Atheism is "cool"

Handsome Bob · 10-01-2009 11:45pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

So you believe, it is just that you choose to reject eh? however, predestination comes into play which immidiately makes your rejection null and void. You cannot reject if you have not YET been chosen; because it is His will that all come to Christ...

also... love without faith is nothing

Predestination? Tell me exactly how predestination comes into play when you simply love yourself?

Galvasean · 10-01-2009 11:51pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Mind you though I can understand why one would be an agnostic over being an atheist. If you do not know something perhaps it would seem better to you not to take a position, or to keep open in relation to God's existence.

Yes, although that is aside from the point I was making.
I was specifically referring to those atheists who when in public call themselves agnostics just to avoid confrontation. (I should know, i used to be one)

lostexpectation · 11-01-2009 5:26pm

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

It seems to happen in every thread I've read, no matter what the topic was to begin with:pac:

you could always bring it back on topic by explaining how you think these kids actually do believe in god and are not atheists.

Dudess · 11-01-2009 9:40pm

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I mean, I'm repeating my living cert now, so I'm a bit older than the others in my year

LOL - so you're 18/19 as opposed to 17/18...

And when asked why, they just give stupid reasons like "believing in God is stupid!", backed up with no reason why it's apparently so stupid. Have any of you experienced this? Has atheism become the new "cool" thing? Or is it meerly isolated to my school:pac:

Anything anti establishment has been considered "cool" by teenagers for decades, it's not just something that's emerged in the last year or two...

Of course there's nothing remotely rebellious or interesting about going against the establishment... what's far more going against the grain in this day and age, is to be conservative, Christian, to marry very young, etc. I hear constant whinges of "people only support Palestine because it's cool". Yeah right. It's the most non subversive thing a person in, at least Western Europe, could do... far more unusual for younger people to back the Israelis.

11-01-2009 9:48pm

Dudess wrote: »

LOL - so you're 18/19 as opposed to 17/18...

That's irrelevant! I don't really know why I even mentioned it in the post as it doesn't matter with regards to my question. I suppose I it said because when I was in 5th year myself, I was the only atheist (there possibly were others, but I was the only one that actually said I was and had no shame in doing so). But now, in the year under me (current 5th years), I personally know of 6 outspoken atheists. So, it appears in two years things have progressed.

Dudess wrote: »

Anything anti establishment has been considered "cool" by teenagers for decades, it's not just something that's emerged in the last year or two...

Of course anything anti-establishment has always been considered cool; but I know, in my area anyway, that public admittance of atheism has always been quite rare, and only in the last year or two have I seen it happen more.

philologos · 11-01-2009 10:05pm

Dudess wrote: »

Of course there's nothing remotely rebellious or interesting about going against the establishment... what's far more going against the grain in this day and age, is to be conservative, Christian, to marry very young, etc. I hear constant whinges of "people only support Palestine because it's cool". Yeah right. It's the most non subversive thing a person in, at least Western Europe, could do... far more unusual for younger people to back the Israelis.

Right... but explain this. Why are more conservative religions becoming more popular amongst youth? This is particularly the case amongst Muslims and Evangelical Christians, actually I'd say it's true for any real conservative leaning faith.

Perhaps this isn't the case in Ireland, but from what I've seen of Evangelical churches it is true here as well.

Galvasean · 11-01-2009 10:09pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Right... but explain this. Why are more conservative religions becoming more popular amongst youth? This is particularly the case amongst Muslims and Evangelical Christians, actually I'd say it's true for any real conservative leaning faith.

Simple, as Dudess said being anti-establishment is too mainstream these days. If you really want to ruffle some feathers you go conservative, 'old-skool' if you will.

philologos · 11-01-2009 10:13pm

How is that anti-establishment though? Unless you mean that people are becoming more and more conservative in their faith in order to stand out from others?

Mind you she does have a point about marriage. Although you can see a difference between how youth regard marriage in the US and over here. Over here people would wait much longer, but in the US they marry much younger.

studiorat · 11-01-2009 10:14pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Right... but explain this. Why are more conservative religions becoming more popular amongst youth? This is particularly the case amongst Muslims and Evangelical Christians, actually I'd say it's true for any real conservative leaning faith.

I asked a nun a while ago as to why the numbers in her order were decreasing. Just polite talk, I wasn't trying to convert her honest!!
Anyway she reckoned it was because it was easier these days to be a nun and some of the challenge to leading a life in that way had gone. I suppose the same could be said for the rise in the more conservative sects.

You have to just look at the "Straight Edge" movement to see the reasoning behind this.

And just in case you aren't hip to the kids straight edge

Galvasean · 11-01-2009 10:16pm

Jakkass wrote: »

How is that anti-establishment though? Unless you mean that people are becoming more and more conservative in their faith in order to stand out from others?

That's exactly what I meant.
Well, some people anyway.

Dudess · 11-01-2009 10:16pm

It's not anti establishment seeing as religion is part of the establishment, but it is going against a grain.

philologos · 11-01-2009 10:31pm

Galvasean wrote: »

That's exactly what I meant.
Well, some people anyway.

I wouldn't say it's exactly like that, or that the primary motive of many young people who are staying in Christianity is to just stand out. However most that I do know do identify strongly with it, I think I would say it's a part of who I am anyway, but that isn't the reason why I would say it was appealing to me.

Dudess · 11-01-2009 10:35pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's exactly like that, or that the primary motive of many young people who are staying in Christianity is to just stand out.

I don't think that either - I would be surprised if there wasn't sincerity behind it. However, it is still going against a grain - I mean that in an admirable sense. Those teens must have to deal with a lot of ridicule.

I do think there are some people who take a conservative stance though just to get attention - e.g. people who back Israel, Irish people being unionists, people supporting Bush, people denying climate change and being generally anti environmentalist.

philologos · 11-01-2009 10:39pm

Backing Israel isn't correlative with being a Christian. I know many who would be critical of Israel too. However I'd be a moderate on the Israel - Palestine issue, i.e I see that Hamas and militants are also at fault and Israel shouldn't be the only one to blame, but blame is due to it too. I was very much pro-Palestinian a year or two ago.

As for Irish people being Unionists indeed that isn't very common. I'm not very nationalistic really, but going unionist is a bit of the flipside

Denying climate change, I've had my skeptical moments but I still think it's a worthy cause

I guess the poignant question is where does atheism fit into this? Is this also a means of defining yourself in the same kind of way?

It sounds to me that anything that deviates from the norm is somewhat defining in people.

11-01-2009 10:51pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I guess the poignant question is where does atheism fit into this? Is this also a means of defining yourself in the same kind of way?

It sounds to me that anything that deviates from the norm is somewhat defining in people.

I think that quite a few people feign to be atheists because atheism has connotations with intelligence and rationality (That's not my own opinion, but, I don't think anyone can doubt that it has connotations like that. Especially with people like Dawkins and the Hitch promoting it all the time, I think they give off that image). I've no doubt that many younger people become atheists just because it's anti-establishment. It won't be long until some people become fundamentalist atheists (they're probably already around), just to go against the grain, almost like anti-theists!

philologos · 11-01-2009 10:55pm

Well I doubt that it has connotations like that, but most atheists won't deny that it has those connotations so I assume you are correct if you take it in that respect. I think that rational knowledge is only a very small part of what knowledge is in general (we should take empirical knowledge into account as scientific experiments can be rationalised but the results are acheived by experience). Just my two cents but the words "rational" and "logical" are abused by atheists to make it seem they have a monopoly on them.

As for anti-theist I think there are a few around already.

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 10:56pm

I'd like to ask a question and be honest...do any of you 100% not believe in God...like not a single grain of you wonders

11-01-2009 11:01pm

sukikettle wrote: »

I'd like to ask a question and be honest...do any of you 100% not believe in God...like not a single grain of you wonders

I'm somewhere around 99.999% I'd say. Of course I could never be 100% sure he doesn't; in the same way I could never be 100% sure goblins or fairys don't.

MatthewVII · 11-01-2009 11:02pm

sukikettle wrote: »

I'd like to ask a question and be honest...do any of you 100% not believe in God...like not a single grain of you wonders

Yup, i 100% disbelieve in god. i know he doesn't exist. That's why I'm an atheist.

docdolittle · 11-01-2009 11:03pm

I don't sukikettle, I stopped believing when I was about 12 just around my confirmation and never really did again. People I know are actually suddenly becoming really religious again... There only about 21 too :eek: I just found that really weird

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:04pm

Jammie He says faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.Yours seems just about the right size

Dudess · 11-01-2009 11:04pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Backing Israel isn't correlative with being a Christian. I know many who would be critical of Israel too. However I'd be a moderate on the Israel - Palestine issue, i.e I see that Hamas and militants are also at fault and Israel shouldn't be the only one to blame, but blame is due to it too. I was very much pro-Palestinian a year or two ago.

As for Irish people being Unionists indeed that isn't very common. I'm not very nationalistic really, but going unionist is a bit of the flipside

Denying climate change, I've had my skeptical moments but I still think it's a worthy cause

No sorry, I wasn't using those examples as causes typical Christians believe in, I was just making general points.

sukikettle wrote: »

I'd like to ask a question and be honest...do any of you 100% not believe in God...like not a single grain of you wonders

Well I'm agnostic so I don't discount the possibility that there's a higher power. I just don't believe it's possible that this higher power is a kind, loving one. I think, if there is one, it's just... "there".

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:06pm

Doc I'm the resident nutter i.e. I'm a born again bible-believing/quoting Holy Spirit filled new Creation in Jesus Christ:)

docdolittle · 11-01-2009 11:09pm

Well I just live and let live, I have my own moral standards which would prob run along the same lines as christianity... well except for the sex stuff :P to hell with waiting till your married :P So I never seen much point to devoting your self to a higher being who prob couldn't care less if you go to church as long as you live a good life :P

philologos · 11-01-2009 11:10pm

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I'm somewhere around 99.999% I'd say. Of course I could never be 100% sure he doesn't; in the same way I could never be 100% sure goblins or fairys don't.

As discussed above goblins and fairies fall into the same category of the FSM. Christianity has a lot more behind it than these texts in areas of academic debate, such as in history, archaeology, philosophy, theology and so on.

ntlbell · 11-01-2009 11:11pm

Dudess wrote: »

It's not anti establishment seeing as religion is part of the establishment, but it is going against a grain.

With the amount of churches being sold/turned into night clubs the lack of new sign ups to the priest hood the serious reductions in attendance at mass etc

would being a good practicing catholic not be going against the grain?

or is that your point

11-01-2009 11:12pm

sukikettle wrote: »

Jammie He says faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.Yours seems just about the right size

But you see, I don't have faith at all, that .001% isn't faith. I think anyone who says they are 100% sure there is no God is just foolish, of course they can't be sure there isn't one. No atheist should be 100% sure, if they are they're just as "bad" as the fundamentalist Christian or Muslim.

I believe that the possibility of a theistic God existing is on par with the possibility of Russell's teapot (or any other fantastic idea) existing. But, a deistic God is a different story altogether. A deistic God would probably lie around the 1% chance of existance, to me anyway. Where as a theistic God lies somewhere around .0001%.

MatthewVII · 11-01-2009 11:12pm

Jakkass wrote: »

As discussed above goblins and fairies fall into the same category of the FSM. Christianity has a lot more behind it than these texts in areas of academic debate, such as in history, archaeology, philosophy, theology and so on.

Well, you could argue that archaeology, philosophy and theology all stem from the history.

Which goes back to the old argument that the only edge that god has on the FSM is time.

11-01-2009 11:13pm

Jakkass wrote: »

As discussed above goblins and fairies fall into the same category of the FSM. Christianity has a lot more behind it than these texts in areas of academic debate, such as in history, archaeology, philosophy, theology and so on.

Maybe so. But I still regard it to be on par with other such beliefs. Christianity may have a lot behind it, but God doesn't.

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:16pm

so if God exists even at odds of 0.001% that's still high if you turn out wrong and come face to face with Him. You will have spent your one life dissing Him and what's He supposed to do with you...what would you deserve?

Dudess · 11-01-2009 11:17pm

ntlbell wrote: »

With the amount of churches being sold/turned into night clubs the lack of new sign ups to the priest hood the serious reductions in attendance at mass etc

would being a good practicing catholic not be going against the grain?

or is that your point

Yep, that be my point.

Dudess · 11-01-2009 11:19pm

sukikettle wrote: »

so if God exists even at odds of 0.001% that's still high if you turn out wrong and come face to face with Him. You will have spent your one life dissing Him and what's He supposed to do with you...what would you deserve?

His understanding that a person will surely feel doubts as to his existence considering tsunamis, cancer, hurricanes, cot death...

ntlbell · 11-01-2009 11:21pm

sukikettle wrote: »

so if God exists even at odds of 0.001% that's still high if you turn out wrong and come face to face with Him. You will have spent your one life dissing Him and what's He supposed to do with you...what would you deserve?

What if you explain you weren't dissing him you were dissing Zeus or one of the other gods.

just wait to see which one exactly exists and go "ah no i was slagging the other one"

problem solved.

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:26pm

Dudess it just doesn't work like that as logical as it may be to you. God isn't helpless and He doesn't shrug feebily when we get up there because we've been through cancer, tsunamis etc Our only objective as His creation is to seek Him and love Him and remain faithful. It's what He's always been doing for us. It's a 2 way street, very much father/child. You have to remember who is behind evil.Even Jesus said a house divided against itself will fall. Attributing evil to God is blasphemous and illogical

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:28pm

Zeus is a greek washing powder, great at removing egg but not sin;)

ntlbell · 11-01-2009 11:29pm

sukikettle wrote: »

Dudess it just doesn't work like that as logical as it may be to you. God isn't helpless and He doesn't shrug feebily when we get up there because we've been through cancer, tsunamis etc Our only objective as His creation is to seek Him and love Him and remain faithful. It's what He's always been doing for us. It's a 2 way street, very much father/child. You have to remember who is behind evil.Even Jesus said a house divided against itself will fall. Attributing evil to God is blasphemous and illogical

How do you know all this?

and which god?

pass the pipe..

11-01-2009 11:30pm

sukikettle wrote: »

so if God exists even at odds of 0.001% that's still high if you turn out wrong and come face to face with Him. You will have spent your one life dissing Him and what's He supposed to do with you...what would you deserve?

Ah Pascal's Wager. Well that's a risk I'm willing to take to be honest. If it turns out he is real, and that he thinks I deserve eternal damnation for being rational and using the intelligence he gave me, then so be it. Hell, here I come.

MatthewVII · 11-01-2009 11:30pm

sukikettle wrote: »

so if God exists even at odds of 0.001% that's still high if you turn out wrong and come face to face with Him. You will have spent your one life dissing Him and what's He supposed to do with you...what would you deserve?

To be honest, I'd stop bible-bashing and preaching judgement to atheists/agnostics. Your response to what Jammie said is exactly why the church is losing followers.

MackDeToaster · 11-01-2009 11:32pm

sukikettle wrote: »

so if God exists even at odds of 0.001% that's still high if you turn out wrong and come face to face with Him. You will have spent your one life dissing Him and what's He supposed to do with you...what would you deserve?

If god is so petty and vindictive (human) that he/she/it wants to punish me, then it's not a god which is worthy of worship.

If it's the other case and god doesn't have a problem with it, then.. there is no problem.

MatthewVII · 11-01-2009 11:34pm

sukikettle wrote: »

Dudess it just doesn't work like that as logical as it may be to you. God isn't helpless and He doesn't shrug feebily when we get up there because we've been through cancer, tsunamis etc Our only objective as His creation is to seek Him and love Him and remain faithful. It's what He's always been doing for us. It's a 2 way street, very much father/child. You have to remember who is behind evil.Even Jesus said a house divided against itself will fall. Attributing evil to God is blasphemous and illogical

"god" is an omnipotent superbeing. The best thing he could think of to do with his time is to create beings whose only purpose is to worship him? Seems like kindof a lame and self-serving thing to do.

MackDeToaster · 11-01-2009 11:35pm

sukikettle wrote: »

You have to remember who is behind evil.

sukikettle wrote: »

Attributing evil to God is blasphemous and illogical

Is there not a bit of a contradiction here ? Or who are you saying is behind evil?

philologos · 11-01-2009 11:35pm

Dudess wrote: »

Well I'm agnostic so I don't discount the possibility that there's a higher power. I just don't believe it's possible that this higher power is a kind, loving one. I think, if there is one, it's just... "there".

Ah interesting. Just wondering, have you ever read any philosophy of religion (particularly on the problem of evil)?

The Mad Hatter · 11-01-2009 11:35pm

sukikettle is a fraud and a troll.

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:38pm

I'm quoting the bible not being preachy...If He is in charge of all creation and He sets some rules and asks you to follow them with faith then He has a right to damn.It's not petty or vindictive.If you worked for a company you had no faith in and disrespected the boss and were mostly unco-operative and spouted disrespectful statements about him what would he do. Where would the contrary be written into any contract that exists. It makes sense. Believe it or not God owes you nothing

sukikettle · 11-01-2009 11:43pm

Mad you're rude and your comment is unwarranted

MackDeToaster · 11-01-2009 11:45pm

If parents went off and left their kids to fend for themselves, even if they left a note on the fridge saying how to work the oven, they'd be arrested and charged with neglect. They have a duty of care. Seeing as god, being god, is constantly listening in via the baby monitor and watching over cctv, letting Timmy torture the dog and set Sarah on fire is pretty indicitive that he doesn't give a fcuk alright, as you said yourself. So the question is, why would you want anything to do with a parent like that ?

ntlbell · 11-01-2009 11:45pm

sukikettle wrote: »

I'm quoting the bible not being preachy...If He is in charge of all creation and He sets some rules and asks you to follow them with faith then He has a right to damn.It's not petty or vindictive.If you worked for a company you had no faith in and disrespected the boss and were mostly unco-operative and spouted disrespectful statements about him what would he do. Where would the contrary be written into any contract that exists. It makes sense. Believe it or not God owes you nothing

what did ye think about the 3 bears and the porridge going missing

MatthewVII · 11-01-2009 11:45pm

sukikettle wrote: »

I'm quoting the bible not being preachy.

I'm pretty sure that's a direct contradiction

sukikettle wrote:

If you worked for a company you had no faith in and disrespected the boss

The difference is that you know a boss exists, he hired you, you see him regularly and know damn well he's in charge of your paycheck. Imagine instead you are walking along one day and come to an empty workstation in the middle of nowhere with a pile of accounts that need balancing on it. You either believe that a divine being placed it in your way for some reason and get to work, with nothing keeping you going other than the thought of someone looking down and overseeing you, or you keep going and refuse to jump to any conclusions.

11-01-2009 11:47pm

sukikettle wrote: »

I'm quoting the bible not being preachy...If He is in charge of all creation and He sets some rules and asks you to follow them with faith then He has a right to damn.It's not petty or vindictive.If you worked for a company you had no faith in and disrespected the boss and were mostly unco-operative and spouted disrespectful statements about him what would he do. Where would the contrary be written into any contract that exists. It makes sense. Believe it or not God owes you nothing

Suikikettle, can I ask you to do one thing? Just one thing. Please, oh please, stop preaching to us. It gets very annoying very quickly. I don't want to be preached to while I'm snooping around Boards, I just want to be left to do my own thing. So I beg of you suki, please stop preaching!

The Mad Hatter · 11-01-2009 11:48pm

sukikettle wrote: »

Mad you're rude and your comment is unwarranted

I'm rude, yes, but my comment is true.

Atheism is "cool"

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