What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

Nevyn

Phototoxin wrote: »

false logic. It depends how abortion is defined in the law and what the pill itself does.

The definition of abortion and pregnancy which I gave is the definition in Irish law.

The emergency contraceptive pill or m.a.p. which is prescribed in this country under Irish law is not an abortifcant.

Phototoxin wrote: »

solution for abortionist - abort the abortionist? Ya know inject caustic solution to them or cut them up and vacuum up the pieces...(though most abortions are not doen this way I think)

Why don't you go research and find out instead of assuming and spouting drivel uninformed opinion ?

Phototoxin wrote: »

Unlawful abortionists should be stripped of medical license (if any), possibly charged with GBH too.

GBH against whom, the woman or the fetus ?

johnnyskeleton

Phototoxin wrote: »

false logic. It depends how abortion is defined in the law and what the pill itself does.

Abortion is procuring a miscarriage.

Phototoxin wrote: »

not the babys fault. I'm mentally ill, I cannot handle the truama of looking at 6 year old boys, is it therefore ok that I kill 6 year olds ? No because it is not their fault and I should not take it out on them.

It's more because abortion is seen as a personal right of the mother, the child's personal rights only kick in at a later stage. Interestingly enough though (well, I think it's interesting), there is an old legal defence to murder of infanticide, whereby if a mother kills her child within the first year of it's life it is not considered murder. Don't forget that it is society, not any innate sense of right or wrong, which makes the law.

Phototoxin wrote: »

She should be given support and if she doenst want the child should be adopted. Part of the problem is society where in our pseudo-catholic society people are judgemental about single mothers and anything to do with sex.

To be fair, a greater part of the problem is that adopting a child is not that easy, and for many, an abortion is preferable to an adoption.

Phototoxin wrote: »

In addition it is unfar that the rapist will probably be out in 7 years or soemthing. Life imprisonment, being shagged up the bum by butch mc hardy might make others reconsider.

While imprisonment is a very poor deterrent for violent crime anyway, it is an even worse deterrent for rape. [plug]All this will and more be discussed in the crime & criminology forum, coming to a board near you soon[/plug]. I would also argue that human punishments for crimes are never fair, they are just practical.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Unlawful abortionists should be stripped of medical license (if any), possibly charged with GBH too.

Keeping abortion illegal, but not prosecuting anyone for it, is a typically Irish solution. I would be extremely wary of punishing doctors who procure abortions for humanitarian (rather than money making) reasons. Also, GBH is no longer an offence.

The_Minister

I would imagine that most people want to jail the abortion providers.

axel rose

wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem :rolleyes:. Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

axel rose

Cathy, I read your post on the parenting board and I am so sorry for what you are going through. I really wish you the best of luck for the next time.

People are different Cathy you were pregnant, are in a loving supportive relationship and want a baby-Not everyone finds themselves in this position. Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)
Abortion is necessary for some people, and when its the right choice then there is no regrets. Of three people I know that had terminations they had no regrets. The decision wasnt easy for them but they are still sure it was right for them.

axel rose

em did I imagine cathymorans post?

CathyMoran

Sorry, I found it too painful to post and deleted it...

SeekUp

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

But if it's not a pregnancy yet (hence the would-be), then she hasn't done anything wrong.

Good question, OP . . . there's so much heated debate about the legality of abortion, I'd bet that many of us had never really gotten so far as the punishment for someone who makes this choice.

Not that I have an answer, of course . . . :rolleyes:

axel rose

Ah cathymoran I didnt mean to upset you.

I just hope that next time it will all work out for you. ....God I dont know what else to say.

CathyMoran

axel rose wrote: »

wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem :rolleyes:. Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

I agree that you have to be in a situation to understand it - I was in a loving relationship when I got pregnant and I loved my baby from the moment I knew of its existence - being pregnant throws up all sorts of emotions, not wanting that baby must be very upsetting, even more so when your hormones are in termoil from the pregnancy...not a good place to be. I still cant agree with abortion though, these women need help to see their options...my husband is adopted and I am so very proud that his mummy went through the 9 months so that he could have a better life. It should never be the woman who has the abortion who is punished, only the people who do it.

axel rose

Its different strokes for different folks Cathymoran. I am always brought back to the x case every time the rights and wrongs of abortion are debated. She was just a child who had no control to what happened to her.
Its such an emotive topic and that is why I dont think that its possible to be completely black and white on the issue.

I would imagine that many women go into denial mode and just cant consider adoption. I really think that adoption is by far the most difficult choice for women emotionally and commend any woman who can do it.

Phototoxin

GBH against whom, the woman or the fetus ?

the child who is in the fetal stage of development. Also didn't realise GBH wasn't a crime here. Aggrivated assault or whatever the equivilant is if we're not going down the murder/25-life route.

I would imagine that most people want to jail the abortion providers.

for what though ? making lots of money? =p
Where its legal they make loads. And if its illegal I doubt they would work openly. Where its illegal they put womens health at risk so jail them for endangering women ? (assuming you dont think the fetus has rights ofc)

Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

having a child is not a punishment. Killing a baby is punishing the baby before its born.

Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)

Theres a option called 'not having sex' or alternatively another thing called 'contraception'. However if people have sex then one of the possible outcomes is a pregancy and they should, as people mature enough to decide about sex, take that into consideration and not take that out on the child.

She was just a child who had no control to what happened to her.

So was her child despite the horrific circumstances surrounding it. But all aborting it would do is kill the baby so now two people's rights have been violated.

jill_valentine

This thread is gonna produce a skewed picture of opinions on the wider issue of whether abortion is right or wrong; I'm pro-choice, so I've got no real opinion about the penalty for illegal abortions.

axel rose

Phototoxin wrote: »

Theres a option called 'not having sex' or alternatively another thing called 'contraception'. However if people have sex then one of the possible outcomes is a pregancy and they should, as people mature enough to decide about sex, take that into consideration and not take that out on the child.

.

So I take it women consent to being raped and contraception never fails. Pretty black and white attitude you have there mate.

Acacia

ntlbell wrote: »

Yup.

She could have the baby and give it up for adoption etc, the baby didn't rape her and beat her to an inch of her life why should the unborn be murdered?

The only situation I'd consider no jail time is where the mother's life is at risk if she has the baby

Would you honestly have a rape victim jailed just because she couldn't bear to carry her attacker's child?

I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should she have to go through that, effectively ruining her life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing her for his crime.

It's not as easy as saying ''oh, just have it adopted''. The woman would still have to carry and give birth to a child she doesn't want and has no choice in having. And live with the fact that there is a connection to her rapist out there somewhere, who could try and find her in the future.

CathyMoran wrote: »

I am only pro abortion if the mothers life is at risk (physically, not mental health) or the unborn baby would be in great suffering when born. I think that the people who do the abortions should be given a long sentence but those who have them should receive councelling and support.

In terms of the map, I believe that life begins at implantation...

Why not mental health issues? Are they not real problems?

What if the woman is suicidal?

ebmma

ntlbell wrote: »

so at what stage is there a difference in your opinion between the two?

where do you define the start of life?

I agree with 24 weeks threshold for terminations.

Macha

Acacia wrote: »

Why not mental health issues? Are they not real problems?

What if the woman is suicidal?

This is symptomatic of the bizarre attitude we have in Ireland towards mental health. If someone hurts their arm, they go to the doctor so why not with a mental problem?

ebmma

axel rose wrote: »

Cathy, I read your post on the parenting board and I am so sorry for what you are going through. I really wish you the best of luck for the next time.

People are different Cathy you were pregnant, are in a loving supportive relationship and want a baby-Not everyone finds themselves in this position. Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)
Abortion is necessary for some people, and when its the right choice then there is no regrets. Of three people I know that had terminations they had no regrets. The decision wasnt easy for them but they are still sure it was right for them.

Thanks Axel, you put my thoughts into words.

Mr. Incognito

This is a strange thread.

What should the penalty be?

For who??

For the woman- none. People that are desperate enough to seek and illegal abortion should not be punished.

As to life imprionment for the abortionist- get real. It's not Freddie Krueger running around with a knitting needle here.

As with all cases in law and in life the appropriate punishments should be meated out on the facts in the case. That's why we have courts.

Blanket bigotry on an internet forum is not going to produce an acceptable mandatory sentencing guideline.

Also the title of this thread is heavily biased.

The sooner this country pulls its head out of its ass the better. Sending women to England is NOT taking the moral highground. It's ABONDONING a section of society to unwarranted shame and secrecy when these vunerable women need support.

Acacia

taconnol wrote: »

This is symptomatic of the bizarre attitude we have in Ireland towards mental health. If someone hurts their arm, they go to the doctor so why not with a mental problem?

That's what I'm saying. Some people (not anyone here, just speaking from experience) seem to think that mental health problems aren't actual problems, just a case of 'people needing to cop themselves on'. The attitude to mental health issues here is a disgrace. But that's for another thread.

My point is a woman with mental health issues has , or should have, as much right to an abortion as one with physical problems ( if we're using health as a reason for abortions.)

ntlbell

axel rose wrote: »

wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem :rolleyes:. Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

Have you ever owned a gun?

ever been in a position to shoot? no?

hmm

ntlbell

ebmma wrote: »

I agree with 24 weeks threshold for terminations.

what happens in the 24th week you're ok with that doesn't happen in the 23rd?

ntlbell

Acacia wrote: »

Would you honestly have a rape victim jailed just because she couldn't bear to carry her attacker's child?

I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should she have to go through that, effectively ruining her life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing her for his crime.

It's not as easy as saying ''oh, just have it adopted''. The woman would still have to carry and give birth to a child she doesn't want and has no choice in having. And live with the fact that there is a connection to her rapist out there somewhere, who could try and find her in the future.



Why not mental health issues? Are they not real problems?

What if the woman is suicidal?

Yes I would, the victim's issue is she has been raped that's what will ruin her life if she allows it to.

now she has a chance not to ruin someone elses life by murdering someone else.

i can understand it would be very difficult, no one is saying it would be easy.

Mr. Incognito

Ntl,

why do you need three posts there

Quote:
Originally Posted by axel rose
wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem . Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

Have you ever owned a gun?

ever been in a position to shoot? no?

hmm

That makes no sense.

Your views make me very uneasy and your arguments are extreme and totally disproportionate.

You are opposed to abortion, fair enough, but invoking terms like murder and putting it on extremes like "flushing it down the toilet" are neither sensitive, rational or civilised in a debate about items that are extremely personal and need to be treated with the greatest of respect. The thing you do not seem to realise is that everyone's views are just as valid as yours. Branding people murderers and comparing abortion to shooting someone is nonsensical.

To use your analogy have you ever owned a gun above, you and I, as men, are never going to be put in the position, personally, of making this decision and that's also why I find your extreme views a little unnerving.

Perhaps, if we have another constitutional referendum on this we should only allow women to vote. I wonder what the result would be then.

ntlbell

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ntl,

why do you need three posts there



That makes no sense.

Your views make me very uneasy and your arguments are extreme and totally disproportionate.

You are opposed to abortion, fair enough, but invoking terms like murder and putting it on extremes like "flushing it down the toilet" are neither sensitive, rational or civilised in a debate about items that are extremely personal and need to be treated with the greatest of respect. The thing you do not seem to realise is that everyone's views are just as valid as yours. Branding people murderers and comparing abortion to shooting someone is nonsensical.

To use your analogy have you ever owned a gun above, you and I, as men, are never going to be put in the position, personally, of making this decision and that's also why I find your extreme views a little unnerving.

Perhaps, if we have another constitutional referendum on this we should only allow women to vote. I wonder what the result would be then.

it makes perfect sense, I don't need to be in a position to know if something imo is right or wrong.

people don't like the terms murder flusing down the toilet etc because it doesn't sit well with them well i'm sorry, for me that's the reality of the situation and if it doesn't sit well with someone then they need to ask themselves why.

I wasn't in the position but I did get a girl pregnant when we were both in our early teens with our whole lives ahead of us so the choice was in front of "us"

it's not easy when it's on your door step.

no one ever said it was

speedboatchase

Hand them an unwanted baby

Acacia

ntlbell wrote: »

Yes I would, the victim's issue is she has been raped that's what will ruin her life if she allows it to.

now she has a chance not to ruin someone elses life by murdering someone else.

i can understand it would be very difficult, no one is saying it would be easy.

I see where you're coming from but-

The pregnancy could be seen as a continuation of the rape which ruins her life.
I don't see how she is ruining the baby's life, since it doesn't have a life as such ( without getting into an argument about cut-off points and where does life begin.)

The mother's physical and mental wellbeing would be the top priority in my mind in such a case. I would be more concerned about a woman who has already been traumatized than what is essentially a clump of cells. Especially, if we were talking about younger women , aged 12, 13, 14, who have been abused and are little more than children themselves.

I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine, I just don't think we'll agree on this, tbh.

Mr. Incognito

I wasn't in the position but I did get a girl pregnant when we were both in our early teens with our whole lives ahead of us so the choice was in front of "us"

it's not easy when it's on your door step.

And you kept the child?

My son's 4 today so I hear where you are coming from but

people don't like the terms murder flusing down the toilet etc because it doesn't sit well with them well i'm sorry, for me that's the reality of the situation and if it doesn't sit well with someone then they need to ask themselves why.

They don't sit well with me and I'll tell you why. Abortion is illegal in Ireland, fair enough but we are one of the few modern societies where this is the case. When you invoke images of murder and flushing down the toilet you are using shocking mental images to re-enforce your argument. If the argument is sound you should not need the shock tactics. Abortionists do not flush foetuses down the toilet, it's the image of uncaring and unfeeling monsters you are trying to create and this is a fallacy. It is not the "reality" of the situation. It is a lie.

For a lot of women abortion is a traumatic experience that can scar them for life. Calling them murderers is as unhuman as you are trying to paint medical professionals who are operating within the law in other countries and in the main are trying to help these women. There are literally thousands of women, our sisters, daughters and mothers travelling to England every year for abortions and are met with stigmatism and shame in this country. It doesn't sit well with me that you are sitting in your ivory tower ignoring these women because they don't happen to agree with your views. That's not compassion. It's ignorance.

I'm not trying to personally attack you but you are a representative of a view I am opposed to. I personally had my son, fair enough but this gives me no moral authority to tell others what to do. I agree that people should have the choice and we should have procedures in place to support that choice whatever it is.

ntlbell

Acacia wrote: »

I see where you're coming from but-

The pregnancy could be seen as a continuation of the rape which ruins her life.
I don't see how she is ruining the baby's life, since it doesn't have a life as such ( without getting into an argument about cut-off points and where does life begin.)

The mother's physical and mental wellbeing would be the top priority in my mind in such a case. I would be more concerned about a woman who has already been traumatized than what is essentially a clump of cells. Especially, if we were talking about younger women , aged 12, 13, 14, who have been abused and are little more than children themselves.

I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine, I just don't think we'll agree on this, tbh.

I don't really see why it should come to this tho

What's the time on the morning after pill? 72 hours?

surly between the rape and the 72 hour window the morning after pill could be obtained?

ntlbell

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

And you kept the child?

My son's 4 today so I hear where you are coming from but

We kept the child yes. This doesn't give me any moral high ground but bandishing around "you've never been in a position so you don't know" is nonsense is something is right or wrong it doesn't matter if i've been in the position or not to have an opinion on it.

A friend of mine is currently serving time for muder, he shot and killed a man who was "interfering" with a family member, now I can say if I was in his shoes I probably would of done the same or at the very least beat him to an inch of his life and probably removed his special place...

was he right? no. should be in prison for murder? damn right.

would i be in the right? hell no.

how can i say such a thing without ever been in his shoes?

this thinking is flawed and that was my point.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They don't sit well with me and I'll tell you why. Abortion is illegal in Ireland, fair enough but we are one of the few modern societies where this is the case. When you invoke images of murder and flushing down the toilet you are using shocking mental images to re-enforce your argument. If the argument is sound you should not need the shock tactics. Abortionists do not flush foetuses down the toilet, it's the image of uncaring and unfeeling monsters you are trying to create and this is a fallacy. It is not the "reality" of the situation. It is a lie.

For a lot of women abortion is a traumatic experience that can scar them for life. Calling them murderers is as unhuman as you are trying to paint medical professionals who are operating within the law in other countries and in the main are trying to help these women. There are literally thousands of women, our sisters, daughters and mothers travelling to England every year for abortions and are met with stigmatism and shame in this country. It doesn't sit well with me that you are sitting in your ivory tower ignoring these women because they don't happen to agree with your views. That's not compassion. It's ignorance.

I'm not trying to personally attack you but you are a representative of a view I am opposed to. I personally had my son, fair enough but this gives me no moral authority to tell others what to do. I agree that people should have the choice and we should have procedures in place to support that choice whatever it is.

I have compassion for them, I have compassion for someone who might murder someone defending their home, I have compassion for junkies who got caught up in the wrong place wrong time and may have killed for a disgusting drug habbit, I have compassion for rape victims, I have compassion for people who decide to have abortion and live with that choice for the rest of their lives...

but my compassion for the people and the circumstances is not relevant.