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Transport 21 - The remake

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It is not new money bar €55k being spent on a website that should have cost €5k and this bicycle tax break being added to the figures and the timescale stretched way out to make the numbers look bigger and hence greener.

    It is a rehash of t21 and ndp ( same thing really) commitments to buses, traffic management, bus lanes in cities and the cost of the tax break on bicycles that Senator Deirdre De Burca is pimping large nowadays on expensive Seanad notepaper with free beermats thrown in .

    Once you add these all together together with a guesstimate for the bicycle tax break and stretch it out well beyond 2013 when the NDP ends and 2014 when T21 ends it can look significant .

    By adding the extra 5 years it begins to look like a lot of money.

    No doubt it will be printed on recycled (used) toilet paper when it is published in full :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    I got some time to look over this "plan"... and what can I say?

    Well, it's what I can't say that bothers me.

    I can't say that there is a cohesive and well thought-out strategy outlining the specific projects for the next few years, how they will be implemented and at what cost.

    I can't say the government is able to meet the challenges and demands of the transport sector in these difficult times (well, they couldn't even do it when they had been being handed to them but that's a different story).

    I can't even say that this tripe is even worth having a glance at. Not even for a laugh. It's not even humourous in its ineffectuality.

    Perhaps what's most depressing though is the statement on the first page by Noel Dempsey:
    This document is the result of what was one of the most extensive and informed engagements that I have ever experienced as a Minister.

    :(

    And that's the best you could shove together? Transport 21 with a bit of eco-spin and extra bicycles.

    It was absolute rubbish.

    I don't even know why I bothered to read it. Waste of my time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,303 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha unmitigated drivel from start to finish. still, I do feel some pity for you and the likes of Sponge Gob.This is likely the only place you get the chance to vent your weird and cranky ideas.
    Behave or you won't be staying very long.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I
    And that's the best you could shove together? Transport 21 with a bit of eco-spin and extra bicycles.

    I saw a couple of bullet points and realised straight off what it was. Dempsey announces everything about 6 times to make it look like it is new.

    More typical of Dempsey is this

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dempsey-snubs-eco-car-in-favour-of-merc-perk-133845.html
    Natural Resources Minister ( Noel Dempsey back then ) made his determination to replace his gas-guzzling Mercedes with a more environmentally-friendly electric hybrid widely known earlier this year.

    Mr Dempsey rejected the hybrid car when he realised the boot was too small to hold his golf clubs .

    He did not want the golf clubs seen on the back seat while at home in Meath at the weekends .

    Now THAT is what I call a ministerial priority .
    Mr Dempsey's petrol Mercedes E240 emits an astonishing 14.3 metric tonnes of greenhouse gas into the atmosphere every year, based on average annual mileage figures provided by the Government

    Dempsey himself emits even more :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I saw a couple of bullet points and realised straight off what it was. Dempsey announces everything about 6 times to make it look like it is new.

    Well what I was hoping for would be an appropiately scaled down transport strategy, outlining exactly what CAN and what CANNOT go ahead. Concrete figures, concrete facts and tough decisions outlined.

    That's what the plan should have been.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Well what I was hoping for would be an appropiately scaled down transport strategy, outlining exactly what CAN and what CANNOT go ahead. Concrete figures, concrete facts and tough decisions outlined.

    Noel and Eamon do not do the vision thing . Ryan has been the most utterly disasterous Minister of Communications in all of history ....or at least since the previous one who was Noel Dempsey .

    Why do you think this country has some of the worst and most expensive broadband in the developed world , if even available ???

    Because the strategy behind it was left to Ryan and Dempsey since 2003 , 2 clueless arrogant visionless jobsworths .

    Now they are spreading their special band of failure karma to Transport .

    God Help Us All :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Matt Cooper gave the muppet Dempsey a good roasting this evening. Fair play to Cooper-he's a journo who really won't take politician waffle at face value and bothers to research things for himself. Cooper asked him "was it really that difficult to write the software to get integrated ticketing that it has taken 4 years+ and still no delivery?". Dempsey replied "yes". Cooper also reminded Dempsey that it's a bit of a joke that a country where ONE COMPANY is reponsible for the vast bulk of public transport hadn't delivered integrated ticketing years ago. Dempsey was blaming CIE and BAC management for this and that and Cooper just asked him "who is the only shareholder in CIE?" and Dempsey says "me". He has a real nerve coming on the radio re-announcing this stuff when they've failed to deliver so much in 10 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    Dempsey was on the news at one, and Seán O'Rourke asked him was there truth to the rumours that he had a massive shouting match with Gormley and Ryan over the proposal.

    I betcha this had nothing to do with Dempsey, and more to do with the Greens trying to get ass coverage - it's a joke and knowing that it's a joke he would have wanted to keep a low profile and not attract any attention, as the whole lot of them want to at the moment

    This is bull****ty whatever ye having yourself document, and I wish they had just kept their stupid mouths shut instead of bringing back all of the wasted years of inactivity and gridlock foisted on us as a nation by their inadaquacies


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    murphaph wrote: »
    Matt Cooper gave the muppet Dempsey a good roasting this evening. Fair play to Cooper-he's a journo who really won't take politician waffle at face value and bothers to research things for himself. Cooper asked him "was it really that difficult to write the software to get integrated ticketing that it has taken 4 years+ and still no delivery?". Dempsey replied "yes". Cooper also reminded Dempsey that it's a bit of a joke that a country where ONE COMPANY is reponsible for the vast bulk of public transport hadn't delivered integrated ticketing years ago. Dempsey was blaming CIE and BAC management for this and that and Cooper just asked him "who is the only shareholder in CIE?" and Dempsey says "me". He has a real nerve coming on the radio re-announcing this stuff when they've failed to deliver so much in 10 years.

    To be honest, I think at this stage everyone knows well that it's not the software itself, the logic of which could be written by a first year comp sci student. It's Dempsey, and the DoT's political impotence that stops him dragging Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, the RPA and the private operators in to a room, locking the door, and not letting them out till they agree on a pricing structure for integrated ticketing. We don't even need smart cards - the mag stripe tickets work perfectly well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    To be honest, I think at this stage everyone knows well that it's not the software itself, the logic of which could be written by a first year comp sci student. It's Dempsey, and the DoT's political impotence that stops him dragging Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, the RPA and the private operators in to a room, locking the door, and not letting them out till they agree on a pricing structure for integrated ticketing. We don't even need smart cards - the mag stripe tickets work perfectly well.
    Exactly. The truth is that the various fiefdoms (CIE/IE/BAC/BE/RPA/DTO/DTA and last but by no means least the blasted DoT and DoF) won't cooperate to deliver what is considered a minimum in most of Europe.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by murphaph View Post
    Matt Cooper gave the muppet Dempsey a good roasting this evening. Fair play to Cooper-he's a journo who really won't take politician waffle at face value and bothers to research things for himself. Cooper asked him "was it really that difficult to write the software to get integrated ticketing that it has taken 4 years+ and still no delivery?". Dempsey replied "yes". Cooper also reminded Dempsey that it's a bit of a joke that a country where ONE COMPANY is reponsible for the vast bulk of public transport hadn't delivered integrated ticketing years ago. Dempsey was blaming CIE and BAC management for this and that and Cooper just asked him "who is the only shareholder in CIE?" and Dempsey says "me". He has a real nerve coming on the radio re-announcing this stuff when they've failed to deliver so much in 10 years.

    However...CIE delivered TOTALLY integrated Public Transport Ticketing over 40 YEARS ago.
    It was known as the Irish Rambler Ticket and was valid ON ALL CITY and PROVINCIAL BUS Services and ALL Railway Services for between 3 and 30(?) days depending on the purchase.
    It was extremely flexible,in the manner of the modern Rambler ticket as it could be used on non-consecutive days.

    However in the context of that somewhat Pathetic News-at-One interview it`s importance is that CIE already had a "Back-Office" mechanism for divvying out the Irish Rambler`s income....;)

    So Matt Cooper is dead right...put the boot in Matty.....It`s more than apparent that this Man Dempsey is not not not a sustainable resource to have in ANY Government role !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭ihatewallies


    'Dealing in reality'?
    There is no REALITY
    Only perceptions......
    Now Nostrada-mouse perceives the end of the world..............
    Others see new interesting and great opportunites......
    Good luck with your 'REALITY' Nostil-damn-us ha ha.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    Cycling, walking key to sustainable transport strategy

    TIM O'BRIEN, Irish Times
    Fri, Feb 06, 2009

    MORE THAN half a million motorists are to be persuaded to switch to more sustainable forms of transport, including walking and cycling, under the Government’s long-awaited sustainable transport strategy launched yesterday.
    The strategy – “Smarter Travel, a Sustainable Transport Future” targets mainly commuters but extends to all car-users including shoppers and parents who drive children to school.
    The 12-year timeframe to 2020 aims to cut CO2 emissions by four million tonnes.
    In Dublin , a “bus only gate” is to be installed in July and a congestion charge is now likely within three years, according to Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey.
    Where questions arise over the capacity of the public transport system, deficiencies are to be made up by improvements due under Transport 21, and increasing the effectiveness of the two State bus companies.
    In the regions, an as yet unconfirmed city – probably Galway – is to be chosen to pilot a range of measures which include co-ordinated delivery of park-and-ride facilities and quality bus lanes, walking and cycling routes and car-free zones.
    Improvements to the Bus Éireann network are to be developed to drive demand and services. However, there was bad news for regional airports, which will find it increasingly hard to get public service subventions from Government as the motorway and rail network to regional cities improves. The only exception is likely to be those serving the northwest, particularly Donegal.
    By 2020 some 10 per cent of the State’s vehicles are to be electrically powered, the plan said.
    Mr Dempsey cited a number of problems with the bus companies in terms of readable timetables, “real time information” for passengers, reliability of service and certainty of journey times, and web-based ticketing. He said these would be addressed to improve efficiency and ultimately to expand services.
    A key target, according to Mr Dempsey. was “to get kids out of mum’s car and walking, cycling or taking public transport to school”. Last year 75,000 pupils in the “Green Schools” scheme used sustainable transport: “By 2020 I want it to reach 265,000 schoolchildren right around the country,” he said.
    The Government is to set up regional “e-working centres” to cut commuting times, Minister for Energy Eamon Ryan said.
    Efficiencies would improve attractiveness and could overcome problems of declining bus passenger numbers, he said. For example, where a cross-city bus journey currently takes 40 minutes, if this could be cut to half or less, then two similar journeys could be made in the same time, delivering an equivalent efficiency of two buses.
    Integrated land use and transport planning are central to Government strategy, according to both Ministers, who stressed the need for local authorities to “buy into the plan”. But Mr Dempsey warned that while he preferred “buy in”, he would not be reluctant to enforce regulations or new legislation if this did not happen.
    He instanced cases where bus lanes came to the outskirts of towns and stopped before the centre “because councillors did not have the courage” of their convictions in designing the routes.
    Mr Dempsey said total investment would be in excess of €4 billion over the period of implementation, but that this included some crossover from Transport 21.
    Mr Ryan said he believed Mr Dempsey would enforce the strategy with rigour: “He will not only talk the talk, but walk the walk,” he said. Mr Ryan described the strategy as “the beginning of a major change. It represents a fundamental reform of our transport systems. It is the first step in changing how we move and how we live.” A cyclist, he commended the bicycle as a social mode of travel.

    © 2009 The Irish Times


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    'Dealing in reality'?
    There is no REALITY
    Only perceptions......
    Now Nostrada-mouse perceives the end of the world..............
    Others see new interesting and great opportunites......
    Good luck with your 'REALITY' Nostil-damn-us ha ha.

    No, I am telling you for a fact. Drawing lines on OS maps does not automatically translate into a unified quantum expression leading to "Sligo-Derry Community Rail". Beleive me, I have imagined myself as the man on the Monoply box many times and I still have the arse hanging out of my trousers.

    Somehow I do not think the '100 Monkeys Syndrome' applies to delivering Transport21 - unless the 100 monkeys are the officials in charge of public transport in this country throwing commuters peanuts for the last 75 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    IIMII wrote: »

    MORE THAN half a million motorists are to be persuaded to switch to more sustainable forms of transport, including walking and cycling....

    ...instead of the underground DART, Metros and Luas Lines they promised for the last 30 years and never delivered.

    When is the next general election?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Don't like the plan. Most of what's contained in it is stuff they should have been doing all along -

    Buses should be reliable, quick, with good customer service - what??? What other type of bus service is there?
    10% Electric cars - this relies on the market delivering good-sized , good performance electric cars , which is out of the Gov's control. No guarantee this will be delivered.
    Regional E-Working centres - This sounds like dot com bubble crap. Back in college, I was told about how this stuff was coming. Anyone who is able to do this, is probably already doing it - it's available where I work, for example. I don't see it becoming a bigger thing.
    Integrated land use and transport planning - Oh God, you were supposed to be doing this all along!!
    Local authorities need to “buy into the plan” - He's the bloody minister for Transport, he shouldn't be asking, he should be telling.

    A few good bits, like the bus gate and congestion charge, kids walking to school, more cycling (give us proper cycle lanes please!), less subsidies to silly airports like Waterford and Knock (I hope most of these close). The plan was derailed by too much waffle though.

    And what really worries me is how this plan may supercede the preceding one - just like Platform for Change and DRRTS, and Platform for Change and T21. The Gov needs to build T21 and keep its eye on the ball here. We should a rule: No new plans until you finish your current one!


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Transport 21's re-make will be much like the original

    squiggly-lines-pattern-green-thumb2672832.jpg

    Key:

    Light Green: Rail network
    Dark Green: Bus Network
    White: Where you want to go


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭Bards


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Don't like the plan. Most of what's contained in it is stuff they should have been doing all along -

    Buses should be reliable, quick, with good customer service - what??? What other type of bus service is there?
    10% Electric cars - this relies on the market delivering good-sized , good performance electric cars , which is out of the Gov's control. No guarantee this will be delivered.
    Regional E-Working centres - This sounds like dot com bubble crap. Back in college, I was told about how this stuff was coming. Anyone who is able to do this, is probably already doing it - it's available where I work, for example. I don't see it becoming a bigger thing.
    Integrated land use and transport planning - Oh God, you were supposed to be doing this all along!!
    Local authorities need to “buy into the plan” - He's the bloody minister for Transport, he shouldn't be asking, he should be telling.

    A few good bits, like the bus gate and congestion charge, kids walking to school, more cycling (give us proper cycle lanes please!), less subsidies to silly airports like Waterford and Knock (I hope most of these close). The plan was derailed by too much waffle though.

    And what really worries me is how this plan may supercede the preceding one - just like Platform for Change and DRRTS, and Platform for Change and T21. The Gov needs to build T21 and keep its eye on the ball here. We should a rule: No new plans until you finish your current one!

    FYI Waterford doesn't have any PSO routes


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    FYI Waterford doesn't have any PSO routes

    But has received millions in other grants and is expecting millions more despite the miniscule numbers using it. All well and good if you believe in the airport for every county approach favoured by our present Gov i suppose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭Bards


    But has received millions in other grants and is expecting millions more despite the miniscule numbers using it. All well and good if you believe in the airport for every county approach favoured by our present Gov i suppose.

    Waterford operates on a commercial basis same as Dublin, Cork & Shannon and these receive grants also. Without grants none of the airports (Except Dublin) would survive.

    By your logic there should only be one airport in the country


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    Waterford operates on a commercial basis same as Dublin, Cork & Shannon and these receive grants also. Without grants none of the airports (Except Dublin) would survive.

    By your logic there should only be one airport in the country

    Hardly commercial when they are reliant on the exchequer for any improvements wanted/needed?
    http://www.munster-express.ie/business/waterford-airport-faces-tax-and-runway-challenges/

    Ireland as a territory only needs one or two Airports of any large scale, the usual trick of duplication of resources plays well to the locals in Knock, Kerry, Galway and Waterford but having multiple tiny airports dotted around the country does no one any favours long term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭Bards


    and Cork got €160m for the new terminal building. again hardly commercial when they get handouts like that

    http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0182/S.0182.200602070009.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    If memory serves me correctly it is not that long ago that Waterford Airport had NO scheduled services to or from it. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭Bards


    If memory serves me correctly it is not that long ago that Waterford Airport had NO scheduled services to or from it. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)

    that is correct. it went from a starting position of zero to over 100,000 passengers today in a very short space of time so is commercially viable, and will only grow from strength to strength given its strategic location as being the country's closest airport to mainland europe.

    It is beign hampered by having a short runway and needs an extension to accomadte the larger jets to grow passenger numbers


    Access to/from the airport will be vastly improved when the M9 and the Waterford City Bypass come on stream.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    and Cork got €160m for the new terminal building. again hardly commercial when they get handouts like that

    http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0182/S.0182.200602070009.html

    Well no it didn't thats the problem with Gov policy, it has to raise half the construction costs itself despite being promised otherwise, meanwhile every two bit airport gets PSO routes and other generous grants despite their insignificance.

    Example:

    Waterford Airport 144k
    Kerry 145k
    Galway 270k
    Sligo 38k
    Knock 630k

    So thats 5 airports, and millions per year in PSOs and other grants.

    Cork has 3.3m passengers, Shannon a similar number, small time compared to Dublin or internationally but far and away above anything the above airports are capable of. Yet money is wasted on supporting small airports in practically every constituency. But at least it looks good for the local pols and they get the votes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Bards wrote: »
    and will only grow from strength to strength given its strategic location as being the country's closest airport to mainland europe.

    Ah ha ha ha ha, that's priceless. Implying Waterford's proximity to Europe gives it an advantage over Dublin. That's the kind of distance that is irrelevant in terms of flight.

    Tell me, airlines are beginning to lose money, BA posted huge losses today, others have too. Ryanair are cutting back services from Shannon and Dublin. Please tell me, who is going to use Waterford airport over Dublin / Shannon? Perhaps Iberia who will see the advantage of it's "strategic placing" close to Europe?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭Bards


    All I am saying is Waterford does not receive a PSO subsidy and will not be affected by the changes in transport policy vis a vis the other regional airports


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    All I am saying is Waterford does not receive a PSO subsidy and will not be affected by the changes in transport policy vis a vis the other regional airports

    But the Airports under control of the DAA are still, nominally, in the control of the state, and any funding they receive (or not in the case of Cork) is regulated by the EU for fear that it might lead to uncompetitive behaviour.

    The various micro airports like Waterford, Knock and Kerry are supposedly private enterprises yet reliant on state aid be they PSOs or grants, as i say this Governments aviation policy is literally a one for everyone in the audience. It makes no sense to handicap the states primary airports whilst keeping the smaller ones afloat.

    Actually no the only sense it makes is political sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭Bards


    But the Airports under control of the DAA are still, nominally, in the control of the state, and any funding they receive (or not in the case of Cork) is regulated by the EU for fear that it might lead to uncompetitive behaviour.

    The various micro airports like Waterford, Knock and Kerry are supposedly private enterprises yet reliant on state aid be they PSOs or grants, as i say this Governments aviation policy is literally a one for everyone in the audience. It makes no sense to handicap the states primary airports whilst keeping the smaller ones afloat.

    Actually no the only sense it makes is political sense.


    Do you actually know the difference between PSO & Grants???


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,447 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    Are there actually going to be enough electric cars produced in the whole world in the next ten years to meet this demand?
    How many were produced last year? Wasn't it something like 15,000? So that means at current production levesl, the entire world's electric car population will be in Ireland in 2020. Give me strength :rolleyes:


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