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Bray incident 'Not a knifecrime' because they came from good families

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    #32
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Anyone who grabs a knife to injury a person when not being threatened themselves is a nutjob scumbag. I'm sorry for his family, like I'm sorry for the family of the guy he murdered, and the girl he attempted to murder, but my sympathy for his family doesn't make him any less of a nutjob scumbag.

    In a lot of ways it's far worse that he came from a good family, he had every chance in life, and this is the best he could with it?


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    #33
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    If you get stabby, then you lose the right to protection in AH.
    I don't care who you are, who you know, where you are from or what your family is like. If you stab someone, you are a scumbag. Circumstances be damned. You shouldn't have been carrying a knife in the first place.


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    #34
    Hitchhiker's Guide to...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    Thought it was sad to read this story in the Times talking about the funeral notice from the person who did the killing:

    His removal and funeral will take place on Thursday to the Church of the Assumption in Dalkey at 10am.

    A funeral notice described him as the beloved son of Leonie and Patrick, and stepson of Tony.

    He has four brothers, Liam, Jake, Jack, Henry, and two sisters Lucy and Holly.

    Should it not have been written as 'beloved son of...' and 'beloved brother of...' or did his brothers and sisters not want to be associated with the message?

    / i'm really not sure if this post is appropriate and it does invite speculation. I will report it myself, and mods pls delete it if you don't think its okay.


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    #35
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »
    Thought it was sad to read this story in the Times talking about the funeral notice from the person who did the killing:




    Should it not have been written as 'beloved son of...' and 'beloved brother of...' or did his brothers and sisters not want to be associated with the message?

    / i'm really not sure if this post is appropriate and it does invite speculation. I will report it myself, and mods pls delete it if you don't think its okay.

    Things like that are always sad when you put a human context on them. it makes the killer seem far more real. But it doesn't alter that he committed an unspeakably cowardly and pathetic act.


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    #36
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    It's more sad for his relations - absolutely heartbreaking. :(


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    #37
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    Dudess wrote: »
    It's more sad for his relations - absolutely heartbreaking. :(

    Exactly. They have to live with this - unlike him.


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    #38
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »
    Thought it was sad to read this story in the Times talking about the funeral notice from the person who did the killing:




    Should it not have been written as 'beloved son of...' and 'beloved brother of...' or did his brothers and sisters not want to be associated with the message?

    / i'm really not sure if this post is appropriate and it does invite speculation. I will report it myself, and mods pls delete it if you don't think its okay.

    I think you might be reading too much into it.

    My affections toward my siblings will remain steadfast regardless of their deeds


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    #39
    Hitchhiker's Guide to...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    snyper wrote: »
    I think you might be reading too much into it.

    Actually i'm sure I am. It could easily be that the Times was just summarising the notice.
    snyper wrote: »
    My affections toward my siblings will remain steadfast regardless of their deeds

    Same here. Which its why I thought it was really sad (based on the way I interpreted it).


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    #40
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    If i'm upset at something, i don't stab people for it. I'd mourn, cry, whatever to get over it, i would not hurt them as i have responsibility and a conscience.

    The sad thing about the whole story was that they were so young, just 22. Whole life ahead of them, if the murderer only realised it wasn't the end of the world whatever had upset him into doing the deed.

    It was a murder by knife hence it was a knife crime.


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    #41
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    for me the difference is some one who carries a knife or other weapon who is happy to use same in rows after drinks every saturday - scumbag

    and stabbings that occur in these situations tend to be what is called "knifecrime"

    I think what Tom Dunne was talking about was the initial rush by media to portray the events as a drunken knifecrime row (probably after what happened elsewhere over the last week) and his belief that it was something different..while I'd agree, he did seem to make it sound very tragic, even romantic, if thats not too perverse to say

    someone who happens to use a knife in a crime when obviously going over the edge, as in this case - criminal? sure, but not a scumbag per se and not what I would term knifecrime

    however this guy stabbed three people and then killed himself, an horrific event for those involved and neighbours etc


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    #42
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    gurramok wrote: »
    If i'm upset at something, i don't stab people for it. I'd mourn, cry, whatever to get over it, i would not hurt them as i have responsibility and a conscience.


    if i ever felt I understood why someone did something like this I'd be worried...people like him are obviously not in a normal state of mind...I cannot see how someone would see such actions as the answer to a problem


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    #43
    Eulick D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Eulick D


    The key to cutting knife crime is tougher sentences

    It is with inexhaustible vehemence that I deviate from this standpoint. The mere hypothesis of incomprehensible lexicon will indubitably provide more impetus for the utilisation of such a sharp bladed instrument.


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    #44
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,898 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    The guy was probably severely mentally ill and unbalanced as evidenced by him topping himself after going over the edge. It's a different scenario to your average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

    Nothing to do with class imo. I'll apply the term scumbag to a south Dublin middle class rugby lout as happily as I'll apply it to Junkie Joe from the inner city.


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    #45
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    The key to cutting knife crime is tougher sentences

    How specifically would your proposal have stopped the knife crime at issue in this thread?
    The guy was probably severely mentally ill and unbalanced as evidenced by him topping himself after going over the edge. It's a different scenario to your average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

    There are no scapegoats in this one. I have to say that your comment is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read. More probably he did it in a fit of passion. If he was severely mentally ill in that kind of middle class neighbourhood he would've been treated and been on medication. You can't blame the mentally ill on this.
    average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

    That comment beggars belief. Are middle class stabbings somehow better, more refined, less troubling then scumbags stabbing other scumbags? That's idiotic.

    Put it like this. If you stabbed two friends you'd be pretty suicidal yourself. You wouldn't need to be mentally ill, just very angry and/or jealous.


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    #46
    Eulick D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Eulick D


    Look closer.


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    #47
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,898 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    The only way you would have stopped this is by having routine psychiatric screening for the entire population. And that's just not practical.

    Second best option would probably be to promote the available mental health services more.


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    #48
    nlgbbbblth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    Stark wrote: »
    The guy was probably severely mentally ill and unbalanced as evidenced by him topping himself after going over the edge. It's a different scenario to your average scumbag going out and stabbing people for petty material gain/just for a bit of Saturday night fun.

    exactly

    anyone who can't see past this is being deliberately obtuse.

    I imagine it was pre-meditated and he did have a motive [driven by jealousy].

    Not the same as a random stabbing of someone unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    And since when it is a crime to be middle class?


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    #49
    Unknown Soldier
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭Unknown Soldier


    A sad story, like all crime and death. You have to pity those left behind as well as the deceased.

    I don't think they were scumbags as such. I didn't see any tracksuits in any of the pics.


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    #50
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,024 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    the attitude to murder suicide sickens me in this country,brush it under the carpet till the next time and the next time

    call them what they are

    murderers


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    #51
    nlgbbbblth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    the attitude to murder suicide sickens me in this country,brush it under the carpet till the next time and the next time

    call them what they are

    murderers

    ...and suicide victims.

    I don't think the papers mentioned suicide in this case.

    Instead the usual intelligence-insulting line of "not looking for anyone else in connection with his death" was trotted out. :rolleyes:


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    #52
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Unknown Soldier wrote: »
    A sad story, like all crime and death. You have to pity those left behind as well as the deceased.

    I don't think they were scumbags as such. I didn't see any tracksuits in any of the pics.

    Scumbags come in all forms of clothing. The visible ones have tracksuits and the invisible ones do not, they are equally dangerous and cunning.


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    #53
    Mr.Obvious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Mr.Obvious


    TirNaNog. wrote: »
    Not the same as criminals?
    That person was a criminal,Pure scum ,a wolf in sheeps clothing.

    If you wear a tracksuit and are a cnut you are a scumbag.
    If you wear a suit and are a cnut you're savvy.


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    #54
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Rabies wrote: »
    MOD COMMENT


    Facts are required when backing up a story.

    This is a serious topic, especially for those close to the family.

    I'm reopening this thread.

    Off topic trollish comments have been deleted.
    Any more will follow with warning and/or bans.


    As required here are some links to the facts from online media.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/romantic-rivalry-linked-to-bray-tragedy-422931.html

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0817/breaking4.htm

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0817/bray.html

    i was talking bout tom dunnes description of the events theres no link to recording of what he said.

    theres definitely a bias towards protecting the middle class and be dammed with the lower class in all forms of media


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    #55
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Barry_Scott wrote: »
    Have a little respect for the families and shut up with the stupid comments.

    Scumbags who get stabbed in a fight have families who might be on Boards too. What's the difference? Should we show more respect because the murderer didn't wear a tracksuit? Or because they're middle class? The double standards shown here are truly sickening. Get a grip.


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    #56
    Unknown Soldier
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭Unknown Soldier


    <snip> Serious topic - Hagar <snip>


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    #57
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    exactly

    anyone who can't see past this is being deliberately obtuse.

    I imagine it was pre-meditated and he did have a motive [driven by jealousy].

    Not the same as a random stabbing of someone unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    And since when it is a crime to be middle class?

    sorry are you saying premeditated murder is a better class of murder?

    and we have others saying it was a moment of madness?


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    #58
    LadyE
    Registered Users Posts: 9,021 ✭✭✭LadyE


    Confab wrote: »
    If he was severely mentally ill in that kind of middle class neighbourhood he would've been treated and been on medication. You can't blame the mentally ill on this.

    Put it like this. If you stabbed two friends you'd be pretty suicidal yourself. You wouldn't need to be mentally ill, just very angry and/or jealous.

    How do you know he wasnt. You dont.

    This is a very tragic thing to happen. Three families are devastated by it.

    I hope to god this raises mental illness awareness in this country and gets it out of the "snap out of it" mentality it seems to be in.


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    #59
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Unknown Soldier wrote: »
    How does one attain this invisability you speak of?

    One is most interested.

    Don't wear a tracksuit. Wear fancy clothes if you may. The person is still a wolf in a tracksuit or a Brown Thomas suit.

    Its the person inside thats the problem, not the clothes.


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    #60
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    LadyE wrote: »
    How do you know he wasnt. You dont.

    This is a very tragic thing to happen. Three families are devastated by it.

    I hope to god this raises mental illness awareness in this country and gets it out of the "snap out of it" mentality it seems to be in.

    I simply doubt he was mentally ill. I have a wealth of personal experience dealing with mentally ill people, and generally they don't do what he did. I do agree that the general attitude to mental illness in this country is prehistoric and utterly unhelpful.


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    #61
    nlgbbbblth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    theres definitely a bias towards protecting the middle class and be dammed with the lower class in all forms of media

    That's a perception bandied about by middle class self-loathers. You may be one of them.

    Compare two cases

    - Anabels: Four posh boys with no previous convictions kill one of their contemporaries. Get quite lenient sentences. Media uproar all through the trial. Constant focus on their upbringing/backgrounds with the emphasis that they should have known better etc.

    - New Ross: Eight working class dudes from tough estates and a prior reputation for being pricks kill a Swedish flower seller. I know this because I grew up there. Get even lighter sentences. No media uproar bar cursory reporting of the case. No focus whatsoever on their backgrounds.

    Who are the Gardai more likely to target?

    - A bunch of middle class students on a Mayday protest.

    - A group of working class dudes openly dealing drugs on the Quays
    lostexpectation wrote: »
    sorry are you saying premeditated murder is a better class of murder?

    A jealous and spurned guy with revenge on his mind is not going to be interested in stabbing someone other than his intended target.

    A tooled-up nutcase who carries a knife every time he goes out sees every vulnerable person as a target. Rob 'em - knife 'em - f*ck 'em.

    I know which one I'd rather face.


This discussion has been closed.
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