Irish Debt Clock?

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 3:46pm

annabellee77 wrote: »

Nail on the head.
The stupidity on here by some is actually astounding at times. Normally I'd be right up for a debate on issues but on principle I'd only end up patronising people!

What's astounding about objecting to a civil service that is run by unions??? We pay people to manage the public sector, they cannot do anything with union approval. I work in the private sector, it is a world removed from the intransigent gimp like carry on I am constantly hearing about in the public sector.

not yet · 01-07-2009 3:47pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

What comes in HAS to equal what goes out, it's that simple. That's the way all sustainable organisations work. We have income of probably just under 30 billion Euro this year but we are spending over 60 billion Euro. Then we look and see the likes of RTE's unsufferable celebrities getting paid insane salaries and that organisation can't even balance the books???

What the f*ck are we afraid of in the country, who's sitting at the stop button, I mean is there even a stop button for this country, do we not have any arms or fingers to get at the button???

What in the name of sweet jesus has Gerry Ryans salary got to do with the public sector being blamed on the mess we are in.

We all need to work our way out of this mess,but a little common sense is needed.....not just blindly blaming the public sector. If wage cuts are needed to drag this tiny little rock back from the brink I HAVE NO DOUBT the public sector will do it's part...unlike greedy builders etc etc.

jumpguy · 01-07-2009 3:48pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I really don't understand why debt is such a problem. Where is the money going? who's the guy looking for all this money back and turfing people out on the street? Why do we depend on a fictional system that works perfect one minute then makes all that money disappear the next?

I think we should be seriously considering locking the doors on banks and finding a new system to operate our society's under.

The money is going to things like child benefit, public sector wages, unemployment benefit, carer benefit, capital (once-off) expenses like building new roads, hospitals etc.

The money is coming from income tax and excise duty, customs duty, etc.

Unfortunately, we're spending more money on the former, than we are gaining by the latter.

To stop the government literally running out of money, it needs to borrow from international banks and other countries, kinda just like a loan. It also must pay back that loan (debt servicing). Hence, that is debt. The turfing workers on the street (certainly not ones in the public sector anyway) comes from companies trying to cut their wages expenditure (one of the largest in a company). If the government ever did turf people out on the streets, that would cut their public service wages expenditure.

The "fictional" system is in use for 100's of years now, has been amended, tried and tested all the time, and it works. A recession is the only thing that is needed. The system rewards work (production). If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it ain't broke. The bankers who got us in this mess knew the consequences. Their greed is unparalled by anything I've ever imagined. Imagine doing something to earn you great wealth...at the cost of everyone else in the country, all the decent hardworking people, all the vulnerable people, all the children of that country. In some cases, the world.

Idbatterim · 01-07-2009 3:51pm

could someone tell me why the state pays Public service pensions? they will already be entitled to a state pension and if thats not enough, why dont they start a private pension or put aside saving like everyone else?

gazzer · 01-07-2009 3:51pm

jumpguy wrote: »

Must say I'm on the OP's side but not with the same ideas. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE I know in that works in the private sector has taken a serious pay cut, have been made redundant or are/have been working shortened weeks.

Just to balance this out. None of my friends or family who work in the private sector have been laid off or taken a pay cut (except for tax increases etc) and are not working shorter weeks.

not yet · 01-07-2009 3:54pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

could someone tell me why the state pays Public service pensions? they will already be entitled to a state pension and if thats not enough, why dont they start a private pension or put aside saving like everyone else?

Another ill informed clown eh....

public sector workers pay 13% of their salary into a pension fund.

Strange that, I Thought I got them for nothing...

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 3:55pm

not yet wrote: »

What in the name of sweet jesus has Gerry Ryans salary got to do with the public sector being blamed on the mess we are in.

We all need to work our way out of this mess,but a little common sense is needed.....not just blindly blaming the public sector. If wage cuts are needed to drag this tiny little rock back from the brink I HAVE NO DOUBT the public sector will do it's part...unlike greedy builders etc etc.

Ya see this is where this government is making the biggest mistake. They fail to see that if you collect a load of small inefficiencies, and add them all together, then before too long, you have a large saving. It's the same attitude when it comes to creating jobs, they fail to support small enterrpise, they only see value in chasing big huge multinational employers. It wouldn't occur to them to help a small business in Ireland start up maybe 5 jobs and then grow organically, and maybe in ten years be a company employing 50-100 people.

The salaries paid to the likes of Gerry Ryan, Tubridy, these levels of remuneration are revolting. If you cut those salaries substantially, and did the same for other overpaid fat cats in the public sector such as judges, hospital consultants, etc, you would save an awful lot of money...

This government just want to find one big saving that can be made at the stroke of a pen or a convenient saving, well guess what, there are none left, the only ones left are difficult ones that are spread all over the public sector.

not yet · 01-07-2009 3:56pm

Yeah, yeah...go ahead and ban me blah blah blah. Some things need to get said.

not yet · 01-07-2009 3:58pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

Ya see this is where this government is making the biggest mistake. They fail to see that if you collect a load of small inefficiencies, and add them all together, then before too long, you have a large saving. It's the same attitude when it comes to creating jobs, they fail to support small enterrpise, they only see value in chasing big huge multinational employers. It wouldn't occur to them to help a small business in Ireland start up maybe 5 jobs and then grow organically, and maybe in ten years be a company employing 50-100 people.

The salaries paid to the likes of Gerry Ryan, Tubridy, these levels of remuneration are revolting. If you cut those salaries substantially, and did the same for other overpaid fat cats in the public sector such as judges, hospital consultants, etc, you would save an awful lot of money...

This government just want to find one big saving that can be made at the stroke of a pen or a convenient saving, well guess what, there are none left, the only ones left are difficult ones that are spread all over the public sector.

Good point..and very true.

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 3:59pm

jumpguy wrote: »

The money is going to things like child benefit...

There's another example of pure waste of public money. The idea that a mother driving her kids to school in a 100K Range Rover, should be entitled to a cent in child benefit is just fu*king wrong in my opinion. If you can afford a 100K Range Rover, then please pay for the upbringing of your own kids and don't expect me or the rest of society to subsidise your decision to have kids.

gazzer · 01-07-2009 3:59pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

could someone tell me why the state pays Public service pensions? they will already be entitled to a state pension and if thats not enough, why dont they start a private pension or put aside saving like everyone else?

Eh PS workers pay extra for the pension. All in all they pay approx 17% of their pay into their pension (combination of PRSI, Pension Levy etc).

jumpguy · 01-07-2009 4:00pm

gazzer wrote: »

Just to balance this out. None of my friends or family who work in the private sector have been laid off or taken a pay cut (except for tax increases etc) and are not working shorter weeks.

That's fair enough but I'm perfectly sincere in that statement. Maybe it's a mental block, but I can't think of anyone unaffected in the private sector that I know at the moment.

steof1984 · 01-07-2009 4:00pm

They pay it because they are an employer like most decent employers they pay into a pension for their employees.

Plus Public Servants who joined after 95 (i think, open to correction) wont be entitled to claim their Public Service pension aswell as a State Pension. Even though they pay Class A1 P.R.S.I

billy the squid · 01-07-2009 4:01pm

darkman2 wrote: »

It does not stop there - there is 1 manager to every 5 nurses aswell.

6 department of agriculture employees for every 100 farmers

01-07-2009 4:02pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

overpaid fat cats in the public sector such as judges, hospital consultants, etc, you would save an awful lot of money...

This government just want to find one big saving that can be made at the stroke of a pen or a convenient saving, well guess what, there are none left, the only ones left are difficult ones that are spread all over the public sector.

The problem is then the best people for the jobs wont work in them. We will then have second rate doctors and judges which would not be good for society.

Idbatterim · 01-07-2009 4:05pm

in fairness why begrudge the woman who is driving around in the 100k range rover and claims child benefit she is entitled to, what about all the scum, who milk the system and have never contributed anything! you can be sure that the people driving the nice cars, living in nice houses, providing their kids with a good education are the ones paying the vast majority of taxes!

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 4:05pm

Francesca Deafening Mailman wrote: »

The problem is then the best people for the jobs wont work in them. We will then have second rate doctors and judges which would not be good for society.

Grand, brilliant, let them f*ck off to the UK or mainland Europe where they will get paid a lot lot less! You can't pander to that argument or you will always be overpaying people.

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 4:06pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

in fairness why begrudge the woman who is driving around in the 100k range rover and claims child benefit she is entitled to, what about all the scum, who milk the system and have never contributed anything! you can be sure that the people driving the nice cars, living in nice houses, providing their kids with a good education are the ones paying the vast majority of taxes!

She's entitled to nothing outside of what she can earn! This culture of entitlement is what has us in this mess. Why on earth should someone who is earning substantial income, be receiving child benefit???????????????????????????????????????????????

Idbatterim · 01-07-2009 4:09pm

so the workhorses should be entitled to nothing and the spongers should get eveything carte blanche?

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 4:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

in fairness why begrudge the woman who is driving around in the 100k range rover and claims child benefit she is entitled to, what about all the scum, who milk the system and have never contributed anything! you can be sure that the people driving the nice cars, living in nice houses, providing their kids with a good education are the ones paying the vast majority of taxes!

I don't begrudge her the Range Rover, no problem with that whatsover. But when I and every other taxpayer is expected to take the hit for her decision to have a family, that's the bit I've the problem with...

jumpguy · 01-07-2009 4:10pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

in fairness why begrudge the woman who is driving around in the 100k range rover and claims child benefit she is entitled to, what about all the scum, who milk the system and have never contributed anything! you can be sure that the people driving the nice cars, living in nice houses, providing their kids with a good education are the ones paying the vast majority of taxes!

Well, there are inefficiencies at the top aswell as the bottom. In fairness, why does someone earning a huge amount of money need child benefit? It's only pittance to anyone earning above 100K anyway. Fair enough in good times, but in bad times it's not needed. Government needs to think back to the needs and not the wants.

FYI, I'm not one of those people who say TAX THE RICH and throw loads at the poor. The rich who have worked hard for their fortunes deserve them.

Idbatterim · 01-07-2009 4:11pm

what about the wasters who pop out several kids, do you have a problem with them? why should you pay for their decision to have kids? if you are relying on the states child benefit to raise a kid, i feel sorry for it to be honest!

Quazzie · 01-07-2009 4:11pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

so the workhorses should be entitled to nothing and the spongers should get eveything carte blanche?

I don't think there are many women dropping kids off in school in 100k range rovers that can be described as workhorses.

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 4:13pm

jumpguy wrote: »

Well, there are inefficiencies at the top aswell as the bottom. In fairness, why does someone earning a huge amount of money need child benefit? It's only pittance to anyone earning above 100K anyway. Fair enough in good times, but in bad times it's not needed.

Couldn't agree more and I can't understand people who think that child benefit across the board is normal. Another lesson this government should learn is that they should be more careful with what they give people, because once it is given, it is usually taken for granted and is very difficult to take back.

K4t · 01-07-2009 4:14pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

Grand, brilliant, let them f*ck off to the UK or mainland Europe where they will get paid a lot lot less! You can't pander to that argument or you will always be overpaying people.

Too true.

Did anyone else hear the German Ambassador to ireland on the radio a few weeks ago. He was tlaking about his own daughter who is a high up medical consultant in germany and head of a department in a hospital. She earns just over 100,000 euro ffs and that was after a few years of work. This was the same German Ambassadior who lambasted Ireland a few years ago over our construction bubble etc. :rolleyes:

Idbatterim · 01-07-2009 4:16pm

either way im not a public sector worker, I also dont get receive a cent from the government! Being a private sector worker, they need to take an axe to the public service wage bill and welfare bill...

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 4:17pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

what about the wasters who pop out several kids, do you have a problem with them? why should you pay for their decision to have kids? if you are relying on the states child benefit to raise a kid, i feel sorry for it to be honest!

I've a problem with anyone getting child benefit. Those that actually need it now, as distinct from those that don't, need to be dealt with by different means. They need support and education to lift them out of poverty, but there is no justification on earth for those on incomes of 100K upwards getting child benefit.

Quazzie · 01-07-2009 4:19pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

either way im not a public sector worker, I also dont get receive a cent from the government! Being a private sector worker, they need to take an axe to the public service wage bill and welfare bill...

Well as long as you're ok, don't worry about anyone else.

Darragh29 · 01-07-2009 4:21pm

We need to change our whole outlook with this. The only question we need to ask from now on when it comes to handouts like child benefit is:

Do you really really need it?

If the answer is NO, then our answer must be, then you simply are not getting it anymore.

If the answer is YES, then you should remain entitled to it.

EDIT: And a smart government would have started asking that question 12 months ago when this recession became apparent. 12 months into things and the question hasn't even been asked yet.

Degsy · 01-07-2009 4:31pm

This is typical..everybody blaming each other and nobody mentioning the fcucking government.

It was thier fault,end of.

Irish Debt Clock?

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