Westside for confused bastards

DM-BM · 08-05-2009 01:27PM

Kevpants, what sort of programs and how long were you training, before you started Westside last may?

Vegeta · 08-05-2009 02:03PM

kevpants wrote: »

Structure & Cycles

With Westside you will be doing a lot of work above 90% as I mentioned. What this means is you will be in danger of burning out, plateauing and subsequently getting weaker. To avert this we change the ME exercise of choice around every 3 weeks. Advanced people can change every 1 or 2 but I don't get why. It won't be an issue if you are starting off anyway. 3 weeks it is.

So for upper day you might pick a cycle of 3 exercises like bench for 3 weeks, Incline bench for 3 weeks and floor press for 3 weeks and repeat. I think picking 3 is sufficient, I'd get a bit pissed off if I had to wait 2 months before my next bench cycle because I chose too many upper body exercises. For lower body you should just alternate between ME squats and ME deadlifts, and no arguments. Anyone who has recommended a beginner do max effort Good Mornings or something is a class A moron. Stick with these two, you'll feel rested and fired up after your 3 week break from each and the PR's will flow.

Hopefully this clear up most questions on how it works. If anything is unclear let me know.

Hey Kev, awesome post and thanks for taking the time to write it.

Can I ask a question about the bit in bold and about the structure/cycles, what do you mean by alternate between ME squats and ME deadlifts?

Do you mean deadlift for 3 weeks then squat for 3 weeks?

OR

Do you mean ME squat this week and then ME Deadlift next week or what?

kevpants · 08-05-2009 03:02PM

DM-BM wrote: »

Kevpants, what sort of programs and how long were you training, before you started Westside last may?

I wasn't really training for anything in particular. When I was in a gym I was like most people, criminally neglecting my squat and deadlift. Just trying to break my own little records at stuff like handstand pushups, one arm pushups. Crap like that. Then I decided one day to be a powerlifter and just dived in head first. I've always trained for something, whether it was a sport or pushups in my bedroom or chinups on my mams clothesline. I suppose it took about 10 or 12 years before I focused on something, powerlifting. But I was NO POWERLIFTER when I started it. I couldn't squat or pull to save my life!

Vegeta wrote: »

Hey Kev, awesome post and thanks for taking the time to write it.

Can I ask a question about the bit in bold and about the structure/cycles, what do you mean by alternate between ME squats and ME deadlifts?

Do you mean deadlift for 3 weeks then squat for 3 weeks?

OR

Do you mean ME squat this week and then ME Deadlift next week or what?

I mean 3 weeks of squats then 3 weeks of deadlifts.

I always say the best thing I ever did for my squat was replace it with deadlifts and vice versa. I would maybe eek out 2.5kg PR's each week over the 3 weeks I was squatting, I'd take 3 weeks off and deadlift, then come back and set a 7.5 kg squat PR. The breaks are crucial.

Vegeta · 08-05-2009 03:38PM

kevpants wrote: »

I mean 3 weeks of squats then 3 weeks of deadlifts.

I always say the best thing I ever did for my squat was replace it with deadlifts and vice versa. I would maybe eek out 2.5kg PR's each week over the 3 weeks I was squatting, I'd take 3 weeks off and deadlift, then come back and set a 7.5 kg squat PR. The breaks are crucial.

Christ, I thought it would have been every second week.

I had my weights in my room at home for a long time and I could not deadlift at all because it was the wooden floor of a 2 storey house. I was already driving nails through the plaster of the sitting room.

I was squatting however and raised my PR by 20 KG (80 up to 100) over a summer doing a body building program

When the weights were moved to the concrete floored shed I pulled a 30kg PR on the dead lift (120 up to 150)

Always put this down to beginner gains from continuing to squat.

In the middle of a program at the minute but think I will give this a shot in about 3-4 weeks.

Doing Stephan Korte's program at the moment and while I like it, max efforts (or close to them) are 8 weeks apart. Psychologically this doesn't leave one in a great state, I keep asking myself "Am I getting stronger, is it working" and the answer is "I'll see in 8 weeks when I try a PR"

I think its aimed at higher level folks than my n00b self. I will finish out the program though and see how it goes for me.

I like the sound of the westside approach as it seems to give feedback week to week with the ME days. I like the idea of that

FunkZ · 08-05-2009 04:08PM

I lift on a wooden floor in the attic and I set my DL PR there XD

Just had ta say!
I'm gonna cause an accident this summer haha.

kevpants · 08-05-2009 04:31PM

Vegeta wrote: »

Doing Stephan Korte's program at the moment and while I like it, max efforts (or close to them) are 8 weeks apart. Psychologically this doesn't leave one in a great state, I keep asking myself "Am I getting stronger, is it working" and the answer is "I'll see in 8 weeks when I try a PR"

That's right I meant to PM you and see how you were getting on!

Don't worry about the lack of PR attempts. You ARE getting stronger. Westside is very satisfying with all the PR's but with something like Korte or 5/3/1 you attempt a PR every few months and it should be a HUGE one!

agentgreen · 08-05-2009 05:55PM

Brill post, thanks Kev.

What type of reps and sets would you do for the assistance lifts on ME days?

Thanks again.

BossArky · 08-05-2009 07:01PM

What would you think of 20 rep squatting on the lower RE day?

Hanley · 08-05-2009 08:06PM

BossArky wrote: »

What would you think of 20 rep squatting on the lower RE day?

I think Kev's done it before.... I'd be careful tho, you could prolly burn out pretty quick if you're pushing them hard.

kevpants · 09-05-2009 11:35AM

agentgreen wrote: »

Brill post, thanks Kev.

What type of reps and sets would you do for the assistance lifts on ME days?

Thanks again.

Try and keep the reps somewhat high. Like don't go lifting heavy singles or doubles. It doesn't really matter so long as you are hitting the muscles that are letting you down. I've done sets of 20 reps and sets of 8 reps on the same exercise, see what you think works for you.

BossArky wrote: »

What would you think of 20 rep squatting on the lower RE day?

I found it grand for a few weeks then it just got too much. Recovery is important and if you find yourself feeling drained on your ME day stop them. I think I did them for about 4 weeks on my RE day. They are great for adding a bit of meat to the legs which is the clay to mould your strength from.

BossArky · 09-05-2009 12:31PM

kevpants wrote: »

I found it grand for a few weeks then it just got too much. Recovery is important and if you find yourself feeling drained on your ME day stop them. I think I did them for about 4 weeks on my RE day. They are great for adding a bit of meat to the legs which is the clay to mould your strength from.

Ok, I'll see how it goes and adjust accordingly.

qt9ukbg60ivjrn · 09-05-2009 06:33PM

Thats one of the best post I've read in a while and the thread isn't to shabby either. Always wondered about ws4sb is.

I noticed for the upper body ME day you are giving lots of chest dominated excercises.

Is that just because you're using it as a random example or does it have to be specifically those few excercises?

Instead of a bench press could I do a push press or is this excercise not the type of one to go with?

Thanks for the explanation Kevpants.

kevpants · 09-05-2009 07:05PM

Keanu Short Variable wrote: »

Thats one of the best post I've read in a while and the thread isn't to shabby either. Always wondered about ws4sb is.

I noticed for the upper body ME day you are giving lots of chest dominated excercises.

Is that just because you're using it as a random example or does it have to be specifically those few excercises?

Instead of a bench press could I do a push press or is this excercise not the type of one to go with?

Thanks for the explanation Kevpants.

Westside is a powerlifting program. Therefore it was designed with the premise in mind to increase the squat/bench/deadlift. WS4SB is one of many improvised programs that have been done off the basis of Westside. Joe Defranco customized it for use with NFL hopefuls training for the NFL combine, then decided he could sell it.

Non-powerlifters use Westside for the overall size and strength gains it offers and while it's customizable I think substituting bench with overhead press is taking it too far. For one I wouldn't recommend a beginner or even intermediate lifter repeatedly push their 1rm on the overhead press. I'd say you could measure the time it would take to get injured in minutes rather than weeks. Secondly it's just not what it's about. There's a core theme to it and if you change it too much you end with a mess.

What I've outlined isn't the only way to do Westside. Far from it, as Podge and Hanley said rack pulls are a good deadlift exercise, I just think this simplified version is most suitable for the average person who might visit this forum and not know what Westside is.

If you were to take it on as I suggested you would make progress and after a few months start to change things to suit yourself and educate yourself more on how you need to train based on your own circumstances. This is merely something to put the wheels in motion for Westside that is easy to understand and will work. It's very possible to read up on Westside and start training how you think the experts tell you and end up wasting your time.

I'm sure there are plenty of novice powerlifters who used endless cycles of board presses just like Dave Tate does only to do their first competition and get buried. It's like all the frustrated skinny guys who read Jay cutlers workout on Flex and wonder why they aren't growing even though they are copying it exactly. You need to figure out the principles of how these guys got to where they are and apply them to your training rather than just imitate their actions.

Hanley · 13-07-2011 12:06PM

I miss Kev

This is one of the best threads in the history of the forum imo.

colman1212 · 13-07-2011 01:29PM

I think I might give this a go. Looking for something new at the moment.
Would the following template look ok or am I gone badly wrong on anything?

Monday: ME Lower
Squat 4 x 1 @90%+
Good mornings 4 x 5
Leg press 4 x 5
Weighted sit ups 4 x 5

Tuesday: RE Upper
Bench 3 x 10 @60%
One armed row 3 x 10
DB bench 3 x 10
Chin ups 3 x 10

Thursday: RE Lower
Squat 3 x 10 @ 60%
Good mornings 3 x 10
Leg press 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 20

Friday: ME Upper
Bench 4 x 1 @90%+
One armed row 4 x 5
DB bench 4 x 5
Weighted Chin ups 4 x 5

Turbo_diesel · 13-07-2011 07:07PM

kevpants wrote: »

Westside is a powerlifting program. Therefore it was designed with the premise in mind to increase the squat/bench/deadlift. WS4SB is one of many improvised programs that have been done off the basis of Westside. Joe Defranco customized it for use with NFL hopefuls training for the NFL combine, then decided he could sell it.

Non-powerlifters use Westside for the overall size and strength gains it offers and while it's customizable I think substituting bench with overhead press is taking it too far. For one I wouldn't recommend a beginner or even intermediate lifter repeatedly push their 1rm on the overhead press. I'd say you could measure the time it would take to get injured in minutes rather than weeks. Secondly it's just not what it's about. There's a core theme to it and if you change it too much you end with a mess.

What I've outlined isn't the only way to do Westside. Far from it, as Podge and Hanley said rack pulls are a good deadlift exercise, I just think this simplified version is most suitable for the average person who might visit this forum and not know what Westside is.

If you were to take it on as I suggested you would make progress and after a few months start to change things to suit yourself and educate yourself more on how you need to train based on your own circumstances. This is merely something to put the wheels in motion for Westside that is easy to understand and will work. It's very possible to read up on Westside and start training how you think the experts tell you and end up wasting your time.

I'm sure there are plenty of novice powerlifters who used endless cycles of board presses just like Dave Tate does only to do their first competition and get buried. It's like all the frustrated skinny guys who read Jay cutlers workout on Flex and wonder why they aren't growing even though they are copying it exactly. You need to figure out the principles of how these guys got to where they are and apply them to your training rather than just imitate their actions.

At last I understand the Westside stuff great post! As Kev mentioned above it wouldnt be advisable to Press on the ME upper body day would benching that often & with all its variations lead to shoulder problems? Is it a decent newbie programme?

Hanley · 13-07-2011 07:08PM

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

At last I understand the Westside stuff great post! As Kev mentioned above it wouldnt be advisable to Press on the ME upper body day would benching that often & with all its variations lead to shoulder problems? Is it a decent newbie programme?

I think if you're goal is to solely get a bigger squat, bench and deadlift, and are just starting off, pure westside probably isn't the way to go.

But it's only a templated and can be managed to suit different goals.

Turbo_diesel · 13-07-2011 07:16PM

Hanley wrote: »

I think if you're goal is to solely get a bigger squat, bench and deadlift, and are just starting off, pure westside probably isn't the way to go.

But it's only a templated and can be managed to suit different goals.

So would throwing in conditioning be a no no on this programme as it would have an effect on recovery?

Hanley out of interest what do you think is the perfect programme for the newb/novice lifter? Goals for example to just get stonger & fitter ? Something like the IProgrammes with one core lift & then your assistance stuff? Throw in your conditioning days etc?

colman1212 · 14-07-2011 01:04PM

colman1212 wrote: »

I think I might give this a go. Looking for something new at the moment.
Would the following template look ok or am I gone badly wrong on anything?

Monday: ME Lower
Squat 4 x 1 @90%+
Good mornings 4 x 5
Leg press 4 x 5
Weighted sit ups 4 x 5

Tuesday: RE Upper
Bench 3 x 10 @60%
One armed row 3 x 10
DB bench 3 x 10
Chin ups 3 x 10

Thursday: RE Lower
Squat 3 x 10 @ 60%
Good mornings 3 x 10
Leg press 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 20

Friday: ME Upper
Bench 4 x 1 @90%+
One armed row 4 x 5
DB bench 4 x 5
Weighted Chin ups 4 x 5

Bump - Sorry lads. Does the above program look right or have I got it all wrong??

Hanley · 14-07-2011 01:22PM

colman1212 wrote: »

I think I might give this a go. Looking for something new at the moment.
Would the following template look ok or am I gone badly wrong on anything?

Monday: ME Lower
Squat 4 x 1 @90%+
Good mornings 4 x 5
Leg press 4 x 5
Weighted sit ups 4 x 5

I dunno how good an idea starting with singles is. You might be better working down from max 3-5 over 3 weeks to near max singles.
You need to be progressing with the assistance/supplementary work. Starting at 5’s is going to make that hard. You’d be better starting with 3-4 x10-12, trying to increase each week (either via reps or weight) and coming down to where 5’s are difficult over like a 4-6 week period.

Tuesday: RE Upper
Bench 3 x 10 @60%
One armed row 3 x 10
DB bench 3 x 10
Chin ups 3 x 10

Yeah looks grand.

Thursday: RE Lower
Squat 3 x 10 @ 60%
Good mornings 3 x 10
Leg press 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 20

You should probably have different exercises in here to your ME day. Like Squats can stay, cos you need the volume (just don’t wreck yourself on them on this day), but ya also want to get some DL related stuff in.

Like maybe deadlifts/rack pulls as a first movement (nothing killer, but moderately tough sets of 5), follow with squats, leg curls or pull thrus and ab work.

Friday: ME Upper
Bench 4 x 1 @90%+
One armed row 4 x 5
DB bench 4 x 5
Weighted Chin ups 4 x 5

Again, change the exercises from your RE day. You don’t want to be doing the same movements 2x really. Maybe have a bench variation (board press, band press, incline press etc etc), a barbell row, dips/some other bench assistance and keep the weighted chins cos they’re awesome.

It’s very light on DL stuff as well as youv’e written it.

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

So would throwing in conditioning be a no no on this programme as it would have an effect on recovery?

Hanley out of interest what do you think is the perfect programme for the newb/novice lifter? Goals for example to just get stonger & fitter ? Something like the IProgrammes with one core lift & then your assistance stuff? Throw in your conditioning days etc?

It depends…. Are you putting them in for a specific reason? How hard are your sessions? What’s your recovery like? Kcals deficit/excess? It’s very individual as to what you can handle.

Perfect program for someone just getting started? Again it depends on their background. Something like the IP set up of 2 dedicated strength days and 2 ‘conditioning’ days (which are really as much about volume as anything) would be a pretty good starting point.

Like with the iPrograms you’ve a lower body push/upper body pull and lower body pull/upper body push on the two days with balanced assistance work, and then you’ve a couple of high intensity interval blocks and some moderate intensity muscle building blocks as part of the conditioniong days. It covers most the bases really.

colman1212 · 15-07-2011 01:12AM

Thanks a million hanley. Thats exactly what I was looking for.
I'll change it so I'm using different assistance exercises on the ME and RE days. Also I'll start at higher reps on the ME days and work down as I move through cycles of it.

The reason I hadn't included the deadlift in there is I was going to switch it up between squats and deadlifts every 3 weeks. So I thought the idea was that you completely leave out deadlifts for 3 weeks and then completely leave out squats for 3 weeks?

The same with the bench, I thought you'd do bench for 3 weeks, then close grip or floor press for 3 weeks etc?

I'll probably kick this off next week and finish up with starting strength this week.

Brian? · 15-07-2011 06:24AM

colman1212 wrote: »

The reason I hadn't included the deadlift in there is I was going to switch it up between squats and deadlifts every 3 weeks. So I thought the idea was that you completely leave out deadlifts for 3 weeks and then completely leave out squats for 3 weeks?

My understanding (Hanley will correct me if I'm wrong) is that you still need to do deadlift assistance work even if you're not deadlifting for 3 weeks at a time.

Hanley · 15-07-2011 08:22AM

colman1212 wrote: »

Thanks a million hanley. Thats exactly what I was looking for.
I'll change it so I'm using different assistance exercises on the ME and RE days. Also I'll start at higher reps on the ME days and work down as I move through cycles of it.

The reason I hadn't included the deadlift in there is I was going to switch it up between squats and deadlifts every 3 weeks. So I thought the idea was that you completely leave out deadlifts for 3 weeks and then completely leave out squats for 3 weeks?

I'll probably kick this off next week and finish up with starting strength this week.

Maybe when you’re an elite powerlifter with a terrible level of GPP, so that any intense deadlifts will leave you f*cked for a couple of weeks… but you’re not!

This is another issue I have with WSBB (the other being how people see all the big US equipped lifters banging on about board pressing and think it’s the cure for all bench ailments when it’s probably gonna actually have no carryover for them).

The reason there’s minimal DL’n included is because when you’re pulling big weights it’s very hard to recover from. You’ll often see speed pulls included as a first exercise on the traditional DE lower day (ie your RE lower). Something like 50-60% 8x1-2 w/ 60 second break. But for most people it’s largely pointless as they can’t hold their ‘max weight’ form with 60% and still pull explosively. They end up just ripping the bar up as fast as possible and not pulling the correct way - total waste of time.

The easiest way to get better at any lift is to do it. What you’re proposing is effectively ignoring squats for half the year, and ignoring DLs for half the year. Makes no sense when you can train both, and do so quite effectively. A combination of rack pulls from various heights (knee level to bar almost on the floor) and speed pulls are a pretty solid way of bringing your DL up. Not saying you have to do both during every 3 week cycle, but you should be including something. Even SLDLs or the like.

And another thing… a lot of people will be limited in their DL by grip strength. While Louie might argue that squatting, GMs, core etc etc will help to increase your DL too, if you can’t hold onto the bar it doesn’t matter.

The same with the bench, I thought you'd do bench for 3 weeks, then close grip or floor press for 3 weeks etc?

Ish… Again with traditional WSBB you’re speed benching 1x per week on the DE days, so you are getting a lot of quality bench volume in. Ya gotta remember that most of the guys who have success with it tend to be very technically proficient too, so not benching for a few weeks won’t screw up their bench groove.

sharky86 · 15-07-2011 09:41AM

Hanley, when you opening up your own gym or writing a book or something eh?

Hanley · 15-07-2011 09:54AM

sharky86 wrote: »

Hanley, when you opening up your own gym or writing a book or something eh?

Lolz I've actually got all my PT stuff sorted, have been working on a blog and registered jameshanley.ie a few weeks ago

King of Kings · 15-07-2011 08:58PM

I have tried version 1 a few times - the 3 day one and I really like it.

However wondering do people mix the exercises (where given a choice within a grouping) about or stick to the same ones?

itsallaboutheL · 15-07-2011 09:00PM

Sell out.

Hanley · 16-07-2011 12:22AM

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Sell out.

Please. As if you can talk.

Mellor · 08-09-2011 05:23AM

Bump for one of the best threads on the forum.

I was thinking about giving this a shot the lst time it was bumped up.
Now's a good time as I'm nearly at the end of my cardio/running+resistance training phase, last race is next week.
So i'm like 80% sure i'll be doing this

I've only ever read Kev's OP regarding WW4SB, so i downloaded the PDF to have a read of the ful thing.
Low and behold, i'm more confused now.

kevpants wrote: »

ME = Max effort. You do one ME day a week for both your upper and lower body. The most important thing about ME day is that you get at least 3 or 4 lifts in at about 90% or above of your 1 rep max. This is why it is called Max Effort.
MYTH ALERT: These 1 rep max attempts are not a test, of your strength. They are a strength building exercise. So many people believe it is just to test your strength, why the hell would you do that every week?

The reason i liked the version in Kevs OP was that is has singles once a week for both upper and lower. I glanced the at the WW4SB pdf and it says to work up to a 3-5 rep PR
I even had to go back to it and check I didn't misread.
I don't really care, and i'm doing it as per the OP. I'm mostly here for the bump

Brian? · 08-09-2011 07:45AM

Mellor wrote: »

Bump for one of the best threads on the forum.

I was thinking about giving this a shot the lst time it was bumped up.
Now's a good time as I'm nearly at the end of my cardio/running+resistance training phase, last race is next week.
So i'm like 80% sure i'll be doing this

Do it. I have been giving it a go for about 6 weeks now and really like it. Although I am fairly sure the RE lower day is going to kill me.

I've only ever read Kev's OP regarding WW4SB, so i downloaded the PDF to have a read of the ful thing.
Low and behold, i'm more confused now.

Well that's what you get for doubting Mr. Pants.

The reason i liked the version in Kevs OP was that is has singles once a week for both upper and lower. I glanced the at the WW4SB pdf and it says to work up to a 3-5 rep PR
I even had to go back to it and check I didn't misread.
I don't really care, and i'm doing it as per the OP. I'm mostly here for the bump

I've been doing the singles twice a week, don't see any reason not to. I never downloaded this "pdf" you talk of. I have placed my faith in Kevpants as my new messiah.

Westside for confused bastards

Comments