Primary schools - help!

Malari

Look, I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time, but I'm commenting on the way it is and what I think needs to change to alter the balance of power the church has over education and government.

My own parents baptised us for this reason. My mother teaches religion so she can work in this country. I think it's apalling.

Goduznt Xzst

homeOwner wrote: »

I have alot of thinking to do.

Read the story of the "little red hen" to your child and if you expect them to follow it's example, then you should lead them by yours. Do not expect to wait and benefit from others to protest and change things when you are perfectly capable of doing so yourself now.

Remember school will teach your child facts, but you will raise the person. Lies, deceit and acquiescence to unreasonable conditions are thankfully traits I did not learn from my parents.

If there was an Educate Together School right beside the Catholic one where would you send your child? If distance and commute is the only variable that is affecting your decision to have the child baptized then accept you are doing this for yourself and not your childs education.

Would it not be better to support Educate Together, which stands for a world you wish your child to grow up in, than supporting a draconian and discriminatory system instituted and still imposed by the Catholic Church?

In the near future I plan to have a child myself, but I am already trying to make arrangements now to ensure they get an education outside of religious bias. In the society we live in there is NO excuse to baptize your child to give them an education.

robindch

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

In the society we live in there is NO excuse to baptize your child to give them an education.

In all fairness, until you've tried to get your kid a place in a primary school, then I'm not sure that you're in a position to say that.

Here's something to do -- ring up all the schools within ten miles tomorrow, tell them you're a member of whatever religious sect controls the school's admissions policy and ask them if they will give preferential treatment to you.

If a single school says they will prefer you, then there is every dumb, stupid and sad excuse in the world to lie to ensure your child's education.

Simple as, really.

irishgandalf

Dades wrote: »

I would not do this for fear of "flagging" your child with the RC school principles. They might not look kindly on a 'spuriously' baptised child knowing you believe none of it and are in fact resentful of having to do it. If you think you may go down the water-splash route - keep under the radar.

Dades i'd have to disagree with you there, both my parents are primary school teachers with over 30 years experiance each and neither are religious (at most "casually" religious) and from listening to the day to day goings on in the schools over the years (boy do i sound old, i'm only 23), through a varity of principles i'd have to say that it's my opinion that no principle would "flag" your kid as being non - religous and if they do it'd be discrimiation and you have the right to remove your kid from the school (i do hope it wouldn't have to do that).

The only time i suspect the application of your child would be "judged" on religous grounds would be the board of management. After that it's plain sailing. You can use your personal meetings with the principle to judge his/her character.

As for the lack of educate together secondary schools, myself and one of the mods on this site went to a community school that had (i've not been to the recently redeveloped building) crosses on the walls and a jesus statue displayed and that was the only reference to any paticular religion. The religous classes were quite infromative and we had guest speakers from an ex jahova's witness and harry chrisnas.

In conclusion my advice boils down to meet with the principle and get a feel for the atmosphere and teaching staff. A principle maybe quoting the policy given by the board of management (which could very likely have a priest on it) for admittance, but not necessaraly his/her own policy for the day to day running of the school if you get my drift.

homeOwner

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If there was an Educate Together School right beside the Catholic one where would you send your child?

Yes of course.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If distance and commute is the only variable that is affecting your decision to have the child baptized then accept you are doing this for yourself and not your childs education.

They arent. ET school is usually over subscribed. Hopefully they will create new classes to accomodate the overflow if it keeps growing. I'll be applying anyway, but not holding out much hope. Its my first choice.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Would it not be better to support Educate Together, which stands for a world you wish your child to grow up in, than supporting a draconian and discriminatory system instituted and still imposed by the Catholic Church?

Definitely. If I am given the oppertunity to do so.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

In the near future I plan to have a child myself, but I am already trying to make arrangements now to ensure they get an education outside of religious bias.

And I wish you luck with that. But if you live in a high population area all your good intentions wont count for much when the reality of the situation is that its the local catholic national school or homeschooling as ET together school is full and no hope of any alternative.

Dades

Malari wrote: »

Look, I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time, but I'm commenting on the way it is and what I think needs to change to alter the balance of power the church has over education and government.

If the situation could be changed by something as simple as people voting with their feet, that would be great. Unfortunately, as we know, squeezing land, money and ultimately control from the church is too expensive an option for a country mired in recession. That's the way it's going to be for a long time.

Mena

Hmm, this thread is a shocking indictment of the current state of affairs in Ireland.

I usually don't respond to threads like this as our path is perhaps a tad extreme but anyway...

My wife and I decided we'd home school our daughter before she went near any school with even a hint of a religious ethos. We were lucky, we got her into a ET school locally. Granted, it adds upwards of 30 minutes to the commute but we got around that by finding a creche that does a "delivery" service for the kids. Fine, it costs me an arm and a leg each month, and then some, but it's what we wanted.

Now here's the tricky bit. Secondary schooling. We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either. I'm heartened to hear you can "opt out" of these "modules", but we weren't sure about all this and have already signed her up for schools of our choice in another country. It may mean moving away when the time comes but that's our stance on it.

I know our kids come first, but the more you guys bow to this crappy system, the longer it continues... Someone has to take a stand, and it has to start somewhere.

Dades wrote: »

If the situation could be changed by something as simple as people voting with their feet, that would be great. Unfortunately, as we know, squeezing land, money and ultimately control from the church is too expensive an option for a country mired in recession. That's the way it's going to be for a long time.

And that is a total cop-out. The recession is not even a year old for petes sake!

Tim Robbins

Malari wrote: »

I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.

A wise man once said:"All it takes for Evil to persist is for good people to do nothing."

I will do my utmost to avoid the RC baptism.

Dades

irishgandalf wrote: »

Dades i'd have to disagree with you there, both my parents are primary school teachers with over 30 years experiance each and neither are religious (at most "casually" religious) and from listening to the day to day goings on in the schools over the years (boy do i sound old, i'm only 23), through a varity of principles i'd have to say that it's my opinion that no principle would "flag" your kid as being non - religous and if they do it'd be discrimiation and you have the right to remove your kid from the school (i do hope it wouldn't have to do that).

I take your point. I'm probably speaking from my own school experiences where the principals were always priests! Most principals are probably lay-people these days who maybe don't have the same leanings, so could probably be talked to on the level.

That said, who makes the decisions on the final cuts? The principal or the "patron"? And don't forget the "patron" can legally discriminate because your child is not baptised.

Tim Robbins

Mena wrote: »

Now here's the tricky bit. Secondary schooling. We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either. I'm heartened to hear you can "opt out" of these "modules", but we weren't sure about all this and have already signed her up for schools of our choice in another country. It may mean moving away when the time comes but that's our stance on it.

In my own experience, Religion in secondary school was benign. By that stage everyone had copped it consisted of some serious fluff talk. Even the teachers knew this.

I just don't want a RC school and then a big deal being made over communion. I also don't like the way many of them have a conservative ethos and don't want people who are not like them around them.

I also think I'm doing my part my standing up to a tryanical organisation that raped and abused poor kids and never punished anyone for it even though they knew very well what was going on.

irishgandalf

Mena wrote: »

Now here's the tricky bit. Secondary schooling. We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either. I'm heartened to hear you can "opt out" of these "modules", but we weren't sure about all this and have already signed her up for schools of our choice in another country. It may mean moving away when the time comes but that's our stance on it.

may i ask how recently you've experianced the secoundary school education system? it was 4 years ago since i was in secoundary school and in my school there was nearly an educate together atmosphere (we didn't have catholic announchments over the intercom and the religious classes were very well balanced) and yes i did attend an educate together primary school.

Malari

robindch wrote: »

If a single school says they will prefer you, then there is every dumb, stupid and sad excuse in the world to lie to ensure your child's education.

OK, I think there's a difference between interpretations. If it was a case of them asking you "are you catholic" and you saying "oh yes" then lying thereafter, no bother. But the baptism just keeps the official numbers up and gives the churches a reason to continue their hold over education, what with all these catholic children requiring a catholic education.

irishgandalf

great minds think alike eh tim

robindch

Mena wrote: »

My wife and I decided we'd home school our daughter before she went near any school with even a hint of a religious ethos. [...] We're not prepared to send her to a secondary school with a religious ethos either.

Just a sidenote on the word "ethos" -- it's a slimy, nasty word that is used principally (but not exclusively) to hide the fact of religious discrimination or religious indoctrination of varying degrees.

Replace "ethos" with "control" for a slightly truer picture of what it means.

BTW, is an "ethosser" somebody who rambles on about their own "ethos"?

(with apologies to Dades for ranting about this again )

Malari

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I just don't want a RC school and then a big deal being made over communion. I also don't like the way many of them have a conservative ethos and don't want people who are not like them around them.

I was just thinking about this, and I know in some schools they are trying to push the responsibility of religious education back on the parents, with little success. The parents who actually do want their kids to have communion and confirmation ceremonies would prefer to have the school do everything and just show up on the day, as opposed to attending meetings outside school and going to pre-ceremony services. This is another reason why the church stays in the school.

Goduznt Xzst

irishgandalf wrote: »

In conclusion my advice boils down to meet with the principle and get a feel for the atmosphere and teaching staff.

+1

robindch wrote: »

In all fairness, until you've tried to get your kid a place in a primary school, then I'm not sure that you're in a position to say that.

I really, and I mean really, am going to try and not say things like that when I am a parent, things like "you can't know" or "you're in no position"... etc. It is so trite and clichéd. Having a child does not make you privy to some advanced manual on life.

As a parent would you not have plenty of time to move or make plans to ensure your child will equally get an education as well as not having to compromise the example you are setting for them? I will move country if it means securing a life and education that I wish for my child, and in fact have wheels in motion to do so.

The issue here isn't that your hands are tied or you had no time so you HAVE to get your child baptized, the issue is that you never viewed it as a problem. What's a few lies and deceit to a clergy man and people who will be teaching my child, eh? It's an insult to them (regardless of my views on religion) and an insult to an example you are supposed to be setting your child.

robindch wrote: »

If a single school says they will prefer you, then there is every dumb, stupid and sad excuse in the world to lie to ensure your child's education.

Would it matter to you though if none of them did? I think the Atheists here saying to baptize their child are looking for the easiest solution that requires the least trouble for themselves, regardless if you found no evidence of discrimination in the schools in your area you'd baptize your child to hedge your bets.

Mena

irishgandalf wrote: »

may i ask how recently you've experianced the secoundary school education system? it was 4 years ago since i was in secoundary school and in my school there was nearly an educate together atmosphere (we didn't have catholic announchments over the intercom and the religious classes were very well balanced) and yes i did attend an educate together primary school.

I've never experienced the schooling system first hand in Ireland. However, our stance would remain the same in any country.

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I think the Atheists here saying to baptize their child are looking for the easiest solution that requires the least trouble for themselves, regardless if you found no evidence of discrimination in the schools in your area you'd baptize your child to hedge your bets.

Atheists just don't believe in gods. They're not all out to change the world, particularly at the expense of family life.

robindch wrote: »

BTW, is an "ethosser" somebody who rambles on about their own "ethos"?

(with apologies to Dades for ranting about this again )

It's been a while since we had an 'ethos' rant! Wonderful word, so many uses!

irishgandalf

Mena wrote: »

I've never experienced the schooling system first hand in Ireland. However, our stance would remain the same in any country.

So your willing to dismiss our education system and fly off to another country because you've heard that our secoundary schools are religious?

mehfesto2

I never thought this was a real problem.
We had two guys in our school who were Morman and they just read a bible during religious class. The two (possibly) three lads who were no way religious were sent to the library and had to read classics.

I cant imagine any school would uphod this - sure there's no priests teaching anymore.

Or am I just narrow minded?

dvpower

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

As a parent would you not have plenty of time to move or make plans to ensure your child will equally get an education as well as not having to compromise the example you are setting for them? I will move country if it means securing a life and education that I wish for my child, and in fact have wheels in motion to do
so.

I think you've got to consider what's best for the child. Moving from the place that you live, possibly away from the child's extended family and your own support circle to avoid what is perhaps a minor hypocrisy seems like overkill to me.

Life is full of these compromises. I've found that, since having a couple of kids, I've got quite good at them.

Mena

irishgandalf wrote: »

So your willing to dismiss our education system and fly off to another country because you've heard that our secoundary schools are religious?

There's a lot more to it than that, you're really oversimplifying a complex issue.

Tim Robbins

Malari wrote: »

I was just thinking about this, and I know in some schools they are trying to push the responsibility of religious education back on the parents, with little success. The parents who actually do want their kids to have communion and confirmation ceremonies would prefer to have the school do everything and just show up on the day, as opposed to attending meetings outside school and going to pre-ceremony services. This is another reason why the church stays in the school.

I just think its one big cringe fest. I actually wouldn't have as much of a problem going through the actual Gospels or scriptures.

I would prefer the Protestant "ethos" at the moment.

pH

Have you considered a letter to your local TDs to get their take on the issue?

The state have a responsibility to provide your child with a primary school education, your child *will* eventually get a school place at a local and reasonably convenient school.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

Atheists just don't believe in gods. They're not all out to change the world, particularly at the expense of family life.

Expense of family life? BS tbh. You know full well you could plan to give your child a secular education and also that your child will get into some school in your area regardless of if you baptize them or not. It's a cop out.

But you're right Atheists are under no obligation to take a stand against injustices they see right in front of their eyes. Proving to be a liar and deceitful in front of your child, family and friends is a much better solution.

dvpower wrote: »

I think you've got to consider what's best for the child. Moving from the place that you live, possibly away from the child's extended family and your own support circle to avoid what is perhaps a minor hypocrisy seems like overkill to me.

What? Plenty of people move from where they live. In fact, most of the people I know that have had children recently have moved a further distance from their extended family, so as to reduce the number of family visits during the week when they are busy. Regardless, it's all excuses. You don't have to move far from your family to get your child an education and also not baptize them. Personally for me it's a number of other factors also, including living conditions, healthcare, education, standard of life... etc. The whole "family support circle" thing sounds like something from 80's Ireland.

Can I ask, of the people that are Atheist and would/have baptized their child where you yourself baptized as a child?

Mena

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

What? Plenty of people move from where they live. In fact, most of the people I know that have had children recently have moved a further distance from their extended family, so as to reduce the number of family visits during the week when they are busy.

In our case our extended family is already 15000Km's away, but if I could have it any different I would... why? Free child care FTW!

However I do realise my own situation is unique and as such I can very well understand where most of the others are coming from, but that unique situation I am in allows me to stand by my principles without having to sacrifice all that much. I do wonder, if it were different, would I be as hard-headed? I'd like to think so.

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Expense of family life? BS tbh. You know full well you could plan to give your child a secular education and also that your child will get into some school in your area regardless of if you baptize them or not. It's a cop out.

You know nothing about any of our family situations, not to mention your own future situation, and what relocating or compromising might entail.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

But you're right Atheists are under no obligation to take a stand against injustices they see right in front of their eyes. Proving to be a liar and deceitful in front of your child, family and friends is a much better solution.

But by all means enjoy your idealism while it lasts, and give me a shout when you need help getting off that horse of yours.

Rev Hellfire

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Can I ask, of the people that are Atheist and would/have baptized their child where you yourself baptized as a child?

What a pointless question. Almost everyone who posts here is Irish and would have grown up in what was a catholic society, lets say 25-45 years ago. You already know the answer to you're leading question so why ask it ?

Yes its great that you grew up in an unconventional family, but it doesn't somehow make you a better atheist than the rest here.
Actually if anything it could be claimed you've never had to make stance having been indoctrinated into it in the first place.

CerebralCortex

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

What a pointless question. Almost everyone who posts here is Irish and would have grown up in what was a catholic society, lets say 25-45 years ago. You already know the answer to you're leading question so why ask it ?

Yes its great that you grew up in an unconventional family, but it doesn't somehow make you a better atheist than the rest here.
Actually if anything it could be claimed you've never had to make stance having been indoctrinated into it in the first place.

Goduznt Xzst I thought you did grow up in a religious familly or at least were religious at one point?

Rev Hellfire

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Goduznt Xzst I thought you did grow up in a religious familly or at least were religious at one point?

By non-conventional I mean this statement:

On a personal note, I've never known my father or mother to lie, they took a chance and applied for a very Catholic school and told the principle they where not Catholic. I got in, but today my parents consistent honesty has had a greater effect on me personally than anything I learnt in that school.

The simple fact is the majority of people who have kids here will have been baptised (catholic) simply by virtue of the nature of the country all those years ago. I need only remind people of the hoohaa which surrounded the previous popes visit to get an idea of the mindset of the nation back then.

For people in long long ago like old man robin it could only have been worse.