What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://www.ifpa.ie/eng/Info/Fact-sheets/Emergency-Contraception

Yea, that's the point I was making.

There's other data for 12 hours, too, which is the optimal time.

But I always advise people to aim for at least the 24 hour point.

nacho libre wrote: »

his/ her view seems entrenchant to you and extreme beacuse it's the clashing of irreconcilable viewpoints, some people, like this poster, view abortion as murder, therefore from their perspective there should be no choice involved- it's black and white no matter the circumstances

from your perspective you don't see abortion as murder therefore it's up to the individual to decide what to do.

Not sure if it is as black and white no matter the circumstances.

Remember, there is a third moral position that allows for the killing of one human being in certain circumstances. This might be for the greater good (e.g. war) or because it values one human being over another (e.g. a viable adult is more important than a non-viable foetus), or because for some reason a human being has forfeited their right to life (e.g. capital punishment) or to help/save them (e.g. modern euthanasia or historical burning of witches - which was seen as a means of redeeming their immortal souls).

In that moral framework, the debate of whether the foetus is a person or not is irrelevant. Killing it may be regrettable, but preferable to the alternative.

nacho libre wrote: »

his/ her view seems entrenchant to you and extreme beacuse it's the clashing of irreconcilable viewpoints, some people, like this poster, view abortion as murder, therefore from their perspective there should be no choice involved- it's black and white no matter the circumstances

from your perspective you don't see abortion as murder therefore it's up to the individual to decide what to do.

If this thread was about abortion and it's rights and wrongs, then this would really be the important point to make.

I don't know how people can abort a foetus.

But there are reasonable people who share the opposite opinion.

I doubt people will ever reach a consensus.

ntlbell wrote: »

so you think it's ok to have a convenently average time when we end a life?

do you know the differences between the 23rd and 24th week?

if you're unhappy at 24 why are you happy with 23?

I am personally not happy with it. In my opinion if a woman waited that long she probably doesn't really want an abortion (that is of course if she is not pressured by partner/family/friends/church).
Being pregnant in not very good circumstances can be pretty overwhelming.

However, I also realise that even though I think abortion shouldn't happen quite that late, there might be circumstances when it might be necessary.

e.g. woman wanted to terminate all along but was pressured into not doing it.

or woman finds out her future child will have a serious and potentially life threatening birth defect.

You see, unlike you, I realise that there might be different circumstances and people are not all like me.

The Corinthian wrote: »

The right to drink is not exactly on a par with the right to life, and as such I'd question that you can apply the same logic in both cases.

No it is not.
It was an example for picking a number.

Laws need to be well defined, they can't exactly say "well, it should be A, but it maybe B or C it is kind of complicated".

Number of weeks needed to be picked, I'm sure there were reasons and a committee of qualified people formed, they didn't just flip for it.

Not saying it's perfect, just that's how it works.

So I take it women consent to being raped and contraception never fails. Pretty black and white attitude you have there mate

hence why I said about being mature enough to have sex and living with the responsibilites of their actions. In addition, as I said,

despite the horrific circumstances surrounding it. But all aborting it would do is kill the baby so now two people's rights have been violated.

Axel you're just spouting pro-choice/abortion arguments that have been heard and refuted 100s of times.

Would you honestly have a rape victim jailed just because she couldn't bear to carry her attacker's child?

is it not 1/2 of her Karotype ?

I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should she have to go through that, effectively ruining her life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing her for his crime.

I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should thebaby have to go through that, effectively ruining thebaby's life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing thebaby for his crime.

I agree with 24 weeks threshold for terminations.

So exactly 15415200 seconds from conception the fetus magically becomes a full human ? Care to explain?

Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)
Abortion is necessary for some people, and when its the right choice then there is no regrets

Well if its not birth control what is it then ? They are eliminating the birth of the child, ergo birthcontrol.

Abortion is rarely necessary, directly it would rarely be so. Lots of people do things which are wrong with no regrets, lack of regrets does not make it right.

Branding people murderers and comparing abortion to shooting someone is nonsensical.

if you belive that the fetus is a full human being then it is a logical step to compare it to murder. Calling them murders and shunning them is not exactly a good thing either though.

The pregnancy could be seen as a continuation of the rape which ruins her life.

Pregnacy is not a disease, likening it to rape is disguting.

The circumstances are of Paramount importance and of even more importance is your COMPASSION, for these people as that will dictate how you treat them. If you have "branded" these ladies are murder's and uncaring monsters flushing foetus then it's rather hard to feel compassion for them, but these are people and cannot all be filed away under a common blanket as every woman and every circumstance is different and you are shutting the door to help and options blindly to them all.

Sadly your view is the law of this country, I would argue that if we had more compassion for people it might not be.

Thankfully the state sees that it is important to be compassionate to the rape victims child who is totally innocent of the matter. Punishing the innocent can never be justified.

At 23 weeks, six days and 23 hours it's just cells.

we are all 'just cells'

I think this is the time that the nervous system develops. That was the approach taken

The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop at week 3 of gestation.

In addition many bodily sytstems develop thoughout the childs childhood. Saying that the child is not fully developed would mean that killing 10 year olds is ok as they have not reached adult-hood.

That is something which is currently under review in the UK and in other countries esp as neo natal care for premature babies see those 'born' at 22 weeks having a vast amount of medical intervention to keep the 'baby' alive.

Thaedydal - it is a baby. It is born and is alive. I dont see why you put the word baby and born in single quotations as if to imply that the baby is not actually a baby. Then what is it ? Is it just a clump of cells like the rest of us. Basically the pro-choice argument is that the mothers has the choice to kill the baby because it's inside her. Regardless of where a growing baby is placed no one has the right to kill another.

Ideally we should have better access to it and to all contraception and contraception knowledge to prevent unwanted pregnancy. An ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure.

not according to studies done in asia. Also look at the uk - they've gone hellbent on contraception and safe sex the past few years but the number of unwanted pregnancies & abortions has gone up.

Because it is not. Not yet. It has a potential to become one.

yes but its a human foetus which is the point. People still call toddlers babies. Its not a potential toddler, its a human in the baby stage which, all things going well and barring the child being killed, should develop into a toddler and so forth until s/he becomes an adult.

CathyMoran wrote: »

What difference does wanting and not wanting a baby make to weather a baby is a baby or not?

If you want a baby it is an emotional matter. Emotionally you can call things whatever you feel like.

You can call the planet Mother Earth but it doesn't make it sentient.
But if it is for you - there's nothing wrong with that.

However, if you are speaking in general terms, it is important to come away from personal experiences and emotions and try to consider things in a more objective way.

While it might be unclear with current advances in medicine whether 22, 23, 24 weeks is an acceptable threshhold, it is clear that at 4 weeks gestation it is not a 'baby' in a sense a newborn is.

Phototoxin wrote: »

hence why I said about being mature enough to have sex and living with the responsibilites of their actions. In addition, as I said,


Axel you're just spouting pro-choice/abortion arguments that have been heard and refuted 100s of times.


is it not 1/2 of her Karotype ?


I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should thebaby have to go through that, effectively ruining thebaby's life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing thebaby for his crime.



So exactly 15415200 seconds from conception the fetus magically becomes a full human ? Care to explain?


Well if its not birth control what is it then ? They are eliminating the birth of the child, ergo birthcontrol.

Abortion is rarely necessary, directly it would rarely be so. Lots of people do things which are wrong with no regrets, lack of regrets does not make it right.

if you belive that the fetus is a full human being then it is a logical step to compare it to murder. Calling them murders and shunning them is not exactly a good thing either though.



Pregnacy is not a disease, likening it to rape is disguting.


Thankfully the state sees that it is important to be compassionate to the rape victims child who is totally innocent of the matter. Punishing the innocent can never be justified.



we are all 'just cells'



The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop at week 3 of gestation.

In addition many bodily sytstems develop thoughout the childs childhood. Saying that the child is not fully developed would mean that killing 10 year olds is ok as they have not reached adult-hood.



Thaedydal - it is a baby. It is born and is alive. I dont see why you put the word baby and born in single quotations as if to imply that the baby is not actually a baby. Then what is it ? Is it just a clump of cells like the rest of us. Basically the pro-choice argument is that the mothers has the choice to kill the baby because it's inside her. Regardless of where a growing baby is placed no one has the right to kill another.

not according to studies done in asia. Also look at the uk - they've gone hellbent on contraception and safe sex the past few years but the number of unwanted pregnancies & abortions has gone up.


yes but its a human foetus which is the point. People still call toddlers babies. Its not a potential toddler, its a human in the baby stage which, all things going well and barring the child being killed, should develop into a toddler and so forth until s/he becomes an adult.

Relax and have a cup of tea. I gave my explanation for 24 weeks earlier. If you have any questions after it let me know.

Phototoxin wrote: »

The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop at week 3 of gestation.

What? Where did you get that?

Week 3: Implantation

The zygote — by this time made up of about 500 cells — is now known as a blastocyst. When it reaches your uterus, the blastocyst will burrow into the uterine wall for nourishment. The placenta, which will nourish your baby throughout the pregnancy, also begins to form.
By the end of this week, you may be celebrating a positive pregnancy test.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112


or


Weeks 3-4 - Gestational Age (Fetal Age 2 weeks)

Development
The earliest change that can be seen through a vaginal ultrasound at this time will be the “decidual reaction” which is the thickening of the endometrium. The endometrium lining thickens as the blastocyst burrows into it. This cannot always be detected by ultrasound—sometimes it may take a special eye or very good equipment to see this “reaction” in the endometrium lining.
*A key fact to remember when using ultrasounds is that a transvaginal ultrasound can detect development in the uterus about a week earlier than a transabdominal ultrasound.


http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/earlyfetaldevelopment.htm