What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

m83

I just watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD97OVJ4PNw

It certainly raises some interesting questions. If abortion was to become illegal, what do you think the punishment should be?

ntlbell

The same as murder.

Murder should be a minimum of 25 years I think this would be a good starting point.

m83

ntlbell wrote: »

The same as murder.

Murder should be a minimum of 25 years I think this would be a good starting point.

Fair enough. At what stage of the pregnancy would this sentence apply?

How about the morning after pill?

Nevyn

m83 wrote: »

How about the morning after pill?

The morning after pill aka the emergency contraceptive pill does not cause an abortion to occur
if it did then it would be illegal in this country and it's not.

m83

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

ntlbell

m83 wrote: »

Fair enough. At what stage of the pregnancy would this sentence apply?

How about the morning after pill?

This is always very difficult aspect to define where life begins.

I think this has to be a scientific issue and not a moral one.

So today the first point we can scientifically detect life whatever that stage is.

m83

Ok, hypothetical situation for you.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Still 25 years?

CathyMoran

I am only pro abortion if the mothers life is at risk (physically, not mental health) or the unborn baby would be in great suffering when born. I think that the people who do the abortions should be given a long sentence but those who have them should receive councelling and support.

In terms of the map, I believe that life begins at implantation...

seanybiker

m83 wrote: »

Still 25 years?

Yup. Definately.

Oryx

<I havent watched the vid.>

I think youd have to keep morality and talk of murder out of it. It should be dealt with like a medical malpractice, and any penalty based on the circumstances.

Also who would you accuse? The practitioner of the abortion? The pregnant woman who seeks it? Both?

Nevyn

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

It prevents a pregnancy from occurring there for it does not end a pregnancy
and the legal and medical definition of abortion is to end or terminate a pregnancy before it is completed.

While a woman may have conceived she is not medically or legally pregnant until the embryo implants, post conception contraception prevents this from happening.

Again prevents a pregnancy does not end one, ergo does not cause an abortion and it not an abortificant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZKuuUPjk1Q

Jesus Wept

Abortions for all.

ntlbell

m83 wrote: »

Ok, hypothetical situation for you.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Still 25 years?

Yup.

She could have the baby and give it up for adoption etc, the baby didn't rape her and beat her to an inch of her life why should the unborn be murdered?

The only situation I'd consider no jail time is where the mother's life is at risk if she has the baby

ebmma

Oh dear. You can't 'kill' what isn't there yet.

coffee_cake

ntlbell wrote: »

Yup.

She could have the baby and give it up for adoption etc, the baby didn't rape her and beat her to an inch of her life why should the unborn be murdered?

Because it's a non-sentient clump of cells at early stage?

http://www.leedsreproductivemedicine.co.uk/images/sixcell_embryo.jpg
is not the same as
http://ecostreet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/baby-gown.jpg

ntlbell

bluewolf wrote: »

Because it's a non-sentient clump of cells at early stage?

http://www.leedsreproductivemedicine.co.uk/images/sixcell_embryo.jpg
is not the same as
http://ecostreet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/baby-gown.jpg

so at what stage is there a difference in your opinion between the two?

where do you define the start of life?

ntlbell

ebmma wrote: »

Oh dear. You can't 'kill' what isn't there yet.

well as he didn't state her recovery period we don't know if there is or isn't yet do we...

again, where do you define the start of life?

4 weeks? 5? 6? 12?

Svalbard

If those lovely people with the placards (who clearly have thought long and hard about issues surrounding abortion) can't agree to punish women who choose termination, I find it hard to believe people on this board are so sure a 25 year jail term is indicated.

jill_valentine

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

Every time you don't have sex you prevent a would-be pregnancy.

And no offense, my beloved boardsies, but I suspect there's a lot of non-sex happening all over the board. Why I'd even go so far as to say this place is a veritable hotbed of non-sex.

ntlbell

Svalbard wrote: »

If those lovely people with the placards (who clearly have thought long and hard about issues surrounding abortion) can't agree to punish women who choose termination, I find it hard to believe people on this board are so sure a 25 year jail term is indicated.

I'm not basing the 25yrs on what they said I didn't listen to most of it.

but anyone who's going around with a placard against abortion who thinks it shouldn't be illegal and hasn't thought about a punishment is probably a tiny little bit of a moron.

Svalbard

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm not basing the 25yrs on what they said I didn't listen to most of it.

but anyone who's going around with a placard against abortion who thinks it shouldn't be illegal and hasn't thought about a punishment is probably a tiny little bit of a moron.

Well at least we can agree on one thing. They are morons.

m83

jill_valentine wrote: »

Every time you don't have sex you prevent a would-be pregnancy.

And no offense, my beloved boardsies, but I suspect there's a lot of non-sex happening all over the board. Why I'd even go so far as to say this place is a veritable hotbed of non-sex.

Thanks for learnin' me, hence why I posted in humanities.

I think the video posed a bit of a trick question. IMHO, if someone was to be punished it should be the practitioner for malpractice.

coffee_cake

ntlbell wrote: »

so at what stage is there a difference in your opinion between the two?

where do you define the start of life?

There is no "start of life". Sperm and ova are not non-life.

In my opinion, roughly depending on brain development.

CathyMoran

Anyone who goes through with an abortion is going through their own source of hell and should not be punished in my opinion (but should be given support). Those who perpetrate such crimes should be locked away for life though...

Nevyn

CathyMoran wrote: »

Those who perpetrate such crimes should be locked away for life though...

I disagree.

For the most part those who do preform abortions where they are legal
do so in order to provide safe medical terminations to women
rather then have them seek out unsafe back street abortions or to
try and preform them on themselves which are a risks to their life's, health and fertility.

johnnyskeleton

m83 wrote: »

I just watched this video:

It certainly raises some interesting questions. If abortion was to become illegal, what do you think the punishment should be?

Abortion is illegal in Ireland:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1861/cukpga_18610100_en_3#pb7-l1g52

The Offences Against the Person Act, 1861 (c.100) wrote:

58. Administering drugs or using instruments to procure abortion

Every woman, being with child, who, with intent to procure her own miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, and whosoever, with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable to be [imprisoned] for life.


59. Procuring drugs, &c. to cause abortion

Whosoever shall unlawfully supply or procure any poison or other noxious thing, or any instrument or thing whatsoever, knowing that the same is intended to be unlawfully used or employed with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable to be imprisoned for any period not less than three years and not exceeding five years.

I think the penalty, in this modern age, should be a large fine and a discretionary temporary suspension of your medical licence. In practical terms, no one is prosecuted for getting or supplying an abortion.

As to whether a non-drug abortion would be illegal, it might be causing serious harm contrary to s.4 NFOAP, 1997, but that's a very dodgy one.

ntlbell

bluewolf wrote: »

There is no "start of life". Sperm and ova are not non-life.

In my opinion, roughly depending on brain development.

so it's something that can be flushed down the toilet until there some sort of brain activity?

johnnyskeleton

CathyMoran wrote: »

Anyone who goes through with an abortion is going through their own source of hell and should not be punished in my opinion (but should be given support). Those who perpetrate such crimes should be locked away for life though...

God damn anti-doctor lobby...

mayordenis

Thaedydal wrote: »

I disagree.

For the most part those who do preform abortions where they are legal
do so in order to provide safe medical terminations to women
rather then have them seek out unsafe back street abortions or to
try and preform them on themselves which are a risks to their life's, health and fertility.

this is correct, a thousand times.

metrovelvet

Yes she should be punished. To what extent? Couldnt say.

But the person, clinciian, abortionist, whoever actually performs the abortion could get a far more severe sentennce since s/he's the one who actually does it.

Phototoxin

The morning after pill aka the emergency contraceptive pill does not cause an abortion to occur
if it did then it would be illegal in this country and it's not.

false logic. It depends how abortion is defined in the law and what the pill itself does.

Some pills prevent ovulation, some prevent implantation, some cause the impanted embryo to be ejected. If one believes that life begins at conception then it is abortive. For the record about 50% of conceptions (not implantations) are aborted naturally.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

not the babys fault. I'm mentally ill, I cannot handle the truama of looking at 6 year old boys, is it therefore ok that I kill 6 year olds ? No because it is not their fault and I should not take it out on them.
She should be given support and if she doenst want the child should be adopted. Part of the problem is society where in our pseudo-catholic society people are judgemental about single mothers and anything to do with sex.

In addition it is unfar that the rapist will probably be out in 7 years or soemthing. Life imprisonment, being shagged up the bum by butch mc hardy might make others reconsider.

solution for abortionist - abort the abortionist? Ya know inject caustic solution to them or cut them up and vacuum up the pieces...
(though most abortions are not doen this way I think)

Abortions for all.

minature american flags for others?

Every time you don't have sex you prevent a would-be pregnancy.

that is non sensical, there is no chance for pregnancy to occur if no sex takes place. By that logic I'm allowing rape and murder to take place because I'm not actively out crusading against it.

the keyword in offences against the person is 'unlawful'.

Unlawful abortionists should be stripped of medical license (if any), possibly charged with GBH too.