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Thank God

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    #62
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Well it's not unusual for atheists to get worked up about a God they believe doesn't exist! LOL :pac:

    Generally atheists get worked up about what believers do and claim in the name of (and about) their God... but you already know that. :D

    We Christians believe that all good comes from God so that's why she thanked God. But you wouldn't understand....

    Just like you don't understand the irreconcilable dichotomy that we see in the behavior of the God character in the bible?


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    #63
    Keith186
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭Keith186


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    There is very little in this world that gets my goat more than people thanking God for something.

    I was reading the Praise The Lord thread over on Christianity a month or so back, and this poor woman fell ill to cancer. She pulled through, which is great (it's a terrible disease and the sooner it's cured, in all it's forms, the better)
    But then she started thanking god for pulling her through, not her own determination to live, not medical science, not her family's support.

    No, she thanks the cloud man, the same guy who won't save kids from starvation in Africa, the same who causes earth-quakes to knock schools and hospitals.

    I nearly broke my keyboard.

    Words fail me when this happens...

    Maybe I'm overreacting it's a definite possibility, but damn, it just gets me...

    Ah well good for her. I feel the same way as you, think you are overreacting though you just have to realize some people are that way and were brought up that way. You and me know god didn't cure her but get over it.

    It's mostly just a figure of speech saying 'thank god' same as when someone here says your instead of you're, no biggie...

    PS: you'll probably see me in 1 or 2 years giving out about the same thing as you in the same spot on boards;)


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    #64
    fitz0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    kelly1 wrote: »
    We're not following God's plan for us. We're makings gods of ourselves
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole

    But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.

    For a god you claim is onmipotent and the creator of all things, there's an AWFUL lot of things he isn't responsible for.


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    #65
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    kiffer wrote: »
    Just like you don't understand the irreconcilable dichotomy that we see in the behavior of the God character in the bible?
    According to the "Dialogue" by St. Catherine of Siena, the Old Law was based on fear whereas the New Covenant is bases on Love. God has always been a God of love but before the coming of Christ, sinners were punished immediately during their lifetime on earth e.g. by stoning. Now that Christ has come and died for our sins, God in His mercy is deferring judgment and punishment until after we die giving us time to repent.
    fitz0 wrote: »
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole
    God help him!
    fitz0 wrote: »
    But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.
    No God didn't create evil. He gave His creatures freedom to commit evil. There's a big difference. Forcing people to be good isn't love and it also doesn't allow us to gain merit/reward. You guys really should study some Christian theology and then ask questions.


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    #66
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No God didn't create evil. He gave His creatures freedom to commit evil. There's a big difference. Forcing people to be good isn't love and it also doesn't allow us to gain merit/reward. You guys really should study some Christian theology and then ask questions.

    I'm going to stick with:But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.

    Why does a God of love allow, for example, natural disasters? Surely the victims can't learn any lesson and have done nothing to deserve it?


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    #67
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    God has always been a God of love

    That is the bit we don't see, and the bit Christians seem unable to explain. You just stick "God is love" beside the most horrific things and think that demonstrates that God is actually all about the love.

    God is love, that is why he rapes babies. Don't you see!!


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    #68
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kelly1 wrote: »
    According to the "Dialogue" by St. Catherine of Siena, the Old Law was based on fear whereas the New Covenant is bases on Love. God has always been a God of love but before the coming of Christ, sinners were punished immediately during their lifetime on earth e.g. by stoning. Now that Christ has come and died for our sins, God in His mercy is deferring judgment and punishment until after we die giving us time to repent.

    Maybe if we hold out a bit longer, God's mercy will allow him defer judgement even longer, to allow us to repent after death.


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    #69
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    There is very little in this world that gets my goat more than people thanking God for something.

    I was reading the Praise The Lord thread over on Christianity a month or so back, and this poor woman fell ill to cancer. She pulled through, which is great (it's a terrible disease and the sooner it's cured, in all it's forms, the better)
    But then she started thanking god for pulling her through, not her own determination to live, not medical science, not her family's support.

    No, she thanks the cloud man, the same guy who won't save kids from starvation in Africa, the same who causes earth-quakes to knock schools and hospitals.

    I nearly broke my keyboard.

    Words fail me when this happens...

    Maybe I'm overreacting it's a definite possibility, but damn, it just gets me...

    That's funny because from my research it is the big nations and corporate companies that are keeping Africa poor. For example, they loaned one African country money, on the condition that an American company was the only company allowed to sell rice in that country.They were desperate for money so they took the loan.Cue thousands of men losing their jobs growing and selling rice,and the country getting poorer while America got richer.

    We all have free will to make things the way they are.Im going over to Africa next year,what are you going to do to help.

    Also that lady is getting a bit of peace while you are sitting there getting angry,who's losing in that situation.


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    #70
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    That's funny because from my research it is the big nations and corporate companies that are keeping Africa poor.
    And God who won't save them but will apparently save a woman in Ireland from cancer...

    Its funny how God only saves people from physical harm when he can get away with looking like he didn't actually do anything. Any harm that would require an event that would demonstrate he actually exists he seems to shy away from.

    I guess he works in mysterious ways ...


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    #71
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Wicknight wrote: »
    And God who won't save them but will apparently save a woman in Ireland from cancer...

    Its funny how God only saves people from physical harm when he can get away with looking like he didn't actually do anything. Any harm that would require an event that would demonstrate he actually exists he seems to shy away from.

    I guess he works in mysterious ways ...

    Ah Wicknight great I like a good debate.

    This is how I see things:

    God is not an all-deciding dicator that decides everything that happens. Nowhere in any religious teachings does it say that. After all why would we be judged if this is the case.

    We all have free will and decide what we do in life.God didnt make that lady sick, it could be any reason:diet, genetics etc. Also as you see in my previous post - God didnt make children in Africa poor either.

    God didnt save that lady either. People usually pray to God not to take away the bad things that are happening to him,but to give them the peace of mind to cope with their ordeal. Thats why people thank him. That particular lady could have been thanking him for giving her mental strength during her cancer.


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    #72
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Ah Wicknight great I like a good debate.

    This is how I see things:

    God is not an all-deciding dicator that decides everything that happens. Nowhere in any religious teachings does it say that. After all why would we be judged if this is the case.

    Then you may want to go to a better school, because last I heard the dude is supposed to be omnipotent.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    We all have free will and decide what we do in life.

    Simply not true.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    God didnt make that lady sick, it could be any reason:diet, genetics etc. Also as you see in my previous post - God didnt make children in Africa poor either.

    Actually he is the root cause according to you folks so he is pretty much responsible for all things occurring.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    God didnt save that lady either. People usually pray to God not to take away the bad things that are happening to him,but to give them the peace of mind to cope with their ordeal. Thats why people thank him. That particular lady could have been thanking him for giving her mental strength during her cancer.

    This quote is appropriate again:
    "When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole


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    #73
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Of course God controls everything. Omniscience + Omnipotence means absolute power. It's a very simple bit of logic and you can dismiss it all you like but you can't counter it.


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    #74
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Then you may want to go to a better school, because last I heard the dude is supposed to be omnipotent.

    CerebralCortex if you want to dispute my intelligence I graduated one of the highest in my class in my SCIENTIFIC degree (I know 'you folks' love science') so I'm not the most ill educated. I also continually educate myself in religion and science.

    Second of all omnipotence means all powerful. He is more powerful than everything else yes, it still doesnt say that he controls everything, does it. E.G Barrack Obama-one of the most powerful men in the world,does he control what happens to you in your life. Power/control - two different things.


    'Actually he is the root cause according to you folks so he is pretty much responsible for all things occurring.'

    Define exactly who you mean by 'you folks'.You're saying we all say that he is reponsible for all things occurring. Im not saying that am I, so that doesnt make any sense.


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    #75
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm going to stick with:But if god created all angels, surely in his omniscience he knew some would become "fallen" => he knew he was creating evil => all evil comes from god directly.
    Of course God knew that evil would result from freedom. But freedom allows for growth and maturity. Love doesn't force itself on others, it encourages and leads to good. If God didn't give us a choice to do good or evil, would we be truly mature? I don't think so. And God also knows how to turn evil into good. e.g. a earthquake happens and people come to the aid of those trapped in the rubble showing acts of unselfish love with a unity of purpose.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Why does a God of love allow, for example, natural disasters? Surely the victims can't learn any lesson and have done nothing to deserve it?
    I don't know, maybe it's punishment, maybe it's random, no idea.

    This is what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say:

    "For Almighty God..., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in His works, if He were no so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself."

    The Compendium Catechism rephrases St. Thomas like this:

    "Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit evil if He did not cause a good to come from that very evil" and then gives the murder of Jesus as the perfect example.


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    #76
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Simply not true.
    I'll never understand this view.:confused: When did God last force you to do something against your will? You're not a robot are you?


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    #77
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'll never understand this view.:confused: When did God last force you to do something against your will? You're not a robot are you?

    Well I'll die I don't want to that. I would have preferred a different upbringing I didn't chose that. Do I have to list everything that goes against my will? Well actually when you think about it I am a very complicated robot.

    Edit I'm not saying God did anything. Just saying innumerate things happen against my will.


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    #78
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course God knew that evil would result from freedom. But freedom allows for growth and maturity. Love doesn't force itself on others, it encourages and leads to good. If God didn't give us a choice to do good or evil, would we be truly mature? I don't think so. And God also knows how to turn evil into good. e.g. a earthquake happens and people come to the aid of those trapped in the rubble showing acts of unselfish love with a unity of purpose.
    Right so God allowed evil when he could have prevented it
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't know, maybe it's punishment, maybe it's random, no idea.

    This is what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say:

    "For Almighty God..., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in His works, if He were no so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself."

    The Compendium Catechism rephrases St. Thomas like this:

    "Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit evil if He did not cause a good to come from that very evil" and then gives the murder of Jesus as the perfect example.

    Right, so it's the tried and tested "everything happens for a reason" and "god works in mysterious ways as I said on the first page:
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    It's even more of a cop out than that. It's usually "god works in mysterious ways"

    I see nothing good about 100,000 people dying in a tsunami

    But at least you had the honesty to use the actual answer first, ie you don't know, which says to me that you can also see that the world as it exists today does not fit with the idea of a loving god, but you rationalise it like Mr. Aquinas there


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    #79
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Well I'll die I don't want to that. I would have preferred a different upbringing I didn't chose that. Do I have to list everything that goes against my will? Well actually when you think about it I am a very complicated robot.

    Edit I'm not saying God did anything. Just saying innumerate things happen against my will.
    Sure lots of things happen which go against our wishes but we're never forced to to respond with evil, are we? We always have a choice to do good or evil. I'm talking about our own personal choices, not evil perpetrated by others over which we have no control.


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    #80
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    CerebralCortex if you want to dispute my intelligence I graduated one of the highest in my class in my SCIENTIFIC degree (I know 'you folks' love science') so I'm not the most ill educated. I also continually educate myself in religion and science.

    Whoa! Never said anything about your intelligence. You seem to have taken a lot of offense to my post and I don't understand why it wasn't personal.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Second of all omnipotence means all powerful. He is more powerful than everything else yes, it still doesnt say that he controls everything, does it. E.G Barrack Obama-one of the most powerful men in the world,does he control what happens to you in your life. Power/control - two different things.

    Define exactly who you mean by 'you folks'.You're saying we all say that he is reponsible for all things occurring. Im not saying that am I, so that doesnt make any sense.

    Zillah's post is appropriate here:
    Zillah wrote: »
    Of course God controls everything. Omniscience + Omnipotence means absolute power. It's a very simple bit of logic and you can dismiss it all you like but you can't counter it.


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    #81
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Sure lots of things happen which go against our wishes but we're never forced to to respond with evil, are we? We always have a choice to do good or evil. I'm talking about our own personal choices, not evil perpetrated by others over which we have no control.

    So your god gives us free will only in our ability to respond to things that happen outside of our will? In reality in that situation its just him imposing his will with the threat of eternal retribution if we do not obey.


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    #82
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You're not a robot are you?

    Er, yeah, you and I are essentially very complicated, gooey robots.

    The religious love to make out that humans are actually magical creatures, entirely special when compared to anything else is this base universe, but it's nothing more than an ignorant, childish fantasy.


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    #83
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No God didn't create evil. He gave His creatures freedom to commit evil.
    So he created humans with the capacity to murder, rape and mutilate each other, in the full knowledge that this would result in horrific things happening to the most innocent and vulnerable in society from day one, and then sits back, watches and keeps a ledger to see who gets what on judgment day?

    Does not compute - and never will. The omnipotent benevolent god concept is absolute tosh.


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    #84
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    So your god gives us free will only in our ability to respond to things that happen outside of our will? In reality in that situation its just him imposing his will with the threat of eternal retribution if we do not obey.


    Things that happen to you are controlled by other people, who are using their free will.


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    #85
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Whoa! Never said anything about your intelligence. You seem to have taken a lot of offense to my post and I don't understand why it wasn't personal.



    Zillah's post is appropriate here:

    Ifyou dont think telling some-one to back to school is insulting, I cant help you.

    On the contrary I dont think Zillahs post is relevant at all. He simply expanded your argument to include omniscience, which is why I didnt bother replying to it.

    Answer me this: All powerful and knowing everything that happens: where in any of that says he controls everything that happens. As I said before power and control are two very different things.


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    #86
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Dades wrote: »
    So he created humans with the capacity to murder, rape and mutilate each other, in the full knowledge that this would result in horrific things happening to the most innocent and vulnerable in society from day one, and then sits back, watches and keeps a ledger to see who gets what on judgment day?

    Does not compute - and never will. The omnipotent benevolent god concept is absolute tosh.

    Well answer me this - how would anything living not have the capacity to murder and rape. They are possible actions that arise from being alive.

    Why do some people murder and rape and others dont - some people decide not to care about the suffering of others and some do. It's all up to choices.


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    #87
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    God didnt save that lady either. People usually pray to God not to take away the bad things that are happening to him,but to give them the peace of mind to cope with their ordeal.

    I'm not following. If God doesn't do anything in response to prayers how does that give someone who is praying peace of mind?
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Thats why people thank him. That particular lady could have been thanking him for giving her mental strength during her cancer.

    But surely that is him doing something? If he is going to interact with the world to give this woman strength then why not save children in Africa?


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    #88
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Things that happen to you are controlled by other people, who are using their free will.

    No argument there.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    If you dont think telling some-one to back to school is insulting, I cant help you.

    My choice of wording was poor but intention wasn't to tell you that you need to go back to school. I was implying what I was told through my teaching. It doesn't fit with yours.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    On the contrary I dont think Zillahs post is relevant at all. He simply expanded your argument to include omniscience, which is why I didnt bother replying to it.

    Funny that I do.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Answer me this: All powerful and knowing everything that happens: where in any of that says he controls everything that happens. As I said before power and control are two very different things.

    :(

    In bold = omnipotent and omniscient means he knows everything and can and did do everything. Again let me repeat and emphasise everything.
    He created it all. If "he" is not responsible then perhaps he is not god.


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    #89
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Well answer me this - how would anything living not have the capacity to murder and rape. They are possible actions that arise from being alive.

    Why do some people murder and rape and others dont - some people decide not to care about the suffering of others and some do. It's all up to choices.
    That's hardly the point. The simple point is we live in harsh, brutal world. If a god is capable of creating a heaven - i.e. a place where people aren't raped and children don't die from leukemia, then what is he up to creating this chaotic ant farm of a world in the first place? That's without even getting into natural disasters.


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    #90
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Well answer me this - how would anything living not have the capacity to murder and rape. They are possible actions that arise from being alive.

    That is ridiculous. It would be as easy for God to create life in such a way that one life form cannot harm another as it would be for him to the the opposite. He choose to do this this way (assuming he exists).

    As Dades says, does not compute


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    #91
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I see nothing good about 100,000 people dying in a tsunami
    Neither do I but then I'm not God.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    But at least you had the honesty to use the actual answer first, ie you don't know, which says to me that you can also see that the world as it exists today does not fit with the idea of a loving god, but you rationalise it like Mr. Aquinas there
    Ultimately evil is a mystery but like I said, I think love must involve free-will. Coercion or being made an automaton doesn't demonstrate love.

    It's clear that God allows evil but it's not at all clear that He causes moral evil. I don't know about physical evil though. Maybe hurricanes etc are punishment, who knows?


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