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The IAA, "The Shop" and the other organisation - Moved from the PQ Thread

13567…11

Comments

  • #62
    Rooky1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Rooky1


    Of course you don't have to join!
    You can still skirmish as a rental or with a two tone AEG.

    You are not required to skirmish a certain amount of times!
    Just at the beginning they want you to skirmish 3 times in a 2 month period to prove that you are serious about the sport of Airsoft!
    But that is only to become registered!!

    I don't see a problem with this! I know some people will get the feeling that they are being told what to do, but this isn't the case.

    You don't have to register it is a personal thing! I have found it handy with my many travels for skirmishes in the UK. It always helps when you have some thing on paper when you are dealing with Airport Authorieties or Armed Police when they inspect your AEG's and equipment.:D


  • #63
    The Warehouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


    Hivemind187 wrote: »
    "I dont see whats wrong with two associations"

    1) Two associations means a divided community.
    Only if the 200 or so members of the 1st associations refuse to join the 2nd which will be larger in 1 or 2 months.
    2) The second association is more limited in scope than the first.
    On what are you basing this?
    3) Two associations means two different, opposing groups (and they will be opposing) vying for the attention of the authorities. This will dilute both sides argument and make them easier to ignore. Evidence? See shooting forum.
    Only if both have different agendas. Which they do not. Securing the future of Airsoft.
     4) What benefit does having two different associations offer as opposed to a single one whose policies and direction can be altered by votes, reasoned argument and rational concern?
    The fact that I need to pay to have my voice heard is a farce.

    "Businesses will do what is best for their profits".

    1) Businesses have every right to protect themselves but they do not have the right to rob the customer of their purchasing freedom.
    Again what are you basing this on?
    2) Businesses should have to suceed on their own merit and not the whim of a vested cartel. In other words, their services and products should be what dictates whether they can survive economically and not their membership in a private club.
    Very true
    3) A representative group for businesses already exists - the IAA - whose agenda was to do more than protect the porfit margin, its to ensure that they still have a business with a profit margin to protect.
    IAA have stated to me that they have done nothing for businesses.

    "I dont like the IAA so I like the new guys"

    1) Why dont you like the IAA? Is it because of what you have heard? Or did you do your own research and come to the conclusion on your own based on the rational accumulation of evidence. Were you lazy or were you active.
    I stated my reasons in the below post. I am insulted by the fact you are calling me lazy just because I dont agree with you.
    2) What do you like about the new guys? Is it that they claim to be the upholders of your rights? Is it because they claim to protect the sport? Or is it simply because they are new and not the IAA?
    All 3

    "Whats wrong with only being able to buy from member retailers?"

    1) It robs you of your right to purchase from abroad and thus your consumer power.
    Bold faced lie.
    2) It prevents more shops form opening, reducing competition which erodes services and inflates prices by robbing you of the right to choose.
    Bold faced lie.

    "Whats wrong with handing over the details of my kit and having to be a member"

    1) Airsoft devices are not dangerous, registration of devices implies that they are.
    Grow up. Airsoft devices CAN be dangerous. We need to show that we can govern ourselves before someone comes in and does it for us.
    2) It kills the second hand market by forcing you to declare what you have and ensure that it does not change.
    This point was discussed at the meeting. If the person you are selling your device to is registered then you have no issues selling to them.
    3) It paves the way for licensing of products in your posession with annual fees and security measures which will be under the control of a commercial body whose intention is to make profit.
    You cant licence something that has no serial markings. So point disproved.
    As for a commercial body making profits, is that not the point of one?
    As long as it is not doing it in an underhand way whats the problem?
     4) You will have no control over where your information is sent and to whom it is available.
    Yes you do. Its going to be quite clearly stated to you who has access to that information. IASRA and the DoJ.
    5) Forcing an individual to be a member in order to own equipment means that those individuals are subject to the whims of the controlling body. In other words, you have to pay for membership, pay for equipment, you must play at their sites which you will pay for and they can set the prices, how often you must play and how often you must buy.
    Post from the UKARA member will answer this better then I could.

    "Its about time there was a second voice"

    1) The timing is not a coincidence. The new association is taking advantage of the handover period the initial association is going through.
    Little bit paranoid there. It could simply be that the Minister of Justice stated that he was going to ban airsoft. After over a year of the IAA running, comments like this from the minister should not be happening.
    2) The second association has done nothing to manipulate the outcome of the DoJ decisions in the MPB and it is too late to. They have not produced any proposals and published no agenda to the people they claim to represent.
    We only had our EGM 4 days ago.
    3) The second association has made no efforts and is parasiting on the back of the achievments of the initial association.
    This claim is based off the ministers comments that made no reference to them.


    Major differences

    IAA does not demand membership to own devices
    IASRA does.
    True, to insure that only those who know the rules have them.

    IAA is not a commercial body whose core interest is the profits of its members
    IASRA is.
    Funny seeing as you have to pay the IAA to have a voice.

    IAA has had interaction with the DoJ and has published the relevant articles
    IASRA has not.
    Quite a bold statement. Want to provide proof of both comments?

    IAA has submitted proposals which are available for the perusal of everyone regardless of membership
    IASRA has not.
    4 days.

    IAA has defended the sport of airsoft from media attack and political attack - sucessfully.
    I have heard the IAA on the Joe Duffy show and was not impressed. They were over run by a mob of angry housewives.
    As for the political attacks it is again a big leap to assume comments from the Minister were related to the IAA and not to other groups also.
    IASRA has not.
    Members of the IASRA have (Better then the IAA in my opinion). I dont seem to remember any media attacks in the last 4 days.


    IAA was established by boards.ie members, from boards.ie members and is representative of all areas of the community.
    Except it dosent represent me the commercial interest. Or even normally as the skirmisher.
    I fail to see the point on the Boards members. Is it a Boards.ie Club?
    IASRA was not.
    IASRA was formed by legimitate (Not to say those not there are illigimitate) retailers, sites, teams, players and even magazines.

    In my opinion IASRA with 1 meeting has brought together more aspects of the community then the IAA.

    IAA has been transparent and has published its policies, agenda etc
    IASRA has not.
    Are you serious?

    IAA has provided means for individuals to submit their opinions, comments nd ideas in order to influence the direction of airsoft and the proposals to the DoJ.
    Gotta pay the man 1st right?
    IASRA has not.
    4 Days ago and yes you will be able to.

    IAA committee members are not commercial interests.
    My point exactly.
    IASRA are commercial interests.
    ....... dont forget the teams and players too :)

    Edit
    IAA have never demanded a list of what you own
    As they dont care once you have paid your membership fee.
     IASRA do as we do care what happens once you leave the store.

    IAA do not share out your personal information to the authorities
    IASRA will.
    If you have nothing to hide and use your equipment in a responsible manner what is the problem?

    BIG LIE: Commerical interests have the most to lose because of their money and business so they will make sure everything is fine.
    BIG TRUTH: The individual has the most to lose because they have the buying power, they play the sport, they collect the kit and they are the ones who will protect you because YOU are one of them.

    Both sides have alot to loose. Why does one side have to loose more????

    There are hundreds more differences.
    Name them


  • #64
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    The Warehouse wrote: »
    The DoJ. I have no issues with them knowing that I own AEG's. I am a law abiding citizen and have no ulterier motives for owning AEG's. Do you?

    There is a world of difference between declaring you are an airsofter and providing the government with an inventory of what are classified as toys.
    The Warehouse wrote: »
    Bang. Nail on the head right there. Transperancy, where is it? If the IAA is singlehandly responsible for saving our sport I can only assume that it is from 1 meeting with the oppositation as that is all I know about.

    Speaking as someone who has engaged the government as part of a socio-political lobbying group in the past, it is not to the general betterment of any group (nor do government particularly always like it thus having a detrimental effect on your goal) when every dealing, even whilst in progress, is broadcast.

    There is also the element of "showing your hand" to consider. Lobbying government is a bit like poker. You don't show your hand until you're ready to play. Suggestions were indeed raised at the recent IAA AGM to raise the profile of goings on, if not the minutae.
    On the flip side I know of 2 other groups that have been speaking to the DoJ in relation to Airsoft.

    Really? What are these other two groups? First I've heard. The IASRA are a possible for one such group. But hey, so long as we're talking about transparency knock yourself out.
    That is fine I am ok with this. From my dealings with them I am basing my opinion on them. The IAA is there for the skirmishers while being run by those that dont skirmish alot. Commercial interests are not represented in thier meetings and as a result not much is being done for them. Again thats fine by me.

    Why bring up the point of the IAA committee (outgoing) not skirmishing much? I don't think I've ever seen Derek skirmish but I don't hold that against him ...
    Cars are legal.
    Cars can do alot of damage if misused.
    To drive a car correctly you need to know the rules. Hence the licence.
    Driving a car without a licence is illegal.

    Cars have the potential to do devastating amounts of damage in the hands of either the untrained or the careless. Airsoft devices clearly don't since we are firing them at each other every other weekend.

    Further, cars are not toys. Airsoft devices are.


  • #65
    The Warehouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


    horgan_p wrote: »
    @ The Warehouse :

    With all due respect , I have read the constitution on the new association , so i do know a little of what i'm talking about.


    I think it'd be interesting if the retailers and sites who were present declared their suppliers.
    i'm no mystic meg , but i think you'll see one name being repeated a lot.

    I am aware of 2 constitution's floating around. The 1st was a very early draft and was not voted on.

    The second was voted in and I urge the committee of the IASRA to publish it.

    Secondly I have no issues announcing our supplier.

    We are proud to say we bought our equipment from Eirsoft. (Who was not present at the meeting)


  • #66
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Tigger wrote: »
    saw this comming

    i have only 2 issues with the iaa

    1 they don´t tell us what´s going on with the doj unless it suits them and i speficaly asked whether there was direct consultation with the doj

    here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58252090&postcount=148

    and was told there wasn´t and that i´d be told if there was

    so on the matter of singing off the same hymsheet i think thats a matter of what suits them and when

    2 ther are percieved to be a closed shop and in some ways i think that this is a very correct perception

    i have a question did any non comittee members know the stuff that was deliberatly kep`t from us and that was then announced at the agm

    was shiva told for example?

    i believe that mny non iaa comitee members had been told and that simply was not fair
    either mail all the members or keep it [oisin] super sekret [/oisin]

    that said any new group is gonna be confusing for the doj and thats not gonna help


    so iaa please share what you know when you know it and try to
    stop the perception that ye have tiers of frembers (sic)ç

    Tigger, no representative group is going to relay everything to you all the time. Secondly, broadcasting everything during on-going negation is extraordinarily bad because
    • You piss off the government body enacting legislation
    • You show your hand to everyone else whilst they do not reciprocate.

    You asked about a response from teh minister and were given a fairly definitive response. You then asked the same question again somehow expecting some other answer. Politicians are not known for being swift in their dealings.


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  • #67
    extremetaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    The Warehouse wrote: »
    ...from Eirsoft. (Who was not present at the meeting)

    I believe what you meant to say was:

    "were very obviously and deliberately left out of the proceedings"


    bottom line is this - Derek burns bridges, that's just what he does.

    Ask anyone who's had any significant dealings with him, and particularly anyone who has ever posed even the slightest level of disagreement with his agenda.

    It's up you guys to wake up and smell what you're lying in!

    I just hope it happens soon and in a manner that doesn't damage the efforts that have been put in by those who aren't motivated purely by their own pocket.


  • #68
    The Warehouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


    Lemming wrote: »
    There is a world of difference between declaring you are an airsofter and providing the government with an inventory of what are classified as toys.

    The classification of airsoft devises as toys firstly does not diminish the danger that they potentially can pose.

    On that note I personally dont think that they should be classed as toys. They should be classed as hobby equipment or something similar.
    Lemming wrote: »
    Speaking as someone who has engaged the government as part of a socio-political lobbying group in the past, it is not to the general betterment of any group (nor do government particularly always like it thus having a detrimental effect on your goal) when every dealing, even whilst in progress, is broadcast.

    There is also the element of "showing your hand" to consider. Lobbying government is a bit like poker. You don't show your hand until you're ready to play. Suggestions were indeed raised at the recent IAA AGM to raise the profile of goings on, if not the minutae.

    I am glad we agree on the point of the IAA not fully showing what they are doing.
    Lemming wrote: »
    Really? What are these other two groups? First I've heard. The IASRA are a possible for one such group. But hey, so long as we're talking about transparency knock yourself out.

    You are correct with the IASRA. As for the second group I was told in confidance and I am not the IASRA but simply an affiliate I am not required to break that confidance.
    Lemming wrote: »
    Why bring up the point of the IAA committee (outgoing) not skirmishing much? I don't think I've ever seen Derek skirmish but I don't hold that against him ...

    I think it is a very valid arguement that those representing skirmishers dont actually skirmish. I am not discussing the new committee, I am simply stating that the people who represented us were not actually one of us.
    Lemming wrote: »
    Cars have the potential to do devastating amounts of damage in the hands of either the untrained or the careless. Airsoft devices clearly don't since we are firing them at each other every other weekend.

    We are. There is the potential for those not skirmishing to cause devastating damage in the form of robberies or mental anguish to others. Not to mention what can happen if shot at something not human.
    Lemming wrote: »
    Further, cars are not toys. Airsoft devices are.
    Airsoft devices are classed as toys this does not mean they are not dangerous if misused.


  • #69
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    The Warehouse wrote: »
    Bang. Nail on the head right there. Transperancy, where is it? If the IAA is singlehandly responsible for saving our sport I can only assume that it is from 1 meeting with the oppositation as that is all I know about.

    Just to correct you there -- We've never claimed to be solely responsible for 'saving' airsoft. Airsoft is not saved (yet). If it is, it will be only through unified representation from the community, be it from the IAA or not. A retailer association does not represent the players or the community.
    The Warehouse wrote: »
    On the flip side I know of 2 other groups that have been speaking to the DoJ in relation to Airsoft.
    A quick look on the main page shows a comment from the minister saying that "That Bill will also tackle comprehensively the issue of airsoft guns, including making their possession in public a serious offence"

    From this the IAA says "We have been working hard in conjunction with the Department of Justice for many months now to form a set of proposals, and the minister’s comments would seem to indicate that these exact proposals are being taken onboard in the drafting of the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill."

    How do they make that leap? I have no idea. "possession in public a serious offence" thats a bit of a no brainer really. It is something that I know another group has stated to the DoJ on many occasions.

    Firstly, you're talking about several groups who've been in contact with the DoJ, and say the IAA have not been transparent? This doesn't add up at all. If the IAA are not transparent about their dealings, what can be said about these other groups? Can we see minutes from meetings? Can we see communications, and results?

    The IAA received a communication from the DoJ stating that the MPB would contain legislation in line with our recommendations. We do not have permission to reproduce this comunication publically, although several of our affiliates, and all attendees at our AGM have seen it.
    The Warehouse wrote: »
    I have had limited contact with the IAA so far. The 1st time I met them was at HRTA. It was from someone who was not there to play. They asked me for 35 euro to represent me. I declined as I had no clue who they were or what they would do with my money. At this stage I know more about them but I still would not join as I still dont know what they would do with my cash.

    The second time I met them it was by my invitation at the stress test. This time one of them played one game and then they left without them discussing what they actually do.

    The third time was only recently (After the meeting of the new organisation) again by my invitation to the site where they gave me a copy of thier proposals to the DoJ. I asked them if they would like to try out the site and they declined. I asked them what they currently do or have done for other venues/retailers and without going into detail or exact words the asnwer was minimal.

    That is fine I am ok with this. From my dealings with them I am basing my opinion on them. The IAA is there for the skirmishers while being run by those that dont skirmish alot. Commercial interests are not represented in thier meetings and as a result not much is being done for them. Again thats fine by me.

    Have to stop you there again. I was one of the two IAA representatives who visited your site on saturday afternoon last. We had a long and detailed and productive chat about what we are doing and intend to do for our affiliates. We talked about concerns you had, and our plans for the future. You said you were satisfied and would be in touch, and we gave you our contact details. Both myself and Steve had our gear with us, and would have played a game if invited, which we were not invited to do.

    It may interest you to know that I had spent that morning at one of our affiliated sites with a journalist and photographer from a broadsheet newspaper, which we hope will result in a very positive piece on airsoft. I spent the day after skirmishing, and I'm already making plans for get out and skirmish day. I don't know where you get the idea that the IAA is run by people who don't skirmish regularly.

    The most important thing that can be for airsoft right now is legitimacy. We need to walk before we can run. We outlined what we are doing, and what we plan to do, and right now it's make the sport legitimate in the eyes of the law. Only then can we start to focus our efforts completely on what we can do for commercial interests.


  • #70
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    The Warehouse wrote: »
    I am glad we agree on the point of the IAA not fully showing what they are doing.
    You are correct with the IASRA. As for the second group I was told in confidance and I am not the IASRA but simply an affiliate I am not required to break that confidance.

    As you'll find IASRA doing as well at some point (not showing their hand fully). Indeed, I never heard about any such meeting until this morning nor have we seen the output. Nor this second group who we all allegedly don't know about yet you're perfectly happy to allow them speak for you whilst claiming the IAA are being secretive.

    H.y.p.o.c.r.i.t.e.
    I think it is a very valid arguement that those representing skirmishers dont actually skirmish. I am not discussing the new committee, I am simply stating that the people who represented us were not actually one of us.

    In that case, how about lumping Derek and a few others in there as well? No?

    H.y.p.o.c.r.i.t.e.


  • #71
    Puding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    sorry can i get this straight, we argue till where blue in teh face and defend airsoft as being perfectly safe, to politicians, radio shows and papers, and then people want to come along and argue that its not safe as a cover for bringing in right control over where you can buy that amounts to a monopoly/cartel......


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  • #72
    Dr_Pepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Dr_Pepper


    So much for transperancy, the list of attendees has been removed.
    http://www.irishairsoftsports.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26


  • #73
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,141 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    I kind of think it funny

    8; 10 Trevor asks Derek dose every skirmisher need to join the association, Derek replies yes in order to buy airsoft devices

    Who in the **** does this guy think he is?

    Two chances of that happening.

    And no way they going to be getting information on my kit.

    This stinks to high heaven, and just from reading the name of the person steamrolling behind it, but its enough for me not to touch it with a bargepole.


  • #74
    Lomarticus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭Lomarticus


    Rant:
    (no offense intended btw..)

    Regarding a previous post...
    "IAA do not share out your personal information to the authorities
    IASRA will.
    If you have nothing to hide and use your equipment in a responsible manner what is the problem?"


    I'm personally not interested in scary "why, do you have something to hide?" threats and a lot of people will be unimpressed with such an argument.
    What I have is personal information, and to anyone that asks other than the Gardai, my answer is "mind your own business".


    For example, what if I were to ask you...

    Can I have a list of all the TVs and DVDs, stereo equipment etc. in your possession?
    Can I have a list of all the web-sites/magazines you subscribe to?
    If not, why not?
    If you are a law-abiding person you shouldn't have any problem with this should you?
    Do you have something to hide? eh?

    It wouldn't be very nice if I had the power to threaten someone to reveal private information "or else" now would it?

    What AEGs we have is no more your business than what you have in your house is ours.

    (Yes, I take privacy and data protection VERY seriously).
    /rant over


  • #75
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Dr_Pepper wrote: »
    So much for transperancy, the list of attendees has been removed.
    http://www.irishairsoftsports.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26

    It's ok I have a list of them backed up ;)


  • #76
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,141 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Lomarticus wrote: »
    Rant:
    (no offense intended btw..)

    "re: IAA do not share out your personal information to the authorities
    IASRA will.
    If you have nothing to hide and use your equipment in a responsible manner what is the problem?"

    Not interested in scary "why, do you have something to hide?" threats and a lot of people will be unimpressed with such an argument.

    What we have is personal information, and to anyone that asks other than the Gardai, my answer is "mind your own business".

    For example...
    Can I have a list of all the TVs and DVDs, stereo equipment etc. in your possession?
    Can I have a list of all the web-sites/magazines you subscribe to?
    If not, why not?
    If you are a law-abiding person you shouldn't have any problem with this should you?
    Do you have something to hide? eh?
    (Wouldn't be very nice if I had the power to threaten someone to reveal private information "or else" would it?)

    What AEGs we have is no more your business than what you have in your house is ours.

    (Yes, I take privacy and data protection VERY seriously).

    /rant over


    So what happens when I get a new AEG, am I allowed use it before its registered? How long will it take? Or will i be waiting ages to get it resgistered?

    Thats just the obviously simple points.

    So an organisation has all the information on my aeg's and my devices. So for example, say I have 50 rifles, 10 sniper rifles and 20 pistols.

    And for whatever reason this information goes out, as information always does, then theres a local residents assosiation having a canary because i look like a terrorist.

    There is a HUGE problem with this idea, so obvious i cant believe your even asking what it is?

    I'm pretty sure if everyone in my housing estate, knew I had Airsoft equipment in my house, they'd become very wary of me, their preception would change. As innocent as I am, and only using them in the legal means they are intended too, an instant perception would be created.

    Anyway like I said, this isnt some organisation we have to join, its some bogey setup with behind the scenes intentions. And even if it wasnt, they couldnt have picked a worse person in the world to lead this organisation then Adolf himself.

    Again main point being, you dont have to join this organisation, for the time being. And I cant see them ever becoming an offical lawful means of distributing airsoft equipment.

    So for the time being i think ill stick with the iaa, where i dont have to expose my anus to a bloke who causes more problems in airsoft then anything else.


  • #77
    Lomarticus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭Lomarticus


    To Doc...
    Not sure from your reply if you didn't understand me, or are agreeing with me... but I'm on the side of NOT providing my AEG list, just in case there was any misunderstanding.
    My example is just showing how absurd it is of them to request such info in the first place.


  • #78
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,141 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    o right, yeah thats what im with, epic,

    on that note im bowing out :P


  • #79
    The Warehouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


    Lemming wrote: »
    As you'll find IASRA doing as well at some point (not showing their hand fully). Indeed, I never heard about any such meeting until this morning nor have we seen the output. Nor this second group who we all allegedly don't know about yet you're perfectly happy to allow them speak for you whilst claiming the IAA are being secretive.

    H.y.p.o.c.r.i.t.e.

    I am not a representative of the IASRA. I am speaking from my personal experience of what happened at that meeting which was published online.

    As for the second group they were a private business representing themselves. I never said that they were representing myself or others in the airsoft community. If a legitimate business wants to speak with the government then that's their concern not mine or yours.

    This new Association from what I can see represents my concerns better then the IAA from my dealings with both sides.

    I started to post in this thread to explain why people were invited and what happened and was discussed at the meeting.

    I am being as transparent as I possibly can be so calling me names seems a bit counter producitve no?

    Lemming wrote: »
    In that case, how about lumping Derek and a few others in there as well? No?
    H.y.p.o.c.r.i.t.e.

    Its funny to me that you latched on to derek and seem happy to throw him to the wolves. I have bought equipment from him many a time and have never had an issue legal or otherwise with him. He was one person that was at the meeting not the be all and end all of it (Nor will he be)

    It seems to me that the IAA have a personal gripe with this indivual and as a result want to lump the whole organisation. As I have said there were alot of people in the airsoft community at this meeting that I respect for what they have done for the sport. Some have posted in this thread.

    I can understand that IAA members want to see the IAA succeed and I do to (so far as the security of the sport). Myself and the other partners that are behind The Warehouse went to the meeting with an open mind and were convinced by those present that this was the best course of action for the future of the sport.

    Again I must stress that at this point the minister was stating that the sport would be banned shortly. Ofcourse I would like to save my business. Would you have refused to go to the meeting if you were in my shoes.

    If it turns out that this organisation dosent hold true to the ideals it was created on then we have no issues with calling it a farce and leaving. I do not see this happening and I want to state that we are not a part of any of the "Clicks" that seem to be forming (and have formed) around airsoft.

    I am not interested in the politic of airsoft. I want to see this sport succeed as a player 1st and as a business 2nd. I wont be responding for the rest of the day as I will be busy and will address questions aimed at me.


  • #80
    Dar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    Sorry, I try to avoid quote tennis these days but this really annoyed me.
    IAA is not a commercial body whose core interest is the profits of its members
    IASRA is.
    Funny seeing as you have to pay the IAA to have a voice.

    IAA has provided means for individuals to submit their opinions, comments nd ideas in order to influence the direction of airsoft and the proposals to the DoJ.
    Gotta pay the man 1st right?

    You seem to have to glossed over a very important fact. The IAA is a non-profit body. No committee member is paid a penny. No member is paid a penny. No affiliate is paid a penny. There are no employees. All funds collected are used to fund the organisation itself. Every member who attended the AGM got a full financial breakdown.

    Quite the opposite of making money, most of the lads are out of pocket for expenses because they either choose not to claim them or couldn't produce receipts. Let me repeat that: Most of the lads paid their own money, and used their own time to represent the people of this community.
    IAA have never demanded a list of what you own
    As they dont care once you have paid your membership fee.
    IASRA do as we do care what happens once you leave the store.

    Yes of course, because a non-profit body whose officers don't get paid, whose books are open to the revenue and whose members get a full breakdown of how monies are spent is clearly motivated entirely by greed.


  • #81
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,141 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    I would be a person who would say, **** politics lets play"

    But there is an element to it there, and an element that will always remain. Its like our own little eastenders and i find it entertaining to say the least.

    But as to the reason why the Derek has this rep against him, is because he has built it himself, its his own fault.

    I am not going to say exactly cause it will jsut fuel things more, but hes been an absolute menace to me personally having to deal with **** he has done,caused,implied etc etc etc

    So anything with his name on it will be avoided like the plague by me.


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  • #82
    Beast ASI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭Beast ASI


    Rooky, I'm sorry, but UKARA is corrupt, and it cares for *nothing* about players, and all it's formed is for retailers to make more money and as a result of this, it's restricted the growth of the UK airsoft community considerably.

    They are not a UK governing body in the slightest. They were formed to save their own asses, not players.


  • #83
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    The Warehouse wrote: »
    Firstly I want to say that the following names on that list were representatives of The Warehouse/Airsoft Reloaded.

    Peter (Myself) AKA Kiwi
    Brian
    Bert

    I was contacted by someone in the Airsoft community that I have had absolutely no issues with in the past and invited to a meeting to try and save our sport. (This was before the IAA announced that they alone have saved our sport)

    Why should I as someone with both a financial and other* interests in the sport decline such a meeting?

    *(Anyone who knows me can tell you that I live breath and sleep airsoft)

    Thats fine, you are confirming that this is primarally a commercial organisation. If thats the case then that is what you should be putting forward not a charade that you actually represent the players.
    Easy. Restricting the sales is the wrong statement there. We as players are free to purchase airsoft devices from international dealers and shops as you see fit. The only restriction there is that they must be under 1J as per the law in this country.

    If you want to purchase from a shop then what harm is it to know that the shop if following a very strict set of rules.

    But there are rules. By law you have to sell under 1 joule?
    If you want to purchase from a shop that does not care what you do with the AEG or if there selling the hot AEG's then I personally don't want to meet you.

    Given the instigator of this new commercial organisation actually started his disagreement with the IAA because of his supply of hot devices I find this slightly ironic.
    Restricting the ownership to members of the affiliation ensures that only those who have an understanding of what the devices are and what you can/cannot do with them will have them.

    By placing a restriction on people purchasing them. Especially those who have concern about privacy issues with a Database and an extensive one at that being held on all their devices etc?

    What information will be on this database?

    How will it be secured?

    Who will have access to it?

    How are the people who have access to it vetted?
    On that note I would like to point out that there was something very important missing from those minutes.

    Membership for a player is free. Membership is paid for by the affiliates of the association.

    Well that makes sense you are bottlenecking players into joining, getting free marketing information on them. That's a quite valuable commodity isn't it.
    Why should you as players have to pay to secure the future of your sport while the commercial end does not pay.

    Well the choice is clear from my point of view.

    For €30 per year you can have an organisation that is voluntary and is not funded or run directly by commercial interests who will have their own agenda ie profit.


    Again the database is to ensure that only those who know what an airsoft device is and what they are allowed to do with it have them.

    It ensures that if you are acting the git with an AEG or have an overpowered AEG it can be tracked to the retailer that sold it to you.

    Again who has oversight on this. Retailers, Distributors, Site Owners. What actual guarantees are there that this data will not be misused?
    The database is not there to track your movements or to spam your in box. It was designed as a measure to give the DOJ more oversight on the size of the sport as a whole and to see who has an AEG.

    E.G. If some known criminal decides to start bulk buying Glocks then they know that something might be happening.

    Lets face it guys the DOJ dont give a damb about our sport the only issue they have with airsoft is how realistic the devices look.

    If we can give the DOJ a helping hand in this then whats the problem.

    Have the DoJ actually asked for these measures? Have they been suggested to them? If this happened before your meeting on what authority were these representations made?
    The decision on who to invite was not mine and personally I do not agree with who was missing from the meeting.

    I have since spoken to some of those who were not invited and assured them that they would have no issues joining. I will stand behind any retailer, venue or anyone else who says that they will abide by the laws of this country.

    Who invited people? Please name the person or persons who did the inviting?
    The DoJ. I have no issues with them knowing that I own AEG's. I am a law abiding citizen and have no ulterier motives for owning AEG's. Do you?

    I have an issue having my information in the hands of someone who has quite spectacularly flown off the handle.
    Bang. Nail on the head right there. Transperancy, where is it? If the IAA is singlehandly responsible for saving our sport I can only assume that it is from 1 meeting with the oppositation as that is all I know about.

    This from someone who had a secret meeting that claims to be representing all the players of airsoft where only "selected" people were invited to massage the agenda of the organiser?

    Whatever argument you and others had about transparency was blown out of the water last Thursday!
    On the flip side I know of 2 other groups that have been speaking to the DoJ in relation to Airsoft.

    Thats fine people can make representations all they like. However I do not want an organisation that is clearly skewed towards the commercial interests stating they represent me. You do not and based on the proposals put forward at your selected secretive meeting will never represent my interests.
    A quick look on the main page shows a comment from the minister saying that "That Bill will also tackle comprehensively the issue of airsoft guns, including making their possession in public a serious offence"

    From this the IAA says "We have been working hard in conjunction with the Department of Justice for many months now to form a set of proposals, and the minister’s comments would seem to indicate that these exact proposals are being taken onboard in the drafting of the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill."

    How do they make that leap? I have no idea. "possession in public a serious offence" thats a bit of a no brainer really. It is something that I know another group has stated to the DoJ on many occasions.

    Which group?

    All I know from being involved with another campaigning organisation in the past is you do not publish everything you do, every meeting you take part in, every detail that is discussed. That is reality. I am confident getting to know the IAA guys that they have concentrated their efforts in the right areas.
    I have had limited contact with the IAA so far. The 1st time I met them was at HRTA. It was from someone who was not there to play. They asked me for 35 euro to represent me. I declined as I had no clue who they were or what they would do with my money. At this stage I know more about them but I still would not join as I still dont know what they would do with my cash.

    What do you expect them to do with €35 blow it on coke and hookers?
    The second time I met them it was by my invitation at the stress test. This time one of them played one game and then they left without them discussing what they actually do.

    The third time was only recently (After the meeting of the new organisation) again by my invitation to the site where they gave me a copy of thier proposals to the DoJ. I asked them if they would like to try out the site and they declined. I asked them what they currently do or have done for other venues/retailers and without going into detail or exact words the asnwer was minimal.

    Well as I stated they do their work on a voluntary basis so they cannot spread themselves wide and thin I guess. I will leave them to answer this for themselves.

    You also invited me to the test and I unfortunately didn't get a chance to go. I actually didn't reply so apologies here and thanks for the invite.
    That is fine I am ok with this. From my dealings with them I am basing my opinion on them. The IAA is there for the skirmishers while being run by those that dont skirmish alot. Commercial interests are not represented in thier meetings and as a result not much is being done for them. Again thats fine by me.

    As someone who now has commercial interests in Airsoft I need to look for a group that is going to represent me. If you want to bycot my site for this then yes I will consider you narrow minded.

    And as a player I feel your organisation is being headed by a person with an agenda to limit the choice to players and form a cartel. I base this on my dealings with him and mine and others experiences of how he operates.
    This was a proposal that I personally thought would work for the DoJ.

    Let me give you an example.

    Cars are legal.
    Cars can do alot of damage if misused.
    To drive a car correctly you need to know the rules. Hence the licence.
    Driving a car without a licence is illegal.

    AEG's are legal
    AEG's can do alot of damage if misused.
    "Our Proposal" To use an AEG correctly you need to know the rules. Hence the free membership.
    Buying an AEG without free membership is illegal.

    And again I would like to point out that this meeting and these proposals was all before the minister said that he is introducing controlls. Let me remind you all of what he said before this. Airsoft will be banned!

    Firstly an AEG cannot do a lot of damage. It can do perceived damage but the device itself cannot. Your proposal is to create a cartel and a government/DoJ sponsored one at that? If a new business wants to open up it sounds like they have to join the cartel.

    No I have not seen what the IAA have done. If its the IAA proposals that come through in the MP bill then I will retract my statment. Until then it could be the proposals of any the groups I know are talking to them.

    If it does will you pay the monumental amount of €35 and take the chance they may blow it?
    Yes I do know who was at the meeting. Alot of people that I respect in the airsoft community. They were invited like me to try and save the sport as we had no clue what the IAA was doing.

    There were also people I respect who were not at the meeting. This I dont agree with as I have stated before.

    Yes there were people who obviously were excluded because of a personal agenda. Do you think setting up of a new organisation with the aim of ringfencing customers in a cartel without including all retailers is ideal, is warranted? Again what were the parameters for inclusion in the "club"?

    It obviously was not for the interest of ALL who want to perserve airsoft as a past time we love.
    The person you are refering to has a legitimat interest in ensuring the future of our sport. Personal issues should be left out of this discussion.

    That person stated that he did not have any issues with compatition and in fact encouraged it. I can attest to the fact that other retailers were there.

    If that was the case why were the other retailers not invited? Did you not think about asking that?
    The fact that you can read what was discussed at the meeting online shows to me that already the new organisation is more transperent than the IAA.

    The IAA had minutes of their AGM up the day after the event took place.

    The fact the notes from your meeting have been edited to exclude the members names really bodes well to the transparency argument as well.

    I completely disagree with you. As a founder of this I will be striving for the improvement of airsoft for all involved. Players, retailers, venues and anyone involved in airsoft.

    Well you have failed already. You are a commercial organisation with express view of pushing an agenda from someone who is discredited already in my eyes.


  • #84
    horgan_p
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    The Warehouse wrote: »

    Its funny to me that you latched on to derek and seem happy to throw him to the wolves. I have bought equipment from him many a time and have never had an issue legal or otherwise with him. He was one person that was at the meeting not the be all and end all of it (Nor will he be)

    I'll ask again , how many commercial bodies at that meeting buy equipment or supplies from derek ??

    Or better again , what do all the retailers who werent invited have in common ??

    From reading the minutes of the meeting it seems very much that he was in fact the end all and be all.

    This is a cartel, nothing more.


  • #85
    MAD Ozzie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭MAD Ozzie


    Yea all 5 or 6 of them, by the look of it.
    And don't give out to the Wharehouse to much lads, he hasn't known (D) for as long as most.
    Have you heard the saying that, (First impressions last)
    Well lets just say his first impression has lasted.


  • #86
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    MAD Ozzie wrote: »
    And don't give out to the Wharehouse to much lads, he hasn't known (D) for as long as most.

    Tbh I am trying not to and I do realise that he is doing what he thinks is best for his business.

    Unfortunately it is very hard to stomach what is being said about transparency and wanting what's best for all airsofters when what has been set up is a very selective group with a clear agenda to forward a cartel in the Irish Airsoft Community based on one ego's flawed vision.

    I am extremely disappointed if some of the names on the list of attendees actually agreed with what was discussed. Maybe they were panicked into attending and taking part in the meeting?


  • #87
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    I'll wish the IASRA good luck on their way. I do however have serious misgivings about their approach, their vision, their intended path, and the motivation behind it all.


  • #88
    extremetaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭extremetaz


    gandalf wrote: »
    I am extremely disappointed if some of the names on the list of attendees actually agreed with what was discussed. Maybe they were panicked into attending and taking part in the meeting?

    agreed on both points.

    scaremongering is definitely in use to twist people towards dividing the community - not that that's unfamiliar territory, but I really expected that people who have actually got investments to loose would have had a better look into who exactly they're dealing with.

    and as for the one-the-fence brigade - as far as the IAA is concerned, I really would love to know exactly what it is that hasn't been done that could have been done with the resources present. You people really are unbelievable. You do nothing yourselves yet hold nothing but suspicion over those who actually do - you disgust me, and if I didn't know that there are people in the community worth putting in the effort for, I'd have stopped having anything to do with airsoft a very long time ago.


  • #89
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,280 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    extremetaz wrote: »
    agreed on both points.

    scaremongering is definitely in use to twist people towards dividing the community - not that that's unfamiliar territory, but I really expected that people who have actually got investments to loose would have had a better look into who exactly they're dealing with.

    and as for the one-the-fence brigade - as far as the IAA is concerned, I really would love to know exactly what it is that hasn't been done that could have been done with the resources present. You people really are unbelievable. You do nothing yourselves yet hold nothing but suspicion over those who actually do - you disgust me, and if I didn't know that there are people in the community worth putting in the effort for, I'd have stopped having anything to do with airsoft a very long time ago.

    Bit harsh..?

    People are always gonna be wary of things...even if theres actually nothing

    to be wary of in the case of the IAA...it's just the way people are.


  • #90
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    extremetaz wrote: »
    agreed on both points.

    scaremongering is definitely in use to twist people towards dividing the community - not that that's unfamiliar territory, but I really expected that people who have actually got investments to loose would have had a better look into who exactly they're dealing with.

    and as for the one-the-fence brigade - as far as the IAA is concerned, I really would love to know exactly what it is that hasn't been done that could have been done with the resources present. You people really are unbelievable. You do nothing yourselves yet hold nothing but suspicion over those who actually do - you disgust me, and if I didn't know that there are people in the community worth putting in the effort for, I'd have stopped having anything to do with airsoft a very long time ago.

    That's hardly called for. The IAA is a voluntary body. We want to legitimise airsoft because we play. If it could be legitimised with zero reward, then that's all I personally can ask for. I don't expect reward, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

    Structured and lively discourse on the correct way to do things is essential in any functional community. People are going to disagree with you, people are going to be wrong, you're going to be wrong. People have their own agendas, and there's no use getting worked up about it. All we can do is do the best we can, and hope to make a difference.

    It's not important that I have everyone blowing smoke up my ass about how great I am, it's important that I get the job done. It's not my job to assassinate people's characters, since I'm sure nature will take its course eventually. In the end, the level of work gone in, the level of professionalism and the intent will speak for itself in both cases.


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  • #91
    Fallschirmjager
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,341 ✭✭✭Fallschirmjager


    People need to realise that voting has consequences and that applies to organisations as well. I noticed that the new organisation was created with no dissenting voice, not one. well so be it, you want to wield your power i will wield mine, my wallet.

    I truly cannot believe that people think a 2nd organisation competing in the same small pool is a good thing. To form a second organisation, at this time, well is quite frankly, suicidal and really exposes us all as very immature. A 2nd organisation now, does not show to the DOJ any positives, if you believe it does, may i suggest a long hard think before you post. By way of example, suppose the DOJ, meet the IAA at 9am and the IASRA at 10, both raising competing ideas? How can you possibly think that is going to show Airsoft in a good light? How can you possibly think Airsoft will profit from this move?
    SO lets suppose the IASRA doesnt satisfy all its members issues (wake up call number 1...it wont) ? what then, a third group, a fourth?? Why dont each of us all just form our own airsoft group and all goto the DOJ?? It is inevitable when a group of people meet to form an alliance, you have to compromise, you have to give ground, you have to accept some unpalatable things to get something completed. I wish some would realise that here but i guess they were sick that week in school when it was covered.

    The timing of this is also just amazing. Right bang in the middle of a bill, that the IAA has done all the heavy lifting on issues that are not glamorous, are not motivational, but are about survival, a new group appears with selective membership, with little or no advertisment, targetting no doubt the disaffected.

    I would encourage everyone to read their minutes. Some of the suggestions are very disturbing.

    I am curious that meeting with the DOJ have happened BEFORE the group was formed, wow democroacy Hugo Chavez could learn from, you should be proud.

    I see some people here do not see a problem, i am sorry there is no such thing as a free lunch. This is about you. there is no more standing on the sidelines, or walking the white line in the middle of the road. a choice has to be made, you cannot have it both ways. If you believe you can, you are either naive or have some other agenda.

    We need to really wake up. No organisation is perfect, in fact they are all a pain in the ass, but they are necessary. We have an organisation, flawed no doubt, but it is ours, players and sellers, each with one vote. If you feel that you as a consumer would prefer a sellers organisation, feel free to join, i am sure you will be welcome to make up the numbers. I for one will accept their preamble and minutes and what they say on the website. They dont want my business, fine, so be it...they shall not have it.

    I too want the names of the companies that feel that I as a player do not matter or are somehow superfluous to requirements. If you voted for the new organisation and they all did, you have made your choice, and you have forced me to make mine. Gandalf would you be so kind as to post who attended. I will begin right now exercising my right as a consumer even if that means going without christmas presents.

    this is truly a bleak day in airsoft. one where greed has gotten the better of people. as i have said many times before on this...choose, but choose wisely...


This discussion has been closed.
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