The Sub 3 Support Thread

SUNGOD · 13-07-2009 6:31pm

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

when i ran dublin 08 i just ran by miles i did no specific marathon training except a LSR.
what i mean is i did no tempo or marathon paced runs and did not use a garmin etc so never knew my pace.
now in saying that i did race regularly in the 2 years previous and all my shorter times were pointing towards 3 hours so i knew i was on the right track.
i would be confident if i got a good training programme under my belt with tempo and MP runs i would go sub 3.
if i had of having a bit more luck on the day i could have easily finishing 4 seconds under 3 hours instead of 4 seconds over 3 hours.

Slogger Jogger · 13-07-2009 9:19pm

I came closest to 3 hrs in my recent marathon in Edinburgh by doing it with absolutely no expectations. The previous marathon 8 weeks before where I went all out to achieve sub 3, I did a terrible time. So, personally I run better when I'm not putting myself under pressure.

MayoRoadRunner · 13-07-2009 10:12pm

First up great idea for a thread.

On the subject of milage I agree with TFBubendorfer that quantity is personal and I know that if i ran even close to 80 miles in one week I would be good for nothing for a month!
Ran first marathon (DCM 08) in 3.10 on really low and inconsistent milage due to shin splints for month of August - 3 'good weeks' of 40,30 and 60 mpw in September and the rest were all low 20's pw. Did zero speed work either apart from 5 and 10 mile at race series.
The last 6 miles of the marathon were a lot harder than I had mentally prepared myself for and dropped a minute a mile for the last 6 miles. Feel a lot wiser now and think I can make a fair stab at sub 3 this year. Will defo up the mileage but not planning on doing anything over 50 a week.
This thread is going to be invaluable for the next 3 months just as the forum was to me last year. Keep up the good work lads!

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aero2k · 14-07-2009 8:50am

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

I wish I knew the answer to this! I did the '83 DCM in 3:17:46 on 12 weeks training - I lost about 15 mins in the last 6 or 7 miles. Roll on to '08, and having been a pretty serious competitive cyclist for some of the years in between, and a recreational runner for about 2 years, I followed the First programme, which had 1 LSR, 1 tempo and 1 speed workout plus 3 days cross training per week. I got to half way in 1:31 (I had run 7:45 and 7:30 for the first two miles) and I felt good, but I began to slow from 14 miles on, dramatically so after 20 miles. So what went wrong? Here are a few possibilitites:

Not enough specific training - I was only running 30-35 miles per week
Not enough long runs on the road - thighs siezed up very badly
Not enough respect for the distance - I thought it would be just a bit harder than 2 half marathons
Unrealistic expectations - McMillan predicted a 3:06-3:07 marathon from my 10m and 1/2m times. (I made this worse by saying "it was really hot the day of the 1/2m, so I can subtract 2 mins as it'll be cold on the big day.") I believe if I had aimed for 3:10 on the day I'd have got it.
Not enough fluid - I carried approx 1 litre with me but only managed to drink about 2/3 of it.
Choice of shoe? I decided to run in my racing flats (DS Racer). I blamed them afterwards for the painful thighs, but in retrospect I had absolutely no joint pains or other niggles, so it probably wasn't the shoes. I think running fast downhill through the park might have done a bit of damage..
Pacing. This is going to sound a bit contradictory as I've already admitted starting too fast, however I felt comfortable running around 6:50-6:55, but then someone threw in a 6:30 ish mile and I think that did serious damage from which I couldn't recover. I was going by my watch and the mile markers, but as of yesterday I have a Garmin.

On the positive side I got things like diet and rest right, and I arrived on the starting line feeling in top shape. My big regret is I let the bad time (3:22) discourage me and I didn't get back into serious training until May.

Abhainn · 14-07-2009 9:31am

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

Hi Rusty Gogs
Think this will be a very popular thread as we head into the Autumn. There must be 5 - 10 of us hoping to break the sub 3.

Berlin 2008 - 3:01:00. Took gels at 10 and 16 miles, didn't bother taking a 3rd(not really fond of them) and should have taken one at 22 miles or so. I was possibly a bit dehydrated also even though I did take on water at each station.
Was on target 2 miles to go but it slowly slipped away - So ran out of gas.

Did Dublin 4 weeks later in 3:03:00 having to take 2 toilet stops and not even intending to go that fast. Took my gels though this time.

Marathon prep was 10 weeks (did some tri’s last summer).
Max weekly miles = 55 (3 weeks)
Long runs = 21 miles x 3
MP runs = 10 miles (not long enough on reflection)
Tempo / Interval’s = Alternate each week
1 half marathon race 5 weeks before – Time 1:24.

dermCu · 14-07-2009 10:05am

For what its worth I went 3:15, 3:10, 2:55.
The big difference for me between the 3:10 and 2:55 was a step up in mileage from around 40 mpw to 70 mpw.
I was consistently over 60 mpw for at least 6 months prior to the 2:55. I raced and ran tempo runs when I felt like it but for me the consistently higher mileage made the difference.

I agree with what’s been said earlier; higher mileage is a personal thing. I wouldn’t try and push it on anyone.
Some people can do it on less while others will benefit from more.
However I honestly believe that there is a large chunk of aspiring sub 3 runners who could make big advances just by running consistently higher mileage. The key being consistency.

Peckham · 14-07-2009 11:06am

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

For me it was purely race strategy, or more specifically toilet strategy. Drank a bit too much fluid that morning. Felt the need to go to the loo on the start line, but didn't take the option of relieving myself into a bottle. Held on until the Park, nipped behind a tree. Then went a bit too fast for a few miles trying to catch up with Sungod. Realised my mistake very quickly, and spent the last quarter of the race very annoyed with myself and struggling to hold pace. (For the few here who don't know, I finished 3:00:00).

If only I hadn't drunk so much fluid....if only I'd used an empty bottle on the startline.....if only the appeal of running with Sungod wasn't so strong that I didn't speed up

.....

On the speed v mileage issue. I stuck with P&D <55 mile plan and increased some of the longer runs, but never ran more than 60 miles (if I even did that). Consistently 50ish per week.

Am sticking with that plan this time for Berlin, but going for higher quality long runs. Don't think I'll do any weeks much longer than 55 miles. That said am in a bit of crisis mode at the moment and this week looks like a write-off.

cfitz · 14-07-2009 11:11am

Peckham wrote: »

(For the few here who don't know, I finished 3:00:00).

I'm curious - did you kick like mad for the last 100m and just miss out, or did you only realise afterwards that you were so close, or did you just have no energy left to kick at the end?

lecheile · 14-07-2009 11:16am

Planning an ambitious sub-3 for my first marathon in Dublin this year. Getting into the swing of programme with 50-60 miles per week and doing 1k interval sessions at 6min pace.

McMillan says I'm nearly there (based on recent 10k time) so we will have to see how accurate it is in a few months

Peckham · 14-07-2009 12:23pm

cfitz wrote: »

I'm curious - did you kick like mad for the last 100m and just miss out, or did you only realise afterwards that you were so close, or did you just have no energy left to kick at the end?

2 miles out I had just under 15 minutes to bring me home in 2:59, which on a normal day was plenty of time (but I had been hurting badly from UCD flyover onwards). From memory, I think I did the penultimate mile at about 7:15 which was fine, but didn't realise I was slowing down severely. Coming along Clare Street I saw the race clock which was in the 2:59:50s which caught me by surprise, so I went hell for leather to get across the line. Went to stop my watch crossing the line, but my finger missed the button. Eventually stopped it on 3:00:05, so didn't know my time until I got a text from a friend later in the afternoon to say my time on the website was 3:00:00.

TFBubendorfer · 14-07-2009 12:27pm

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

I've tried and failed twice, Dublin 08 and Boston 09. In hindsight, sub-3 was probably just out of my reach ability-wise, but both times I ran the first half at goal pace trying to force the issue. It probably cost me a couple of minutes on each try; but who's going to aim at running 3:02 ?

As already mentioned (sorry for hijacking the thread for a while), I decided to try and forget about sub-3 for a while. It's a mental issue more than anything else.

One other thing that has been mentioned as well, if you're close to the target it might help to run a flat marathon. Berlin is the obvious choice.

cfitz · 14-07-2009 12:46pm

Peckham wrote: »

2 miles out I had just under 15 minutes to bring me home in 2:59, which on a normal day was plenty of time (but I had been hurting badly from UCD flyover onwards). From memory, I think I did the penultimate mile at about 7:15 which was fine, but didn't realise I was slowing down severely. Coming along Clare Street I saw the race clock which was in the 2:59:50s which caught me by surprise, so I went hell for leather to get across the line. Went to stop my watch crossing the line, but my finger missed the button. Eventually stopped it on 3:00:05, so didn't know my time until I got a text from a friend later in the afternoon to say my time on the website was 3:00:00.

Ouch. Still, you should be able to get it down to below 2:55, and then you won't care about that second!

Lex Luther · 14-07-2009 4:36pm

Hi all , this is a great thread I've just discovered - very interesting last 20 minutes reading the 5 pages of comments and stories !

I'm running Dublin in October off a 3.00.04 PB but in the end gut wrenchingly disappointing run in Edinburgh last May.

Will be interesting to follow peoples progress over next couple of months.

In case anyone is interested my own progress so far has been as follows:

2005 3.21, (Dublin)
2007 3.20, (connemara) , 3.10 (Dublin)
2008 3.12.50 (boston ) 3.03.30 (Dublin - 1.32.30 , 1.31 splits)
2009 3.00.04 (edinburgh - 1.30.01 , 1.30.03 splits)

Plan this time is to increase overall mileage by 10% to max 65 and run first half at sub 1.29 and try to hang on.

Good luck to all.
LL

--amadeus-- · 16-07-2009 9:47am

I haven't been able to keep up with stuff properly (damn real life) but really interesting reading in here. The key really does seem to be consistency, irrespective of your mileage per week.

What kind of time drops are you all aiming at? I'm hoping to drop 6 minutes, which is a fair amount but should be achievable. Changes I've made (or am planning to make) to make it happen are mainly intensity & consistency. 4 weeks in and mileage is in teh mid-high 40s every week and LSRs are already up at 18 (20 tomorrow). I'll be in teh 50s from next week and hoping to peak above 60 and hit those long runs every week, something I haven't done before.

Peckham · 16-07-2009 10:38am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What kind of time drops are you all aiming at?

1 second!

Seriously, if I was offered that now, I'd grab it with both hands. Hoping to go at 6:45 pace with is 2:58 or thereabouts.

Consistency does indeed seem to be the strong message coming from this thread, and I fear that could be my downfall. Am still not back on the road following my operation last Friday, and looks like it will be next Monday before I'll be back. That will be a break of 10 days from training, which coupled with my wedding break really casts a shadow over my training. Since late-March/April, my training would be as follows:
- 4 weeks building up to 50 miles per week
- 2 weeks of 30-40 miles
- 3.5 weeks off
- 4 weeks building back up to 50 miles per week
- 1 week of 30 miles
- 1.5 weeks off

...so from next week to Berlin I'm looking at:
- 1 week of 40 miles
- 1 week of 50 miles
- 5 weeks of 50+ miles (peaking at 60)
- 2 week taper

Endurance is going to be a problem for me, so I keep on rethinking my long run strategy. At the moment I'm thinking 3 x 20/21 mile, 3 x 18 miles (at least 2 of these being done as progression runs).

Am trying to remain optimistic, but have a feeling I could be heading to London next April still seeking my sub-3!

asimonov · 16-07-2009 11:12am

I'm looking for *gulp* 23 minute drop. Hoping to get it with

- 21 week training programme
- 12 weeks at 65 miles
- 6 days per week training
- maxing at 2 x 23 mile lsr's, mix fast finish and ord. lsr's
- proper structure & session, tempo, interval & pmp
- joined a club so have training partners for key sessions
- gave up smoking & improved diet
- dropped some weight

From reading accounts above, it's a very thin line, so hopefully will have the wherewithall and luck to manage the race itself ok.

Lex Luther · 16-07-2009 11:23am

Hi just a passing thought. If anyone in this group is running Adidas 10 mile in August it would be interesting to compare and contrast our relative progress towards the sub 3 marathon. Also interesting to see how our 10 mile target times would compare to the actual achieved and what this might mean for our marathon tagets and planning. ( Well interesting to me anyway !:rolleyes:).

We could continue to track progress in a similar way for the half two if there are enough people in the same boat ?

Anyway just in case this seems worth doing my 10 mile target is sub 1.03.30.

LL

wizwill · 16-07-2009 11:45am

Attempting my first sub-3, mcmillan times suggest its possible (1.25.19 HM - converting to a 2.59.56). Whilst possible, experience and a read through this thread tells me its not probable, but hey, if training goes well and i stay injury free who knows!

What runners are you planning to use for your races? I have tried Asics DS Trainer and they dont work for me, I train in Kayano's and the drop at the back of the runner (in the DS) put too much strain on my achilles and my calf and has lead to three injuries the three times i have worn them. I am using Brooks T6 for 5k, 10k, and HM, I really like them although they are recommended up to HM, I would love to test them on race day but dont think its sensible.

I have seen many recommendations of the Nike Luna range, the new luna glide look nice if a little heavier than the trainer or racer. Any thoughts on these or other recommendations

asimonov · 16-07-2009 11:56am

I'm aiming for a 62 min 10 mile time, but I'm doing one in two weeks in ballynonty as well as the addidas one.

Wizwill, I think I'm going to run in my Brooks st4's

Sosa · 16-07-2009 12:20pm

asimonov wrote: »

I'm aiming for a 62 min 10 mile time, but I'm doing one in two weeks in ballynonty as well as the addidas one.

Wizwill, I think I'm going to run in my Brooks st4's

Myself and sungod did Ballynonty last year....mile 10 felt like 1.5m.
Scorching hot day also which did not help,but we got a nice t-shirt and got stuffed with the best of sandwiches,tart,buns and tea in the community hall which is actually a semi-detached in a small estate.

Good luck

asimonov · 16-07-2009 2:37pm

Sosa wrote: »

Myself and sungod did Ballynonty last year....mile 10 felt like 1.5m.
Scorching hot day also which did not help,but we got a nice t-shirt and got stuffed with the best of sandwiches,tart,buns and tea in the community hall which is actually a semi-detached in a small estate.

Good luck

Sounds both ominous and delicious. Looking forward to it. What do your reckon on the castle 5k, is it gonna be fast?

aero2k · 16-07-2009 3:42pm

asimonov wrote: »

I'm looking for *gulp* 23 minute drop.

Me too!
McMillan had me at 3:06-3:07 based on my 10 and 1/2m times from last year, but I blew it on the day by going for a sub 3 that I was never going to get. I'm running 7 days a week (just got a Garmin so I'll be able to post my weekly mileage next week) and I'll have about 20 weeks focused training on top of a reasonable base. Best of luck!

Sosa · 16-07-2009 3:45pm

asimonov wrote: »

Sounds both ominous and delicious. Looking forward to it. What do your reckon on the castle 5k, is it gonna be fast?

I think ( hope ) so,the flyer said it will be...but they all say that.
TBH its the only reason i am doing it,its playing havoc with my marathon training,rescheduling LSR's is not ideal.

aero2k · 18-07-2009 4:09pm

Hi all,

Did 31:18 for the 5 in the Park today. (chip time was 31:31 but I'm using Garmin time as I had to stop to tie my lace after 1/2 a mile!). I felt like I could run 10 miles no problem after the finish, but realistically I don't think I could have got near McMillan's target of 30:36 on the day - maybe I lost 10 secs that I shouldn't have. I have been doing lots of aerobic training and some tempo runs.
My question is should I now revise my DCM target to 3:04 as per McMillan, wait and see how the 10 mile goes, or do some more LT work?
Thanks,
aero2k

Sosa · 18-07-2009 4:41pm

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

Did 31:18 for the 5 in the Park today. (chip time was 31:31 but I'm using Garmin time as I had to stop to tie my lace after 1/2 a mile!). I felt like I could run 10 miles no problem after the finish, but realistically I don't think I could have got near McMillan's target of 30:36 on the day - maybe I lost 10 secs that I shouldn't have. I have been doing lots of aerobic training and some tempo runs.
My question is should I now revise my DCM target to 3:04 as per McMillan, wait and see how the 10 mile goes, or do some more LT work?
Thanks,
aero2k

Everyone is different aero2k...but i personally think you should be nearer 29 mins for 5m to have a right good go at sub 3.
Recently i ran 29:33 and 29:39 and i reckon i am 50/50 at best to do it.

From reading on boards the last 18 months about people even going sub 29 for 5 not doing it....it really shows me how tough a task it is.

mithril · 18-07-2009 8:10pm

Peckham wrote: »

2 miles out I had just under 15 minutes to bring me home in 2:59, which on a normal day was plenty of time .

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

In my own experience it appears to relate more towards accumulated muscle damage than running out of energy as glycogen stocks are used up.

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.

Do ultra-runners suffer the same way when running a marathon distance?
Would increasing my longest training run to a full marathon length help?

theFinishLine · 18-07-2009 8:54pm

mithril wrote: »

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.
?

I think (only from my own experience) that it is a mixture of your suggestions in your message above. I have ran sub 2:40 a couple of times. But these times only happened AFTER I actually reduced the number of 22 miles and over long runs I did coming up to the marathon and increased the amount of speed work I did. The speed work took the form of say two decent tempo runs per week (30 minutes without stopping @ marathon pace) and then if the calendar worked out a 5KM or 10km Race. Excluding the last 10 days before the marathon - I try to race once per week for the final six weeks of training. Again only from my experience but as the races pass by you feel yourself getting less fatigued at the end of them. This in turn has physical and psychological advantages for me in the marathon.

I also try to build in an insurance minute or 90 seconds for the last 10KM. I have ran over 30 marathons and never seen myself in one where I haven't slowed by some amount in the final few miles. I would not agree with a strategy that tries to build in a very big insurance as this can go wrong big time.

I have mentioned it on other threads that again from personal experience I have found splitting the marathon into 10, 10 and 6 miles a massive help.

I am not sure if my reply is coherent, useful, sensible (or combination of any of these) but I can vouch that the above approach has worked for me very well.

--amadeus-- · 19-07-2009 10:00pm

mithril wrote: »

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

In my own experience it appears to relate more towards accumulated muscle damage than running out of energy as glycogen stocks are used up.

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.

Do ultra-runners suffer the same way when running a marathon distance?
Would increasing my longest training run to a full marathon length help?

That's the holy grail and whoever finds the answer will make a lot of money!

I'm exactly the same. In teh last cycle I was well able to batter through mid-length PMP runs (12 - 14 milers for example) so speed was clearly not an issue. So I figured I am lacking endurance and so more (and slower) LSRs must be the answer. I'm still 12 weeks out from Rotterdam but I've got my first 20 under my belt and I'm planning on doing more and longer LSRs than in other cycles.

But then I saw that Peckham is planning pretty much exactly the opposite to get exactly the same result!

At the end of the day we all have the speed - every one of us can knock out 6:45 miles. And we all have the endurance - running 26.2 miles when fully trained isn't a challenge.

What is tough is the speed endurance. And that seems to be the bit that no one can work out how to guarantee!

rigal · 20-07-2009 9:18am

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

Did 31:18 for the 5 in the Park today. ......I don't think I could have got near McMillan's target of 30:36 on the day -

Hi aero2k, congrats on another fast time. IMO the adidas 5 miler is not a good course for setting all-out pbs. If you ran a flat 5 I think you would have definitely made it in under 30.36.

aero2k · 20-07-2009 9:45am

rigal wrote: »

Hi aero2k, congrats on another fast time. IMO the adidas 5 miler is not a good course for setting all-out pbs. If you ran a flat 5 I think you would have definitely made it in under 30.36.

Thanks Rigal,
I thought it was just me but looking at all the splits posted everyone seems a lot slower over that 4th mile - despite it not being very steep it is uphill all the way. I take a lot of consolation from your kind words, the fact that I was able to speed up a bit at the end, and the fact that I felt very good afterwards and on my 8-mile recovery run yesterday. Hopefully I can get closer to the target for the 10 mile, I think the speed for the shorter distances is a bit beyond my capacity / training program.
I see you have the lakes 10k as a target - looks like a great race. I'd love to do it but I think I'll stick to what I've got planned for this year.

aero2k · 20-07-2009 9:58am

rigal wrote: »

Hi aero2k, congrats on another fast time. IMO the adidas 5 miler is not a good course for setting all-out pbs. If you ran a flat 5 I think you would have definitely made it in under 30.36.

Thanks Rigal,
I thought it was just me but looking at all the splits posted everyone seems a lot slower over that 4th mile - despite it not being very steep it is uphill all the way. I take a lot of consolation from your kind words, the fact that I was able to speed up a bit at the end, and the fact that I felt very good afterwards and on my 8-mile recovery run yesterday. Hopefully I can get closer to the target for the 10 mile, I think the speed for the shorter distances is a bit beyond my capacity / training program.
I see you have the lakes 10k as a target - looks like a great race. I'd love to do it but I think I'll stick to what I've got planned for this year.

Peckham · 20-07-2009 1:27pm

Had a big think about my sub-3 attempt over the weekend, and have pretty much decided to postpone it until London next April. Berlin is coming round far too quickly for me, and in hindsight I probably should never have considered it. Training this year has been far too broken and I don't feel anywhere near where I need to be to put in a decent time (this far out from Dublin last year I put in an 84 min half in Longford - if I ran a half now I very much doubt I'd go sub-90 without hurting myself!). What I had planned over the next few weeks is probably far too much and risks injury/burn-out - especially seeing as I now haven't run in 10 days.

Don't want to go to Berlin and have a disappointing experience.

Am very much thinking now that I should concentrate on shorter stuff for the rest of this year and then start into January feeling full of confidence for an attempt in April. Will be starting London from the Good For Age section, so based on RoadRunner's experience in that section this year, a good time is achievable from there.

Have my flights and hotel booked for Berlin, so could maybe find someway of helping a fellow boardsie out here if they're stuck for one or both of these.

shels4ever · 20-07-2009 1:30pm

Peckham wrote: »

Had a big think about my sub-3 attempt over the weekend, and have pretty much decided to postpone it until London next April. Berlin is coming round far too quickly for me, and in hindsight I probably should never have considered it. Training this year has been far too broken and I don't feel anywhere near where I need to be to put in a decent time (this far out from Dublin last year I put in an 84 min half in Longford - if I ran a half now I very much doubt I'd go sub-90 without hurting myself!). What I had planned over the next few weeks is probably far too much and risks injury/burn-out - especially seeing as I now haven't run in 10 days.

Don't want to go to Berlin and have a disappointing experience.

Am very much thinking now that I should concentrate on shorter stuff for the rest of this year and then start into January feeling full of confidence for an attempt in April. Will be starting London from the Good For Age section, so based on RoadRunner's experience in that section this year, a good time is achievable from there.

Have my flights and hotel booked for Berlin, so could maybe find someway of helping a fellow boardsie out here if they're stuck for one or both of these.

The Novice XC might be a nice target for you, you'd do fairly well in that

.

Sosa · 20-07-2009 1:46pm

Peckham wrote: »

Had a big think about my sub-3 attempt over the weekend, and have pretty much decided to postpone it until London next April. Berlin is coming round far too quickly for me, and in hindsight I probably should never have considered it. Training this year has been far too broken and I don't feel anywhere near where I need to be to put in a decent time (this far out from Dublin last year I put in an 84 min half in Longford - if I ran a half now I very much doubt I'd go sub-90 without hurting myself!). What I had planned over the next few weeks is probably far too much and risks injury/burn-out - especially seeing as I now haven't run in 10 days.

Don't want to go to Berlin and have a disappointing experience.

Am very much thinking now that I should concentrate on shorter stuff for the rest of this year and then start into January feeling full of confidence for an attempt in April. Will be starting London from the Good For Age section, so based on RoadRunner's experience in that section this year, a good time is achievable from there.

Have my flights and hotel booked for Berlin, so could maybe find someway of helping a fellow boardsie out here if they're stuck for one or both of these.

Very sensible....main thing about training for me is the enjoyment....you cant get into a situation where your dreading the thoughts of it because you cant do what you have planned for youself....London will be around before you know it

cfitz · 20-07-2009 2:04pm

theFinishLine wrote: »

I think (only from my own experience) that it is a mixture of your suggestions in your message above. I have ran sub 2:40 a couple of times. But these times only happened AFTER I actually reduced the number of 22 miles and over long runs I did coming up to the marathon and increased the amount of speed work I did. The speed work took the form of say two decent tempo runs per week (30 minutes without stopping @ marathon pace) and then if the calendar worked out a 5KM or 10km Race. Excluding the last 10 days before the marathon - I try to race once per week for the final six weeks of training. Again only from my experience but as the races pass by you feel yourself getting less fatigued at the end of them. This in turn has physical and psychological advantages for me in the marathon.

I also try to build in an insurance minute or 90 seconds for the last 10KM. I have ran over 30 marathons and never seen myself in one where I haven't slowed by some amount in the final few miles. I would not agree with a strategy that tries to build in a very big insurance as this can go wrong big time.

I have mentioned it on other threads that again from personal experience I have found splitting the marathon into 10, 10 and 6 miles a massive help.

I am not sure if my reply is coherent, useful, sensible (or combination of any of these) but I can vouch that the above approach has worked for me very well.

That's interesting. Any chance you could post up a typical week's training (maybe from about 8 weeks out from the marathon)?

MayoRoadRunner · 20-07-2009 2:21pm

Hey all. After carefull consideration I'm opting out of DCM 09. Ran 29.40 in addidas 5 miler. Was really happy to break the 30 min mark. However current mileage is c. 15-20 miles a week and i'm risking injury jumping into a 40 week plan at this stage. Ran DCM 08 in 3.10. Think i could make small improvement on that this year but going to hold out and maybe try London in April. Still going to increase milage gradually to 50 miles/week and be in good shape leading into plan in Jan 2010.
Is there any other fast spring marathon people would recommend?
Tks

--amadeus-- · 20-07-2009 2:51pm

IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Very fast course, good crowd support, excellent aid stations, incredibly well organised chip collection, perfectly organised start, good value, brilliant post race "stuff" (free videos, photos and race analysis), great technical finishers T. I could go on - it really is fantastic. It's in April, usually around teh same time as Paris.

MayoRoadRunner · 20-07-2009 6:51pm

-amadeus-- IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Very fast course, good crowd support, excellent aid stations, incredibly well organised chip collection, perfectly organised start, good value, brilliant post race "stuff" (free videos, photos and race analysis), great technical finishers T. I could go on - it really is fantastic. It's in April, usually around teh same time as Paris.

Thanks Amadeus. You have me sold. Rotterdam 2010 it is!

TheRoadRunner · 20-07-2009 7:03pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Sounds good and have heard good stories about Rotterdam. Have you done other international marathons and how do they compare ?

--amadeus-- · 20-07-2009 7:39pm

I've done a couple of other international marathons.

Paris I wasn't sold on - great course from a sight seeing POV but narrow and (for teh time band I was in at the time) very, very congested. Def one to do for the experience though, the fueling stands included a few that had wine, cheese, cider... The French really know how to eat! Not a PB course though.

Berlin I also ran and it was excellent - great course, great support. Chip collection was a disaster and it was pretty pricey - the t shirt was a plain cotton one that you had to pay extra for on top of a steep entry fee. Also teh carb drink is called Extran and is mixed from powder at the stands. One guy I know either got the dregs or a bad mix and it wrecked his race. Good after race party though

Other than that it's all been Irish races for me - Longford, Cork, Dublin. Dublin will always be good because it's where I ran my first but Rotterdam is the only overseas race I've run twice.

Running Bing · 20-07-2009 7:43pm

mithril wrote: »

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

In my own experience it appears to relate more towards accumulated muscle damage than running out of energy as glycogen stocks are used up.

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.

Do ultra-runners suffer the same way when running a marathon distance?
Would increasing my longest training run to a full marathon length help?

4:15 marathoner here so take with a large grain of salt but do you ever do fast finish long runs? Basically the last 1-3 miles are run at closer to tempo pace. Just brainstorming here but I imagine that could be helpful for finishing stronger.

Also I came across these tables which seem a bit more realistic than the McMillan ones.

Peckham · 20-07-2009 7:45pm

On the subject of overseas marathons....got my entry form for London at the weekend. Was pleasantly surprised to see that the entry fee is £32 (only £28 if a member of a UK athletics club). Compared to likes of Berlin and New York, that's very cheap. Guess it's unfair to compare it to Dublin as it undoubtedly gets better funding from sponsors etc.

Slogger Jogger · 20-07-2009 7:48pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Very fast course, good crowd support, excellent aid stations, incredibly well organised chip collection, perfectly organised start, good value, brilliant post race "stuff" (free videos, photos and race analysis), great technical finishers T. I could go on - it really is fantastic. It's in April, usually around teh same time as Paris.

Really? I found it a very slow course

You're right of course, it was just me that was slow

mithril · 22-07-2009 1:37pm

Running Bing wrote: »

4:15 marathoner here so take with a large grain of salt but do you ever do fast finish long runs? Basically the last 1-3 miles are run at closer to tempo pace. Just brainstorming here but I imagine that could be helpful for finishing stronger.

Also I came across these tables which seem a bit more realistic than the McMillan ones.

Yes, that’s a common approach as well. A lot of marathon runners, divide their long run into 3; first third very easy, second third normal pace and final third full target marathon pace. Unfortunately, I am trying not to aggravate an ankle injury at the moment, so the best I can achieve is to get the target long distance run completed at a fairly easy pace.

This table appears to be a decathlon scoring table and may not be directly applicable. Decathletes run 100, 400m, 1500m so should perform relatively better at the shorter distances and not as well in the marathon.

I think the same comment though is applicable to McMillan. McMillan makes it clear that a good 10KM runner will not achieve the equivalent marathon time unless they do specific marathon training, LSR etc. However, the converse should also be true. Most marathon runners would not do as much interval training as a middle distance runner (focussing on lactate threshold rather than vo2 max which is more important for the short, fast distances). Therefore, I believe that for most dedicated marathon runners, their corresponding 10KM time should actually predict a slower time than they actually achieve in the marathon. However, the comments above so not appear to support this. My first marathon was last year, and I found it reasonably accurate for that , but I don't have enough data points to draw any valid conclusions.

TFBubendorfer · 22-07-2009 2:04pm

Running Bing wrote: »

Also I came across these tables which seem a bit more realistic than the McMillan ones.

Sorry, have to disagree with you on that. I just set a new PB for a 10k on Sunday. If I look up the equivalent marathon time I come up with 3:19:47. That's no less than 14 minutes slower than my actual marathon PB. I'm used to tables giving me an unrealistically fast marathon time, not an even more unrealistically slow one.

mrak · 22-07-2009 2:38pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Sorry, have to disagree with you on that. I just set a new PB for a 10k on Sunday. If I look up the equivalent marathon time I come up with 3:19:47. That's no less than 14 minutes slower than my actual marathon PB. I'm used to tables giving me an unrealistically fast marathon time, not an even more unrealistically slow one.

+1 those tables are hillarious - about 10 mins slower for me on the 10k versus marathon time whereas mcmillan has me to 3 seconds. Might be a personal thing but I'd go with McMillan. On the plus side it was nice to see I should be doing a 1.79 high jump and a 47 hammer throw based on my 10k time (!!).

Racing Flat · 22-07-2009 2:57pm

For me those table running bing posted are uncannily accurate for when I ran 2.59...

Running Bing · 22-07-2009 3:03pm

Sorry, have to disagree with you on that. I just set a new PB for a 10k on Sunday. If I look up the equivalent marathon time I come up with 3:19:47. That's no less than 14 minutes slower than my actual marathon PB. I'm used to tables giving me an unrealistically fast marathon time, not an even more unrealistically slow one.

mrak wrote: »

+1 those tables are hillarious - about 10 mins slower for me on the 10k versus marathon time whereas mcmillan has me to 3 seconds. Might be a personal thing but I'd go with McMillan. On the plus side it was nice to see I should be doing a 1.79 high jump and a 47 hammer throw based on my 10k time (!!).

Out of interest were you training specifically for the 10k's when you ran them or where they part of marathon training?

I suppose its just a personal thing. My 800 and mile times put me comfortably under 3 hours for the marathon on McMillan while those tables put me at around 3:15-20 which seems much more realistic for me.

Gringo78 · 22-07-2009 4:09pm

Running Bing wrote: »

My 800 and mile times put me comfortably under 3 hours for the marathon on McMillan while those tables put me at around 3:15-20 which seems much more realistic for me.

Is that not a self fulfilling prophecy? i.e if McMillan suggests you are capable of Sub 3 and you then train for Sub 3 hitting the required tempo & interval intensities for a Sub 3 time you will have a chance of getting close or achieving it. However, if you believe you are only capable of 3:15-20 well thats what you'll base training intensitys on and thats as good as you'll race on the day.

I think the general consensus is McMillan is probably +-5min accurate on marathon times. If you find then your times don't match up then its usually easy to identify why i.e fast mile time but not achieving anywhere near predicted marathon time....endurance aspect lacking in your training.

mrak · 22-07-2009 4:17pm

Running Bing wrote: »

Out of interest were you training specifically for the 10k's when you ran them or where they part of marathon training?

I suppose its just a personal thing. My 800 and mile times put me comfortably under 3 hours for the marathon on McMillan while those tables put me at around 3:15-20 which seems much more realistic for me.

Hi - I was mainly training for the marathon at the time and racing for fun along the way. I would plug in a 10k or better a half to predict your marathon time rather than an 800 or mile. The 800 worked out for me as well but I'd say that was just luck.

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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