The Sub 3 Support Thread

aero2k

...thanks again to all for the Garmin tips.

I had planned to do 18 miles with 4 @ MP (6:53), returning home for a drinks refill at the halfway point (I live very close to the Park). Now my usual loop is 6.5 miles, 7 incl the little bit to and from home. Someone showed me a 1 mile loop round the Ordinance survey, so I threw in a couple of them. 1st mile 9 min, then 8, then 9, then 8, then consistent 8s up to the pitstop which brought me to 9.01 miles - good guess. I struggled to get going after the brief stop, but managed 8:21, 7:39, and then 7:02, 6:48, 6:48; and 6:49 for the target miles. Bearing in mind that these were over a mixture of fairly rugged trails and undulating roads I was pretty happy with the results. Actually I was enjoying it so much I missed one of the lap alerts from the Garmin, and I had to stop and check that I had completed 4 miles and not 3! That "Average Lap Pace" field is the business. Struggled home with 8, 8 and 9 min miles. I felt a lot less knackered than expected, though the right knee was a bit stiff this morning. It did loosen up after a gentle run today, so hopefully it's ok.
Maybe this sub 3 thing is on after all.....

asimonov

I had a discussion with Sosa about this a few nights back about the benefits (or not) of tune-up races. I had hoped to race 4 of them between now and 5 weeks out (maybe even a 5th if i can find a short one the week after) of between 5 mile and half marathon.

I had planned to do:
5mile tonight
10K 16th/ August
10k or 10miles early September
13.1miles 20th September


I was racing them to help get "race-fit" and to get a gauge on what kind of shape i am in for the marathon. But now i'm not so sure....

Is anyone else doing these kind of "all out" races between now and berlin / amsterdam / dublin? Any thoughts on the best way to integrate races and training in the final 8 or 9 weeks to hit peak condition for the marathon.

Racing Flat

asimonov wrote: »

I had a discussion with Sosa about this a few nights back about the benefits (or not) of tune-up races. I had hoped to race 4 of them between now and 5 weeks out (maybe even a 5th if i can find a short one the week after) of between 5 mile and half marathon.

I had planned to do:
5mile tonight
10K 16th/ August
10k or 10miles early September
13.1miles 20th September


I was racing them to help get "race-fit" and to get a gauge on what kind of shape i am in for the marathon. But now i'm not so sure....

Is anyone else doing these kind of "all out" races between now and berlin / amsterdam / dublin? Any thoughts on the best way to integrate races and training in the final 8 or 9 weeks to hit peak condition for the marathon.

Maybe it's a personal thing but I think one a month is enough in the run up to the marathon, particularly if you have longer ones like 10 miles and half marathon in there.

Rusty Cogs 08

Although I like tune up races just as a break from the marginal tedium of a strict marathon schedule, I don't like the former to impinge on the latter. Therefore, for Berlin, I'm only running the Lifestyle 5 & 10 mile. My marathon training has runs in there at PMP (predicted marathon pace) so say tomorrow morning I'm going to run 17 miles with 14 at PMP. While next Saturday I'll be going for a 64'16" in the 10 miler. If I achieve both without the wheels coming off then I know I'm in good shape. If I don't then with 6/5 weeks to go there's not much to do bar stick to the training and maybe revise my goal time.

I'm making two points here really, first, race if you like, but not at the expense of your training (and I think multiple races can knock your training) where as second, racing will help with experience around race day prep/tactics/food/drinks/gels/shoes/blisters/warm ups/warm downs.

So to conclude, race as needed to gain ultimate race day experience but for race day fitness, train.

Stupid_Private

asimonov wrote: »

I had a discussion with Sosa about this a few nights back about the benefits (or not) of tune-up races. I had hoped to race 4 of them between now and 5 weeks out (maybe even a 5th if i can find a short one the week after) of between 5 mile and half marathon.

I had planned to do:
5mile tonight
10K 16th/ August
10k or 10miles early September
13.1miles 20th September


I was racing them to help get "race-fit" and to get a gauge on what kind of shape i am in for the marathon. But now i'm not so sure....

Is anyone else doing these kind of "all out" races between now and berlin / amsterdam / dublin? Any thoughts on the best way to integrate races and training in the final 8 or 9 weeks to hit peak condition for the marathon.

That'd be similar to the way I'd go about it

11/12 weeks out - anything from 5k to 10k.
8/9 weeks out - 10 miles
5/6 weeks out - half marathon
3 weeks out I'd look for a sharpening race - around 5 miles, max of 10k

All my races would be on a Saturday or Sunday and I'd wind my training down on the week leading up to a race. I don't do a long run on the day after a race - I can barely manage to jog 4 or 5 miles the day after a 10k, no chance of a long run. The next tough session won't be until the following Thursday or Friday.

That works for me - although I still feel I was missing something the last time out. It could've been that after going flat out in the 10 mile race the half marathon came too soon afterwards. 4 weeks between them rather than 3 may have been better. In an ideal world the races would fall when you want them to, but you've got to make the best use of the calendar that's available to you.

wizwill

I am running dublin this year. My plan is Dublin 10 mile, possibly longford half at PMP, lakeshore 10k / Pearl Izumi (around 12th Sept) and dublin half ( i would prefer it a week or two earlier).

I think it comes down to how you recover both physically and mentally. If I run a HM at race pace my training for the next week will suffer in terms of quality, i will be pretty much wiped and open to injury. The most important thing for me is to getting the long runs in (and dont let racing get in the way of these), you can look at mcmillan until the cows come home, if you aint got long runs under your belt none of your short race times will predict your marathon time.

I think the dublin half is too close to the DCM. Its an obvious thing to say but a HM takes a lot more out of me than a 10 miler, a HM is around 30% longer than a 10 miler yet it probably takes 60% more out of me. I dont understand why its four weeks from the marathon and not five like last year.

The P&Douglas schedules veer towards more 10k to 15k races coming up to your goal marathon rather than Half Marathons. I think in an ideal world i would do the dublin 10 miler, maybe dingle half on 12th Sept, and say a 10k or two between 12th Sept and 26th Oct. Other commitments mean i can do it this way.

I was reading recently about some of the techniques employed in the early days of marathoning, and one US athlete who went out for a twenty miler the day before the olympics, his coach managed to catch him before he got too far. Reminds me of my first marathon when my first long run was two weeks before it and then i trained for two weeks solid, I got to 19 miles in a daze and walk/ran the remainder.

Sosa

asimonov wrote: »

I had a discussion with Sosa about this a few nights back about the benefits (or not) of tune-up races. I had hoped to race 4 of them between now and 5 weeks out (maybe even a 5th if i can find a short one the week after) of between 5 mile and half marathon.

I had planned to do:
5mile tonight
10K 16th/ August
10k or 10miles early September
13.1miles 20th September


I was racing them to help get "race-fit" and to get a gauge on what kind of shape i am in for the marathon. But now i'm not so sure....

Is anyone else doing these kind of "all out" races between now and berlin / amsterdam / dublin? Any thoughts on the best way to integrate races and training in the final 8 or 9 weeks to hit peak condition for the marathon.

My thinking on it is thats its hard enough to do all your tough sessions on your program without throwing races into the mix.
I am doing the P & D 18wk up to 55m program and there are very few races prescribed in it,a couple near the end is all.
Alot of tempos,PMP runs and Vo2's that keep me well occupied.

So if they are not putting them in ( and they are the experts ) why should we do them ?

I know my range in a 5k,4m,5m.,10k race...id say i could guess within 30 seconds of my finish time in any of those.
I would like to know what i am capable at 10m though,and i would be very confident of running sub 6:30p for a half,but if i was to race those distances,i would be wrecked the following week.

Its a individual decision really.

Stupid_Private

Sosa wrote: »

So if they are not putting them in ( and they are the experts ) why should we do them ?

I don't know the full race build up of many athletes but saying they don't put the races in during the build up to a marathon is incorrect. Paula Radcliffe won the Great North Run 5 weeks before winning the New York Marathon in 2007. Ryan Hall and his coach partly blame the lack of races in the build up to Boston this year for him not performing as well as they had expected. He was down to race in the half that Fagan set the Irish record in but pulled out for some reason.

wizwill

Sosa wrote: »

So if they are not putting them in ( and they are the experts ) why should we do them ?

I think racing toughens you up mentally and provides momentum also when you are aiming for sub 3 chances are you are in the best shape of your life and PB's are a real possibilty at a number of distances, if all your eggs are in one basket you might have nothing to show for 6 months of effort if you dont make the start line.

Gringo78

wizwill wrote: »

if all your eggs are in one basket you might have nothing to show for 6 months of effort if you dont make the start line.

I'm gonna side with Sosa on this one. Professional athletes run high mileage 100 mile weeks and they can afford to throw in races ( and need to also to earn a few bob) as part of a schedule but us amateurs don't have the time I think. I don't think a 10 mile race sharpens you up mentally for a marathon whereas a 20 mile long slow run run does. A correctly paced 8 mile tempo run will put the speed in your legs that you need in comparison to your PMP. A 10 mile or HM race running all out will affect you for at least 8-10 days afterwards. If you think it doesn't, and can do an interval session 3 days later, then you're not training hard enough on hard session days.

I think if you do one marathon a year then theres a time for setting PB's in 5k to 10mile races before and after the training block and ideally I think you should hit the 10 mile/HM race pace required for a Sub 3 effort (i.e as suggested by McMillan) prior to commencing your marathon training block. That way you will hit the training intensities required right from the start.

asimonov

sosa, you're dead right - its a personal decision, and there is probably as much variance in approach at elite level as there is at our happy hacker level.

In the P&D book they talk about doing tune-up races and how to handle them and then they don't include them in their training plans, i don't understand this.

i think i'm going to stick with my basic plan, i'll probably do either the 10 mile or the half in september and then look at going as per SP with a 5k in the final month - if i can find one that suits.

I'll train through the races and then drop my tuesday hard session.

asimonov

Gringo78 wrote: »

ideally I think you should hit the 10 mile/HM race pace required for a Sub 3 effort (i.e as suggested by McMillan) prior to commencing your marathon training block. That way you will hit the training intensities required right from the start.

Hey Gringo, i agree - and that's exactly where i'm at. For what its worth, I'd hit sub 3 equivalents from mcmillan before starting the last 9 weeks of base training. The next 9 weeks are a step up in intensity again, and i think that doing say 3 or 4 races in that time can help achieve that.

wizwill

Gringo78 wrote: »

I don't think a 10 mile race sharpens you up mentally for a marathon whereas a 20 mile long slow run run does .

.

We must be thinking about a different type of mental sharpening here, I mean the adrenaline pumping competitive edge that can only be found in racing. I reckon its a completely personal thing.

Gringo78 wrote: »

A correctly paced 8 mile tempo run will put the speed in your legs that you need in comparison to your PMP. A 10 mile or HM race running all out will affect you for at least 8-10 days afterwards. If you think it doesn't, and can do an interval session 3 days later, then you're not training hard enough on hard session days. .

fair point and i did refer in my previous post to be wiped for a week after a HM.

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think if you do one marathon a year then theres a time for setting PB's in 5k to 10mile races before and after the training block and ideally I think you should hit the 10 mile/HM race pace required for a Sub 3 effort (i.e as suggested by McMillan) prior to commencing your marathon training block. That way you will hit the training intensities required right from the start.

another fair point, a mate was primed for sub 3 last year with no racing, running hilly 20 milers in 2.15, he didnt make the start line and he regretted not racing, thats where my point is coming from. Dont feel too sorry for him though, I think he will be low 2.50's this year.

The common theme is that it all comes back to personal preference and getting to know what works for you, and hey if it doesnt this year there is always next year

Speaking of personal preference there is very little in the way of hill training in P&D, I have included a tough hill session and feel its my best session of the week now.


Asiminov, i dont have the P&D book with me and correct me if i am wrong (wouldnt be the first time) but the races are in the book. The races are not in the plans on the net but i think they are in the book.

Gringo78

asimonov wrote: »

Hey Gringo, i agree - and that's exactly where i'm at. For what its worth, I'd hit sub 3 equivalents from mcmillan before starting the last 9 weeks of base training. The next 9 weeks are a step up in intensity again, and i think that doing say 3 or 4 races in that time can help achieve that.

I think you should trust your training then, I had aspirations of Sub 3 back in March and stupidly thought I could train my way up to Sub 3 standard during the marathon training. Twas a good learning exercise. My aim now is to have a 83min HM and a 62min 10mile done before starting the next marathon training block.

Endurance is lost very very fast...you need endurance for the marathon. If you have the speed in your legs at the start of your training, stick to the plan and you can't have gone backwards if you're doing tempo's and intervals. A hard session is more valuable than a race and personally, to give yourself the best shot, take all the hard sessions you can.

1 10 mile race or HM in the middle of the marathon program is no harm as a sanity check to keep the mind from going crazy during the taper.

tunguska

Going for a sub 3 this year myself. Did 3:02 last year, was my first marathon and I learned lots. Im gonna try for between 2:35 and 2:39. I know its gonna take a lot but training has been going well and Im on schedule in terms of race performances.
Will need to run a 56min 10 mile race next saturday according to macmilliam in order to be in the 2:30 ballpark. And will need to run a 1:15 or so for the half marathon in september.

Stupid_Private

Gringo78 wrote: »

I don't think a 10 mile race sharpens you up mentally for a marathon whereas a 20 mile long slow run run does.

My experience of this is totally different. I'm not going into a "my way is right, other ways are wrong" thing here - this is just my experience.

My 10 mile run in Ballycotton is by far and away the toughest race I've ever done mentally and physically. I've only once done a twenty mile run in preparation for a marathon and that was also this year. I can't say that took much out of me. If I was to have replaced that 10 mile race with a 20 mile long run there is no way I'd have been as prepared for the marathon as I was.

I used to run about 3 races a year and one marathon. When I got in touch with my coach he changed my training pattern so that it incorporated a lot of races - one every 3 or 4 weeks year round - cross country, road, track, whatever. Within 9 months my marathon time was 20 minutes faster than the year before. Because of that I'll probably always jump on the race more and recover between races side of things. Whos to say that my whole marathon training outlook won't change between now and the next stab at it though.

Sosa

wizwill wrote: »

. Asiminov, i dont have the P&D book with me and correct me if i am wrong (wouldnt be the first time) but the races are in the book. The races are not in the plans on the net but i think they are in the book.

I have the book open in front of me know and on my program (18wk 55m )
There are 3 tune up races - 6 weeks to go 8-15k,4 weeks to go 8-15k and with 2 weeks go 8-10k....so nothing for the first 12 weeks training

Rusty Cogs 08

wizwill wrote: »

.


Asiminov, i dont have the P&D book with me and correct me if i am wrong (wouldnt be the first time) but the races are in the book. The races are not in the plans on the net but i think they are in the book.

The 18 wk 55mpw schedule has three "tune-up" races 6,4 & 2 weeks before the marathon at 8 - 15k, 8 - 15k and 8 - 10k respectively. Note, all of these races are scheduled with LSR's the next day (17,17,16) so how much you want to put into them depends on how good you feel about your LSR the following day. Note, all tune up races are < 10 miles. So I think their aim is to get you preped for race experience rather than racing as training (in a body conditioning sense).

Gringo78

Stupid_Private wrote: »

My 10 mile run in Ballycotton is by far and away the toughest race I've ever done mentally and physically. I've only once done a twenty mile run in preparation for a marathon and that was also this year. I can't say that took much out of me. If I was to have replaced that 10 mile race with a 20 mile long run there is no way I'd have been as prepared for the marathon as I was.

I used to run about 3 races a year and one marathon. When I got in touch with my coach he changed my training pattern so that it incorporated a lot of races - one every 3 or 4 weeks year round - cross country, road, track, whatever. Within 9 months my marathon time was 20 minutes faster than the year before.

Point taken and maybe we're not as divergent as you might think. When I refer to a marathon training block I mean 12 weeks core marathon training before the marathon not 6 months. I wouldn't have more than 1 10 mile or HM race during that period. A 5km race or 5 mile race would be no problem. However, you must race competetively the rest of the year (apart from taking time out to eat mince pies at Christmas), every 3/4 weeks as you say. I also think you should never be more than 12 weeks from being marathon capable i.e if you're a sub 3 marathoner, you should be able to run Sub 3 times in races at all times more or less year round and be ready to start a 12 week marathon program at full Sub 3 intensity i.e you should be straight into tempo runs of 6-8 miles at 6:15 pace.

It is a personal thing though and everyone is different and one piece of advice I read somewhere once is that you should think whats the workout or session you fear/hate the most....thats your weakness, don't miss that session any week. if you're going to race during the marathon training drop the hard session that you enjoy, make sure at all costs to do the session you hate/fear the most.

asimonov

Sosa wrote: »

I have the book open in front of me know and on my program (18wk 55m )
There are 3 tune up races - 6 weeks to go 8-15k,4 weeks to go 8-15k and with 2 weeks go 8-10k....so nothing for the first 12 weeks training

my bad, can't argue with that..must learn to check the facts before posting...:)

wizwill

Gringo78 wrote: »

drop the hard session that you enjoy, make sure at all costs to do the session you hate/fear the most.

Thats great advice.

I am having a hard time choosing which one i hate most though!

aero2k

Hi all,

I was a bit disappointed with my time from the Frank Duffy this morning - I was targeting 64:16 for McMillan's 2:59:59 marrathon time. I managed 64:51, a big improvement over last year's 66:28, but still a bit off the pace. However now I've had a bit of time to analyse (rationalise!), I feel a bit better. First of all in last month's 5 miler I ran 31:18 - 44 secs behind target. Today I was 45 secs behind the target over twice the distance, so getting better. Plugging that 31:18 into McMillan gives me 65:44, so I'm ahead there too. I haven't done much work below 6:30 per mile, and I didn't change my training at all in the lead-up to this race. - did 19 miles on undulating roads last Sat, and did a very hard interval session last Tues. I couldn't run any faster at the end, but I felt I could have managed several more miles, if there weren't any more hills!:)
Based on today, McMillan puts me at 3:01:38 for the marathon, so I guess I won't have too much to lose by aiming to hit halfway in 1:29 or so.
Fingers crossed...

TFBubendorfer

aero2k wrote: »

Based on today, McMillan puts me at 3:01:38 for the marathon, so I guess I won't have too much to lose by aiming to hit halfway in 1:29 or so.
Fingers crossed...

I want to point out that just because McMillan says you can run 3:01, it's not necessarily the case in reality.

mithril

A lot of people fail to read the qualifiers that come with the McMillan calculator for times to be comparable:

The main ones are:

1. Like for like difficulty of the course. A time done on a flat course is not directlly pplicable to a hilly course and vice-versa.

2. Conditions on the day. Wind, heat and humidity can have a big impact.

3. Level and type of training. A runner who predominently trains for middle distance (fast intervals) should be faster for the lower distances and slower for the marathon.

4. Nature of the race.
A goal race where the runner is fully tapered and is psychologically prepared for maximum efffort will have a faster time than for a tuning race whre the runner is not prepared to push through the pain barrier and is not fully rested.

Bobby04

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

I was a bit disappointed with my time from the Frank Duffy this morning - I was targeting 64:16 for McMillan's 2:59:59 marrathon time. I managed 64:51, a big improvement over last year's 66:28, but still a bit off the pace. However now I've had a bit of time to analyse (rationalise!), I feel a bit better. First of all in last month's 5 miler I ran 31:18 - 44 secs behind target. Today I was 45 secs behind the target over twice the distance, so getting better. Plugging that 31:18 into McMillan gives me 65:44, so I'm ahead there too. I haven't done much work below 6:30 per mile, and I didn't change my training at all in the lead-up to this race. - did 19 miles on undulating roads last Sat, and did a very hard interval session last Tues. I couldn't run any faster at the end, but I felt I could have managed several more miles, if there weren't any more hills!:)
Based on today, McMillan puts me at 3:01:38 for the marathon, so I guess I won't have too much to lose by aiming to hit halfway in 1:29 or so.
Fingers crossed...

I can only dream of sub 3 marathon at my stage .... but my tuppence worth;

From reading accounts on the 10 miler thread, it was a tough run today, so allow something for that.
Secondly you said yourself you had a good training week before today, unlike the taper (3 week taper presumably) you'll have before the full. That'll make a huge difference. Keep the faith - I'd say you're on target, assuming you keep up the good work.

mithril

If its any consolation, I am aiming for sub 3 as well , but came in at 65:20 - almost a minute off target. I have run much closer to 3 hour pace in earlier races.

The McMillan calculator gave target pace of 6:25 per mile which works out at exactly 4:00 per KM. I had my Garmin set to show the pace in KM/H and try and keep to this. I thought my splits were bang on target until I reached the 5 mile mark and doubled the elapsed time on my watch, This was when I realized that I was about 30 seconds off the pace. The problem was that I failed to take into account that the line I was following in the course was not always the shortest and I needed to run a little bit faster to compensate.

I managed an even split in the second half of the course which was some consolation since it was tougher.
For the record, the Garmin measured the course as 10.2 miles.
I had really run 10.2 miles in 65:20 I would have been bang on 3 hour pace.

aero2k

mithril wrote: »

For the record, the Garmin measured the course as 10.2 miles.
I had really run 10.2 miles in 65:20 I would have been bang on 3 hour pace.

Yeah, I forgot about that, my Garmin had me at 10.08, with that .08 taking 28 seconds. The trick will be in finding a marathon route of exactly 26 miles 385 yards!
As some of you seem to have guessed, I was looking for some affirmation - thanks! Despite my debacle at last years DCM, I actually felt today was much harder. And there's still 10 weeks...
Thomas, I have to defer to your experience and vast mileage, but it's more helpful for me to believe I can run sub 3. Even if I'm wrong anything better than 3:17 will be a PB:)

mithril

Really surprised how well I felt this morning. Hardly a pain or ache and I had no difficulty completing my planned 10k recovery run. In fact I was struggling to keep the pace down within the desired range.

1. In some ways this is even more disappointing. I had blamed tiredness from a really tough 23 miles, last third at pace, run which I had done the previous Sunday, for the poor run yesterday. I was shattered on Monday and could not even complete easy cross-training. If this was the reason though, I should feel a lot more tired today.

2. I think the performance might be explainable by Noakes Central Governor theory which "Brain Training for Runners" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brain-Training-Runners-Revolutionary-Endurance/dp/0451222326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250453092&sr=8-1 has popularized. "The central governor theory says that when you are fatigued it is not really that your muscles have run out of energy or got damaged but that your 'brain' decides to protect them from damage by letting them do less and less work for the same 'mental' effort - as evidenced by the fact that when the brain knows the finish is near, the brain lets the brakes off and much of the 'fatigue' disappears)."

In this case, I never had run a 10 mile before but have done a lot of half marathons. I was running to half-marathon pace and the over-reliance on the Garmin compunded the error. If I believed that I should have been running to run 5 seconds per KM faster, I would have pushed through the pain barrier and done do.

Oisin11178

mithril wrote: »

If its any consolation, I am aiming for sub 3 as well , but came in at 65:20 - almost a minute off target. I have run much closer to 3 hour pace in earlier races.

The McMillan calculator gave target pace of 6:25 per mile which works out at exactly 4:00 per KM. I had my Garmin set to show the pace in KM/H and try and keep to this. I thought my splits were bang on target until I reached the 5 mile mark and doubled the elapsed time on my watch, This was when I realized that I was about 30 seconds off the pace. The problem was that I failed to take into account that the line I was following in the course was not always the shortest and I needed to run a little bit faster to compensate.

I managed an even split in the second half of the course which was some consolation since it was tougher.
For the record, the Garmin measured the course as 10.2 miles.
I had really run 10.2 miles in 65:20 I would have been bang on 3 hour pace.

I would be interested to know what other garmins had for distance for this race because mine was close to aero2k at 10.07.
10.20 seems very excessive, were you running very wide at every corned. Just curious:)

mithril

Oisin11178 wrote: »

I would be interested to know what other garmins had for distance for this race because mine was close to aero2k at 10.07.
10.20 seems very excessive, were you running very wide at every corned. Just curious:)

I re-checked again, 10.18, but still a significant difference. There was only one occassion, a steep downhill, where I noticed myself running wider than some of the other runners. Other than that I thought I was taking the direct line.
I recorded my last Marathon , the Seville Marathon, on the Garmin at 42.62 instead of 42.195, which is a .420km discrepency or only 1% as opposed to 1.8% in the Phoenix Park.