The religious come a' knockin

swiss · 13-02-2009 1:34am #1

After just over two years living in Dublin, I've finally had the faithful call to my door to try to get me round to their way of thinking. Two Chinese girls popped up, presumably ready for a polite brush off (maybe I'm being unkind to my fellow neighbours).

I don't know what specific flavour of Christianity they were peddling, but it seemed to center on the idea of God having a female as well as a male character. They had this questionnaire that asked me a few basic belief questions, as well as a few Bible passages with a question asking me what it means.

I have to say I found the conversation interesting, they seemed surprised when I told them that I didn't believe in the bible in any sort of religious sense. When they told me the bible was true I simply replied that it was a circular logic. The Bible is true because it was written by God because it says so in... the Bible.

They then asked me if I believed I had a spirit, to which I of course replied that I didn't, and that when we die we rot in the ground. Hardly an uplifting thought, but at least I'm not kidding myself, or so I believe. Oddly enough, they mentioned that it was "proved" that the soul existed because it had a weight as scientists measured peoples weight as they died. My retort was that I would like to see the paper in which these results were published. I further explained that my world view was informed by evidence, and that my non belief was due to the lack of evidence for a supernatural deity. The conversation revolved around this theme for a while.

Finally they thanked me for my time and left.

I find myself wondering if I was being rude by engaging them in such frank debate, would they expect that I nod politely or accept their argument? Or perhaps that they would get the brush off? How do people here generally deal with religious proselytising?

Húrin · 13-02-2009 2:40am

Sounds like a good way to respond. I'd be alarmed if somebody found that the soul had a measurable weight... it should not do as it is not physical. The film 21 grams was made about this claim.

uncleoswald · 13-02-2009 10:44am

I wonder if it was the same two I met on the street recently. They stopped me wanting to ask me some questions. (usually I'd walk on but the guy they asked before me had aggressively told them to f*ck off so I felt embarrassed to be Irish and they were kind of cute

) It was only once they had me that I realised it was just about Jesus. I really didn't want to get into a debate in the middle of the street and they seemed fairly harmless so I quickly apologised and made my retreat.

Handsome Bob · 13-02-2009 10:56am

swiss wrote: »

After just over two years living in Dublin, I've finally had the faithful call to my door to try to get me round to their way of thinking. Two Chinese girls popped up, presumably ready for a polite brush off (maybe I'm being unkind to my fellow neighbours).

I don't know what specific flavour of Christianity they were peddling, but it seemed to center on the idea of God having a female as well as a male character. They had this questionnaire that asked me a few basic belief questions, as well as a few Bible passages with a question asking me what it means.

I have to say I found the conversation interesting, they seemed surprised when I told them that I didn't believe in the bible in any sort of religious sense. When they told me the bible was true I simply replied that it was a circular logic. The Bible is true because it was written by God because it says so in... the Bible.

They then asked me if I believed I had a spirit, to which I of course replied that I didn't, and that when we die we rot in the ground. Hardly an uplifting thought, but at least I'm not kidding myself, or so I believe. Oddly enough, they mentioned that it was "proved" that the soul existed because it had a weight as scientists measured peoples weight as they died. My retort was that I would like to see the paper in which these results were published. I further explained that my world view was informed by evidence, and that my non belief was due to the lack of evidence for a supernatural deity. The conversation revolved around this theme for a while.

Finally they thanked me for my time and left.

I find myself wondering if I was being rude by engaging them in such frank debate, would they expect that I nod politely or accept their argument? Or perhaps that they would get the brush off? How do people here generally deal with religious proselytising?

Hardly the most hostile of exchanges, I've seen far worse. You were by no means rude, that is of course if the exchange went as you say it did.:pac:

Asiaprod · 13-02-2009 11:46am

swiss wrote: »

Two Chinese girls popped up, presumably ready for a polite brush off (maybe I'm being unkind to my fellow neighbours).

I don't know what specific flavour of Christianity they were peddling, but it seemed to center on the idea of God having a female as well as a male character.

Wow, thats a new one on me. I know we have a branch of Christianity in Japan that worships at Jesus' grave...yes he is buried in Japan. I have never heard of any branch in Asia that centers on a female side to the Christian God.

Zombrex · 13-02-2009 11:49am

er, everyone back up there for a minute ... let me get this straight, there are two cute Asian chicks wandering around Dublin who would actually want to stop and chat to me ... where and when please :pac:

Gambler · 13-02-2009 12:17pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

I know we have a branch of Christianity in Japan that worships at Jesus' grave...yes he is buried in Japan.

Poor guy must have been cut up into pieces and sent to different part of the worlds, seems a few people have his burial site..

http://www.jesus.com.au/html/page/jesus_in_india
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_views_of_Jesus
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1171894508893

And apparently he also ascended to heaven leaving no earthly remains, it all depends on who you talk to...

uncleoswald · 13-02-2009 1:16pm

Gambler wrote: »

Poor guy must have been cut up into pieces and sent to different part of the worlds, seems a few people have his burial site..

And apparently he also ascended to heaven leaving no earthly remains, it all depends on who you talk to...

Sure I have some in a jar at home. Who doesn't?

The Mad Hatter · 13-02-2009 1:26pm

Gambler wrote: »

Poor guy must have been cut up into pieces and sent to different part of the worlds, seems a few people have his burial site..

http://www.jesus.com.au/html/page/jesus_in_india
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_views_of_Jesus
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1171894508893

And apparently he also ascended to heaven leaving no earthly remains, it all depends on who you talk to...

That's nothing. According to QI, his grandmother had seven heads. They were all approved as relics by the RCC back in way-back-when.

ChocolateSauce · 13-02-2009 3:42pm

Sounds like a fine way to respond. By approaching you, they signed away any right they may have had to not have their beliefs attacked, and by merely asking questions you were very moderate.

In fact, it might even be argued that it's rude to just nod politely, because in your head you'd be going "yeah right", and being slightly dishonest by not telling them so.

Rev Hellfire · 13-02-2009 4:15pm

A simple thanks but not interested is all that's required.
Manners people, its a case of manners.

Dades · 13-02-2009 4:29pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Manners people, its a case of manners.

Shouldn't 'manners' preclude someone from asking a stranger about their religion in the first place?

Rev Hellfire · 13-02-2009 4:58pm

Dades wrote: »

Shouldn't 'manners' preclude someone from asking a stranger about their religion in the first place?

Two wrongs don't make a right

Galvasean · 13-02-2009 7:21pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Two wrongs don't make a right

An eye for an eye.

swiss · 13-02-2009 8:12pm

Ah but you see I didn't mind being bothered, I sometimes fear that I live in a little world where my beliefs are re-inforced by my peers and by what I read on the Internet, so in a way I found it an interesting exercise to explain and defend what I feel about the world and a supernatural existence (or lack thereof) to others.

I don't feel I was being rude either. I think that people can believe what they like, but in order to bring me on board, I do think that it is important to demonstrate to my satisfaction a rigorous logic and argument to support their case. In this case, it was bases on Bible verses which I perhaps unkindly dismissed more or less out of hand. It was almost as if I had torpedoed their whole argument by arguing the bible was a work of fiction. Which it is (where is the right smiley when you need it).

Zillah · 13-02-2009 9:24pm

Aren´t most of these people told to not bother with atheists at all? It´s way easier to convince someone of weak faith to transfer it than to cause it´s spontaneous generation in a cold rational heart.

Anyway, I think you were quite gentle with them. I´d have been much the same but I´d have thrown in a little bit of argument by ridicule.

Really depends on how cute they were.

Schuhart · 13-02-2009 10:06pm

Húrin wrote: »

Sounds like a good way to respond. I'd be alarmed if somebody found that the soul had a measurable weight... it should not do as it is not physical. The film 21 grams was made about this claim.

Just to save people a Google, an article explaining why the claim is baloney is here.

Yeah, I know that it probably means something if we sort of knew it was baloney to begin with about implicit assumptions in our outlook. But I'll take refuge in the statement that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Wacker · 13-02-2009 10:34pm

swiss wrote: »

Oddly enough, they mentioned that it was "proved" that the soul existed because it had a weight as scientists measured peoples weight as they died.

Doesn't your sphincter muscle relax as you die?

Handsome Bob · 14-02-2009 12:24am

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

A simple thanks but not interested is all that's required.
Manners people, its a case of manners.

I really don't think his manners were that bad in comparison to what I have seen before. It's not as if he directly insulted them.

Zillah wrote: »

I´d have been much the same but I´d have thrown in a little bit of argument by ridicule.

Really depends on how cute they were.

That honestly shocks me.:pac:

davef1000 · 14-02-2009 9:14pm

I lived in Terenure until a few months ago and used to regularly get visits from the evangelisers from the church near the corner of Leinster Road. I'd usually just tell them that I'm not interested in talking about Jesus, and leave it at that. The odd time I'd engage in a conversation, if I fancied a bit of a debate. The majority of times they were alright, if very patronising. ("Ah, sure when you grow up you'll come to your senses" sort of thing. I'm 29...) The last time I spoke to any of them it went something like this:

Person at my door: "Hello, we're from a church in Harold's Cross. Are you a Catholic?"

Me: "No."

P: "Well, when you look for Jesus you'll find he can do some great things."

M: "I have looked, actually, and I didn't find anything."

P: "Oh, well when you look a bit harder, you'll see that he can do things like cure the sick."

M: "He hasn't been doing much of that lately, has he?"

P: "Oh, he HAS! In my prayer group people are cured all the time. He cures things like a sore leg, or a pain in the back, or homosexuality-"

M: "Wait, you're saying that homosexuality is something that needs to be CURED?"

P: "It can be, yes."

M: *slams door*

And this from a woman my age who looked like butter wouldn't melt.

swiss · 14-02-2009 10:18pm

davef1000 wrote: »

P: "Oh, he HAS! In my prayer group people are cured all the time. He cures things like a sore leg, or a pain in the back, or homosexuality-"

M: "Wait, you're saying that homosexuality is something that needs to be CURED?"

P: "It can be, yes."

At least they didn't try this line of logic with me.

Húrin · 15-02-2009 1:31am

davef1000 wrote: »

Person at my door: "Hello, we're from a church in Harold's Cross. Are you a Catholic?"

Me: "No."

P: "Well, when you look for Jesus you'll find he can do some great things."

M: "I have looked, actually, and I didn't find anything."

P: "Oh, well when you look a bit harder, you'll see that he can do things like cure the sick."

M: "He hasn't been doing much of that lately, has he?"

P: "Oh, he HAS! In my prayer group people are cured all the time. He cures things like a sore leg, or a pain in the back, or homosexuality-"

M: "Wait, you're saying that homosexuality is something that needs to be CURED?"

P: "It can be, yes."

M: *slams door*

And this from a woman my age who looked like butter wouldn't melt.

It's funny how the homosexuality issue is such a deal-breaker for people these days.

Mickeroo · 15-02-2009 2:25am

Húrin wrote: »

It's funny how the homosexuality issue is such a deal-breaker for people these days.

I think it's funny people still think it's wrong.

Dades · 15-02-2009 9:56am

It's funnier how "worship" is such a deal breaker for an all-loving creator.

Dave! · 15-02-2009 12:00pm

Húrin wrote: »

It's funny how the homosexuality issue is such a deal-breaker for people these days.

ffs....

Galvasean · 15-02-2009 12:45pm

I think its funny how homosexuality is likened to having a sore leg.

Mena · 15-02-2009 12:51pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I think its funny how homosexuality is likened to having a sore leg.

Sex + Kama Sutra = Sore Leg?

Galvasean · 15-02-2009 12:59pm

I wonder will the cure for homosexuality come in cream or tablet form?

The Mad Hatter · 15-02-2009 1:40pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I wonder will the cure for homosexuality come in cream or tablet form?

Suppository?

Galvasean · 15-02-2009 2:04pm

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Suppository?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frd53vbCHLg

Handsome Bob · 15-02-2009 2:19pm

Húrin wrote: »

It's funny how the homosexuality issue is such a deal-breaker for people these days.

Yup, how dare people be pissed off when they are told they are sinners for living a life that doesn't harm anyone else.

seamus · 15-02-2009 2:49pm

My gf came upon these a few years back outside of trinity college. The Asian girl stopped her and asked if she'd give her a hand with her assignment because she couldn't read it properly. She then had her basically reading bible passages, and it was only when the Asian girl started asking her odd questions and things like, "Who is the mother?" that she realised that this girl was just an odd bible-thumper with a focus on this "God is female too" thing.

I've only ever encountered real life religion spam once in my adult life. Just told the JW's that "I have no interest in having this discussion" and they promptly left without fuss.

Húrin · 15-02-2009 3:56pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Yup, how dare people be pissed off when they are told they are sinners for living a life that doesn't harm anyone else.

If we dismissed everything that pissed us off then we would be quite ignorant. For instance, the fact that global warming is happening is something that pisses a lot of people off for various reasons. But that doesn't mean that it's legitimate to use that annoyance to close their mind to that message.

Dades wrote: »

It's funnier how "worship" is such a deal breaker for an all-loving creator.

Aren't mods supposed to be broadly in favour of keeping threads on-topic?

Rev Hellfire · 15-02-2009 4:16pm

Húrin wrote: »

Aren't mods supposed to be broadly in favour of keeping threads on-topic?

Y'arr they be more guidelines than rules.

Handsome Bob · 15-02-2009 4:56pm

Húrin wrote: »

If we dismissed everything that pissed us off then we would be quite ignorant. For instance, the fact that global warming is happening is something that pisses a lot of people off for various reasons. But that doesn't mean that it's legitimate to use that annoyance to close their mind to that message.

On the one hand we have Global Warming, something that could be potentially disastrous for our planet and its' inhabitants. On the other hand we have Homosexuality, which is not a threat to human life.

Húrin · 15-02-2009 6:42pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

On the one hand we have Global Warming, something that could be potentially disastrous for our planet and its' inhabitants. On the other hand we have Homosexuality, which is not a threat to human life.

Does this mean that only facts which have life-or-death dimensions are true? I don't see how your post refutes my point. It's quite obvious that I wasn't saying the two issues are similar. However, the reaction to dismiss them is pychologically similar if not idential.

Stercus Accidit · 15-02-2009 7:29pm

Húrin wrote: »

Does this mean that only facts which have life-or-death dimensions are true? I don't see how your post refutes my point. It's quite obvious that I wasn't saying the two issues are similar. However, the reaction to dismiss them is pychologically similar if not idential.

Can you tell us then for a "fact" if homosexuality is wrong and needs to be cured then?

Galvasean · 15-02-2009 9:27pm

seamus wrote: »

religion spam

I like that term. Expect to see me using it a lot in future.

Húrin · 15-02-2009 10:14pm

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Can you tell us then for a "fact" if homosexuality is wrong and needs to be cured then?

For the purpose of this discussion it doesn't matter. My point is that it's stupid to dismiss an idea merely because it pisses you off. It is fine to dismiss it if the idea is false.

Dades · 15-02-2009 10:51pm

Hurin, we all enjoy a little off topicness once threads have served their purpose. You seem to be involved in plenty of it yourself.

And let's forget it was your post that prompted the shift.

Galvasean · 16-02-2009 1:07am

Húrin wrote: »

For the purpose of this discussion it doesn't matter. My point is that it's stupid to dismiss an idea merely because it pisses you off. It is fine to dismiss it if the idea is false.

Perhaps it pisses them off because it is false?

Húrin · 16-02-2009 1:23am

Galvasean wrote: »

Perhaps it pisses them off because it is false?

That's fair enough if you have the confidence to be sure that claims are false.

Galvasean · 16-02-2009 1:33am

Húrin wrote: »

That's fair enough if you have the confidence to be sure that claims are false.

Considering the claim in discussion is that homosexuality can and needs to be cured by prayer, yes I (and others here) am extremely confident that said claims are false.

seamus · 16-02-2009 9:24am

It also stands to reason that if homosexuality can be "cured" through any means, then it can also be "given" to a person. As a bonafide ridiculously heterosexual male, I am more than willing to submit myself as a guinea pig so that religious people can "give" me gay and prove their claims.

That is, because I'm 101% confident that they will fail.

Zombrex · 16-02-2009 9:50am

Húrin wrote: »

If we dismissed everything that pissed us off then we would be quite ignorant. For instance, the fact that global warming is happening is something that pisses a lot of people off for various reasons. But that doesn't mean that it's legitimate to use that annoyance to close their mind to that message.

Yes because those two things (global warming and homosexuality) are the same thing :rolleyes:

You are ignoring why people "close their mind" to your religion's message. I think if the reason to believe global warming was happening was "God says so" a lot of people would close their mind to that as well

Dades · 16-02-2009 9:56am

seamus wrote: »

I am more than willing to submit myself as a guinea pig so that religious people can "give" me gay and prove their claims.

You might not be so enthusiastic when they send Ted Haggard over to your house to "give you gay". :eek:

Goduznt Xzst · 16-02-2009 2:59pm

I'd personally like for Hurin to come a'knocking. What fun that would be :rolleyes:

Me: *opens door* Good Morning!
Hurin: Is it though? Your have clearly been brainwashed by your social constructivism to wish me a good morning when in fact you can't know whether or not this morning will be good. Further, your wish for my morning to be good shows your moral universalism, a proof for the meta-ethical divine command theory.
Me: *closes door*

swiss · 16-02-2009 3:35pm

seamus wrote:

My gf came upon these a few years back outside of trinity college. The Asian girl stopped her and asked if she'd give her a hand with her assignment because she couldn't read it properly. She then had her basically reading bible passages, and it was only when the Asian girl started asking her odd questions and things like, "Who is the mother?" that she realised that this girl was just an odd bible-thumper with a focus on this "God is female too" thing.

That sounds like the same group alright, and possibly the same person as I encountered.

This has gotten me thinking about the wider context of people calling around to the door in order to push a particular agenda, whether it be to get you to vote a particular way, to buy a product or service, to get you to donate to charity, or as in this case to proselytise for a religion.

In theory, I don't have a problem with it at all, with the proviso that you can simply say "sorry, not interested" and they walk away without quibble. In reality, it is usually an interruption that you can do without as you're sitting down to watch telly, have dinner, or play left 4 dead with your mates.

Is this then something you just live with? Or would there be some merit in putting yourself on some kind of 'do not disturb' list where if you are part of an organisation that calls to peoples doors you should consult this list and respect the wishes of those who decide to opt out?

The Mad Hatter · 16-02-2009 3:46pm

swiss wrote: »

In reality, it is usually an interruption that you can do without as you're sitting down to watch telly, have dinner, or play left 4 dead with your mates.

Invite them in to play. You could run a pool on how long they'll last before they run.

(Am I stereotyping? Very sorry.)

swiss · 16-02-2009 3:55pm

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Invite them in to play. You could run a pool on how long they'll last before they run.

(Am I stereotyping? Very sorry.)

At least they could use their turn undead ability.

Mena · 16-02-2009 4:30pm

swiss wrote: »

Is this then something you just live with? Or would there be some merit in putting yourself on some kind of 'do not disturb' list where if you are part of an organisation that calls to peoples doors you should consult this list and respect the wishes of those who decide to opt out?

We used to have a good few people coming to our door, be they J.Witness or S.Sellingsomething. Was a right pain as they would always arrive at a time when we'd gone to bath, sat down to eat or whatever.

I used to have a sign up on my house on the dark continent... I put it up here for a laugh... you've all see it... "Trespassers will be shot... survivors will be shot again".

It's either worked very well and we only get a very few people at the door now (with a great conversation piece) or they just generally slowed down coming to our area.

The religious come a' knockin

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