The IAA, "The Shop" and the other organisation - Moved from the PQ Thread

ravey

[This was moved from the PQ thread as it brought an important issue to the front that needs to be discussed. This is the so-called set up of a second organisation that seems to be representing a limited number of retailers - Gandalf]

Certainly a welcome step forward in terms of recognition and response.
Well done those concerned.
But can anyone tell me where on earth this "split" business started and why all airsofters dont just row in with this association and get their points across in a structured manner?
I had a great morning today at HRTA and then went to Blanchardstown to "The Shop that Cannot be named" and i have to say that in both places i have met terrific people. Brilliantly helpful and encouraging in every aspect of the sport as a whole except for the "Same Hymnsheet Debate" which i as a newcomer dont get. Whats the main differences between the two sides? Was it from ages ago? Can we mend it?
Surely a single association is a better way forward.
If this cant be discussed on boards, could some reasonably unbiased person perhaps conact me directly and give me some idea of the background to this.
We are seriously looking at setting up a venue close to the city and on a bus route.......but we aint gonna move until we see what way the cookies gonna crumble with the DoJ.
Once again, well done and keep it up.

OzCam

Didn't you know? The first item on the agenda of any Irish organisation (sometimes even before they've got going properly) is The Split.

The short version is that they were banned for causing trouble, one of the mods went out on a limb to get them reinstated, and they caused trouble again. The second ban came from the site admins, not the mods.

We're just a cynical bunch in this country. Every group contains those who just want to know "what's in it for me". It's a fact of life in this benighted nation.

Airsoft is a very young sport here. Some players wanted to see what, if anything, the IAA could do for it. That's a semi-reasonable stance. I'm glad that things seem to be working out well (touch wood) so more might join in the near future.

As for opening a site, talk to the warehouse guys first to get an idea of the hurdles you face. It'll save you a couple of months. Cheapest pints you ever bought.

gerrowadat

ravey wrote: »

Certainly a welcome step forward in terms of recognition and response.
Well done those concerned.
But can anyone tell me where on earth this "split" business started and why all airsofters dont just row in with this association and get their points across in a structured manner?
I had a great morning today at HRTA and then went to Blanchardstown to "The Shop that Cannot be named" and i have to say that in both places i have met terrific people. Brilliantly helpful and encouraging in every aspect of the sport as a whole except for the "Same Hymnsheet Debate" which i as a newcomer dont get. Whats the main differences between the two sides? Was it from ages ago? Can we mend it?
Surely a single association is a better way forward.
If this cant be discussed on boards, could some reasonably unbiased person perhaps conact me directly and give me some idea of the background to this.
We are seriously looking at setting up a venue close to the city and on a bus route.......but we aint gonna move until we see what way the cookies gonna crumble with the DoJ.
Once again, well done and keep it up.

Speaking strictly for myself, I'm as mystified as you are.

The formation of a second airsoft 'association' made up solely of people with commercial interests is deeply troubling and baffling to me. All it does is create division within the community, weaken our ties with the DoJ as a community, and reduce the effectiveness of the work done by the IAA, as well as people like stone.cold who went out on a limb to help the sport.

This is a terrible idea, especially at this critical time in the IAAs dealings with the DoJ. A body represented by commercial interests that seeks to exclude players not willing to sign up lacks credibility, and will only damage the sport for the rest of us. This leaves us open to having this body becoming the UKARA of Ireland, and we saw what this did to Airsoft there.

A number of people who were at this meeting have our mobile numbers, and our mailbox is always open. If Derek or anyone else on this new body wanted to sit down and talk about our differences, the opportunity has been open to them for a very long time now. However, for whatever reason, they've chosen to not talk to us, and to damage the community and the sport with this ridiculous farce.

There will be an official IAA statement on our website later, and we will be bringing up this body in our upcoming meetings with the DoJ. Lets hope we can mitigate any damage that has already been done.

MAD Ozzie

(QUOTE) (The short version is that they were banned for causing trouble, one of the mods went out on a limb to get them reinstated, and they caused trouble again. The second ban came from the site admins, not the mods).

Follow trouble, and you will get trouble.

Well done to the IAA lads and Stone Cold for all there efforts.

o1s1n

As far as boards.ie is concerned, if you repeatedly cause trouble on here you will have your access removed. It's as simple as that.

Some people think that because of who they are in a community, they can throw their weight around and get away with more. These people are sadly mistaken. Everyone on this forum must abide by the same rules set down by the admins.

What happened with the IAA was really nothing to do with this place. Some people just don't like authority. Be it moderators on a forum or the IAA committee. It carries over.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand folks!

Puding

This is a terrible idea, especially at this critical time in the IAAs dealings with the DoJ. A body represented by commercial interests that seeks to exclude players not willing to sign up lacks credibility, and will only damage the sport for the rest of us. This leaves us open to having this body becoming the UKARA of Ireland, and we saw what this did to Airsoft there.

Could not agree more the iaa may not be perfect but at least it has tried to represent everyone be them iaa members or none members and protect the sport of airsoft for everyone, any body that wants to put in place controls that mean people 'have' to be part of it to play is a step to far.

People complain about the ukara but this would be even worse, at least in the uk you are still free to shop and import from where ever you want as long as you can conform to the statutory defense of before skirmisher.

You may not like the iaa but at least there proposals would allow all to carry on playing, and there not just looking after there own.

gandalf

What went on between the IAA and MIA is a separate issue totally to their exclusion from this forum. I disagreed totally between both sides on this issue and campaigned strongly for them both to get together and sort out their issues. Just check the IAA forums (if the post still exists on there).

If you create trouble, repeatly snipe, start threads with one single negative agenda, set up duplicate accounts, make promises to mods that you don't keep you get banned from boards. If you then get your staff to set up threads with the explicit intention of shilling your business continue to set up duplicate accounts then all mention of your business is removed. I really don't see why people see this man as a hero for the sport. The defense on the Joe Duffy program recently was because his affiliate in Cork put out an idiotic and damaging advertisement in the Cork version of the Metro. He was defending his business.

At the AGM last year (2007) there was a group being led by Derek. Their explicit aim was to align the IAA with the Real Steel Shooting fraternity. I have no doubt if this happened we would now be facing an outright ban as well. If there is a second association being initiated and this is one of their goals then it will end in disaster. I suggest the instigators of this group think about their actions logically and step back. If you want to protect airsoft then you join the IAA and change it from within as a member.

If your agenda is to lump Airsoft in with Real Steel then continue on your path but it will be the unravelling of our sport.

Shiva

gandalf wrote: »

I suggest the instigators of this group think about their actions logically and step back. If you want to protect airsoft then you join the IAA and change it from within as a member.

I found it amusing that Eirsoft.ie, Airsofteire.com, Cork Airsoft and SE Airsoft were not invited to this initial meeting. Is it because we're all existing IAA affiliates ?
Actually, no...I dont think so....Because there were IAA affiliates present.

For an organisation purporting to represent the commercial interests of the sport, I find it amusing that three four of the largest and/or longest established retailers in the country were specifically excluded from this meeting. I'd suggest its because all of us are independently doing well, and dont rely on any Irish based distributor and wholesaler of Airsoft goods to supply us with stock. In other words ladies and gents....We'd be able to stand up and tell certain founding members of this organisation where to stick it if he tried to pull a fast one without fear of repercussion. Is that why we werent invited ?

In the interest of fairness, I'll point out that I made a few phone calls over the last few days, and I've been assured by anyone I spoke to connected with this organisation that there would be absolutely no barrier to me or the other retailers joining if we chose to. But I havent yet received an answer as to why we werent invited in the first place - I'd still like to have that answer.

Its not exactly a good advertisement for your organisation if, right from the get-go, you're doing exactly what the IAA get accused of doing I.E. Forming cliques and excluding people.

Y'all need to have yourselves a little think about your reasons for doing this, and who's behind it. I'd certainly want specific answers to specific questions before I'd be turning against an organisation thats been campaigning for two years on our behalf, and now seeing the results of that campaigning bear fruit.

EDIT: I was under the impression SE Airsoft were invited, but chose not to attend, which is why I initially omitted them from the list above. As it happens, they too were not invited. So that makes four major retailers who weren't invited.

Yeah....sounds like a fair and balanced stab at representing airsoft alright. This is farcical. I reiterate...ask yourselves what exactly the aims of this organisation are before you join, folks.

Lomarticus

I am an Airsoft player and a purchaser of airsoft goods.
I am only interested in one thing at the moment - keeping Airsoft alive.
I do not know and am not interested in what is going on between groups.
I do not take sides.

I believe the IAA should be left to deal with the beurocracy of keeping the sport alive. It's starting to work and their efforts should not be diluted.

I believe the others should be providing us players with the best goods and the best sites they can by concentrating 100% on selling/playing/running sites or whatever and stop distracting themselves with politics.

If the IAA fails, there will be no need for shops/sites.
If the others fail, there will be no need for the IAA.

I believe all sides should stop distracting themselves and diluting their efforts.
I believe it is better to specialise in you areas of expertise and excel at them than to be involved in all aspects and achieve little or nothing on your own.


Consider this...
Airsoft is a toy, and the parent is the government.

Two children are argueing over a toy.
Neither will give it up and neither will share.

The parent is stressed from work, money problems etc.
The parent just wants the arguement to go away.
They want to get back to solving their real problems.

The two kids have shown they cannot get along.
If the parent does not stop this now it will just get worse.
The parent is not interested in bickering or explanations.
They have the authority to end this whatever way they like.
They're not bad parents but the two kids will not sort their differences.

The parent ends it all and takes the toy away forever.

Please do not be petty and bicker at this critical time.
Sort your differences and come back as one united organisation for the goods of us all.

Do not let them take our toys away.

Rhinocharge

Shiva wrote: »

I found it amusing that Eirsoft.ie, Airsofteire.com and Cork Airsoft were not invited to this initial meeting. Is it because we're all existing IAA affiliates ?
Actually, no...I dont think so....Because there were IAA affiliates present.

For an organisation purporting to represent the commercial interests of the sport, I find it amusing that three of the longest established retailers in the country were specifically excluded from this meeting.

Better make that 4, SE Airsoft was not invited either, not that we would have gone.

Hivemind187

To be honest (and mods, please feel free to remove this post if you dont like it) any legislation that would give de-facto control of the sport and access to it to commercial interests is corrupt to the sodding bone.

Venues and retailers already have huge influence over the airsoft community because they are the resources required by the average, law abiding and responsible airsofter to play the game. Any plan which puts in charge those who make a direct profit from the components or systems involved in said plan is designed to rob the individual of their right to choose.

If the government seeks to address the airsoft question by means of the same system as the UK VCRA then you may as well sell your kit tomorow since airsoft in the Republic of Ireland will die out. Despite rapid and positive growth it is still too small to survive in outlying areas which lack the infrastructure established in Dublin, Cork and Galway. People living in other areas may not be able to skirmish 3 times out of two months or whatever stipulation the powers that be (or commercial interests) place on whether you can have a "specific defence". They will cease to be airsofters. Collectors, plinkers, the unemployed, students, the disabled or any other disenfranchised group will be effectively hobbled by such controlls.

Luckily, it appears that the government has no intention of introducing such measures (at least no mention of a "specific defence" approach has been made). From what we can tell fromo the PQ's the DoJ have every intention of making the actual "brandishing" of an airsoft device in a public place a criminal offense. This means that it will no longer require someone to press charges against you - simply being a deuche and carrying it in the open will be enough to get you nicked. Age restrictions are likely to be a part of the measures too - which is great because any reputable airsoft retailer has been doing that for the last 2 years (even if they arent an affiliate of the IAA).

Putting the brakes on fly-by-night merchants and the sale of kit to minors as well as giving gardai the power to arrest and prosecute someone for brandishing an airsoft device is going to be the things that actually tackle the topical problem of airsoft being used by the irresponsible. The deeper "root" issues of poverty, poor education, limited prospects and the boredom associated with these social afflictions wont be cured by any of these and neither will the crime, urban decay and social division they cause - there will still be chavy-mongs in the morning - but at least Airsoft can't be blamed for it.

Edit: This thread was intended to cover the PQ's and their answers, not to discuss the politics being caused by certain parties.

gandalf

I have split the posts from the PQ thread because it was being dragged off topic by those posts but the topic is one that needs to be discussed here.

gandalf

As an airsofter I would like a list of the sites and retailers who attended this meeting as it may be a factor in me giving them future business.

AirsoftEire.com

We have nothing really to add other than the fact that we agree with everything that's already been said and see no need for any other airsoft commitee representing airsoft in this country, for players, retailers or otherwise. I'd love to hear more information regarding this other body, as like Shiva's said we and a few others haven't a clue what's going on at this stage...

Liam

Fallschirmjager

well i dont have any facts as to what this new group is planning so it would be unfair of me to assume anything. However there does need to be some clarification by the group as to what their plans are. I am sure it will be difficult for some to do it since they are banned, but perhaps we can be pointed to the agenda or minutes of the meeting so we can all be fair an impartial.

does anyone know where the minutes are of this meeting?

does anyone know who attended?

can we see who is on the committee and indeed how they voted (if indeed there is a committee, i am guessing there is)

Perhaps i missed it when it was advertised or is it restricted somehow?

hopefully someone can answer or at least point us in the direction?

it does seem rather curious that it was not widely announced here and elsewhere.

since i am a long term member of the vast right wing conspiracy and firmly believe in the might and power of competition, if there is no clarification of what is going on here with this new group, i too will be joining Gandalf in his quest and will use my purchasing power accordingly...

Lomarticus

gandalf wrote: »

As an airsofter I would like a list of the sites and retailers who attended this meeting as it may be a factor in me giving them future business.

I'm confused...

Why would site operators/resellers be present at a DOJ meeting with the IAA?

Surely the idea of having a representative organisation (and I presume IAA membership is open to EVERYONE to join) is that ye all...
thrash out your opinions and differences in private,
come up with proposals that satisfies the majority,
send in the IAA lads with the finished proposal to negotiate its implementation and to get the best deal possible for us all,
then let them police the agreement to make sure nobody jeopardises it.

I'm a firm believer of not washing ones laundry in public.
If everyone were present at the DOJ meetings, each looking out only for themselves, the DOJ would think we have no idea what we are doing.

o1s1n

It wasn't a meeting with the DOJ. It was a meeting of people who wish to form another Irish airsoft association. The AAI maybe? I really haven't a clue. All seems very super sekret society-ish.

gandalf

Lomarticus wrote: »

I'm confused...

Why would site operators/resellers be present at a DOJ meeting with the IAA?

I assume as an affiliate member but also to show them that there are thriving businesses that have sprung up around airsoft in the country when other businesses are shutting down.

This new group to my knowledge have not contacted the DoJ.

Surely the idea of having a representative organisation (and I presume IAA membership is open to EVERYONE to join) is that ye all...
thrash out your opinions and differences in private,
come up with proposals that satisfies the majority,
send in the IAA lads with the finished proposal to negotiate its implementation and to get the best deal possible for us all,
then let them police the agreement to make sure nobody jeopardises it.

Oh believe me so am I. I argued this out on the side of the retailer that is banned from here and at the centre of this new organisation before. I do not believe they are interested in being involved in an organisation that does not allow them push their own agenda. While there was a disagreement with the IAA I believe if they actually had the best interest of the sport in mind they would have rowed in behind it and changed it from within. They didn't because they could not control its agenda to one that matched their own goals.

I'm a firm believer of not washing ones laundry in public.
If everyone were present at the DOJ meetings, each looking out only for themselves, the DOJ would think we have no idea what we are doing.

TBH I am not sure what you mean. At this stage it is better to be open and transparent with the DoJ, the Gardai, Politicians and the media which a democratic organisation like the IAA is. Having a organisation that partially represents a narrow commercial segment of the whole sport is counter-productive and will only cause harm in the long run. I also find it quite pathetic that this so-called club of airsoft businesses are organising themselves after all the hard work has been done?

The time has come for some people to stop being selfish and to row in behind the only game in town that has represented all airsofters whether they were members or not and join the IAA. You may not like some individuals but as a member you can change the association, have your say in its actions and even step up to the mark and lead it. On the other hand if you want to see what an association run by commercial interests does then you have to look no further than the UK where airsoft is dying because of the UKARA restrictions.

Rhinocharge

http://www.irishairsoftsports.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26

Mods remove the link if you see fit.

gandalf

Rhinocharge wrote: »

http://www.irishairsoftsports.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26

Mods remove the link if you see fit.

Thanks Rhino I have noted some of the names on that list and I certainly will be removing my business from them permanently. The other names that I don't know I will do some research on and if they are connected to retailers I will be staying well clear of them as well.

This is a cowardly act as it has been set up AFTER the IAA has done all the groundwork.

Doomofman

I'm not up on who runs what shops etc... Anyone wanna post a list of the shops involved. I certainly know I don't want to be sending any of my business their way and I think others should do the same

FingalAirsoft

I was present at that meeting, and I thought that all retailers and site operators were invited.

But there where a number of sites represented as well as retailers and players and teams, and before you guys start and this thread turns into an IAA bashing thread.

There is no harm in having a second group representing themselves who don't see eye to eye or don't want to join the IAA, at least it'll let the DOJ know that there is more airsofters out there than just IAA members and affiliates.
There was also IAA affiliates present at this meeting, so what does that tell you?



Bren

PS. If your not going to attend a site just because they don't roll in behind the IAA and consider another organisation, well that's being narrow minded is it really that wrong to consider another avenue of communications with the D.O.J.

gandalf

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

I was present at that meeting, and I thought that all retailers and site operators were invited.

Well it is clear its not the case. Given the history of the driving force behind the new organisation certain retailers were obviously excluded because of personal reasons.

I would suggest is it really reasonable to have an organisation founded on such a skewed and flawed basis. Personally I think not.

But there where a number of sites represented as well as retailers and players and teams, and before you guys start and this thread turns into an IAA bashing thread.

This thread is about an organisation being set up when one already exists with contacts into the DoJ and other arms of the government and media.

As for IAA bashing tbh alot of people should be on here apologising and thanking the guys for the hard work they have done.

There is no harm in having a second group representing themselves who don't see eye to eye or don't want to join the IAA, at least it'll let the DOJ know that there is more airsofters out there than just IAA members and affiliates.
There was also IAA affiliates present at this meeting, so what does that tell you?

There is harm when proposals like this are being forwarded.

Trevor asks Derek dose every skirmisher need to join the association, Derek replies yes in order to buy airsoft devices

Well thats very interesting isn't it. So one of the proposals for this new organisation is only members can buy AEG's or GBB's.

To me it looks like an organisation that is a front for commercial interests something I know the IAA is not. I've had serious issues and disagreements with the IAA in the past but one thing I was sure of and that was they were working towards an agenda that was not only driven by profit.

Bren

PS. If your not going to attend a site just because they don't roll in behind the IAA and consider another organisation, well that's being narrow minded is it really that wrong to consider another avenue of communications with the D.O.J.

No I wouldn't consider it narrow minded at all but I do think getting involved in setting up a superfluous organisation when one exists that will halve the voice we have with the powers that be is dangerous. I especially am disappointed at your involvement as it was the IAA that cleared up all the grief a certain airsoft device that was built on your site caused with the DoJ.

This new organisation is only in existence because a certain person didn't get his way last year. Had a sissy fit because he was found selling overpowered devices and since then has been working against the legitimated recognised (now all ireland) airsoft association.

I was going to attend your site as part of the skirmish day but after this I will be steering clear.

kinkstr

The amount of bull**** associated with this sport never ceases to amaze me.

FingalAirsoft

gandalf wrote: »

Well it is clear its not the case. Given the history of the driving force behind the new organisation certain retailers were obviously excluded because of personal reasons.

I would suggest is it really reasonable to have an organisation founded on such a skewed and flawed basis. Personally I think not.



This thread is about an organisation being set up when one already exists with contacts into the DoJ and other arms of the government and media.

As for IAA bashing tbh alot of people should be on here apologising and thanking the guys for the hard work they have done.



There is harm when proposals like this are being forwarded.



Well thats very interesting isn't it. So one of the proposals for this new organisation is only members can buy AEG's or GBB's.

To me it looks like an organisation that is a front for commercial interests something I know the IAA is not. I've had serious issues and disagreements with the IAA in the past but one thing I was sure of and that was they were working towards an agenda that was not only driven by profit.



No I wouldn't consider it narrow minded at all but I do think getting involved in setting up a superfluous organisation when one exists that will halve the voice we have with the powers that be is dangerous. I especially am disappointed at your involvement as it was the IAA that cleared up all the grief a certain airsoft device that was built on your site caused with the DoJ.*

This new organisation is only in existence because a certain person didn't get his way last year. Had a sissy fit because he was found selling overpowered devices and since then has been working against the legitimated recognised (now all ireland) airsoft association. **

I was going to attend your site as part of the skirmish day but after this I will be steering clear.***

Hi Paul,

* Please clarify that statement??? What did they IAA do on my behalf as I had direct contact with the DOJ on that matter:cool:

** As a site operator I have seen overpowered devices coming from a lot of sources so why should he be tarnished with selling overpowered devices (how long ago was this?), thankfully when chronographed we don't allow the device to be played but ask the person who bought it to bring it back to the retailer to get it downgraded, but lets not go there on a public forum:rolleyes:

*** Your choice, as it is my choice to consider an alternative.

spicymchaggis

if an organisation can do something positive to help airsoft regardless of there already being one i see as a good thing if they can show results and keep airsoft legal and running.

Ghostwarrior

kinkstr wrote: »

The amount of bull**** associated with this sport never ceases to amaze me.

Here Here

TBH and I'm sure most airsofters agree, that what everyone wants is the security and freedom to pursue there hobby with no fear of it being done away with or worse restricted so that it is not as an attractive sport as it was.

these groups mentioned above seem to be doing that in there own particular way. but all i ask and all that I'm sure everyone else is asking is for whatever organization in question do the following.

1. Secure the sport
2. Do not restrict the sport


everything else can go by the wayside.


i didnt spend a lot of my hard earned money on this sport so that it can be handicapped by external forces or internal.

now I'm sue everyone can elaborate to the 9th degree on any points one organization is making but lets be honest with ourselves. if things were peachy then this thread wouldn't be here...

Now i dont care if group x joins group y or visa versa, or even if both form group z. but remember folks, when all is said and done its the actions that count.

United we stand, Divided we fall.

gandalf

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

Hi Paul,

* Please clarify that statement??? What did they IAA do on my behalf as I had direct contact with the DOJ on that matter:cool:

Whether you realise it or not. The DoJ contacted the IAA about a number of incidences and one of those was the device that was constructed on your site.

http://www.irishairsoft.ie/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=147

** As a site operator I have seen overpowered devices coming from a lot of sources so why should he be tarnished with selling overpowered devices (how long ago was this?), thankfully when chronographed we don't allow the device to be played but ask the person who bought it to bring it back to the retailer to get it downgraded, but lets not go there on a public forum:rolleyes:

This incident occured at the beginning of the year and was the catalyst to the disagreement between this retailer and the IAA.

As for the overpowered AEG situation eventhough you are not an IAA affiliate I am sure they welcome your input if the retailers who supplied the kit were. I assume you did contact either the retailer or the IAA to let them know about the situation?

*** Your choice, as it is my choice to consider an alternative.

And again I would like to ask you why are you going with this new organisation? What did the existing one not address that the new one does?

One line I find interesting from your previous post is

But there where a number of sites represented as well as retailers and players and teams

I would like to know what the parameters were to being chosen to come forward to this meeting. If they claim to represent airsoft in this country why the limited list? Why not be open and upfront and let everyone know? Did you ask why certain retailers were excluded? If so did they tell you why?

Lemming

IrishAirsoftSports post wrote:

...

7;49 Matt suggests that only retailers be able to import airsoft devices ,Derek replies that it would be very hard to control and not good for competition

...

8; 10 Trevor asks Derek dose every skirmisher need to join the association, Derek replies yes in order to buy airsoft devices

...

8; 52 Trevor asks Derek what happens when a retailer or site operator becomes a committee member, how dose that member’s shop/ Site affiliate to the association? Derek replies that it is the committees decision not one person’s decision to let a retailer/site to affiliate to the association

...

8; 55 Trevor suggests that different rules should apply to players, retailer and site operators everyone agrees

...

9; 02 Trevor asks when a player joins the association dose that player needs to disclose all the devices Derek replies yes and everyone agrees

Those were the "interesting" points for me reading through that list.

Ummm .... closed cartel shop anyone? Granted, on note of the first point Derek did state later that he didn't have a problem with people importing. But the rest of it is somewhat worrying from a non-commercial point of view;

Also, what are these different rules that should apply to the players vs. the commercial interests?

Finally, why the f*ck should I need to disclose my airsoft collection? Exactly what information are the IASRA collating to hand on to the authorities should they be either requested or deem it necessary?

Captain Chaos

We may aswell be using actual fire arms the way he is going on, UKARA eat your heart out.

So every time we buy a new GBB or AEG we must add it to a list. Next it will be what sights and silencers have you got fitted to it.:rolleyes:

Puding

I would like to see the constitution myself, i've heard rumors about it but i would like to read it first hand before i make any comments.

8; 20 Kevin suggests that the minutes from the meeting with the DOJ be posted on the new forum everyone agrees

what meeting?

7; 55 Derek puts forward a proposal that airsoft devices need to be test in joules instead of FPS

I thought they where? although this answer from derek could explain a lot about some of the devices that turn up at cork supplied by MIA

30 Kevin asks about training Derek replies that the words weapons and training will be banned from airsoft forums and magazines as both have nothing to do with airsoft

weapon yes. but training?? if we play a sport when the teams take part in training

Jay TLR

Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!

gandalf

Jay TLR wrote: »

Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!

Jay thats fine if its just an organisation that is an entity for the commercial interests but it seems to be presenting itself as a carbon copy of the IAA.

Also everthough you state the you'll never join the IAA they are still representing you. Based on the minutes posted you will not be able to purchase AEG's from the affiliates of the new organisation unless you are a member of this organisation. They also seem to want to have full details of what you own, for what purpose we don't know. To hand to the authorities, for marketing purposes?

Also given the history of one of the main drivers of this organisation I would be extremely suspect at the real intentions of its formation. Up until late summer I would have supported this person and counted myself as someone who felt the IAA was lacking without his inclusion. This changed when he showed his true colours to me. Read my responses on this thread on the IAA forum. Specifically the first 3 pages. Now ask yourself why have I changed my stance so dramatically since then?

Firstly I have seen first hand the hard work the IAA lads have put in. Secondally I stuck my neck out and got a certain person reinstated on boards who then went back on their word and continued their bad behaviour. Now I ask myself if they cannot keep their word on a simple matter what are they going to do on "our" behalf with this new organisation?

Masada

Jay TLR wrote: »

Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!

Thats not what its about,

When it all boils down to it, and you remove all the fancy words,
Its about a "certain person" throwing his toys out of the pram and refusing to swallow his pride, accept he was wrong and join the IAA. joining the IAA was "this persons" goal but he didnt want to give any promises that he wouldnt supply hot guns to people, knowingly or not.

Sooo, this person, who happens to be a supplier to some of the other shops and sites decides to start a new organisation to save face and have another stab of getting a grip on the sport.

I dont agree with boycotting sites and retailers either, i agree with you there, maybe some of them were there because they feel they supply would be threatened if they got on his bad side.

You'll notice the biggest and most independent retailers were not invited. because they have more power to tell him to f*ck off.,

kdouglas

Ghostwarrior wrote: »

these groups mentioned above seem to be doing that in there own particular way. but all i ask and all that I'm sure everyone else is asking is for whatever organization in question do the following.

1. Secure the sport
2. Do not restrict the sport

Agreed, however this new group seeks to restrict the sport by requiring anyone who buys an airsoft device to register with them, and not only that, but a record of all of your owned devices must be kept aswell.

Couple of points on that; From a technical point of view, the amount of data they want to keep is going to need a fair bit of storage space, along with a secure location to store it and off-site backups. It's going to cost a lot of money to store that kind of information securely. To be honest, I dont expect this to be executed properly at all.

Secondly, it will be a cold day in hell before I submit to giving that kind of detail to any organisation, what right do they have to know what my airsoft collection consists of? NONE

What right do they have to say who can and cant buy airsoft in this country?
NONE

I personally am wondering what kind of organisation this new body is meant to be? Why is it they want so much control over who can and cant buy and keep details of every airsoft gun owned? The words cartel and monopoly spring to my mind.

Jay TLR wrote: »

Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!

The IAA also represents retailers and sites, it represents everyone in the country who has an interest in airsoft, the committee do the work voluntarily without any financial reward and do it to secure the future of airsoft. Any new organisation run by retailers is only going to look after their own pockets.

Also, ever heard of "Vote with your feet", If you disagree with a shops policies/prices/actions... take your business elsewhere, and as consumers, we are all entitled to do exactly that.

horgan_p

Gentlemen ( and ladies) ,


If anyone ( player , retailer or skirmish site) can justify controlling the sale of airsoft devices and restricting them to the members of a "club" - lets hear it

If anyone can justify holding and keping a "census " of all the airsoft devices in the country and their owners - lets hear it
edit : never mind the small matter that most aegs dont have serial numbers.

If this doesnt make anyone here even slightly nervous , then people , you arent paying attention.

for the record neither cork airsoft shop nor the nor the cork skirmish site ( sas-c) were invited to this meeting.
for the record - i've never spoken to the people behind this club - in ANY context.

you all go on about databases and data protection - these guys want you to provide info to god knows who on which aegs you own.

you all go on that the IAA arent doing enough for you - these boys are basically going to CRIMINALISE you for not being in their "club"

you all talk about democracy - this "club" basically is a gentlemen's agreement to control the supply of airsoft gear to YOU..

you've seen what the IAA have done and continue to do.you've seen that they do not wish to control what you buy and own.

those of you who are thinkers can see who was not at that meeting ,and indeed who was at that meeting - join the dots.

those of you who know something of "the scene" know what someone tried to do to my business - practically before we opened.

most of you have been burned in one way or another by this man - how short is your memory?


The IAA dont always get everything right - but at least they dont get things this wrong.

and this new club does not serve you , the player nor me the shop owner - it serves but one person.


Thank you for your time.

Paul Horgan

Lemming

I think, after my initial post and seeing the posts since, that the best thing to do is simply push on.

If IASRA can justify & validate their existence then so be it. If they survive beyond a year, so be it. I know who will continue to get my support and it will not be any organisation seeking to create what appears to be a cartel out of bad blood & cynical PR

Nodin

kinkstr wrote: »

The amount of bull**** associated with this sport never ceases to amaze me.

Same with everything. Different issues, much the same shi/te. Might be different in some place, possibly over the rainbow....

CrazyRabbit

My god what happened to the good old days when airsofters where a tight-knit community of friends who met up on the weekend for a few hours of pure unadulterated fun?

Too much politics.
Too much backstabbing.
Too many people trying to control (including heavy moderation of what's allowed to be posted here)
Too many vested interests.
Too much bull****.

And some people asked why I am giving airsoft a long break...

Lemming

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Too many people trying to control (including heavy moderation of what's allowed to be posted here)

In fairness, whatever about the rest of it ... the moderation has been spot on in order to keep the forum in-check. It's had to have been active and heavy at times or else this place would just break down. It's happened elsewhere on boards.ie in the past where entire forums have been locked for months on end in order to gain control of out of hand behaviour.

Boards.ie isn't a democracy. It's a benign dictatorship. Free speech doesn't exist here because as much as you will be held accountable for what you say (freedom of speach also entails carrying responsibility for what you say ... ), so to will boards.ie for allowing you say it.

Edit: Anyone who thinks that free speech exists on other forums and not on boards.ie is living in fantasy land. Other forums are just as exposed as boards.ie except that if they don't actively control what's being said they wont last very long when something serious is said ...

gerrowadat

Folks,

Let's take a step back and try not to go on a witch hunt here. I'm sure some of the retailers and sites who attended either didn't know what was going on, or didn't necessarily like what was going on (from what I've heard, there was pretty vocal opposition to continuing with the meeting without certain retailers and sites present, but there you go).

I've visited sites and retailers on and off the list of attendees (and list of IAA affiliates) before, and I will again. Becoming insular and joining a 'side' is exactly what this body wants, and is exactly what the person behind it wants.

The people who were at this meeting are not our enemies. In fact, as IAA Vice-Chair I have to stand up and say that I can't blame some of our affiliates for attending. We have been so tied up in press, DoJ dealing, meetings with TDs, AGMs and other stuff (y'know, about saving the sport) that we've been somewhat neglecting our affiliates recently. This is going to change once the MPB comes out. We are confident that the bill will be favourable, which will free us up to work on stuff like marshal training, child protection training, first aid training, all of which we're currently also working on.

Let's be honest here, this organisation is driven entirely by one person, who has had a run-in with the IAA before, and sees no other recourse than to try to 'beat' us somehow. Instead of picking up the phone and talking to us in a civil manner, he's chosen to go down the path of dividing the sport, diving the players along lines of retailer, site, and business. This is a fly in the ointment, and will fizzle out when the people involved realise they're being duped.

So let's have no more talk of not associating with retailers or sites because they're involved in this body. We don't know people's motivations, and we don't have all the facts. Get out there and support your sport. Visit your nearest or favourite retailer, go to the site you like best on merit, or where your mates go. Play the sport you love, and forget all this political bull****. It only serves to damage what it is we (the community) have built with our own hands over the last few years.

Other people might have their own agenda or their own political or fiscal motivations for pulling stunts like this, but I have no time for it. I just wanna shoot.

pew pew.

DisasterIRL

I can't see the harm in having two Associations, if and only if it is gone about the right way.

Also it shouldn't harm any proposals put forward as long as before hand the two have a sit down and put aside their differences, and I don't see why they shouldn't at this stage, they now both have a valid way of expressing their differences. But a sit down is needed to cool heads, I can't imagine it would get any worse

The exclusion of people was somewhat shooting yourself in the foot, as it makes people think the new Association is bias, not commenting either way, but if it is for retailers why not invite them, even in future, transparency is a very favorable thing and will gain you support, or perhaps just lessen the people against you.

I'm not an IAA member but I do support the hard work they have done lately but must also very much stress the work Stone Cold put in.

Anyway, even if you don't like the idea of a new Association, entertain it and let it play out, if some of the ideas are against the vast amount of airsofters then they will need to be changed or many people wouldn't join

Hopefully in the end one joint Association can be formed, not expecting this to happen any time soon but hopefully it will happen as then we can have one body representing ALL the people and we can get back to having fun running around shooting each other:P

Rooky1

There is a lot of negativity and grudges rolling around on this thread!

I don't see a problem with players having to be registered, or listing what AEG's, GBB's or Springers that we own!
When joining UKARA this information is given to your registered site!
Ukara self governs the sport of Airsoft and stops politicians from panicking about our sport and shutting us down.
If sites and retailers are all registered, it should guarantee that all shops are compliant with the 1 joule (328 fps) limits and that all sites have the necessary insurance, first aid staff, child protection officers, etc.

Everyone needs to forgive and forget their differences and concentrate on making our sport safer and better for everyone involved!
All the bickering is not going to get any new guys and gals interested in the sport!!!

Let us grow up and move on! I personally love this sport and have been playing for the last 4 years and want to continue playing for as long as I am physically able! Lets think about what is good for the sport, not what is good for individual sites and retailers.
There are enough airsofters around willing to spend money on our sport and keep everyone in business!!!:D:rolleyes::)

That is my rant over!!!

gerrowadat

DisasterIRL wrote: »

I can't see the harm in having two Associations, if and only if it is gone about the right way.

Also it shouldn't harm any proposals put forward as long as before hand the two have a sit down and put aside their differences, and I don't see why they shouldn't at this stage, they now both have a valid way of expressing their differences. But a sit down is needed to cool heads, I can't imagine it would get any worse

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it's been made clear to us that Derek's not prepared to talk in a civil manner. Personally I'd be prepared to sit down and talk about our differences. My exposure to Derek in person has been limited, I'll admit.

DisasterIRL wrote: »

The exclusion of people was somewhat shooting yourself in the foot, as it makes people think the new Association is bias, not commenting either way, but if it is for retailers why not invite them, even in future, transparency is a very favorable thing and will gain you support, or perhaps just lessen the people against you.

Not sure what you're saying here. MIA withdrew their application for affiliation when hard questions started to be asked about some of the stuff they were selling. The IAA were prepared to consider the application before it was withdrawn.

DisasterIRL

gerrowadat wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it's been made clear to us that Derek's not prepared to talk in a civil manner. Personally I'd be prepared to sit down and talk about our differences. My exposure to Derek in person has been limited, I'll admit.



Not sure what you're saying here. MIA withdrew their application for affiliation when hard questions started to be asked about some of the stuff they were selling. The IAA were prepared to consider the application before it was withdrawn.

I was referring to the new Association :P

gerrowadat

Rooky1 wrote: »

I don't see a problem with players having to be registered, or listing what AEG's, GBB's or Springers that we own!
When joining UKARA this information is given to your registered site!
Ukara self governs the sport of Airsoft and stops politicians from panicking about our sport and shutting us down.
If sites and retailers are all registered, it should guarantee that all shops are compliant with the 1 joule (328 fps) limits and that all sites have the necessary insurance, first aid staff, child protection officers, etc.

Everyone needs to forgive and forget their differences and concentrate on making our sport safer and better for everyone involved!
All the bickering is not going to get any new guys and gals interested in the sport!!!

These two paragraphs contradict each other. The UK is a giant and obvious case study for how UKARA basically killed Airsoft in the UK.

The thing with 'new guys and gals' is that they have to be interested, and also be allowed. Right now, we have both, and it's hard enough to get people into it when our avenues for publicity are so limited. If suddenly there are unreasonable legal barriers for getting into the sport, it's going to slow the growth of the sport to a tiny trickle.

I know this will happen, because it has already happened in the UK.

gerrowadat

DisasterIRL wrote: »

I was referring to the new Association :P

Derek is the new association. If anyone tells you otherwise, you are being lied to.

Lemming

Rooky1 wrote: »

I don't see a problem with players having to be registered, or listing what AEG's, GBB's or Springers that we own!
When joining UKARA this information is given to your registered site!

I've not got an issue with standing up and saying "I'm an airsofter/skirmisher/whatever" since by joining any association that's what I am declaring and it's all in the public domain.

Do UKARA demand that you give them a list of what you own?

It's [UKARA] a retailer-oriented organisation, NOT a player oriented organisation, so you can see the concerns. This is their biggest failing in terms of the UK VCRA. They do not represent the interest of anybody other than commercial interests and it is only by benign association that players are in some manner defended by UKARA. They've explicitly stated themselves that the defense was not for player but to cover the retailers selling kit.

The only reason the UK government has gone with UKARA on this is because they hadn't a clue on how to deal with airsoft and UKARA were the only ones who spoke up.

Rooky1

gerrowadat wrote: »

These two paragraphs contradict each other. The UK is a giant and obvious case study for how UKARA basically killed Airsoft in the UK.

The thing with 'new guys and gals' is that they have to be interested, and also be allowed. Right now, we have both, and it's hard enough to get people into it when our avenues for publicity are so limited. If suddenly there are unreasonable legal barriers for getting into the sport, it's going to slow the growth of the sport to a tiny trickle.

I know this will happen, because it has already happened in the UK.

How has 'UKARA killed Airsoft in the UK'?
The sport is very much alive and well and thriving. I have been over for many shoots in the UK and no matter what site I go too they never struggle for players!!!

It is still easy to register, you just need to play a couple of times and get a site to sign your form. Not difficult or awkward.
The only downside is you can't buy an AEG before you are registered! (apart from an ugly 2 tone aeg!!)

What I was saying was that if I wanted to start airsofting and I did a search and found Airsoft on Boards and read all the bickering and fighting that was going on, then I would more than likely be put off!!

DisasterIRL

gerrowadat wrote: »

Derek is the new association. If anyone tells you otherwise, you are being lied to.

That's beyond the point, there was more than him there, I was referring to the new Association not inviting people, as I said transparency would be a great help to them at this time, it would reduce the amount of cynics,

But let me make this clear I am not for or against either this new association or the IAA, I am yet to make up my mind.

Either way it pans out I shall still be shopping in the shops I feel are best and sites, despite which side of the fence they may be on.

Lomarticus

Why would anyone want a list of our AEGs?

They're toys right?

As long as what we have is under 1 joule, who cares what we have?

Did you register the games you got your kids for Christmas with any resellers association? did you have to account for the ones you threw away during the year? are the authorities going to come and interrogate you about discrepancies?

When I buy new ones (and dispose of the broken ones), I don't want anyone interrogating me about what happened to one I listed six months ago and no longer have... and why should I?

If I need a license for them, then I'll list them with the Gardai, not with some resellers association (if that is what it ends up as) and not with the IAA. As long as what I have is under 1 joule, what I have is nobody's business but my own. If the site I attend does not protect my private data, there are solutions for that too.

Now, if what someone brings to a site is OVER 1 joule, that is a different matter, but as long as it's under a joule I feel that it's nobody's business what we have.

If there is going to be a second association, then I see this as being a deal-breaker for many players.