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Scotland v Ireland (pre/during/post thread)

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    #32
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    toomevara wrote: »
    As someone with long and bitter experience of irish disaster at Murrayfield, I'll take any win...we'll do it..just, by a score....

    I have the same long and bitter experience, although recently (bar the pre world cup disaster) it hasn't been so bitter, maybe tense.

    Irelands defense has been very good, and Scotlands attack is poor. True, they have some new good backs but they still are no great shakes attacking wise. I see them maybe getting one try, at a push. I can see this Irish team getting at least 2, plus some penalities. So I don't think 16 is a fantastical prediction.

    Anyway I think we will all be happy if we are going to Cardiff unbeaten, no matter what the scorelines are!


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    #33
    Timothy Bryce
    Registered Users Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Timothy Bryce


    Best is only in there based on his last few performaces - the only decent thing he brings is his scrummaging. Flannery is a better thrower and better in the loose.

    DK has one eye on the Wales game alright - get a good decent test ready squad going into the Cardiff decider


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    #34
    Goose81
    Registered Users Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭Goose81


    Timothy Bryce wrote: »
    Best is only in there based on his last few performaces - the only decent thing he brings is his scrummaging. Flannery is a better thrower and better in the loose.

    DK has one eye on the Wales game alright - get a good decent test ready squad going into the Cardiff decider


    Flannery is not better in the loose.He tries but he is no where near as effective as he was.Best is better in the loose and scrum.


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    #35
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Goose81 wrote: »
    At least Best will actually do something on the pitch.

    Flannery may be a better thrower but Best is far superior in every other aspect.Kidney has obvously had him throwing losts this week,so id expect him to be fine.

    Funny I would say that Flannery is better in the loose than Best but not by a huge amount, Best is undoubtedly the better scrumager but that is the only aspect of his game that I would think is superior to Flannery's


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    #36
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    Flannery has definitely lost some of his effectiveness in the loose recently, not that he is bad now....but Best is definitely not inferior in this regard anymore.


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    #37
    sm.org
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭sm.org


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Funny I would say that Flannery is better in the loose than Best but not by a huge amount, Best is undoubtedly the better scrumager but that is the only aspect of his game that I would think is superior to Flannery's

    I always wonder why people say Best is the better scrumager, how is it rated? I know he's bigger but I cant say I've ever noticed a marked improvement in the Irish scrum when he's in it.

    Flannery seems to have found his form again and is a shoe in for the Lions.


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    #38
    themont85
    Registered Users Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    Thats a very Scotland orientated selection. We have very few ball carriers with Heaslip out with POC and Wallace the only two ones in the side, Darcy will have to take up a few balls more than Wallace has had to. Leamy is a 6 despite the majority of his appearences been at 8 imo and he'll give the rucks a good pounding on Saturday, hopefully he keeps his discipline in check cos they'll be out to get him with this been his first start i reckon. Its a good selection for the game thats in it but i would be very dissapointed not to see Heaslip in the team for Cardiff.

    The team is still vastly experienced, more so than the last one actually so they should have enough for Saturday.

    I'm slightly woried that Scotland are beginning to find some back line innovation after years of bludgon running.

    I'm really dreading a Murrayfield 01 mark 2 though..


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    #39
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    sm.org wrote: »
    I always wonder why people say Best is the better scrumager, how is it rated? I know he's bigger but I cant say I've ever noticed a marked improvement in the Irish scrum when he's in it.

    Flannery seems to have found his form again and is a shoe in for the Lions.

    Yeah, I suppose a lot of people just go by what the experts/pundits say. I usually don't notice a vast improvement when he comes on. In fact our scrum has been decent enough of later with Flannery. :confused:

    Off topic, but it also reminds me of the Parisse situation. He is lauded as the best 8 in the world sometimes. Now, he is a great player but from what I do see of him (which admittedly is not alot) he is very good....but there are a lot of 8's I would put up there with him, if not better. Again, off topic but another example maybe of people (incl the pundits) following the general consensus and propogating a myth that might not necessarily hold much water.


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    #40
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    themont85 wrote: »
    Its a good selection for the game thats in it but i would be very dissapointed not to see Heaslip in the team for Cardiff.

    I'm really dreading a Murrayfield 01 mark 2 though..

    I seriously doubt Heaslip will be on the bench against Wales. He has been playing fantastic and has been integral to our success in this tournament thus far. Kidney will reward that and he will start, unless Leamy has the his best game ever in a green shirt and forces Kidneys hand.

    Also comparing this game to 01 is crazy. Completely different team, coaches and situation! Ireland played Scotland in September ffs!! :D


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    #41
    Ulstermell0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭Ulstermell0


    Noopti wrote: »
    Yeah, I suppose a lot of people just go by what the experts/pundits say. I usually don't notice a vast improvement when he comes on. In fact our scrum has been decent enough of later with Flannery. :confused:

    Off topic, but it also reminds me of the Parisse situation. He is lauded as the best 8 in the world sometimes. Now, he is a great player but from what I do see of him (which admittedly is not alot) he is very good....but there are a lot of 8's I would put up there with him, if not better. Again, off topic but another example maybe of people (incl the pundits) following the general consensus and propogating a myth that might not necessarily hold much water.

    not watched that much of him either, but i think Parisse was outstanding against scotland - should have been MOTM

    He just gets everywhere and does everything on attack and in defence - like a forward version of BOD!


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    #42
    themont85
    Registered Users Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    Noopti wrote: »
    Also comparing this game to 01 is crazy. Completely different team, coaches and situation! Ireland played Scotland in September ffs!! :D

    I know but this is Scotland... they give us a hard game always in Murrayfield. We threw a chance at the Slam away that year with a complacent performance. Tbh im more concerned about this game than the Wales one, weird i know but thats just how it is.


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    #43
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    Ulstermell0 wrote: »
    not watched that much of him either, but i think Parisse was outstanding against scotland - should have been MOTM

    He just gets everywhere and does everything on attack and in defence - like a forward version of BOD!

    Yep, that's true.....but look at the team he is playing in. A player of his class will instantly look much better when surrounded by poor players. Tbh Heaslip and Harinordoquy have been just as good, if not better.


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    #44
    themont85
    Registered Users Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    Ulstermell0 wrote: »
    not watched that much of him either, but i think Parisse was outstanding against scotland - should have been MOTM

    He just gets everywhere and does everything on attack and in defence - like a forward version of BOD!

    Parisse is what Keith Wood was to Ireland 10 years ago, a world class forward with an array of skills(including the drop goal!) playing in a team of players way below their level.


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    #45
    Persiancowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭Persiancowboy


    A couple of quick observations about the starting 15 for saturday:

    firstly it shows another welcome change from the previous regime where it was often more difficult to get off the team than it was to get on it. At least Deccie is showing a willingness to use the squad available to him and to make the hard choices when he feels the need to do so. The clear message to all the squad is that there are no untouchables on it.

    Having said that I have to say as a Munsterman I feel sorry for Heaslip - thought he had been playing very well thus far. Leamy brings a lot to the side but as previous posters have said I really hope he keeps his discipline in check. Flannery can feel a bit hard done by but then he and Best have been subbing for each other for ages now so he can expect some game time on Saturday. Our lineout has worked well this year so I really hope Best's inclusion does not disrupt that.

    Darcy's return was well predicted and his speed and ability to break the tackle will be a big plus for us. Stringer will not play for the 80 minutes but again his inclusion should help speed up the ball to our backs. Only question then is what will o'Gara's riding instructions be - hopefully it will be to get our backline moving and that he won't spend the entire afternoon kicking behind the Scottish backs.

    Overall this team has the ability and the confidence to beat the Scots and set up a cracking final game against the Welsh.


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    #46
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Noopti wrote: »
    Flannery has definitely lost some of his effectiveness in the loose recently, not that he is bad now....but Best is definitely not inferior in this regard anymore.

    I think the removal of the maul from the game has affected how people view Flannery's performance as he was always the one who carried at the back of it thus upping his visible involvement in games. He for me however has presented as a ball carrier more than most of the back row in the games so far although he has been taking the ball more static than previously which affects the hard yards he is making!
    sm.org wrote: »
    I always wonder why people say Best is the better scrumager, how is it rated? I know he's bigger but I cant say I've ever noticed a marked improvement in the Irish scrum when he's in it.

    Flannery seems to have found his form again and is a shoe in for the Lions.

    It's a matter of degrees I guess but if you look at the Italian game there was a huge difference in the Irish scrum after Best came on in fact we started to drive the Italians back on their ball however we never won a lineout on our own ball after his introduction either!


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    #47
    Timothy Bryce
    Registered Users Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Timothy Bryce


    Noopti wrote: »
    Yep, that's true.....but look at the team he is playing in. A player of his class will instantly look much better when surrounded by poor players. Tbh Heaslip and Harinordoquy have been just as good, if not better.

    +1

    Plus Andy Powell


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    #48
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Noopti wrote: »
    Yep, that's true.....but look at the team he is playing in. A player of his class will instantly look much better when surrounded by poor players. Tbh Heaslip and Harinordoquy have been just as good, if not better.

    Harinordoquy's performance against the Welsh is the epitome of what a number 8 should do, an absolute masterclass from start to finish!


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    #49
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    Timothy Bryce wrote: »
    +1

    Plus Andy Powell

    Going on the A.I's yes, but in the 6N so far he has not been up to his previous standard.


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    #50
    Goose81
    Registered Users Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭Goose81


    Harinorduquy,Heaslip and powell all play for the top 3 teams.Parisse plays with the worst team in the competition.

    I havent seen Heaslip,Harinorduquy or Powell chip players like a back or hit drop goals like a 10 this six nations,Parisse has done both.

    If I was to rate the 8's so far in order of performances:

    Harinorduquy
    Heaslip
    Parisse
    Powell


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    #51
    buck65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    Flannery is a good tigerish player at the breakdown and in the loose, his scrummaging is decent too and he hits his targets in the lineout. Best is a safer (assuming he hits his darts) option but less dynamic.
    Leamy will pound away all day but can surprise with a break also, would expect Heaslip to come on after 50 mins when things have loosened up and make some trademark runs.
    Stringer will spread the ball faster and it is obvious that his selection displays what Kidney thinks of Scotland's attack!
    D'arcy for Wallace is a no brainer- Wallace contributed very little in the previous games. D'arcy played well enough last week in Swansea and deserves a game.
    All in all the changes should inject a bit of fizz into proceedings


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    #52
    Rattlehead_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭Rattlehead_ie


    buck65 wrote: »
    All in all the changes should inject a bit of fizz into proceedings

    Hopefully D'arcy inclusion will inject a bit of Fitz into proceedings, see what I did there :p

    To be honest I think the Best inclusion is a better choice, IMHO i would say he is a better scrumager and better disiplined and I think with someone like Patterson on the pitch that is one thing we will need.

    D'arcy as earlier stated is a no brainer. I sat there watching the Leinster game last wkend and his hunger for the ball and his abuse and breaking of defensive line in making himself go forward or creating the space for going forward ball was immense.

    Im happy with the backrow for now. I think with Kindey is trying to an ability to be able to swap out and adjust his back 3 which will be important come the welsh game.

    I want to see Murphy play just to see if he can pull off the drop goal stunt again from 55m out.


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    #53
    RuggieBear
    Registered Users Posts: 17,958 ✭✭✭✭RuggieBear


    tbh i think flannery has been very good this six nations...both in the loose and throwing. admittedly he is not punching huge holes but for the most part he has provided go forward ball.

    Best has had at least one howler throwing in each game he has come on but other wise has been good too.


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    #54
    Colm_OReilly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    Lads I have it from an ultra reliable source that Jerry has an appointment in Tony and Guy at 16.00 so wouldn't make kick off, but will be there for the second half :D

    Even though Heaslip was quieter against England I don't think he's been dropped per se as is being rested/Leamy is being developed. Happy with Darce and Strings on. When Stringer has come on he's marshalled the forwards well, and I wasn't overly impressed with Wallace against England, but have been with Darce when he's came on.

    Someone posted they don't want RoG to kick behind the Scots, why not? Surely our strategy should be to keep it in their third of the pitch and look for penalties. If we run from our own half and don't hold our discipline, we give Paterson a chance to kick points. Since Scotland lack real effective attacking, we should take the points early, and force them to chase the game - then give it out to the backs.

    Of course, I'm just a guy who watches the game and no Declan Kidney.


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    #55
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    i think leamy's selection gives an insight into how the game is going to be played. heaslip is a great open field runner but leamy is more of a groundhog. i think the main focus for the back row is to get quick ball out to the backs (stringer will aid in this) score tries and finish off the championship this weekend. good call.


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    #56
    Noopti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Noopti


    Colm_OReilly wrote: »
    Lads I have it from an ultra reliable source that Jerry has an appointment in Tony and Guy at 16.00 so wouldn't make kick off, but will be there for the second half :D

    Well his hair is more important than timekeeping afterall.


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    #57
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Folks, some interesting points re the Best/Flannery thing. I wouldnt agree with it all.

    Statistical when Best has been at hooker, the Irish lineout has functioned better in recent seasons. Best was always the better thrower than Flannery for Ireland, of this there is no question. It was always Jerry's achilles heel to some degree. In fairness to Jerry he has been very good this season and has improved immeasurably thankfully. To say he is now better than Best is laughable, based on what? One of the reasons I favoured Best over Flannery was the accuracy of his throwing. Its quite ironic that most posters now think this is now Best's weakness! Folks its not true, yes he had a couple of bad throws, which was as much down to the nerves and adreline of a sub as anything. Every other facet of his game was spot on. Lets see him on Sat when hes back in a pre game routine.

    Other skills of players. Best is a better scrummager, ask the guys he plays with! :). Best is probably a better tackler and fringe defender than Fla. In my opinion, Fla is still better in loose in that he will gain more yards through hard carries.

    To be honest, both should be on Lions tour. Jackman is nowhere near as complete a player than either of these two.


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    #58
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Colm_OReilly wrote: »
    Someone posted they don't want RoG to kick behind the Scots, why not? Surely our strategy should be to keep it in their third of the pitch and look for penalties. If we run from our own half and don't hold our discipline, we give Paterson a chance to kick points. Since Scotland lack real effective attacking, we should take the points early, and force them to chase the game - then give it out to the backs.

    Of course, I'm just a guy who watches the game and no Declan Kidney.


    Think that's the way the game will be played alright but Stringers inclusion does indicate he is planning on mixing it up from the start which might not be a bad thing as ROG's kicking from hand has been suspect in all three games so far so it will be good to keep the Scotish defence thinking about what might happen!

    IMO Leamy is there because the Scotish back row will do what all Scotish back rows do, live offside and try slow the ball down. Leamy is big and physical a real work horse when it comes to clearing rucks and I'd say that's what he will be doing on Saturday. Clearing out for quick ball to move it away from the breakdown!


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    #59
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Brewster wrote: »
    Folks, some interesting points re the Best/Flannery thing. I wouldnt agree with it all.

    Statistical when Best has been at hooker, the Irish lineout has functioned better in recent seasons. Best was always the better thrower than Flannery for Ireland, of this there is no question. It was always Jerry's achilles heel to some degree. In fairness to Jerry he has been very good this season and has improved immeasurably thankfully. To say he is now better than Best is laughable, based on what? One of the reasons I favoured Best over Flannery was the accuracy of his throwing. Its quite ironic that most posters now think this is now Best's weakness! Folks its not true, yes he had a couple of bad throws, which was as much down to the nerves and adreline of a sub as anything. Every other facet of his game was spot on. Lets see him on Sat when hes back in a pre game routine.

    Other skills of players. Best is a better scrummager, ask the guys he plays with! :). Best is probably a better tackler and fringe defender than Fla. In my opinion, Fla is still better in loose in that he will gain more yards through hard carries.

    To be honest, both should be on Lions tour. Jackman is nowhere near as complete a player than either of these two.


    Have you watched any Irish games this season? Best's throwing has been 'jackmanesque' when he came on last week he scored 2/2 for crooked lineouts, it was 2/4 the previous week.
    as for the point about improved scrummaging when he came on against Italy, both Italian props had been injured by that stage.
    Best is a good leader but he is not at Flannery's standard of overall play.
    In defence of his lineout in the last 2 games when he's come on as sub POC has called throws to the tail which is pretty unfair/stupid when a fresh hooker is on the pitch


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    #60
    Aidric
    Registered Users Posts: 13,589 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Funny I would say that Flannery is better in the loose than Best but not by a huge amount, Best is undoubtedly the better scrumager but that is the only aspect of his game that I would think is superior to Flannery's
    Yep, I'd have Flannery over Best every day of the week. As others have alluded to the Lineout is key for Ireland to get an attacking platform and Best's throwing runs the risk of negating this.


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    #61
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'm happy with most of those changes I must say. I imagine the team will revert to the one that lined out in the other three games once we hit Wales, but it does give those players actually pushing for a spot a chance to show what they can do with the start.

    I'm not overly happy with Leamy at 8 though. I imagine Heaslip is still seen as first choice, but I just don't like Leamy at 8. He's a fantastic 6 and can do a job at 8 if he has to come on there from the bench, but that's it as far as I am concerned.


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