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Thank God

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭3greenrizla's



    It just gets me, there has to be something similar that get to you.

    one thing I always find slightly amusing in these conversations is that it is deemed expectable by (Christian) society to thank god for whatever, but its not acceptable if someone said that the disabled/ill they are atoning for something that has happened in a previous life (reincarnation).

    this post is taken from another unrelated thread, but i can use it to kind of sum up what I am trying to say.
    robindch wrote: »

    It would be great if religious people would respect my wishes as a parent, but it seems that a certain portion of them simply won't.

    respect is a two way street, if you want people to respect your beliefs you should show a little respect for theirs. of course I might be totally wrong and you might not care what people think about your beliefs.

    & a quote from yet another thread LZ5by5 says it very well.

    Edit to add a quote from another thread where LZ5by% sums it up perfectly.
    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    ........ I get what you are saying. For a lot of people religion is a beacon of strength and hope rather than a way of life. If religion helps people to cope with bereavement then I, and no-one else, has the right to dismiss that person's belief as fickle or of lacking substance.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    respect is a two way street, if you want people to respect your beliefs you should show a little respect for theirs. of course I might be totally wrong and you might not care what people think about your beliefs.
    As an atheist, I've long ago gotten used to certain people taking a dim view of my beliefs. However, these people are welcome to their beliefs (and I have no interest in changing them), as I would like them to let me and my kid(s) be welcome to ours.

    Reciprocity is a two-way street.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭3greenrizla's


    robindch wrote: »
    Reciprocity is a two-way street.

    True & that is part of the problem that I have with religion, if everyone who claimed to be religious held to their beliefs and used their doctrine (10 commandments) as a guide to their lives the world would be a better place.

    I remember an occasion as a child when my mother let a traveller woman come into our shop to fill a bucket of water. a local lady told my mother that she should not do it because they were bringing down the tone of the area, my mother was a very religious woman (through illness) and was disgusted that this friend/neighbour, and someone who would sit up the top of the church could be so unchristian.

    we can only do what we feel is right in the end.


    Sorry for going off topic but to be fair when I originally clicked on the thread I was expecting you to be giving out about people thanking god for the rain stopping - I do that, what does everyone else do?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Sorry for going off topic but to be fair when I originally clicked on the thread I was expecting you to be giving out about people thanking god for the rain stopping - I do that, what does everyone else do?

    "Oh good, it stopped raining."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Sorry for going off topic but to be fair when I originally clicked on the thread I was expecting you to be giving out about people thanking god for the rain stopping - I do that, what does everyone else do?

    Well yes there is that, but the more serious ones get a more serious reaction from me.
    Thanking God for the rain stopping gets a rolleyes,
    saving someone's life =
    RAAAAGE.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    There is very little in this world that gets my goat more than people thanking God for something.

    I was reading the Praise The Lord thread over on Christianity a month or so back, and this poor woman fell ill to cancer. She pulled through, which is great (it's a terrible disease and the sooner it's cured, in all it's forms, the better)
    But then she started thanking god for pulling her through, not her own determination to live, not medical science, not her family's support.

    No, she thanks the cloud man, the same guy who won't save kids from starvation in Africa, the same who causes earth-quakes to knock schools and hospitals.

    I nearly broke my keyboard.

    Words fail me when this happens...

    Maybe I'm overreacting it's a definite possibility, but damn, it just gets me...

    Well it's not unusual for atheists to get worked up about a God they believe doesn't exist! LOL :pac:

    We Christians believe that all good comes from God so that's why she thanked God. But you wouldn't understand....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Well it's not unusual for atheists to get worked up about a God they believe doesn't exist! LOL :pac:

    We Christians believe that all good comes from God so that's why she thanked God. But you wouldn't understand....

    But the bad must also come from him surely?

    @OP: Not sure how it is for cancer and the like but I find myself saying "thank god" for a lot of things, purely out of force of habit. Can't seem to stop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    fitz0 wrote: »
    But the bad must also come from him surely?
    No, I don't believe so. I think all evil comes from us and the fallen angels (demons). We're not following God's plan for us. We're makings gods of ourselves
    and not realizing that all good comes from God. It is the action of the Holy Spirit in us which makes us want to do good and be selfless. What I mean is that regardless of whether we know it or not, the good we do is inspired by God. But the more we reject God, the more difficult it becomes for God's grace to operate within us.
    fitz0 wrote: »
    @OP: Not sure how it is for cancer and the like but I find myself saying "thank god" for a lot of things, purely out of force of habit. Can't seem to stop.
    That's the Spirit working in you! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No, I don't believe so. I think all evil comes from us and the fallen angels (demons)

    Which God created and gives continued existence to despite his ability to remove all evil from the world in the blink of an eye. So in reality, it comes from him at the heart of things.
    . We're not following God's plan for us. We're makings gods of ourselves.

    I love making myself a god, if I manage to get the time since I'm so busy making gods of sex and money


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Well it's not unusual for atheists to get worked up about a God they believe doesn't exist! LOL :pac:

    We Christians believe that all good comes from God so that's why she thanked God. But you wouldn't understand....

    We're getting worked up at the ridiculous situation of thanking the person who allowed you to get sick even though he could have prevented it when he allows you to get better. We're getting worked up at people, not a god that we don't believe is there

    Everything is supposed to come from god and that includes good and evil. You say bad comes from us and fallen angels but we came from god too, apparently. He has the power to prevent evil whenever he wants so you shouldn't be thanking him when he arbitrarily allows saddam hussein to survive an assassination attempt, you should hate him for all the times he didn't save an innocent child. No?

    As I said at the start of the thread, it's like thanking someone for taking their knife away from your throat


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Well it's not unusual for atheists to get worked up about a God they believe doesn't exist! LOL :pac:

    Generally atheists get worked up about what believers do and claim in the name of (and about) their God... but you already know that. :D

    We Christians believe that all good comes from God so that's why she thanked God. But you wouldn't understand....

    Just like you don't understand the irreconcilable dichotomy that we see in the behavior of the God character in the bible?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭Keith186


    There is very little in this world that gets my goat more than people thanking God for something.

    I was reading the Praise The Lord thread over on Christianity a month or so back, and this poor woman fell ill to cancer. She pulled through, which is great (it's a terrible disease and the sooner it's cured, in all it's forms, the better)
    But then she started thanking god for pulling her through, not her own determination to live, not medical science, not her family's support.

    No, she thanks the cloud man, the same guy who won't save kids from starvation in Africa, the same who causes earth-quakes to knock schools and hospitals.

    I nearly broke my keyboard.

    Words fail me when this happens...

    Maybe I'm overreacting it's a definite possibility, but damn, it just gets me...

    Ah well good for her. I feel the same way as you, think you are overreacting though you just have to realize some people are that way and were brought up that way. You and me know god didn't cure her but get over it.

    It's mostly just a figure of speech saying 'thank god' same as when someone here says your instead of you're, no biggie...

    PS: you'll probably see me in 1 or 2 years giving out about the same thing as you in the same spot on boards;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    kelly1 wrote: »
    We're not following God's plan for us. We're makings gods of ourselves
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole

    But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.

    For a god you claim is onmipotent and the creator of all things, there's an AWFUL lot of things he isn't responsible for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    kiffer wrote: »
    Just like you don't understand the irreconcilable dichotomy that we see in the behavior of the God character in the bible?
    According to the "Dialogue" by St. Catherine of Siena, the Old Law was based on fear whereas the New Covenant is bases on Love. God has always been a God of love but before the coming of Christ, sinners were punished immediately during their lifetime on earth e.g. by stoning. Now that Christ has come and died for our sins, God in His mercy is deferring judgment and punishment until after we die giving us time to repent.
    fitz0 wrote: »
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole
    God help him!
    fitz0 wrote: »
    But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.
    No God didn't create evil. He gave His creatures freedom to commit evil. There's a big difference. Forcing people to be good isn't love and it also doesn't allow us to gain merit/reward. You guys really should study some Christian theology and then ask questions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No God didn't create evil. He gave His creatures freedom to commit evil. There's a big difference. Forcing people to be good isn't love and it also doesn't allow us to gain merit/reward. You guys really should study some Christian theology and then ask questions.

    I'm going to stick with:But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.

    Why does a God of love allow, for example, natural disasters? Surely the victims can't learn any lesson and have done nothing to deserve it?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    God has always been a God of love

    That is the bit we don't see, and the bit Christians seem unable to explain. You just stick "God is love" beside the most horrific things and think that demonstrates that God is actually all about the love.

    God is love, that is why he rapes babies. Don't you see!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kelly1 wrote: »
    According to the "Dialogue" by St. Catherine of Siena, the Old Law was based on fear whereas the New Covenant is bases on Love. God has always been a God of love but before the coming of Christ, sinners were punished immediately during their lifetime on earth e.g. by stoning. Now that Christ has come and died for our sins, God in His mercy is deferring judgment and punishment until after we die giving us time to repent.

    Maybe if we hold out a bit longer, God's mercy will allow him defer judgement even longer, to allow us to repent after death.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    There is very little in this world that gets my goat more than people thanking God for something.

    I was reading the Praise The Lord thread over on Christianity a month or so back, and this poor woman fell ill to cancer. She pulled through, which is great (it's a terrible disease and the sooner it's cured, in all it's forms, the better)
    But then she started thanking god for pulling her through, not her own determination to live, not medical science, not her family's support.

    No, she thanks the cloud man, the same guy who won't save kids from starvation in Africa, the same who causes earth-quakes to knock schools and hospitals.

    I nearly broke my keyboard.

    Words fail me when this happens...

    Maybe I'm overreacting it's a definite possibility, but damn, it just gets me...

    That's funny because from my research it is the big nations and corporate companies that are keeping Africa poor. For example, they loaned one African country money, on the condition that an American company was the only company allowed to sell rice in that country.They were desperate for money so they took the loan.Cue thousands of men losing their jobs growing and selling rice,and the country getting poorer while America got richer.

    We all have free will to make things the way they are.Im going over to Africa next year,what are you going to do to help.

    Also that lady is getting a bit of peace while you are sitting there getting angry,who's losing in that situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    That's funny because from my research it is the big nations and corporate companies that are keeping Africa poor.
    And God who won't save them but will apparently save a woman in Ireland from cancer...

    Its funny how God only saves people from physical harm when he can get away with looking like he didn't actually do anything. Any harm that would require an event that would demonstrate he actually exists he seems to shy away from.

    I guess he works in mysterious ways ...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Wicknight wrote: »
    And God who won't save them but will apparently save a woman in Ireland from cancer...

    Its funny how God only saves people from physical harm when he can get away with looking like he didn't actually do anything. Any harm that would require an event that would demonstrate he actually exists he seems to shy away from.

    I guess he works in mysterious ways ...

    Ah Wicknight great I like a good debate.

    This is how I see things:

    God is not an all-deciding dicator that decides everything that happens. Nowhere in any religious teachings does it say that. After all why would we be judged if this is the case.

    We all have free will and decide what we do in life.God didnt make that lady sick, it could be any reason:diet, genetics etc. Also as you see in my previous post - God didnt make children in Africa poor either.

    God didnt save that lady either. People usually pray to God not to take away the bad things that are happening to him,but to give them the peace of mind to cope with their ordeal. Thats why people thank him. That particular lady could have been thanking him for giving her mental strength during her cancer.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Ah Wicknight great I like a good debate.

    This is how I see things:

    God is not an all-deciding dicator that decides everything that happens. Nowhere in any religious teachings does it say that. After all why would we be judged if this is the case.

    Then you may want to go to a better school, because last I heard the dude is supposed to be omnipotent.
    We all have free will and decide what we do in life.

    Simply not true.
    God didnt make that lady sick, it could be any reason:diet, genetics etc. Also as you see in my previous post - God didnt make children in Africa poor either.

    Actually he is the root cause according to you folks so he is pretty much responsible for all things occurring.
    God didnt save that lady either. People usually pray to God not to take away the bad things that are happening to him,but to give them the peace of mind to cope with their ordeal. Thats why people thank him. That particular lady could have been thanking him for giving her mental strength during her cancer.

    This quote is appropriate again:
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Of course God controls everything. Omniscience + Omnipotence means absolute power. It's a very simple bit of logic and you can dismiss it all you like but you can't counter it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Then you may want to go to a better school, because last I heard the dude is supposed to be omnipotent.

    CerebralCortex if you want to dispute my intelligence I graduated one of the highest in my class in my SCIENTIFIC degree (I know 'you folks' love science') so I'm not the most ill educated. I also continually educate myself in religion and science.

    Second of all omnipotence means all powerful. He is more powerful than everything else yes, it still doesnt say that he controls everything, does it. E.G Barrack Obama-one of the most powerful men in the world,does he control what happens to you in your life. Power/control - two different things.


    'Actually he is the root cause according to you folks so he is pretty much responsible for all things occurring.'

    Define exactly who you mean by 'you folks'.You're saying we all say that he is reponsible for all things occurring. Im not saying that am I, so that doesnt make any sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm going to stick with:But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.
    Of course God knew that evil would result from freedom. But freedom allows for growth and maturity. Love doesn't force itself on others, it encourages and leads to good. If God didn't give us a choice to do good or evil, would we be truly mature? I don't think so. And God also knows how to turn evil into good. e.g. a earthquake happens and people come to the aid of those trapped in the rubble showing acts of unselfish love with a unity of purpose.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Why does a God of love allow, for example, natural disasters? Surely the victims can't learn any lesson and have done nothing to deserve it?
    I don't know, maybe it's punishment, maybe it's random, no idea.

    This is what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say:

    "For Almighty God..., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in His works, if He were no so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself."

    The Compendium Catechism rephrases St. Thomas like this:

    "Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit evil if He did not cause a good to come from that very evil" and then gives the murder of Jesus as the perfect example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Simply not true.
    I'll never understand this view.:confused: When did God last force you to do something against your will? You're not a robot are you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'll never understand this view.:confused: When did God last force you to do something against your will? You're not a robot are you?

    Well I'll die I don't want to that. I would have preferred a different upbringing I didn't chose that. Do I have to list everything that goes against my will? Well actually when you think about it I am a very complicated robot.

    Edit I'm not saying God did anything. Just saying innumerate things happen against my will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course God knew that evil would result from freedom. But freedom allows for growth and maturity. Love doesn't force itself on others, it encourages and leads to good. If God didn't give us a choice to do good or evil, would we be truly mature? I don't think so. And God also knows how to turn evil into good. e.g. a earthquake happens and people come to the aid of those trapped in the rubble showing acts of unselfish love with a unity of purpose.
    Right so God allowed evil when he could have prevented it
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't know, maybe it's punishment, maybe it's random, no idea.

    This is what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say:

    "For Almighty God..., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in His works, if He were no so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself."

    The Compendium Catechism rephrases St. Thomas like this:

    "Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit evil if He did not cause a good to come from that very evil" and then gives the murder of Jesus as the perfect example.

    Right, so it's the tried and tested "everything happens for a reason" and "god works in mysterious ways as I said on the first page:
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    It's even more of a cop out than that. It's usually "god works in mysterious ways"

    I see nothing good about 100,000 people dying in a tsunami

    But at least you had the honesty to use the actual answer first, ie you don't know, which says to me that you can also see that the world as it exists today does not fit with the idea of a loving god, but you rationalise it like Mr. Aquinas there


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Well I'll die I don't want to that. I would have preferred a different upbringing I didn't chose that. Do I have to list everything that goes against my will? Well actually when you think about it I am a very complicated robot.

    Edit I'm not saying God did anything. Just saying innumerate things happen against my will.
    Sure lots of things happen which go against our wishes but we're never forced to to respond with evil, are we? We always have a choice to do good or evil. I'm talking about our own personal choices, not evil perpetrated by others over which we have no control.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    CerebralCortex if you want to dispute my intelligence I graduated one of the highest in my class in my SCIENTIFIC degree (I know 'you folks' love science') so I'm not the most ill educated. I also continually educate myself in religion and science.

    Whoa! Never said anything about your intelligence. You seem to have taken a lot of offense to my post and I don't understand why it wasn't personal.
    Second of all omnipotence means all powerful. He is more powerful than everything else yes, it still doesnt say that he controls everything, does it. E.G Barrack Obama-one of the most powerful men in the world,does he control what happens to you in your life. Power/control - two different things.

    Define exactly who you mean by 'you folks'.You're saying we all say that he is reponsible for all things occurring. Im not saying that am I, so that doesnt make any sense.

    Zillah's post is appropriate here:
    Zillah wrote: »
    Of course God controls everything. Omniscience + Omnipotence means absolute power. It's a very simple bit of logic and you can dismiss it all you like but you can't counter it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Sure lots of things happen which go against our wishes but we're never forced to to respond with evil, are we? We always have a choice to do good or evil. I'm talking about our own personal choices, not evil perpetrated by others over which we have no control.

    So your god gives us free will only in our ability to respond to things that happen outside of our will? In reality in that situation its just him imposing his will with the threat of eternal retribution if we do not obey.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You're not a robot are you?

    Er, yeah, you and I are essentially very complicated, gooey robots.

    The religious love to make out that humans are actually magical creatures, entirely special when compared to anything else is this base universe, but it's nothing more than an ignorant, childish fantasy.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No God didn't create evil. He gave His creatures freedom to commit evil.
    So he created humans with the capacity to murder, rape and mutilate each other, in the full knowledge that this would result in horrific things happening to the most innocent and vulnerable in society from day one, and then sits back, watches and keeps a ledger to see who gets what on judgment day?

    Does not compute - and never will. The omnipotent benevolent god concept is absolute tosh.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    So your god gives us free will only in our ability to respond to things that happen outside of our will? In reality in that situation its just him imposing his will with the threat of eternal retribution if we do not obey.


    Things that happen to you are controlled by other people, who are using their free will.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Whoa! Never said anything about your intelligence. You seem to have taken a lot of offense to my post and I don't understand why it wasn't personal.



    Zillah's post is appropriate here:

    Ifyou dont think telling some-one to back to school is insulting, I cant help you.

    On the contrary I dont think Zillahs post is relevant at all. He simply expanded your argument to include omniscience, which is why I didnt bother replying to it.

    Answer me this: All powerful and knowing everything that happens: where in any of that says he controls everything that happens. As I said before power and control are two very different things.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Dades wrote: »
    So he created humans with the capacity to murder, rape and mutilate each other, in the full knowledge that this would result in horrific things happening to the most innocent and vulnerable in society from day one, and then sits back, watches and keeps a ledger to see who gets what on judgment day?

    Does not compute - and never will. The omnipotent benevolent god concept is absolute tosh.

    Well answer me this - how would anything living not have the capacity to murder and rape. They are possible actions that arise from being alive.

    Why do some people murder and rape and others dont - some people decide not to care about the suffering of others and some do. It's all up to choices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    God didnt save that lady either. People usually pray to God not to take away the bad things that are happening to him,but to give them the peace of mind to cope with their ordeal.

    I'm not following. If God doesn't do anything in response to prayers how does that give someone who is praying peace of mind?
    Thats why people thank him. That particular lady could have been thanking him for giving her mental strength during her cancer.

    But surely that is him doing something? If he is going to interact with the world to give this woman strength then why not save children in Africa?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Things that happen to you are controlled by other people, who are using their free will.

    No argument there.
    If you dont think telling some-one to back to school is insulting, I cant help you.

    My choice of wording was poor but intention wasn't to tell you that you need to go back to school. I was implying what I was told through my teaching. It doesn't fit with yours.
    On the contrary I dont think Zillahs post is relevant at all. He simply expanded your argument to include omniscience, which is why I didnt bother replying to it.

    Funny that I do.
    Answer me this: All powerful and knowing everything that happens: where in any of that says he controls everything that happens. As I said before power and control are two very different things.

    :(

    In bold = omnipotent and omniscient means he knows everything and can and did do everything. Again let me repeat and emphasise everything.
    He created it all. If "he" is not responsible then perhaps he is not god.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Well answer me this - how would anything living not have the capacity to murder and rape. They are possible actions that arise from being alive.

    Why do some people murder and rape and others dont - some people decide not to care about the suffering of others and some do. It's all up to choices.
    That's hardly the point. The simple point is we live in harsh, brutal world. If a god is capable of creating a heaven - i.e. a place where people aren't raped and children don't die from leukemia, then what is he up to creating this chaotic ant farm of a world in the first place? That's without even getting into natural disasters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Well answer me this - how would anything living not have the capacity to murder and rape. They are possible actions that arise from being alive.

    That is ridiculous. It would be as easy for God to create life in such a way that one life form cannot harm another as it would be for him to the the opposite. He choose to do this this way (assuming he exists).

    As Dades says, does not compute


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I see nothing good about 100,000 people dying in a tsunami
    Neither do I but then I'm not God.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    But at least you had the honesty to use the actual answer first, ie you don't know, which says to me that you can also see that the world as it exists today does not fit with the idea of a loving god, but you rationalise it like Mr. Aquinas there
    Ultimately evil is a mystery but like I said, I think love must involve free-will. Coercion or being made an automaton doesn't demonstrate love.

    It's clear that God allows evil but it's not at all clear that He causes moral evil. I don't know about physical evil though. Maybe hurricanes etc are punishment, who knows?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Neither do I but then I'm not God.
    Yes but you do proclaim to some how know or believe that while you cannot see the good in that happen there must be some some where. Which seems even more illogical.

    The argument that humans are not knowledgeable enough to understand God falls down some what when Christians say thinks like they believe all good comes from God. Why do you believe this when you claim to not be able to understand it?

    Again this argument is only ever brought up when people are attacking the idea of a good God. You guys have no problem "understanding God" when proclaiming all the nice things about him.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Ultimately evil is a mystery but like I said, I think love must involve free-will. Coercion or being made an automaton doesn't demonstrate love.

    Says who?

    You aren't God so how do you know? Who are you to proclaim that God could not have created love that didn't involve free will?

    What standard are you judging God created unfree will love by?

    See where all this leads ... if the rest of us are as clueless to God and what he can and cannot do then equally so must you guys be.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    It's clear that God allows evil but it's not at all clear that He causes moral evil. I don't know about physical evil though. Maybe hurricanes etc are punishment, who knows?

    Well you guys apparently? You can proclaim you know all the good stuff, but the bad stuff is all one big great mystery. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Answer me this: All powerful and knowing everything that happens: where in any of that says he controls everything that happens. As I said before power and control are two very different things.

    The reason you're not following is because you're leaving out a key ingredient in our delicious evil-God cake: God created the universe.

    God knows all, sees all and has absolute power over everything. He sees the future. He knows, before he's even made the decision to do it, that when he creates the universe a certain way then certain things will happen. He knew that little Mary-Sue was gonna get murdered. He could have made a universe where that didn't happen, but he did anyway.

    God chose to make a universe where on earth the sky is blue. He knew full well the sky, when it formed would be blue. In just the same way, when he made the universe, he knew the way he made that universe would make a world where millions of infants die from disease every year before their first birthday. He could have made a different universe, where those children were loved and looked after and became poets and painters and teachers.

    He chose to make the universe with millions of rotting infant corpses instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭Naz_st


    Second of all omnipotence means all powerful. He is more powerful than everything else yes, it still doesnt say that he controls everything, does it.
    Why do some people murder and rape and others dont - some people decide not to care about the suffering of others and some do. It's all up to choices.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Ultimately evil is a mystery but like I said, I think love must involve free-will. Coercion or being made an automaton doesn't demonstrate love.

    It's clear that God allows evil but it's not at all clear that He causes moral evil. I don't know about physical evil though. Maybe hurricanes etc are punishment, who knows?

    I just don't get it.

    Let me summarise the position and perhaps someone can clarify:

    1) Either God exists or not?
    2) If he does, then either God loves us and cares about what happens to us or not?
    3) If he does, and since we know he has the power to intervene, then can someone please explain how he has allowed the decades long systematic child abuse and rape in this country by the very people who are supposed to be speaking in his name and spreading his word?

    To me there are only 2 logical conclusions from this:
    A) God doesn't exist
    B) God does exist but doesn't give a fcuk.

    I think the usual and trite sidestep of "God works in mysterious ways" is not enough, not by a long shot, when faced with the enormity of the evil and betrayal that has happened to multiple generations of children in this country at the hands of the religious orders.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Zillah wrote: »
    The reason you're not following is because you're leaving out a key ingredient in our delicious evil-God cake: God created the universe.

    God knows all, sees all and has absolute power over everything. He sees the future. He knows, before he's even made the decision to do it, that when he creates the universe a certain way then certain things will happen. He knew that little Mary-Sue was gonna get murdered. He could have made a universe where that didn't happen, but he did anyway.

    God chose to make a universe where on earth the sky is blue. He knew full well the sky, when it formed would be blue. In just the same way, when he made the universe, he knew the way he made that universe would make a world where millions of infants die from disease every year before their first birthday. He could have made a different universe, where those children were loved and looked after and became poets and painters and teachers.

    He chose to make the universe with millions of rotting infant corpses instead.

    I'm some what at a loss why so many of the Christians don't get this very simple point.

    Again they have no problem with the idea that God choose to create wonderful things for us. Yet they seem to think that anything bad is nothing to do with God. Why? There is no logic behind that. God created a universe with beautiful stars and he also created a universe with AIDS, skin that burns easily, lungs that can't breath under water and everything else that humans suffer through ever day.

    Logic dictates that nothing happens in the universe without God knowing it will happen and approving that it will happen.

    Again does not compute. We aren't all just atheists because we want to piss off our grandparents. This stuff simply doesn't make any sense. It is nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Wicknight wrote: »
    We aren't all just atheists because we want to piss off our grandparents. This stuff simply doesn't make any sense.

    Heh, that's pretty quotable :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Neither do I but then I'm not God.

    Ultimately evil is a mystery but like I said, I think love must involve free-will. Coercion or being made an automaton doesn't demonstrate love.

    It's clear that God allows evil but it's not at all clear that He causes moral evil. I don't know about physical evil though. Maybe hurricanes etc are punishment, who knows?

    To go back to the point of the thread, you can't take anything good in the world and call that evidence for god, then dismiss all the bad in the world, calling it a "mystery". It's only a mystery if you want to say God is doing the good stuff. Once you stop doing that you end up with a perfectly logical conclusion: sh!t just happens and god is making neither the good nor the bad happen


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Zillah wrote: »
    Heh, that's pretty quotable :)

    I charge €0.05 per sig usage

    Micro-payments baby! :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Yes but you do proclaim to some how know or believe that while you cannot see the good in that happen there must be some some where. Which seems even more illogical.
    I have faith that God is good because He was good enough to create us and when we insulted our Creator by sinning against Him, He didn't ask us to pay the price but instead sent His only beloved Son to die for us. I know this makes no sense to you, but it does to me. That is proof enough for me that God loves us and is serious about bringing us towards the glory we will have in sharing in His divine life. But then faith is anathema to you so there's probably not much I can say that you'll agree with.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    The argument that humans are not knowledgeable enough to understand God falls down some what when Christians say thinks like they believe all good comes from God. Why do you believe this when you claim to not be able to understand it?
    The good part is easy to understand. The problem is understanding evil. And not understanding evil (e.g natural disasters) could easily be a problem with our finite intelligence and knowledge.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Says who?

    You aren't God so how do you know? Who are you to proclaim that God could not have created love that didn't involve free will?

    What standard are you judging God created unfree will love by?
    I'm not talking about created love. I'm talking about the love God shows us in giving us free-will. Of course God could have made us incapable of evil and we'd probably be very happy etc. But maybe God had a better way? To me anyway, giving us free will shows a greater love for us. God demonstrated His love for us by creating us out of His goodness and wishes us to respond to His love so that our love will be true and unforced.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    See where all this leads ... if the rest of us are as clueless to God and what he can and cannot do then equally so must you guys be.
    There are lots of things that haven't been definitively revealed by God and I believe there is good reason for that. e.g Lets say God told us how many of us would be saved and how many would be damned. If the percentage saved were high, this could lead to complacency. If low, it could lead us to despair. Or if we knew the reason for suffering, would we come to the aid of those in need?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Well you guys apparently?
    What? I just said I didn't know why natural disasters etc happen.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    You can proclaim you know all the good stuff, but the bad stuff is all one big great mystery. :rolleyes:
    Not quite. I said that God doesn't cause moral evil. The physical evil (disasters etc) is a mystery.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I'm some what at a loss why so many of the Christians don't get this very simple point.
    It's not simple, there are unknown quantities at play! There is some speculation involved.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Again they have no problem with the idea that God choose to create wonderful things for us. Yet they seem to think that anything bad is nothing to do with God. Why?
    Why can't you accept the idea that all bad/evil comes from us? Having the ability to sin doesn't cause us to do so. We always have a choice guided by our conscience. Are we forced to do evil???

    And as regards natural disaster, disease etc, I would speculate that God would prevent these things if we were obedient to His commandments. Divine justice doesn't allow sin to go unpunished. Whether we pay now or later is up to God. I'm convinced that if the majority of us loved God, He would prevent all disasters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Zillah's four step guide on how to think like a believer!

    Step 1: Conclude that God exists and that he is good.

    Step 2: Say absolutely anything in defense of Step 1. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense, just remember, you're only pretending to be rational!

    Step 3: If anything appears to confirm Step 1, repeat it endlessly. If anything contradicts Step 1, either ignore it or call it a mystery.

    Step 4: Never ever be afraid to sound absolutely ridiculous.


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