friends who will speak well of me?
    Fúck no. I'd be a scumbag.
    Cop the fúck on.
    Anyone who deliberately murders another person is a scumbag.


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    #189
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    SherryD wrote: »
    I had not seen that article. Like I said before I am in no way condoning his actions. I can't make you change your mind about your views on Shane, if I didn't know him I might have thought the same, but I did know him, and have for several years. I do know he was a lovely guy and he has clearly been unwell. In a way I do hope you never can understand my position because its taken a friend's death in tragic circumstances for me to realise that these stories are never black and white.
    It was a moment of madness when I stole my friend's van and tried to kill myself.
    The thing is, I went out of my way to not physically harm anyone else.
    It was the act of a scumbag. I am a scumbag for doing it. All of my friends can come along and say otherwise, but I know in my heart that I did wrong.

    The problem with this incident is that people are trying to place the blame on others.
    Personal responsibility needs to be mentioned here.
    If you deliberately set out to kill someone, then you are a murdering scumbag. It's as simple as that.


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    #190
    SherryD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭SherryD


    Terry wrote: »

    Been stabbed?

    I've been stabbed.
    Wasn't a bad wound, but it hurt and it bled. I also had to be tested for hepatitis (I'm clean).
    I'd class the person who stabbed me as a scumbag.
    I have no idea of his background, but the mother****er stabbed me because I didn't live in the same town as him.

    Now he may have had a tough upbringing or he may have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Either way, the **** stabbed me.

    Anyone who stabs someone else is a scumbag. I don't care what any of you may think of that person. He ****ing killed someone else.
    He took the life of someone.
    There is someone dead today who would be alive had they not been stabbed to death.
    Is that ok because the guy had some friends>?
    Fúck no.

    How about I kill one of you. Will it be ok because I have friends who will speak well of me?
    Fúck no. I'd be a scumbag.
    Cop the fúck on.
    Anyone who deliberately murders another person is a scumbag.

    Thankfully no I haven't been stabbed, but I have had a knife put to me on two occasions and luckily have been saved by others. One of the men who did it to me? Yes a complete scumbag. The other? No, a man who was mentally unstable.


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    #191
    zuroph
    Registered Users Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    SherryD wrote: »
    I had not seen that article. Like I said before I am in no way condoning his actions. I can't make you change your mind about your views on Shane, if I didn't know him I might have thought the same, but I did know him, and have for several years. I do know he was a lovely guy and he has clearly been unwell. In a way I do hope you never can understand my position because its taken a friend's death in tragic circumstances for me to realise that these stories are never black and white.
    bubblefett wrote: »
    That's a bit of an overly aggressive a message to post to someone who was one of his friends and odviously still upset.
    Glad you made you're point.
    The angry face really hammered it home.
    Sherry,

    I'd suggest that this is all a bit raw to you at the moment, and perhaps, right now, arguing on internet forums as to whether your friend was a scumbag or not is not going to achieve anything good for you, or help you deal with it. For your own sake, i suggest you avoid threads like this for the time being.

    Bubble,

    The thread exists to discuss the issue, and just because someone says they know the killer doesnt mean the conversation is over.


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    #192
    MarkHobBray1977
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭MarkHobBray1977


    Lots of emotion here , but its as simple as this in my eyes....

    The guy killed someone...He is a murderer and a criminal...simple....

    My heart goes out to BOTH families involved...But the FACTS are that this young lad PURPOSELY killed someone... Scumbag , knacker , name calling means nothing...He is a murderer....All other issues , such as class , his upbringing etc...dont come into it

    RIP to the deceased


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    #193
    Sharpshooter
    Registered Users Posts: 31,859 ✭✭✭✭Sharpshooter


    Terry wrote: »
    Carry a knife: Your a wanker scumbag.



    STFU



    Stabbing someone makes you a scumbag.
    Been stabbed?
    Read on.



    Been stabbed?
    Read on.



    Been stabbed?
    Read on.



    Been stabbed?

    I've been stabbed.
    Wasn't a bad wound, but it hurt and it bled. I also had to be tested for hepatitis (I'm clean).
    I'd class the person who stabbed me as a scumbag.
    I have no idea of his background, but the mother****er stabbed me because I didn't live in the same town as him.

    Now he may have had a tough upbringing or he may have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Either way, the **** stabbed me.

    Anyone who stabs someone else is a scumbag. I don't care what any of you may think of that person. He ****ing killed someone else.
    He took the life of someone.
    There is someone dead today who would be alive had they not been stabbed to death.
    Is that ok because the guy had some friends>?
    Fúck no.

    How about I kill one of you. Will it be ok because I have friends who will speak well of me?
    Fúck no. I'd be a scumbag.
    Cop the fúck on.
    Anyone who deliberately murders another person is a scumbag.

    Circumstances.

    You are concentrating on the deed and not what led up to it

    Don't get me wrong here but the only people who know what happened for definite are the ones in the scenario.

    According to posts here from people who knew the guy, none of them can believe it.


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    #194
    thebullkf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    Terry wrote: »
    It was a moment of madness when I stole my friend's van and tried to kill myself.
    The thing is, I went out of my way to not physically harm anyone else.
    It =was the act of a scumbag. I am a scumbag for doing it. All of my friends can come along and say otherwise, but I know in my heart that I did wrong.
    :confused::confused::confused::confused:









    The problem with this incident is that people are trying to place the blame on others.
    Personal responsibility needs to be mentioned here.
    If you deliberately set out to kill someone, then you are a murdering scumbag. It's as simple as that.


    +1+1+1+1+1


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    #195
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Driven derangement, insane jealousy, the gnawing erosion of his status speeded by anxiety is more than likely not something that had visited this young man before and he was mentally ill equipped to handle these emotions.
    Catastrophic, depressingly pointless but these blips on the human condition have occured since we wandered as a species out of the cave hand in hand. I don't consider that to be a scumbag.

    Been stabbed? Yep...in the ankle of all places and by a scumbag.
    Been punched by a jealous boyfriend? Yep, he wasn't a scumbag though.


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    #196
    thebullkf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,006 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    MarkHobBray1977 wrote: »
    Lots of emotion here , but its as simple as this in my eyes....

    The guy killed someone...He is a murderer and a criminal...simple....

    My heart goes out to BOTH families involved...But the FACTS are that this young lad PURPOSELY killed someone... Scumbag , knacker , name calling means nothing...He is a murderer....All other issues , such as class , his upbringing etc...dont come into it

    RIP to the deceased

    wrong...wrong....wrong....

    your environment shapes you,
    i know good people with horrific parents,conversely i know assholes with superb parents.
    Fact remains both sets of parents had some sort of influence on these people-most of us try and use the good whilst ignoring the bad-some don't.(i am NOT blaming that guys family)

    likewise for our environments-i have true friends from josephs mansions,ballymun,southill in limerick...
    who've taken their poxy upbringing and turned it into something positive-
    they are the minority alas.

    point remains-something made him this way,some switch obviously went off in his head-not saying his family,class etc caused it but it had a part to play,maybe infinitismal....he didn't just decide to murder someone-he snapped.
    some of the comments made here by ALL posters, MODS included are disgraceful.-emotion riding high.

    May god rest their souls,grant the families peace.
    goodnight.;)


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    #197
    MarkHobBray1977
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭MarkHobBray1977


    people trying to justify or "understand" this horrible crime , cause of his " circumstances" actual sicken me....

    my last post on this......

    Murder is murder....no matter if you are a king or gypsy .... ure personal life circumstances dont lead you to murder....

    thats the problem with people today...trying "understand" everything..FFS...wrong is just wrong, murder is murder.... GET A GRIP !

    ill leave it for the rest of you to debate from here...

    all the best


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    #198
    Sharpshooter
    Registered Users Posts: 31,859 ✭✭✭✭Sharpshooter


    MarkHobBray1977 wrote: »
    Murder is murder....no matter if you are a king or gypsy .... ure personal life circumstances dont lead you to murder....

    I think you will find that you are posting in a thread where the topic is just that.


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    #199
    MarkHobBray1977
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭MarkHobBray1977


    hence my point.

    good night


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    #200
    Mike...
    Registered Users Posts: 956 ✭✭✭Mike...


    thebullkf wrote: »
    fair question,i know you question mods privately BUT mike was dismissed
    in public.
    surely you're allowed to respond in kind-mod or not:confused::confused:

    Thanks for the support man
    thebullkf wrote: »
    not so fair methinks:confused::confused:

    or should this be in feedback??

    Starting a thread in feedback now
    Terry wrote: »
    STFU

    I have left a thread on the Feedback forum regarding your response.


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    #201
    Owwmykneecap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭Owwmykneecap


    Wow what an utterly awful thread, people of all angles trying to shoehorn in the political and class philosophies on the back of a double murder suicide.

    Class has nothing to do with it , and as for the "knifecrime" issue, that's about the difference between someone who goes out with weapons on purpose, and someone who uses a weapon (possibly just nearby), during an incident.
    At the time, it seemed he didn't plan his attack.
    That might have changed.

    As for the notion that why he did it doesn't matter, how are we supposed to prevent it happening again?
    Typical Irish response; just forget about it, it won't bring them back.

    No, it won't but maybe just maybe we could help prevent a repeat.

    I actually knew the guy and thought he was a bit out there, but i wouldnt have thought he'd do something like this.

    It shows how we need to have proper mental health strategies in this country, implemented in schools while people are still young.
    No one normal does something like this.

    Anyway this whole thing is just ****ing awful and an absolute senseless waste, to just forget about it would be a crime


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    #202
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    im sure i had tom dunne in the title in this thread, he was the one to say the stupid thing, i was nearly going to post in the tom dunne radio thread or media instead of ah

    again mr tom dunne how was it not a knife crime?

    and the rest of the media how was this tragedy as opposed to slaughter

    is the general reaction to these types of events to do with remorse?

    the fabled yob on the street who attacks you viciously cos he's bored and laughs about it and shows no remorse in court is that different to a guy who kills himself after he kills someone...

    but perhaps killing yourself afterwards is a way to evade the consequences and punishment and could be seen as equally remorseless and cowardly


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    #203
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Dudess wrote: »
    How the guy who did it "isn't a scumbag" is beyond me...

    I'm pretty shocked by the snobbery on AH (yes, really) - some posts on the thread about the babies born to different members of the same family are actually a bit depressing... :(

    Class politics can be so nasty (I watched the film Lawn Dogs, about that very thing, last night - nearly had me in tears) - and I've made similar objections to reverse snobbery here, so no, I'm not "trying to be PC"...

    With all due respect that is a load of rubbish.

    Had the guy any previous history of violence?
    Was he "known to the gardaí"?
    Was there a history of anti social activity in his family?

    Of course what he did was totally wrong in the extreme, but while in no way excusing it, seems to have been a crime of passion, a one off .
    Who knows how any of ones children will turn out,and who knows that despite doing everything "right",that something somewhere will tip them off the rails and do something that has such terrible consequences as what happened in Bray.

    To call someone like that a "scumbag" is totally off the wall and smacks of another agenda or chip on ones shoulder.


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    #204
    Micilin Muc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    With all due respect that is a load of rubbish.

    Had the guy any previous history of violence?
    Was he "known to the gardaí"?
    Was there a history of anti social activity in his family?

    Of course what he did was totally wrong in the extreme, but while in no way excusing it, seems to have been a crime of passion, a one off .
    Who knows how any of ones children will turn out,and who knows that despite doing everything "right",that something somewhere will tip them off the rails and do something that has such terrible consequences as what happened in Bray.

    To call someone like that a "scumbag" is totally off the wall and smacks of another agenda or chip on ones shoulder.

    Calling someone a 'scumbag' is also an easy way to distance yourself from that person's actions.

    Recognising that this person was actually a normal person takes maturity and wisdom. He was no different to the rest of us.


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    #205
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    With all due respect that is a load of rubbish.

    Had the guy any previous history of violence?
    Was he "known to the gardaí"?
    Was there a history of anti social activity in his family?

    Of course what he did was totally wrong in the extreme, but while in no way excusing it, seems to have been a crime of passion, a one off .
    Who knows how any of ones children will turn out,and who knows that despite doing everything "right",that something somewhere will tip them off the rails and do something that has such terrible consequences as what happened in Bray.

    To call someone like that a "scumbag" is totally off the wall and smacks of another agenda or chip on ones shoulder.

    You don't need previous to be a scumbag.

    Knifing one person 8 times and another a few times as well as knifing the girl in the back is scummy.


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    #206
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    gurramok wrote: »
    You don't need previous to be a scumbag.

    Knifing one person 8 times and another a few times as well as knifing the girl in the back is scummy.


    Maybe we need the definition of a "scumbag" and "scummy"


    Knifing someone is most definitely criminal in the extreme and indeed
    a most serious and heinous crime.

    However rightly or wrongly I would not describe the perp as a scumbag.


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    #207
    zuroph
    Registered Users Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    It seems we're all agreeing, just that we have different definitions of the word scumbag.


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    #208
    Cianos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Cianos


    What this thread needs is a clear definition of the word "scumbag"...trying to define the person involved in this case against a word that everyone has a different idea of is just a waste of time.


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    #209
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Maybe we need the definition of a "scumbag" and "scummy"


    Knifing someone is most definitely criminal in the extreme and indeed
    a most serious and heinous crime.

    However rightly or wrongly I would not describe the perp as a scumbag.

    He murdered an innocent man and attempted murder another 2 people leaving them with possible life long injuries, thats a scumbag been scummy


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    #210
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    gurramok wrote: »
    He murdered an innocent man and attempted murder another 2 people leaving them with possible life long injuries, thats a scumbag been scummy


    To me that's a person who probably needed help murdering an innocent person and injuring others.


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    #211
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    To me that's a person who probably needed help murdering an innocent person and injuring others.

    So anyone who murders anyone needs help?


This discussion has been closed.
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