Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Primary schools - help!

  • 27-05-2009 11:29am
    #1
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭


    From what I have gathered the order of enrollment for catholic primary schools (which make up 92% of all primary schools in the country according to Newstalk yesterday) is as follows:
    1. Catholic Children in the parish
    2. Catholic children outside the parish
    3. Other christians faiths
    4. Anyone else.

    I do not wish to christian my kids but I am coming around to the opinion that I will have to just so that my children get into a school at all. The nearest Educate Together school is about 7 miles away (in morning traffic it would take about an hour to get there from my house, not ideal but not a problem) I would love to send them there but they have a waiting list so long it basically means I dont stand a chance.

    My local primary schools (there are a few of them) also have waiting lists and I have discretly enquired and have been told my child would be at the bottom of the list for a place. I pay my taxes too just like everyone else. I am not bashing religious schools. I just want an alternative for my children.

    What are my options? Anyone been through this? Being raised by the nuns myself I am not against religion per se (even though I have rejected it as an adult) but I really do not want to go through the whole christening thing and say those words that I do not believe. My other half feels the same way and was never raised catholic. I want to quietly live as an athiest and be allowed to do that without jepordising my kids chances in life (a sad fact in Ireland but the reality)

    Any advise really appreciated.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Was a big thread about it last year, here.

    My own opinion is if you are not overtly anti-theist, would be to suck it up, and do the baptism thing. It only takes half an hour - compare that to an hour in traffic every day for years. :)

    It doesn't make the system right, but at least you get less of a humping from it.


  • #3
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    My own sister got her kid baptized a few weeks back to avoid being discriminated against by her local catholic school.

    If you've no irreligious schools in your area (eg, Educate Together) then my recommendation is that you bite your tongue, go through with the ceremony, get the bit of paper you need, and proceed as though nothing had happened. I believe you can request that your kid be excused from religion "classes" later.


  • #4
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Dades wrote: »
    My own opinion is if you are not overtly anti-theist, would be to suck it up, and do the baptism thing.

    Astounding :confused: That's a great life lesson right there: "Son, tell whatever lies you want to religious people if it means you have to commute less in a day"

    You don't have to be anti-theist to realize how malleable a childs mind is and how much power teachers are given.

    OP, schools in your area might be Catholic (i.e. have "St." in the name and/or a church in the grounds) but I don't think it is a requirement with all of them that your child be baptized, or even Catholic. I was not Catholic when I went to a Catholic Primary School and my parents simply asked that I be exempt from religious class, which I was allowed.


  • #5
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    It is possible to be an atheist and a realist at the same time.

    MrP


  • #6
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Dont the parents have to make some sort of declaration during baptism to bring up the children as catholics or can I defer that part to the godparents? I dont mind saying the mumbo, jumbo about satan and all his works and empty promises etc..... but promising to bring them up catholic when I would never bring them to church or expect them to say prayers is going to be hard.

    I could suck it up and "win a Tony award at the altar " as you so eloquently put it yourself :p but I would feel hipocritical and the rest of my family (some are pretty stauchly religious) would not let me forget just how much of a hipocrate I am and all things being equal I would rather not do that.

    Having read the other tread (thanks for the link) I am beginning to think that its my only choice. It truely makes me sad and disollusioned about this country.

    What do other people do? Is Educate Together my only option? Do they have secondary schools?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    death1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭death1234567


    MrPudding wrote: »
    It is possible to be an atheist and a realist at the same time.
    In this country the two go hand in hand. The refusal to reform state schooling in this country is mind boggling, I guess the masses still want their little johnny to get a nice suit and have first communion in the schools without actually having to do anything themselves. Get the kid baptised, once he/she has their first day of school burn it.


  • #8
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    OP, schools in your area might be Catholic (i.e. have "St." in the name and/or a church in the grounds) but I don't think it is a requirement with all of them that your child be baptized, or even Catholic. I was not Catholic when I went to a Catholic Primary School and my parents simply asked that I be exempt from religious class, which I was allowed.

    The ones in my local area (within a 10 miles radius) have all quoted the above order of enrollment to me, putting my children firmly at the bottom. They never say its a requirement, but in an area that has too many applications for school, it becomes the only requirement.

    I didnt approach other schools in the area (there are a few church of ireland schools but I dont know what their criteria are, I will check them out)


  • #9
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    homeOwner wrote: »
    What do other people do? Is Educate Together my only option? Do they have secondary schools?

    Best advice would be to meet with the Principles of the schools in your area and voice your questions to them. Tell them you do not want to have your child baptized but would like your child to attend their school. My parents did the same thing and the principle was agreeable.

    It would be better to exhaust all options and avenues first before proceeding with a spurious baptism.


  • #10
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    death1234567 wrote: »
    In this country the two go hand in hand. The refusal to reform state schooling in this country is mind boggling, I guess the masses still want their little johnny to get a nice suit and have first communion in the schools without actually having to do anything themselves. Get the kid baptised, once he/she has their first day of school burn it.

    I probably will end up doing just that. The worry doesnt end there, then its communion, confirmation....how have your kids coped with being the "outsiders" in school not joining in? Is it becoming more normal now for parents to have their kids opt out. I just want my kids to not be sinlged out for being "different" and try to give them a good start.

    In normal everyday life I wouldnt dream of pretending to be something just to fit in. I am totally the opposite, well able to stand up for my opinions but when it comes to children.......its very difficult.


  • #11
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    I don't think it is a requirement with all of them that your child be baptized, or even Catholic. I was not Catholic when I went to a Catholic Primary School and my parents simply asked that I be exempt from religious class, which I was allowed.
    The issue isn't whether non-catholics are allowed in, but where they are put on the queue.

    Catholic-controlled schools are permitted -- and certainly do -- actively push non-catholics down the queue to make way for catholics who apply for a place after them. Given the pressure on primary schools in this country, this does lead to ghettoization, for example, in the infamous case of Diswellstown a couple of years back.

    It is preposterously discriminatory and in such circumstances, I think that one has a unfortunate duty to put the education of your kid ahead of any scruples that one has about two minutes of dishonesty when the kid's too young to know the difference. Or in summary, if the church wasn't dishonest enough to do this, they wouldn't invite reciprocal dishonesty.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Best advice would be to meet with the Principles of the schools in your area and voice your questions to them. Tell them you do not want to have your child baptized but would like your child to attend their school. My parents did the same thing and the principle was agreeable. .

    Not sure if I am being clear. The principals are totally happy for me to have my children apply. They have no issue with my kids not being baptised. They are really welcoming.

    However, their enrollment policy puts my kids behind all the other kids in the parish. The reality is I have not got a snowballs change in hell of my kids actually getting into the school due to the numbers of kids that live in my locality.


  • #13
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    robindch wrote: »
    in such circumstances, I think that one has a unfortunate duty to put the education of your kid ahead of any scruples that one has about two minutes of dishonesty when the kid's too young to know the difference. Or in summary, if the church wasn't dishonest enough to do this, they wouldn't invite reciprocal dishonesty.

    I was about to type "god bless you" :eek: as a throw back to my catholic upbringing but you get the sentiment!

    In fact I think I am going to steal that quote from you above if ever challanged by my siblings for being so hipocritical as to get my kids baptised.

    Thank you for those words.:)


  • #14
    death1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭death1234567


    homeOwner wrote: »
    I probably will end up doing just that. The worry doesnt end there, then its communion, confirmation....how have your kids coped with being the "outsiders" in school not joining in? Is it becoming more normal now for parents to have their kids opt out. I just want my kids to not be sinlged out for being "different" and try to give them a good start.
    If its any consilation, I was in a catholic school, I was baptised, I had first communion, Confirmation and was dragged to mass on a weekly basis for 16 odd years. I'm now a super-duper atheist, so it all works out in the end.

    I have no kids of my own so I can't comment about how many opt out nowadays.


  • #15
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    homeOwner wrote: »
    how have your kids coped with being the "outsiders" in school not joining in?

    I opted out for communion and religious class and I was never treated differently by the kids in my class. Thankfully I think, at 5 years old most children haven't learnt to discriminate yet against people who don't dress up and sit in a big building with a cross on top of it. Also note that this was 20 years ago in a small Catholic town in Ireland, I'd say it's even more unlikely now that your child would be ostracized, considering how diverse a lot of Ireland has become.
    robindch wrote: »
    I think that one has a unfortunate duty to put the education of your kid ahead of any scruples that one has about two minutes of dishonesty when the kid's too young to know the difference.

    Personally I'd also put commuting time ahead of two minutes of dishonesty, but that's me. I do not think securing a good education for my child and holding onto my principles are mutually exclusive. Lying is not the only option available here.
    homeOwner wrote: »
    They never say its a requirement, but in an area that has too many applications for school, it becomes the only requirement.

    Can I ask how you know the application numbers for the schools in your area? Like I said, I'd meet with the Principles in your area personally and be frank about asking them what they think your chances are of getting you child into the school if they are not Catholic.


  • #16
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    robindch wrote: »
    My own sister got her kid baptized a few weeks back to avoid being discriminated against by her local catholic school.

    If you've no irreligious schools in your area (eg, Educate Together) then my recommendation is that you bite your tongue, go through with the ceremony, get the bit of paper you need, and proceed as though nothing had happened. I believe you can request that your kid be excused from religion "classes" later.

    I change my opinion on this every time I think about it. After the publication of the Ryan report, last week, I would consider it immoral to support a quazi-nazi instituition in any way at all.

    On the other hand, I'd also be worried about my children mixing with munster fans, especially the ones whose parents think it's ok to wear a munster jersey at a final they weren't even playing at. Inevitabley this will happen and I'll have to grin and bear.

    So either way I suspect they will be some challenging times when Tim Robbins Junior / Junior-ette, arrives in November later this year.


  • #17
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Can I ask how you know the application numbers for the schools in your area?

    From friends in the area who have kids older than mine and the schools themselves tell me that they frequently receive more applications than they have places, hence their explaination of the order of enrollment.

    I assume enrollment numbers differ year to year and maybe I'll get lucky when mine are ready to go but I dont want to have to rely on luck.


  • #18
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    homeOwner wrote: »
    From friends in the area who have kids older than mine and the schools themselves tell me that they frequently receive more applications than they have places, hence their explaination of the order of enrollment.

    I assume enrollment numbers differ year to year and maybe I'll get lucky when mine are ready to go but I dont want to have to rely on luck.

    Most parents put their kids down for about four schools and then just pick one.


  • #19
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Most parents put their kids down for about four schools and then just pick one.

    Great! so they'll be bottom of the list in 4 schools :D

    Well I cant just pick one - the school will pick me :(

    Is there any good news out there at all regarding this? Are there any moves to change the ethos of national schools? Is there any possibility that the religious will sign over schools to the state in the forseeable future? I am thoroughly depressed about it.


  • #20
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    homeOwner wrote: »
    Is there any good news out there at all regarding this? Are there any moves to change the ethos of national schools? Is there any possibility that the religious will sign over schools to the state in the forseeable future? I am thoroughly depressed about it.
    There are two organisations who are trying to change things:
    1.
    The Humanist Association of Ireland
    2.
    Educate Together

    Unfortunately neither have much public support. If they did they'd be able to put pressure on the government in the same way as Teacher's Unions do.


  • #21
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    homeOwner wrote: »
    Is there any good news out there at all regarding this? Are there any moves to change the ethos of national schools? Is there any possibility that the religious will sign over schools to the state in the forseeable future? I am thoroughly depressed about it.

    See this is the problem. View this thread as a microcosm of the state of secular Ireland atm. Sure we all don't like the school system, but the majority of advice you are getting here is apathetic and telling you to take the easiest option for yourself and your child.

    Apply early to every prospective school in your area and meet personally with the Principles to voice your concerns about discrimination. Meet with the people at "Educate Together" and see if they have any information for you regarding your area.

    If every Atheist and Secularist caves like is being recommended to you in this thread then your child will grow up and have to also lie to get his child into school.

    On a personal note, I've never known my father or mother to lie, they took a chance and applied for a very Catholic school and told the principle they where not Catholic. I got in, but today my parents consistent honesty has had a greater effect on me personally than anything I learnt in that school.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    I opted out for communion and religious class and I was never treated differently by the kids in my class. ... I'd say it's even more unlikely now that your child would be ostracized, considering how diverse a lot of Ireland has become.
    I'd agree with this and it is important. If baptising a child meant having to go through every catholic ceremony while they were in the school it would be different. As mentioned, however, you can opt your child out as soon as they are accepted, without too much fear of discrimination.
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Personally I'd also put commuting time ahead of two minutes of dishonesty, but that's me. I do not think securing a good education for my child and holding onto my principles are mutually exclusive. Lying is not the only option available here.
    Do you really have scruples about lying to (a) a deity you don't believe exists, or (b) a member of clergy? Also, I take it you have no kids and get more than an hour's freetime to live your life everyday. :p
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Like I said, I'd meet with the Principles in your area personally and be frank about asking them what they think your chances are of getting you child into the school if they are not Catholic.
    I would not do this for fear of "flagging" your child with the RC school principles. They might not look kindly on a 'spuriously' baptised child knowing you believe none of it and are in fact resentful of having to do it. If you think you may go down the water-splash route - keep under the radar.


  • #23
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    I'm of two minds but at the end of the day, your childs education is the important thing here not your principles.

    While there's a lot of talk right now about debaptisms and Defection by Formal Act, that's always something your child can take upon themselves when older.
    I presume since your posting this here, you'll be bringing your child up in a humanist tradition at home. As was on the radio this morning, a child spends 15% of it's time from 5-18 in school, they'll spend a lot more time with you.

    As Dades says, I'd keep quiet and just get the child baptised.


  • #24
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Dades wrote: »
    I would not do this for fear of "flagging" your child with the RC school principles. They might not look kindly on a 'spuriously' baptised child knowing you believe none of it and are in fact resentful of having to do it. If you think you may go down the water-splash route - keep under the radar.

    If I go down this route I would tend to agree with you and keep quiet. Once you start down it there's no point in taking it all back.
    Nevore wrote: »
    I'm of two minds but at the end of the day, your childs education is the important thing here not your principles.

    I wish I had the where-withall to "change the system" but I am not one of those people. Hopefully someone more eloquent, more intelligent, more "something" than I will be the catalyst to achieve proper secular schooling in Ireland but I will probably take the easy route and keep quiet.

    Maybe the problem is that I know they will probably get a great education, so I really dont have any incentive to NEED change. Principles on the one hand mean nothing in the face of getting a good education but on the other hand it means keeping a "lie" for 15 years while my children go through school and denying a principle that is integral to who I am and how much I just do not believe in any god at all.

    I have alot of thinking to do.


  • #25
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.


  • #26
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Malari wrote: »
    I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.

    Meanwhile back in the real world people are rightly attempting to secure a decent education for their children in the here and now. I'm going to leave it to the highly principled childless individuals to change the system for those of us juggling jobs, children and soiled nappies.

    Get the kid baptised, have a couple of drinks, and then forget about the whole god thing until the next kid arrives.


  • #27
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Meanwhile back in the real world people are rightly attempting to secure a decent education for their children in the here and now. I'm going to leave it to the highly principled childless individuals to change the system for those of us juggling jobs, children and soiled nappies.

    Get the kid baptised, have a couple of drinks, and then forget about the whole god thing until the next kid arrives.

    It's not like you didn't know it was coming. 5 years isn't enough time to do something about it? Yeah, maybe I am more highly principled.


  • #28
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Malari wrote: »
    It's not like you didn't know it was coming. 5 years isn't enough time to do something about it? Yeah, maybe I am more highly principled.
    How did you handle it with your kids?

    MrP


  • #29
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    homeOwner wrote: »
    Principles on the one hand mean nothing in the face of getting a good education but on the other hand it means keeping a "lie" for 15 years while my children go through school and denying a principle that is integral to who I am and how much I just do not believe in any god at all.
    Once again, there's nothing to stop you requesting your child be excluded from RE once enrolled. Your child would then be in the same position as a hypothetical non-baptised child who happened to get through the system.

    So no ceremonial days out and no "maintenance of a lie" required. :)


  • #30
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Malari wrote: »
    I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.

    We all know that it is pretty shocking. You are preaching to the converted here, ironically on this forum :D .

    Before you get on your high horse and trot off to the moral highground many parents are not prepared to sacrifice their children's education in the present for the future good of other people's children. Thats basically what it comes down to, I'll be the first to admit that.

    The solution is not as simple as you have suggested. To put things into perspective, Educate Together has been running secular primary schools in Ireland since the 1980's, thats about 20 years. They have still, after all this time, not been given status by the department of education to run a secondary school (I just learned that today). After 20 years! Its a credit to them that they are still trying for reform.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    death1234567 wrote: »
    I'm now a super-duper atheist, so it all works out in the end.

    I propose we change Militant Atheist to Super-Duper Atheist.
    That'll attract the kids.


  • #32
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Look, I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time, but I'm commenting on the way it is and what I think needs to change to alter the balance of power the church has over education and government.

    My own parents baptised us for this reason. My mother teaches religion so she can work in this country. I think it's apalling.


  • #33
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    homeOwner wrote: »
    I have alot of thinking to do.

    Read the story of the "little red hen" to your child and if you expect them to follow it's example, then you should lead them by yours. Do not expect to wait and benefit from others to protest and change things when you are perfectly capable of doing so yourself now.

    Remember school will teach your child facts, but you will raise the person. Lies, deceit and acquiescence to unreasonable conditions are thankfully traits I did not learn from my parents.

    If there was an Educate Together School right beside the Catholic one where would you send your child? If distance and commute is the only variable that is affecting your decision to have the child baptized then accept you are doing this for yourself and not your childs education.

    Would it not be better to support Educate Together, which stands for a world you wish your child to grow up in, than supporting a draconian and discriminatory system instituted and still imposed by the Catholic Church?

    In the near future I plan to have a child myself, but I am already trying to make arrangements now to ensure they get an education outside of religious bias. In the society we live in there is NO excuse to baptize your child to give them an education.


  • #34
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    In the society we live in there is NO excuse to baptize your child to give them an education.
    In all fairness, until you've tried to get your kid a place in a primary school, then I'm not sure that you're in a position to say that.

    Here's something to do -- ring up all the schools within ten miles tomorrow, tell them you're a member of whatever religious sect controls the school's admissions policy and ask them if they will give preferential treatment to you.

    If a single school says they will prefer you, then there is every dumb, stupid and sad excuse in the world to lie to ensure your child's education.

    Simple as, really.


  • #35
    irishgandalf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭irishgandalf


    Dades wrote: »
    I would not do this for fear of "flagging" your child with the RC school principles. They might not look kindly on a 'spuriously' baptised child knowing you believe none of it and are in fact resentful of having to do it. If you think you may go down the water-splash route - keep under the radar.

    Dades i'd have to disagree with you there, both my parents are primary school teachers with over 30 years experiance each and neither are religious (at most "casually" religious) and from listening to the day to day goings on in the schools over the years (boy do i sound old, i'm only 23), through a varity of principles i'd have to say that it's my opinion that no principle would "flag" your kid as being non - religous and if they do it'd be discrimiation and you have the right to remove your kid from the school (i do hope it wouldn't have to do that).

    The only time i suspect the application of your child would be "judged" on religous grounds would be the board of management. After that it's plain sailing. You can use your personal meetings with the principle to judge his/her character.

    As for the lack of educate together secondary schools, myself and one of the mods on this site went to a community school that had (i've not been to the recently redeveloped building) crosses on the walls and a jesus statue displayed and that was the only reference to any paticular religion. The religous classes were quite infromative and we had guest speakers from an ex jahova's witness and harry chrisnas.

    In conclusion my advice boils down to meet with the principle and get a feel for the atmosphere and teaching staff. A principle maybe quoting the policy given by the board of management (which could very likely have a priest on it) for admittance, but not necessaraly his/her own policy for the day to day running of the school if you get my drift.


  • #36
    homeOwner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    If there was an Educate Together School right beside the Catholic one where would you send your child?
    Yes of course.
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    If distance and commute is the only variable that is affecting your decision to have the child baptized then accept you are doing this for yourself and not your childs education.
    They arent. ET school is usually over subscribed. Hopefully they will create new classes to accomodate the overflow if it keeps growing. I'll be applying anyway, but not holding out much hope. Its my first choice.
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Would it not be better to support Educate Together, which stands for a world you wish your child to grow up in, than supporting a draconian and discriminatory system instituted and still imposed by the Catholic Church?

    Definitely. If I am given the oppertunity to do so.
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    In the near future I plan to have a child myself, but I am already trying to make arrangements now to ensure they get an education outside of religious bias.

    And I wish you luck with that. But if you live in a high population area all your good intentions wont count for much when the reality of the situation is that its the local catholic national school or homeschooling as ET together school is full and no hope of any alternative.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Malari wrote: »
    Look, I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time, but I'm commenting on the way it is and what I think needs to change to alter the balance of power the church has over education and government.
    If the situation could be changed by something as simple as people voting with their feet, that would be great. Unfortunately, as we know, squeezing land, money and ultimately control from the church is too expensive an option for a country mired in recession. That's the way it's going to be for a long time.


  • #38
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Hmm, this thread is a shocking indictment of the current state of affairs in Ireland.

    I usually don't respond to threads like this as our path is perhaps a tad extreme but anyway...

    My wife and I decided we'd home school our daughter before she went near any school with even a hint of a religious ethos. We were lucky, we got her into a ET school locally. Granted, it adds upwards of 30 minutes to the commute but we got around that by finding a creche that does a "delivery" service for the kids. Fine, it costs me an arm and a leg each month, and then some, but it's what we wanted.

    Now here's the tricky bit. Secondary schooling. We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either. I'm heartened to hear you can "opt out" of these "modules", but we weren't sure about all this and have already signed her up for schools of our choice in another country. It may mean moving away when the time comes but that's our stance on it.

    I know our kids come first, but the more you guys bow to this crappy system, the longer it continues... Someone has to take a stand, and it has to start somewhere.
    Dades wrote: »
    If the situation could be changed by something as simple as people voting with their feet, that would be great. Unfortunately, as we know, squeezing land, money and ultimately control from the church is too expensive an option for a country mired in recession. That's the way it's going to be for a long time.

    And that is a total cop-out. The recession is not even a year old for petes sake!


  • #39
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Malari wrote: »
    I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.
    A wise man once said:"All it takes for Evil to persist is for good people to do nothing."

    I will do my utmost to avoid the RC baptism.


  • #40
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    irishgandalf wrote: »
    Dades i'd have to disagree with you there, both my parents are primary school teachers with over 30 years experiance each and neither are religious (at most "casually" religious) and from listening to the day to day goings on in the schools over the years (boy do i sound old, i'm only 23), through a varity of principles i'd have to say that it's my opinion that no principle would "flag" your kid as being non - religous and if they do it'd be discrimiation and you have the right to remove your kid from the school (i do hope it wouldn't have to do that).
    I take your point. I'm probably speaking from my own school experiences where the principals were always priests! Most principals are probably lay-people these days who maybe don't have the same leanings, so could probably be talked to on the level.

    That said, who makes the decisions on the final cuts? The principal or the "patron"? And don't forget the "patron" can legally discriminate because your child is not baptised.


  • #41
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Mena wrote: »
    Now here's the tricky bit. Secondary schooling. We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either. I'm heartened to hear you can "opt out" of these "modules", but we weren't sure about all this and have already signed her up for schools of our choice in another country. It may mean moving away when the time comes but that's our stance on it.
    In my own experience, Religion in secondary school was benign. By that stage everyone had copped it consisted of some serious fluff talk. Even the teachers knew this.

    I just don't want a RC school and then a big deal being made over communion. I also don't like the way many of them have a conservative ethos and don't want people who are not like them around them.

    I also think I'm doing my part my standing up to a tryanical organisation that raped and abused poor kids and never punished anyone for it even though they knew very well what was going on.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    irishgandalf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭irishgandalf


    Mena wrote: »
    Now here's the tricky bit. Secondary schooling. We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either. I'm heartened to hear you can "opt out" of these "modules", but we weren't sure about all this and have already signed her up for schools of our choice in another country. It may mean moving away when the time comes but that's our stance on it.

    may i ask how recently you've experianced the secoundary school education system? it was 4 years ago since i was in secoundary school and in my school there was nearly an educate together atmosphere (we didn't have catholic announchments over the intercom and the religious classes were very well balanced) and yes i did attend an educate together primary school.


  • #43
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    robindch wrote: »
    If a single school says they will prefer you, then there is every dumb, stupid and sad excuse in the world to lie to ensure your child's education.

    OK, I think there's a difference between interpretations. If it was a case of them asking you "are you catholic" and you saying "oh yes" then lying thereafter, no bother. But the baptism just keeps the official numbers up and gives the churches a reason to continue their hold over education, what with all these catholic children requiring a catholic education.


  • #44
    irishgandalf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭irishgandalf


    great minds think alike eh tim


  • #45
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mena wrote: »
    My wife and I decided we'd home school our daughter before she went near any school with even a hint of a religious ethos. [...] We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either.
    Just a sidenote on the word "ethos" -- it's a slimy, nasty word that is used principally (but not exclusively) to hide the fact of religious discrimination or religious indoctrination of varying degrees.

    Replace "ethos" with "control" for a slightly truer picture of what it means.

    BTW, is an "ethosser" somebody who rambles on about their own "ethos"?

    (with apologies to Dades for ranting about this again :))


  • #46
    Malari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I just don't want a RC school and then a big deal being made over communion. I also don't like the way many of them have a conservative ethos and don't want people who are not like them around them.

    I was just thinking about this, and I know in some schools they are trying to push the responsibility of religious education back on the parents, with little success. The parents who actually do want their kids to have communion and confirmation ceremonies would prefer to have the school do everything and just show up on the day, as opposed to attending meetings outside school and going to pre-ceremony services. This is another reason why the church stays in the school.


  • #47
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    irishgandalf wrote: »
    In conclusion my advice boils down to meet with the principle and get a feel for the atmosphere and teaching staff.

    +1
    robindch wrote: »
    In all fairness, until you've tried to get your kid a place in a primary school, then I'm not sure that you're in a position to say that.

    I really, and I mean really, am going to try and not say things like that when I am a parent, things like "you can't know" or "you're in no position"... etc. It is so trite and clichéd. Having a child does not make you privy to some advanced manual on life.

    As a parent would you not have plenty of time to move or make plans to ensure your child will equally get an education as well as not having to compromise the example you are setting for them? I will move country if it means securing a life and education that I wish for my child, and in fact have wheels in motion to do so.

    The issue here isn't that your hands are tied or you had no time so you HAVE to get your child baptized, the issue is that you never viewed it as a problem. What's a few lies and deceit to a clergy man and people who will be teaching my child, eh? It's an insult to them (regardless of my views on religion) and an insult to an example you are supposed to be setting your child.
    robindch wrote: »
    If a single school says they will prefer you, then there is every dumb, stupid and sad excuse in the world to lie to ensure your child's education.

    Would it matter to you though if none of them did? I think the Atheists here saying to baptize their child are looking for the easiest solution that requires the least trouble for themselves, regardless if you found no evidence of discrimination in the schools in your area you'd baptize your child to hedge your bets.


  • #48
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    irishgandalf wrote: »
    may i ask how recently you've experianced the secoundary school education system? it was 4 years ago since i was in secoundary school and in my school there was nearly an educate together atmosphere (we didn't have catholic announchments over the intercom and the religious classes were very well balanced) and yes i did attend an educate together primary school.

    I've never experienced the schooling system first hand in Ireland. However, our stance would remain the same in any country.


  • #49
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    I think the Atheists here saying to baptize their child are looking for the easiest solution that requires the least trouble for themselves, regardless if you found no evidence of discrimination in the schools in your area you'd baptize your child to hedge your bets.
    Atheists just don't believe in gods. They're not all out to change the world, particularly at the expense of family life. :)
    robindch wrote: »
    BTW, is an "ethosser" somebody who rambles on about their own "ethos"?

    (with apologies to Dades for ranting about this again :))
    It's been a while since we had an 'ethos' rant! Wonderful word, so many uses!


  • #50
    irishgandalf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭irishgandalf


    Mena wrote: »
    I've never experienced the schooling system first hand in Ireland. However, our stance would remain the same in any country.

    So your willing to dismiss our education system and fly off to another country because you've heard that our secoundary schools are religious?


  • #51
    mehfesto2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭mehfesto2


    I never thought this was a real problem.
    We had two guys in our school who were Morman and they just read a bible during religious class. The two (possibly) three lads who were no way religious were sent to the library and had to read classics.

    I cant imagine any school would uphod this - sure there's no priests teaching anymore.

    Or am I just narrow minded?


  • Advertisement
Advertisement