Transport 21 - The remake

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

Do you actually know the difference between PSO & Grants???

PSO & Grants = Money

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

PSO & Grants = Money

No

PSO subsidises unprofitable routes. I.E ones that are not commercially viable and are payable directly to the airline

Grants are monies paid to the airport to provide necessary infrastrucutre and are non-recurring

Calina

Point of information: PSO support is paid to the airlines, and capital grants such as they may or may not exist to the airports. I'm sure Aer Arann are very happy to be in receipt of PSO monies for Sligo and Donegal, as I believe they are, and Ryanair for Kerry. The airports get passenger charges irrespective of the grant to the airline.

_________________

That being said, of more interest to the average person on the street is probably this concept that they'll be walking or cycling to work in a bright new future. This fascinates me. I know people who travel 30 miles to work. Are they all supposed to walk or cycle? Do people in the department of transport realise that a lot of people working in Dublin live miles out in places that don't have public transport and that where train stations might exist, eg on the Kildare line, they are not necessarily anywhere near where people live?

We had feeder buses before. I remember DART feeder buses from 20 years ago. What happened to them? As for the outer orbital bus routes, is this a cheap-ass Metro West thing?

We need decent public transport, not guilt trips telling us to cycle instead of taking the car.

Judgement Day

I'm sorry to rub salt in the wound about Waterford 'International' Airport - so close to Europe it's almost on the Continent - but another memory I have from a long time back was the accusation by the airport authorities that the then adjacent aviation museum was taking business away from it! I kid you not. Can't you just imagine a family arriving at the airport to go on holiday and opting to visit some old wreck of a DC10 at the museum instead?

It is not that long ago that the future of Shannon and Cork were even in doubt so where does that leave Knock, Waterford and Farranfore in the current dire economic downturn?

Bards

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm sorry to rub salt in the wound about Waterford 'International' Airport - so close to Europe it's almost on the Continent - but another memory I have from a long time back was the accusation by the airport authorities that the then adjacent aviation museum was taking business away from it! I kid you not. Can't you just imagine a family arriving at the airport to go on holiday and opting to visit some old wreck of a DC10 at the museum instead?

never heard of this. please can we have some facts to back this claim up

Judgement Day

No facts I'm afraid I did say it was a memory! I do keep extensive archives of newspaper cuttings etc going back to the 1970s but mainly to do with railways not regional airports. It does not take away from the argument that regional airports have little or no future in Ireland.

Heroditas

Calina wrote: »

That being said, of more interest to the average person on the street is probably this concept that they'll be walking or cycling to work in a bright new future. This fascinates me. I know people who travel 30 miles to work. Are they all supposed to walk or cycle? Do people in the department of transport realise that a lot of people working in Dublin live miles out in places that don't have public transport and that where train stations might exist, eg on the Kildare line, they are not necessarily anywhere near where people live?

These dribbling morons in charge of the country will spin the line of the "smart economy" and how we will all be able to work at home with the excellent broadband and digital infrastructure that will eventually be rolled out ... in 2250 or whenever.. :rolleyes:

Calina

Judgement Day wrote: »

No facts I'm afraid I did say it was a memory! I do keep extensive archives of newspaper cuttings etc going back to the 1970s but mainly to do with railways not regional airports. It does not take away from the argument that regional airports have little or no future in Ireland.

No but it sure as hell doesn't add to it either. If you're going to use things like that as a point to support your argument, I'd like it if you could back it up. Otherwise, it just looks a bit irrational to be honest.

Waterford Airport, I was there once, a long time ago. It's not a big airport. If it's growing passenger numbers, given its proximity to Cork, they're not doing badly. Whether that will continue, however, is not hugely relevant to the question of day to day public transport. I'm more interested in how I get to work while I still have a job, as it is.

Calina

Heroditas wrote: »

These dribbling morons in charge of the country will spin the line of the "smart economy" and how we will all be able to work at home with the excellent broadband and digital infrastructure that will eventually be rolled out ... in 2250 or whenever.. :rolleyes:

Look, I got out of translation school almost 15 years ago in the days of 9600 baud modems or whatever they were then. They were discussing the idea of the Green Dream then which was the interconnected home office.

In any case, the culture here means a lot of companies won't buy into the working from home thing because they don't trust their employees.

we still need to get to work.

On an unrelated subject, can anyone tell me whether the Ministers pay BIK for their Mercs? If they don't, then they shouldn't be using them for anything other than ministerial duty, ie, the question of golf clubs fitting into them would be moot, in my view. If that story is true.

Euro_Kraut

Calina wrote: »

That being said, of more interest to the average person on the street is probably this concept that they'll be walking or cycling to work in a bright new future. This fascinates me. I know people who travel 30 miles to work. Are they all supposed to walk or cycle? Do people in the department of transport realise that a lot of people working in Dublin live miles out in places that don't have public transport and that where train stations might exist, eg on the Kildare line, they are not necessarily anywhere near where people live?

We had feeder buses before. I remember DART feeder buses from 20 years ago. What happened to them? As for the outer orbital bus routes, is this a cheap-ass Metro West thing?

We need decent public transport, not guilt trips telling us to cycle instead of taking the car.

The new Smarter Travel Policy does not envisgage people cycling 30kms to work! The target for cycling are those who live withing 5kms for their place of work and school. In particular schools! Most kids do live with cycling distance to their schools in fairness (not all but most in urban areas do). If we can minimize the impact of the morning school run we would be a long way towards minimizing traffic congestion. Proper cycling facilites are required first though. The first ever National Cycling Policy will be published soon and this hopefully will address this issue.

You are right that proper public transport is required too. If you read Smarter Travel there are 41 different action design to make Ireland transport patterns more sustainable. Better public transport is on element, walking and cycling is another, better planning laws is another.

It is a multi-pronged approach - the likes of which we have rarely seen from this Government.

Godge

Judgement Day wrote: »

It is not that long ago that the future of Shannon and Cork were even in doubt so where does that leave Knock, Waterford and Farranfore in the current dire economic downturn?

Shannon is as good as dead. The Limerick bypass/tunnel is being built to the south of Limerick adding twenty more minutes to the road journey from outer Dublin/commuter suburbs than a bypass at Killaloe would have done. that was the last chance for shannon as the population won't support the airport.

Farranfore only works because have you tried the train to Tralee or the road to Killarney from anywhere?

The rest - Sligo, Waterford - were never viable.

IIMII

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

The new Smarter Travel Policy does not envisgage people cycling 30kms to work! The target for cycling are those who live withing 5kms for their place of work and school. In particular schools! Most kids do live with cycling distance to their schools in fairness (not all but most in urban areas do). If we can minimize the impact of the morning school run we would be a long way towards minimizing traffic congestion. Proper cycling facilites are required first though. The first ever National Cycling Policy will be published soon and this hopefully will address this issue.

You are right that proper public transport is required too. If you read Smarter Travel there are 41 different action design to make Ireland transport patterns more sustainable. Better public transport is on element, walking and cycling is another, better planning laws is another.

It is a multi-pronged approach - the likes of which we have rarely seen from this Government.

None of it will happen, apart from the car-pooling website. It's bull****, not an approach. The Greens are in trouble for welching on public transport, and they are trying to spin their way out.

Here's the pre-sellout Greens. I've marked in bold my favourite lie, a subject they have been silent on since entering government:

[article] FF legacy of ‘bribery and corruption’, say Greens
Ireland.com, Last updated: 25-03-06, 16:03
Green Party leader Trevor Sargent today launched a stinging attack on the Fianna Fail saying the country could no longer afford to be ruled by the current Government.
Speaking at annual conference in Kilkenny he said that that for all the Taoiseach’s talk of community values, the reality was that the poor were getting poorer and developers were the big winners.
They in turn bankrolled Fianna Fail and their Progressive Democrat “poodles”, he said. Land rezoning profits which could be diverted to provide new communities with basic facilities were instead lining the pockets of wealthy speculators, he said.
“Under this government you’d be more likely to get a pub and a bookies shop than the amenities so many communities are crying out for,” he said. Mr Sargent added: “Bribery, corruption and bad planning are a legacy of Fianna Fail domination in Government, locally and nationally.”
Greens in power would implement the recommendations of the Kenny Report which proposed a windfall tax on development land - a proposals based on the principle that communities, rather than developers, should benefit from rezoning.
He said his party would build 10,000 social housing units a year until the waiting lists were cleared and would double insulation standards in every new home - giving families warmer places in which to live and saving them money at the same time.
The Government had spent billions on commuter motorways which had failed, he said during an attack on transport policy.
“This is a government which values the volume of construction ahead of good design. This is a Government that has spent four times more on new roads than on new public transport,” said Mr Sargent.
If ministers had taken the Green’s advice and switched the spending ratio around, there would already be a Western rail corridor linking Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Cork.
There would also be a commuter rail service to Navan and “an extensive light rail system throughout the Dublin area that actually joins up,” he said.
Earlier the party chairman, John Gormley, told the conference they needed to embark on a “myth-busting campaign” to deal with government attacks on them ahead of the election. He said he agreed with Michael McDowell that a smaller party would play a pivotal role in the next election.
It would be up to the voters to choose whether it was the PDs again or the Greens. And dismissing Mr McDowell’s description of them as ’sandal wearers’ he said they would always prefer sandals to jackboots.

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Ireland: Green, Green Grass of Home safe territory for Flanagan
www.meathchronicle.ie/News/green-green-grass-of-home-safe-territory-for-flanagan-684658.html
FOLLOWING the canvass with a Green Party candidate is a vastly different experience to being out on the hustings with some of the bigger parties, as there is a distinct lack of razzmatazz and more real discussion on issues concerning the voters. There were no loudhailers, candidate theme songs or large crowds when Brian Flanagan, the Meath West Green Party candidate, went canvassing in Aylesbury Lodge, Navan, last Thursday night, but his quiet, personal style of canvassing certainly got a warm reception on the doorstep. “Ah, you’re the Green man. You’re the first one we’ve had on our doorstep. The Fianna Fail boys are hiding,” one man remarked. At the first house, a young man was impressed with the Green Party’s interest in improving public transport and particularly its pledge to bring the provision of the rail link from Dublin to Navan forward. He explained that he took the bus to Dublin every day and the journey took nearly an hour longer than necessary. He told the candidate that the hospital situation in Navan was a bit of a disaster and asked how elderly Navan people, particularly those without their own transport, were supposed to make their way across to the hospital in Drogheda. He was also concerned about crime and anti-social behaviour and remarked that the only time he ever saw a garda in the area was when there was a football match at nearby Pairc Tailteann. Brian Flanagan, who lives in Navan himself, was unusual among politicians as he was out canvassing on his own. The Green Party machine in Meath is a small one and they don’t have the big budgets enjoyed by some of the larger parties. “I have party supporters out with me at weekends and some evenings, but we cannot all manage to get out every night,” he said. In ways, this seemed to work for him, as householders were prepared to stand, listen and talk to him, because he wasn’t followed by a large and loud posse. On the hustings with other candidates can seem like a test of speed and endurance as you rush from door to door at impossible speeds, but when Brian Flanagan spoke to voters on the doorstep, he spent a considerable time with each voter. One woman told him that her main issues were the amount of building going on in Navan and how various projects had got planning permission. She described the new Solstice Arts Centre as “the ugliest thing” and was angry at the proposals to develop the Fair Green. She expressed her disgust at the high-rise buildings going up in Navan, including the new development on the old Crannac factory site. Crime and anti-social behaviour was a topic that kept coming up on the doorsteps. One man told of walking home from the town centre one night at midnight. “I walked home from the Newgrange (Hotel) and I was afraid of my life, there were a lot of people about and there was a lot of tension,” he said. Brian Flanagan said the railway line, the future of Navan Hospital, crime and the Fair Green were among the topics raised by most people he met during canvassing. Others have told him of the dreadful problems they face getting school places for their children and have condemned the lack of facilities in growing areas of Navan, such as Johnstown. He had also been pleased to find that a lot of people were interested in eco-friendly technology and making their homes greener. Shortly before he was joined on the canvass by the Meath Chronicle last week, he spoke a man who was anxious to install solar panels in his home. At one of the last houses of the evening, Flanagan came across a man who had voted Green in the past and was sympathetic to the party’s policies. “My one doubt this time is that I’m afraid if I vote for you, you’ll end up going into government with Fianna Fail,” he said. The candidate, however, seemed to convince him to give him his number one when he explained that they were going into the election on their own ‘Green’ agenda and would not be doing business with anyone if they didn’t take that agenda on board.

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The problem here isn't Fianna Fáil. The problem is that the Greens got elected by promising white, and have instead delivered black

AlekSmart

You are right that proper public transport is required too. If you read Smarter Travel there are 41 different action design to make Ireland transport patterns more sustainable. Better public transport is on element, walking and cycling is another, better planning laws is another.

Having spent c.€60 Million on the O Connell St Integrated Area Plan why were Dublin Bus allowed to expand its already considerable presence on the street ?

The essence of the IAP was PEDESTRIAN based improvements to the Street a concept now totally frustrated by vehicular intrusion of both Buses and Taxi`s both modes contributing greatly to a very dangerous street environment.

The other inescapable issue we face is Weather.....no matter what way we look at it mainstream cycling for six months is largely an untenable prospect unless you are a dyed in the wool enthusiast.

Oh,and don`t forget to wave....!

ihatewallies

Nostradamus wrote: »

No, I am telling you for a fact. Drawing lines on OS maps does not automatically translate into a unified quantum expression leading to "Sligo-Derry Community Rail". Beleive me, I have imagined myself as the man on the Monoply box many times and I still have the arse hanging out of my trousers.

Somehow I do not think the '100 Monkeys Syndrome' applies to delivering Transport21 - unless the 100 monkeys are the officials in charge of public transport in this country throwing commuters peanuts for the last 75 years.

Are you well?

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

No

PSO subsidises unprofitable routes. I.E ones that are not commercially viable and are payable directly to the airline

Grants are monies paid to the airport to provide necessary infrastrucutre and are non-recurring

Thanks for the lesson Bards but you miss my point. Both PSO and Grant monies are coming from the same place and thats the Exchequer. This country has a disjointed Airport policy. We don't need PSOs for places like Galway and Kerry which already have decent road and rail connections to Dublin and we don't need to encourage disjointed Airport development like Waterford or Knock whose potential is limited. If they are self sufficient then let them develop, but as the article i linked earlier showed, These type of Airports are reliant on Public funding for any capital projects. That needs to be stopped.

Calina

in theory you need to understand that where the money is going to is what's important, not where it's coming from. In otherwords, PSO is more of a subsidy to the airline than to the airport and its based on passenger carried. Additionally, it's there as a regional support rather than an airport support.

That's one point. The other point is because of screwed up misunderstandings involving ideology, we spend more time ensuring there's "fair" competition than we do on making sure that the infrastructure we have works. Even if you got rid of all the regional airports and improved road access to Dublin Airport from most of the country, you still would have people screaming for the building of a second airport in Dublin to "promote competition". Net result, even leaving the past week aside, Dublin Airport, comparatively speaking, is not the most efficient airport for a city of its size compared to its peers say in Brussels and Munich.

In any case, absent a viable spatial strategy which, because of the tribalistic nature of many people in Ireland is highly unlikely, a viable plan for air travel within the island is unlikely, so we'll get hodge podge. The regional airports would not be necessary if, in fact, we had a viable rail system that hooked into Dublin and Cork airports. The truth is public transport is shoestring driven here - how little can we get away with. And I have to say I don't see much changing in the short term.

invincibleirish

Hard to disagree with your points Calina. But given times we're in a re-evaluation is needed on all the things you mentioned like planning, infrastructure etc., i'm confident this will happen sooner rather then later. but from my frequent readings of local newspapers like what i linked to, people are still thinking that their particular pet project is still viable and worthy.

Hopefully economic recession will make people wise up to bigger picture, resources are finite and pols/interest groups need to be told their runway in the sticks is not a priority. If any of the regional airports can't stand on their own two feet commerically without PSOs or grants then so be it.

DWCommuter

Bards

You mentioned that the M9 and Waterford City bypass will make Waterford Airport more accessible. That's not quite true is it? For those not familiar with this airport it is accessed via a very poor network of roads. The aforementioned improvements are nowhere near it. This particular airport is not supported by existing or planned transport infrastructure projects.

As for this thread...........

Told you so.:D

Bards

DWCommuter wrote: »

Bards

You mentioned that the M9 and Waterford City bypass will make Waterford Airport more accessible. That's not quite true is it? For those not familiar with this airport it is accessed via a very poor network of roads. The aforementioned improvements are nowhere near it. This particular airport is not supported by existing or planned transport infrastructure projects.

As for this thread...........

Told you so.:D

New airport road opened last summer, which connects to new Outer Ring Road 2+2, which in turn connects to new City Bypass & Cable Stay Bridge( Dual Carriageway) which in turn connects to New M9 (Motorway). What part of this road network is substandard?? I suggest your facts are substandard

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4639&Itemid=10366&ed=455

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/passenger-numbers-at-waterford-airport-rose-by-25-per-cent-in-2008/

Nermal

Bards wrote: »

By your logic there should only be one airport in the country

You say that like it's a crazy idea that one airport should suffice for 5 million people...

Cool Mo D

I'm pretty sure we only need three airports - Dublin, Cork and Shannon can easily cover the whole country. People in Donegal can use Derry airport.

DWCommuter

Bards wrote: »

New airport road opened last summer, which connects to new Outer Ring Road 2+2, which in turn connects to new City Bypass & Cable Stay Bridge( Dual Carriageway) which in turn connects to New M9 (Motorway). What part of this road network is substandard?? I suggest your facts are substandard

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4639&Itemid=10366&ed=455

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/passenger-numbers-at-waterford-airport-rose-by-25-per-cent-in-2008/

I stand corrected, but in future try to do it with some degree of integrity instead of willy waving bravado.

D'Peoples Voice

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0324/1224243317036.html

TIM O'BRIEN

THE GOVERNMENT has ordered a halt to planned spending on almost 80 national road-building schemes, worth billions of euro, until further notice.

The instruction was issued to the National Roads Authority late last month. Under it, the NRA is forbidden from spending on all capital projects which are not already under way, unless each new project is individually sanctioned by the Department of Finance.

The curbs will affect 78 major construction projects in the NRA Roads Programme, 55 of them national primary roads and 23 national secondary roads.

The curb will also extend to road maintenance where contracts for items such as road resurfacing will also need to be pre-approved by the Department of Finance.

A spokesman for the NRA said the authority was “very concerned”, particularly as a lot of current inter-urban schemes were ahead of schedule, and would be completed this year.

Chris_533976

I guess that was kind of expected However, interesting to note on their list that the four new PPP schemes (N17/18, N11/25, M20) are NOT mentioned.

Nostradamus

ihatewallies wrote: »

Are you well?

Bit oh a chest cold, but grand more or less. *cough*

Sligo-Derry rail link will cost €640m


Published Date: 25 March 2009
By Staff reporter


An estimated 640 million euro would be needed to connect Derry to Sligo by rail, a new report has revealed.
The report by national sustainable transport campaigner and researcher, Brian Guckian, has found that 160 million euro per annum over four years would build the Republic's side of the Sligo to Derry line.

The estimate includes for the design, construction and operation of the link which, the report states, would also generate “very significant direct and indirect employment” for the region.

The report details that the investment would come from a review of capital investment priorities in the Dublin Government’s Transport 21 programme and from a re-designation of the current Atlantic Road Corridor as a Sustainable Transport Corridor.

Mr. McGuckian said that this would unlock resources, “at no net cost to the Exchequer”, that would complete the current Western Rail Corridor and facilitate its onward extension through the North West.

Mr. Guckian added that preliminary work on the rail link, including outline route alignments, was completed last year.

He further stated that there would be ”considerable scope” for local procurement of permanent way materials and the establishment of a concrete sleeper manufacturing plant in the region to service the works.

He added that as well as providing modern, sustainable passenger and freight transport for the NorthWest, the route would also have extremely high scenic amenity, with “significant tourism benefits. A feasibility study, currently being undertaken by the local councils in the North West region, would be studied very carefully,’’ he said.

Judgement Day

I hear the sound of squadrons of flying pigs overhead. What are these people on? Both Sligo and Derry will be lucky to hold on to their existing rail links without building this nonsense.

Gruffalo

640 million, shur it would be a bargain at twice the price.

I could see value in a future link from Letterkenny to Derry but from Derry to Sligo?

dowlingm

too embarrassed to put a proper byline on it

crocro

Yes it is imperative that this vital rail link is built at once. 640m is cheap given the huge number of people who need to commute between derry and sligo each day. As it stands it can take 90 minutes to complete this arduous 140km journey along empty roads. Lets run three trains a day with a dozen passengers on each. The region will be transformed and a great injustice to the people of the west will be set to rights.

fcuking marvellous idea, brian. looking forward to the next already.

paulm17781

You're all forgetting the resources it would unlock.