Primary schools - help!

homeOwner

From what I have gathered the order of enrollment for catholic primary schools (which make up 92% of all primary schools in the country according to Newstalk yesterday) is as follows:
1. Catholic Children in the parish
2. Catholic children outside the parish
3. Other christians faiths
4. Anyone else.

I do not wish to christian my kids but I am coming around to the opinion that I will have to just so that my children get into a school at all. The nearest Educate Together school is about 7 miles away (in morning traffic it would take about an hour to get there from my house, not ideal but not a problem) I would love to send them there but they have a waiting list so long it basically means I dont stand a chance.

My local primary schools (there are a few of them) also have waiting lists and I have discretly enquired and have been told my child would be at the bottom of the list for a place. I pay my taxes too just like everyone else. I am not bashing religious schools. I just want an alternative for my children.

What are my options? Anyone been through this? Being raised by the nuns myself I am not against religion per se (even though I have rejected it as an adult) but I really do not want to go through the whole christening thing and say those words that I do not believe. My other half feels the same way and was never raised catholic. I want to quietly live as an athiest and be allowed to do that without jepordising my kids chances in life (a sad fact in Ireland but the reality)

Any advise really appreciated.

Dades

Was a big thread about it last year, here.

My own opinion is if you are not overtly anti-theist, would be to suck it up, and do the baptism thing. It only takes half an hour - compare that to an hour in traffic every day for years.

It doesn't make the system right, but at least you get less of a humping from it.

robindch

My own sister got her kid baptized a few weeks back to avoid being discriminated against by her local catholic school.

If you've no irreligious schools in your area (eg, Educate Together) then my recommendation is that you bite your tongue, go through with the ceremony, get the bit of paper you need, and proceed as though nothing had happened. I believe you can request that your kid be excused from religion "classes" later.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

My own opinion is if you are not overtly anti-theist, would be to suck it up, and do the baptism thing.

Astounding That's a great life lesson right there: "Son, tell whatever lies you want to religious people if it means you have to commute less in a day"

You don't have to be anti-theist to realize how malleable a childs mind is and how much power teachers are given.

OP, schools in your area might be Catholic (i.e. have "St." in the name and/or a church in the grounds) but I don't think it is a requirement with all of them that your child be baptized, or even Catholic. I was not Catholic when I went to a Catholic Primary School and my parents simply asked that I be exempt from religious class, which I was allowed.

MrPudding

It is possible to be an atheist and a realist at the same time.

MrP

homeOwner

Dont the parents have to make some sort of declaration during baptism to bring up the children as catholics or can I defer that part to the godparents? I dont mind saying the mumbo, jumbo about satan and all his works and empty promises etc..... but promising to bring them up catholic when I would never bring them to church or expect them to say prayers is going to be hard.

I could suck it up and "win a Tony award at the altar " as you so eloquently put it yourself but I would feel hipocritical and the rest of my family (some are pretty stauchly religious) would not let me forget just how much of a hipocrate I am and all things being equal I would rather not do that.

Having read the other tread (thanks for the link) I am beginning to think that its my only choice. It truely makes me sad and disollusioned about this country.

What do other people do? Is Educate Together my only option? Do they have secondary schools?

death1234567

MrPudding wrote: »

It is possible to be an atheist and a realist at the same time.

In this country the two go hand in hand. The refusal to reform state schooling in this country is mind boggling, I guess the masses still want their little johnny to get a nice suit and have first communion in the schools without actually having to do anything themselves. Get the kid baptised, once he/she has their first day of school burn it.

homeOwner

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

OP, schools in your area might be Catholic (i.e. have "St." in the name and/or a church in the grounds) but I don't think it is a requirement with all of them that your child be baptized, or even Catholic. I was not Catholic when I went to a Catholic Primary School and my parents simply asked that I be exempt from religious class, which I was allowed.

The ones in my local area (within a 10 miles radius) have all quoted the above order of enrollment to me, putting my children firmly at the bottom. They never say its a requirement, but in an area that has too many applications for school, it becomes the only requirement.

I didnt approach other schools in the area (there are a few church of ireland schools but I dont know what their criteria are, I will check them out)

Goduznt Xzst

homeOwner wrote: »

What do other people do? Is Educate Together my only option? Do they have secondary schools?

Best advice would be to meet with the Principles of the schools in your area and voice your questions to them. Tell them you do not want to have your child baptized but would like your child to attend their school. My parents did the same thing and the principle was agreeable.

It would be better to exhaust all options and avenues first before proceeding with a spurious baptism.

homeOwner

death1234567 wrote: »

In this country the two go hand in hand. The refusal to reform state schooling in this country is mind boggling, I guess the masses still want their little johnny to get a nice suit and have first communion in the schools without actually having to do anything themselves. Get the kid baptised, once he/she has their first day of school burn it.

I probably will end up doing just that. The worry doesnt end there, then its communion, confirmation....how have your kids coped with being the "outsiders" in school not joining in? Is it becoming more normal now for parents to have their kids opt out. I just want my kids to not be sinlged out for being "different" and try to give them a good start.

In normal everyday life I wouldnt dream of pretending to be something just to fit in. I am totally the opposite, well able to stand up for my opinions but when it comes to children.......its very difficult.

robindch

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I don't think it is a requirement with all of them that your child be baptized, or even Catholic. I was not Catholic when I went to a Catholic Primary School and my parents simply asked that I be exempt from religious class, which I was allowed.

The issue isn't whether non-catholics are allowed in, but where they are put on the queue.

Catholic-controlled schools are permitted -- and certainly do -- actively push non-catholics down the queue to make way for catholics who apply for a place after them. Given the pressure on primary schools in this country, this does lead to ghettoization, for example, in the infamous case of Diswellstown a couple of years back.

It is preposterously discriminatory and in such circumstances, I think that one has a unfortunate duty to put the education of your kid ahead of any scruples that one has about two minutes of dishonesty when the kid's too young to know the difference. Or in summary, if the church wasn't dishonest enough to do this, they wouldn't invite reciprocal dishonesty.

homeOwner

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Best advice would be to meet with the Principles of the schools in your area and voice your questions to them. Tell them you do not want to have your child baptized but would like your child to attend their school. My parents did the same thing and the principle was agreeable. .

Not sure if I am being clear. The principals are totally happy for me to have my children apply. They have no issue with my kids not being baptised. They are really welcoming.

However, their enrollment policy puts my kids behind all the other kids in the parish. The reality is I have not got a snowballs change in hell of my kids actually getting into the school due to the numbers of kids that live in my locality.

homeOwner

robindch wrote: »

in such circumstances, I think that one has a unfortunate duty to put the education of your kid ahead of any scruples that one has about two minutes of dishonesty when the kid's too young to know the difference. Or in summary, if the church wasn't dishonest enough to do this, they wouldn't invite reciprocal dishonesty.

I was about to type "god bless you" :eek: as a throw back to my catholic upbringing but you get the sentiment!

In fact I think I am going to steal that quote from you above if ever challanged by my siblings for being so hipocritical as to get my kids baptised.

Thank you for those words.:)

death1234567

homeOwner wrote: »

I probably will end up doing just that. The worry doesnt end there, then its communion, confirmation....how have your kids coped with being the "outsiders" in school not joining in? Is it becoming more normal now for parents to have their kids opt out. I just want my kids to not be sinlged out for being "different" and try to give them a good start.

If its any consilation, I was in a catholic school, I was baptised, I had first communion, Confirmation and was dragged to mass on a weekly basis for 16 odd years. I'm now a super-duper atheist, so it all works out in the end.

I have no kids of my own so I can't comment about how many opt out nowadays.

Goduznt Xzst

homeOwner wrote: »

how have your kids coped with being the "outsiders" in school not joining in?

I opted out for communion and religious class and I was never treated differently by the kids in my class. Thankfully I think, at 5 years old most children haven't learnt to discriminate yet against people who don't dress up and sit in a big building with a cross on top of it. Also note that this was 20 years ago in a small Catholic town in Ireland, I'd say it's even more unlikely now that your child would be ostracized, considering how diverse a lot of Ireland has become.

robindch wrote: »

I think that one has a unfortunate duty to put the education of your kid ahead of any scruples that one has about two minutes of dishonesty when the kid's too young to know the difference.

Personally I'd also put commuting time ahead of two minutes of dishonesty, but that's me. I do not think securing a good education for my child and holding onto my principles are mutually exclusive. Lying is not the only option available here.

homeOwner wrote: »

They never say its a requirement, but in an area that has too many applications for school, it becomes the only requirement.

Can I ask how you know the application numbers for the schools in your area? Like I said, I'd meet with the Principles in your area personally and be frank about asking them what they think your chances are of getting you child into the school if they are not Catholic.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote: »

My own sister got her kid baptized a few weeks back to avoid being discriminated against by her local catholic school.

If you've no irreligious schools in your area (eg, Educate Together) then my recommendation is that you bite your tongue, go through with the ceremony, get the bit of paper you need, and proceed as though nothing had happened. I believe you can request that your kid be excused from religion "classes" later.

I change my opinion on this every time I think about it. After the publication of the Ryan report, last week, I would consider it immoral to support a quazi-nazi instituition in any way at all.

On the other hand, I'd also be worried about my children mixing with munster fans, especially the ones whose parents think it's ok to wear a munster jersey at a final they weren't even playing at. Inevitabley this will happen and I'll have to grin and bear.

So either way I suspect they will be some challenging times when Tim Robbins Junior / Junior-ette, arrives in November later this year.

homeOwner

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Can I ask how you know the application numbers for the schools in your area?

From friends in the area who have kids older than mine and the schools themselves tell me that they frequently receive more applications than they have places, hence their explaination of the order of enrollment.

I assume enrollment numbers differ year to year and maybe I'll get lucky when mine are ready to go but I dont want to have to rely on luck.

Tim Robbins

homeOwner wrote: »

From friends in the area who have kids older than mine and the schools themselves tell me that they frequently receive more applications than they have places, hence their explaination of the order of enrollment.

I assume enrollment numbers differ year to year and maybe I'll get lucky when mine are ready to go but I dont want to have to rely on luck.

Most parents put their kids down for about four schools and then just pick one.

homeOwner

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Most parents put their kids down for about four schools and then just pick one.

Great! so they'll be bottom of the list in 4 schools

Well I cant just pick one - the school will pick me

Is there any good news out there at all regarding this? Are there any moves to change the ethos of national schools? Is there any possibility that the religious will sign over schools to the state in the forseeable future? I am thoroughly depressed about it.

Tim Robbins

homeOwner wrote: »

Is there any good news out there at all regarding this? Are there any moves to change the ethos of national schools? Is there any possibility that the religious will sign over schools to the state in the forseeable future? I am thoroughly depressed about it.

There are two organisations who are trying to change things:
1.
The Humanist Association of Ireland
2.
Educate Together

Unfortunately neither have much public support. If they did they'd be able to put pressure on the government in the same way as Teacher's Unions do.

Goduznt Xzst

homeOwner wrote: »

Is there any good news out there at all regarding this? Are there any moves to change the ethos of national schools? Is there any possibility that the religious will sign over schools to the state in the forseeable future? I am thoroughly depressed about it.

See this is the problem. View this thread as a microcosm of the state of secular Ireland atm. Sure we all don't like the school system, but the majority of advice you are getting here is apathetic and telling you to take the easiest option for yourself and your child.

Apply early to every prospective school in your area and meet personally with the Principles to voice your concerns about discrimination. Meet with the people at "Educate Together" and see if they have any information for you regarding your area.

If every Atheist and Secularist caves like is being recommended to you in this thread then your child will grow up and have to also lie to get his child into school.

On a personal note, I've never known my father or mother to lie, they took a chance and applied for a very Catholic school and told the principle they where not Catholic. I got in, but today my parents consistent honesty has had a greater effect on me personally than anything I learnt in that school.

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I opted out for communion and religious class and I was never treated differently by the kids in my class. ... I'd say it's even more unlikely now that your child would be ostracized, considering how diverse a lot of Ireland has become.

I'd agree with this and it is important. If baptising a child meant having to go through every catholic ceremony while they were in the school it would be different. As mentioned, however, you can opt your child out as soon as they are accepted, without too much fear of discrimination.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Personally I'd also put commuting time ahead of two minutes of dishonesty, but that's me. I do not think securing a good education for my child and holding onto my principles are mutually exclusive. Lying is not the only option available here.

Do you really have scruples about lying to (a) a deity you don't believe exists, or (b) a member of clergy? Also, I take it you have no kids and get more than an hour's freetime to live your life everyday.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Like I said, I'd meet with the Principles in your area personally and be frank about asking them what they think your chances are of getting you child into the school if they are not Catholic.

I would not do this for fear of "flagging" your child with the RC school principles. They might not look kindly on a 'spuriously' baptised child knowing you believe none of it and are in fact resentful of having to do it. If you think you may go down the water-splash route - keep under the radar.

Coriolanus

I'm of two minds but at the end of the day, your childs education is the important thing here not your principles.

While there's a lot of talk right now about debaptisms and Defection by Formal Act, that's always something your child can take upon themselves when older.
I presume since your posting this here, you'll be bringing your child up in a humanist tradition at home. As was on the radio this morning, a child spends 15% of it's time from 5-18 in school, they'll spend a lot more time with you.

As Dades says, I'd keep quiet and just get the child baptised.

homeOwner

Dades wrote: »

I would not do this for fear of "flagging" your child with the RC school principles. They might not look kindly on a 'spuriously' baptised child knowing you believe none of it and are in fact resentful of having to do it. If you think you may go down the water-splash route - keep under the radar.

If I go down this route I would tend to agree with you and keep quiet. Once you start down it there's no point in taking it all back.

Nevore wrote: »

I'm of two minds but at the end of the day, your childs education is the important thing here not your principles.

I wish I had the where-withall to "change the system" but I am not one of those people. Hopefully someone more eloquent, more intelligent, more "something" than I will be the catalyst to achieve proper secular schooling in Ireland but I will probably take the easy route and keep quiet.

Maybe the problem is that I know they will probably get a great education, so I really dont have any incentive to NEED change. Principles on the one hand mean nothing in the face of getting a good education but on the other hand it means keeping a "lie" for 15 years while my children go through school and denying a principle that is integral to who I am and how much I just do not believe in any god at all.

I have alot of thinking to do.

Malari

I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.

Rev Hellfire

Malari wrote: »

I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.

Meanwhile back in the real world people are rightly attempting to secure a decent education for their children in the here and now. I'm going to leave it to the highly principled childless individuals to change the system for those of us juggling jobs, children and soiled nappies.

Get the kid baptised, have a couple of drinks, and then forget about the whole god thing until the next kid arrives.

Malari

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Meanwhile back in the real world people are rightly attempting to secure a decent education for their children in the here and now. I'm going to leave it to the highly principled childless individuals to change the system for those of us juggling jobs, children and soiled nappies.

Get the kid baptised, have a couple of drinks, and then forget about the whole god thing until the next kid arrives.

It's not like you didn't know it was coming. 5 years isn't enough time to do something about it? Yeah, maybe I am more highly principled.

MrPudding

Malari wrote: »

It's not like you didn't know it was coming. 5 years isn't enough time to do something about it? Yeah, maybe I am more highly principled.

How did you handle it with your kids?

MrP

Dades

homeOwner wrote: »

Principles on the one hand mean nothing in the face of getting a good education but on the other hand it means keeping a "lie" for 15 years while my children go through school and denying a principle that is integral to who I am and how much I just do not believe in any god at all.

Once again, there's nothing to stop you requesting your child be excluded from RE once enrolled. Your child would then be in the same position as a hypothetical non-baptised child who happened to get through the system.

So no ceremonial days out and no "maintenance of a lie" required.

homeOwner

Malari wrote: »

I think it's pretty shocking that you have to pretend to be catholic to get your kid into a state school. It's open discrimination and goes hand-in-hand with the mealy-mouthed crap that's going on about the Ryan Report. People need to stop getting their kids baptised for this reason and the schools will be forced to let them in anyway. They want the numbers to keep the teachers and resources they currently have. It's the same for teachers - you won't get a job in most schools unless you are prepared to "teach" religion.

We all know that it is pretty shocking. You are preaching to the converted here, ironically on this forum .

Before you get on your high horse and trot off to the moral highground many parents are not prepared to sacrifice their children's education in the present for the future good of other people's children. Thats basically what it comes down to, I'll be the first to admit that.

The solution is not as simple as you have suggested. To put things into perspective, Educate Together has been running secular primary schools in Ireland since the 1980's, thats about 20 years. They have still, after all this time, not been given status by the department of education to run a secondary school (I just learned that today). After 20 years! Its a credit to them that they are still trying for reform.

Genghiz Cohen

death1234567 wrote: »

I'm now a super-duper atheist, so it all works out in the end.

I propose we change Militant Atheist to Super-Duper Atheist.
That'll attract the kids.