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The IAA, "The Shop" and the other organisation - Moved from the PQ Thread

24567…11

Comments

  • #32
    Jay TLR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 110 ✭✭Jay TLR


    Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!


  • #33
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Jay TLR wrote: »
    Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!

    Jay thats fine if its just an organisation that is an entity for the commercial interests but it seems to be presenting itself as a carbon copy of the IAA.

    Also everthough you state the you'll never join the IAA they are still representing you. Based on the minutes posted you will not be able to purchase AEG's from the affiliates of the new organisation unless you are a member of this organisation. They also seem to want to have full details of what you own, for what purpose we don't know. To hand to the authorities, for marketing purposes?

    Also given the history of one of the main drivers of this organisation I would be extremely suspect at the real intentions of its formation. Up until late summer I would have supported this person and counted myself as someone who felt the IAA was lacking without his inclusion. This changed when he showed his true colours to me. Read my responses on this thread on the IAA forum. Specifically the first 3 pages. Now ask yourself why have I changed my stance so dramatically since then?

    Firstly I have seen first hand the hard work the IAA lads have put in. Secondally I stuck my neck out and got a certain person reinstated on boards who then went back on their word and continued their bad behaviour. Now I ask myself if they cannot keep their word on a simple matter what are they going to do on "our" behalf with this new organisation?


  • #34
    Masada
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Masada


    Jay TLR wrote: »
    Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!


    Thats not what its about,

    When it all boils down to it, and you remove all the fancy words,
    Its about a "certain person" throwing his toys out of the pram and refusing to swallow his pride, accept he was wrong and join the IAA. joining the IAA was "this persons" goal but he didnt want to give any promises that he wouldnt supply hot guns to people, knowingly or not.

    Sooo, this person, who happens to be a supplier to some of the other shops and sites decides to start a new organisation to save face and have another stab of getting a grip on the sport.

    I dont agree with boycotting sites and retailers either, i agree with you there, maybe some of them were there because they feel they supply would be threatened if they got on his bad side.

    You'll notice the biggest and most independent retailers were not invited. because they have more power to tell him to f*ck off.,


  • #35
    kdouglas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kdouglas


    Ghostwarrior wrote: »
    these groups mentioned above seem to be doing that in there own particular way. but all i ask and all that I'm sure everyone else is asking is for whatever organization in question do the following.

    1. Secure the sport
    2. Do not restrict the sport

    Agreed, however this new group seeks to restrict the sport by requiring anyone who buys an airsoft device to register with them, and not only that, but a record of all of your owned devices must be kept aswell.

    Couple of points on that; From a technical point of view, the amount of data they want to keep is going to need a fair bit of storage space, along with a secure location to store it and off-site backups. It's going to cost a lot of money to store that kind of information securely. To be honest, I dont expect this to be executed properly at all.

    Secondly, it will be a cold day in hell before I submit to giving that kind of detail to any organisation, what right do they have to know what my airsoft collection consists of? NONE

    What right do they have to say who can and cant buy airsoft in this country?
    NONE

    I personally am wondering what kind of organisation this new body is meant to be? Why is it they want so much control over who can and cant buy and keep details of every airsoft gun owned? The words cartel and monopoly spring to my mind.




    Jay TLR wrote: »
    Wow. Alot of dummies being thrown out of the pram here. I think it makes sense for there to be a retailers and site owners body seperate to the players body. The IAA have a job to do but their main interest is not retailers and sites. The retailers and site owners have their livelyhood to protect so they'll be coming from a different veiwpoint. It's all for the protection of the sport so I don't understand why so many people are freaking out. Whats even worse are the narrow minded people saying they'll not play or buy at particular sites\shops. Talk about the sport turning on itself. So basically, if your organisation isn't the only organisation then you'll try and put some people out of business. Well done lads, that's a real grown-up, democratic way to deal with a problem. To be honest, it's people like that who have me convinced I will NEVER join the IAA. Alot of the main supporters of the IAA seem to be the same bunch of players who are always causing trouble in the community. Grow up ffs!


    The IAA also represents retailers and sites, it represents everyone in the country who has an interest in airsoft, the committee do the work voluntarily without any financial reward and do it to secure the future of airsoft. Any new organisation run by retailers is only going to look after their own pockets.

    Also, ever heard of "Vote with your feet", If you disagree with a shops policies/prices/actions... take your business elsewhere, and as consumers, we are all entitled to do exactly that.


  • #36
    horgan_p
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    Gentlemen ( and ladies) ,


    If anyone ( player , retailer or skirmish site) can justify controlling the sale of airsoft devices and restricting them to the members of a "club" - lets hear it

    If anyone can justify holding and keping a "census " of all the airsoft devices in the country and their owners - lets hear it
    edit : never mind the small matter that most aegs dont have serial numbers.

    If this doesnt make anyone here even slightly nervous , then people , you arent paying attention.

    for the record neither cork airsoft shop nor the nor the cork skirmish site ( sas-c) were invited to this meeting.
    for the record - i've never spoken to the people behind this club - in ANY context.

    you all go on about databases and data protection - these guys want you to provide info to god knows who on which aegs you own.

    you all go on that the IAA arent doing enough for you - these boys are basically going to CRIMINALISE you for not being in their "club"

    you all talk about democracy - this "club" basically is a gentlemen's agreement to control the supply of airsoft gear to YOU..

    you've seen what the IAA have done and continue to do.you've seen that they do not wish to control what you buy and own.

    those of you who are thinkers can see who was not at that meeting ,and indeed who was at that meeting - join the dots.

    those of you who know something of "the scene" know what someone tried to do to my business - practically before we opened.

    most of you have been burned in one way or another by this man - how short is your memory?


    The IAA dont always get everything right - but at least they dont get things this wrong.

    and this new club does not serve you , the player nor me the shop owner - it serves but one person.


    Thank you for your time.

    Paul Horgan


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  • #37
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    I think, after my initial post and seeing the posts since, that the best thing to do is simply push on.

    If IASRA can justify & validate their existence then so be it. If they survive beyond a year, so be it. I know who will continue to get my support and it will not be any organisation seeking to create what appears to be a cartel out of bad blood & cynical PR


  • #38
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    kinkstr wrote: »
    The amount of bull**** associated with this sport never ceases to amaze me.

    Same with everything. Different issues, much the same shi/te. Might be different in some place, possibly over the rainbow....


  • #39
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    My god what happened to the good old days when airsofters where a tight-knit community of friends who met up on the weekend for a few hours of pure unadulterated fun?

    Too much politics.
    Too much backstabbing.
    Too many people trying to control (including heavy moderation of what's allowed to be posted here)
    Too many vested interests.
    Too much bull****.

    And some people asked why I am giving airsoft a long break...


  • #40
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    Too many people trying to control (including heavy moderation of what's allowed to be posted here)

    In fairness, whatever about the rest of it ... the moderation has been spot on in order to keep the forum in-check. It's had to have been active and heavy at times or else this place would just break down. It's happened elsewhere on boards.ie in the past where entire forums have been locked for months on end in order to gain control of out of hand behaviour.

    Boards.ie isn't a democracy. It's a benign dictatorship. Free speech doesn't exist here because as much as you will be held accountable for what you say (freedom of speach also entails carrying responsibility for what you say ... ), so to will boards.ie for allowing you say it.

    Edit: Anyone who thinks that free speech exists on other forums and not on boards.ie is living in fantasy land. Other forums are just as exposed as boards.ie except that if they don't actively control what's being said they wont last very long when something serious is said ...


  • #41
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    Folks,

    Let's take a step back and try not to go on a witch hunt here. I'm sure some of the retailers and sites who attended either didn't know what was going on, or didn't necessarily like what was going on (from what I've heard, there was pretty vocal opposition to continuing with the meeting without certain retailers and sites present, but there you go).

    I've visited sites and retailers on and off the list of attendees (and list of IAA affiliates) before, and I will again. Becoming insular and joining a 'side' is exactly what this body wants, and is exactly what the person behind it wants.

    The people who were at this meeting are not our enemies. In fact, as IAA Vice-Chair I have to stand up and say that I can't blame some of our affiliates for attending. We have been so tied up in press, DoJ dealing, meetings with TDs, AGMs and other stuff (y'know, about saving the sport) that we've been somewhat neglecting our affiliates recently. This is going to change once the MPB comes out. We are confident that the bill will be favourable, which will free us up to work on stuff like marshal training, child protection training, first aid training, all of which we're currently also working on.

    Let's be honest here, this organisation is driven entirely by one person, who has had a run-in with the IAA before, and sees no other recourse than to try to 'beat' us somehow. Instead of picking up the phone and talking to us in a civil manner, he's chosen to go down the path of dividing the sport, diving the players along lines of retailer, site, and business. This is a fly in the ointment, and will fizzle out when the people involved realise they're being duped.

    So let's have no more talk of not associating with retailers or sites because they're involved in this body. We don't know people's motivations, and we don't have all the facts. Get out there and support your sport. Visit your nearest or favourite retailer, go to the site you like best on merit, or where your mates go. Play the sport you love, and forget all this political bull****. It only serves to damage what it is we (the community) have built with our own hands over the last few years.

    Other people might have their own agenda or their own political or fiscal motivations for pulling stunts like this, but I have no time for it. I just wanna shoot.

    pew pew.


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  • #42
    DisasterIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭DisasterIRL


    I can't see the harm in having two Associations, if and only if it is gone about the right way.

    Also it shouldn't harm any proposals put forward as long as before hand the two have a sit down and put aside their differences, and I don't see why they shouldn't at this stage, they now both have a valid way of expressing their differences. But a sit down is needed to cool heads, I can't imagine it would get any worse

    The exclusion of people was somewhat shooting yourself in the foot, as it makes people think the new Association is bias, not commenting either way, but if it is for retailers why not invite them, even in future, transparency is a very favorable thing and will gain you support, or perhaps just lessen the people against you.

    I'm not an IAA member but I do support the hard work they have done lately but must also very much stress the work Stone Cold put in.

    Anyway, even if you don't like the idea of a new Association, entertain it and let it play out, if some of the ideas are against the vast amount of airsofters then they will need to be changed or many people wouldn't join

    Hopefully in the end one joint Association can be formed, not expecting this to happen any time soon but hopefully it will happen as then we can have one body representing ALL the people and we can get back to having fun running around shooting each other:P


  • #43
    Rooky1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Rooky1


    There is a lot of negativity and grudges rolling around on this thread!

    I don't see a problem with players having to be registered, or listing what AEG's, GBB's or Springers that we own!
    When joining UKARA this information is given to your registered site!
    Ukara self governs the sport of Airsoft and stops politicians from panicking about our sport and shutting us down.
    If sites and retailers are all registered, it should guarantee that all shops are compliant with the 1 joule (328 fps) limits and that all sites have the necessary insurance, first aid staff, child protection officers, etc.

    Everyone needs to forgive and forget their differences and concentrate on making our sport safer and better for everyone involved!
    All the bickering is not going to get any new guys and gals interested in the sport!!!

    Let us grow up and move on! I personally love this sport and have been playing for the last 4 years and want to continue playing for as long as I am physically able! Lets think about what is good for the sport, not what is good for individual sites and retailers.
    There are enough airsofters around willing to spend money on our sport and keep everyone in business!!!:D:rolleyes::)

    That is my rant over!!!


  • #44
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    DisasterIRL wrote: »
    I can't see the harm in having two Associations, if and only if it is gone about the right way.

    Also it shouldn't harm any proposals put forward as long as before hand the two have a sit down and put aside their differences, and I don't see why they shouldn't at this stage, they now both have a valid way of expressing their differences. But a sit down is needed to cool heads, I can't imagine it would get any worse

    I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it's been made clear to us that Derek's not prepared to talk in a civil manner. Personally I'd be prepared to sit down and talk about our differences. My exposure to Derek in person has been limited, I'll admit.
    DisasterIRL wrote: »
    The exclusion of people was somewhat shooting yourself in the foot, as it makes people think the new Association is bias, not commenting either way, but if it is for retailers why not invite them, even in future, transparency is a very favorable thing and will gain you support, or perhaps just lessen the people against you.

    Not sure what you're saying here. MIA withdrew their application for affiliation when hard questions started to be asked about some of the stuff they were selling. The IAA were prepared to consider the application before it was withdrawn.


  • #45
    DisasterIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭DisasterIRL


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it's been made clear to us that Derek's not prepared to talk in a civil manner. Personally I'd be prepared to sit down and talk about our differences. My exposure to Derek in person has been limited, I'll admit.



    Not sure what you're saying here. MIA withdrew their application for affiliation when hard questions started to be asked about some of the stuff they were selling. The IAA were prepared to consider the application before it was withdrawn.

    I was referring to the new Association :P


  • #46
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    Rooky1 wrote: »
    I don't see a problem with players having to be registered, or listing what AEG's, GBB's or Springers that we own!
    When joining UKARA this information is given to your registered site!
    Ukara self governs the sport of Airsoft and stops politicians from panicking about our sport and shutting us down.
    If sites and retailers are all registered, it should guarantee that all shops are compliant with the 1 joule (328 fps) limits and that all sites have the necessary insurance, first aid staff, child protection officers, etc.

    Everyone needs to forgive and forget their differences and concentrate on making our sport safer and better for everyone involved!
    All the bickering is not going to get any new guys and gals interested in the sport!!!

    These two paragraphs contradict each other. The UK is a giant and obvious case study for how UKARA basically killed Airsoft in the UK.

    The thing with 'new guys and gals' is that they have to be interested, and also be allowed. Right now, we have both, and it's hard enough to get people into it when our avenues for publicity are so limited. If suddenly there are unreasonable legal barriers for getting into the sport, it's going to slow the growth of the sport to a tiny trickle.

    I know this will happen, because it has already happened in the UK.


  • #47
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    DisasterIRL wrote: »
    I was referring to the new Association :P

    Derek is the new association. If anyone tells you otherwise, you are being lied to.


  • #48
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Rooky1 wrote: »
    I don't see a problem with players having to be registered, or listing what AEG's, GBB's or Springers that we own!
    When joining UKARA this information is given to your registered site!

    I've not got an issue with standing up and saying "I'm an airsofter/skirmisher/whatever" since by joining any association that's what I am declaring and it's all in the public domain.

    Do UKARA demand that you give them a list of what you own?

    It's [UKARA] a retailer-oriented organisation, NOT a player oriented organisation, so you can see the concerns. This is their biggest failing in terms of the UK VCRA. They do not represent the interest of anybody other than commercial interests and it is only by benign association that players are in some manner defended by UKARA. They've explicitly stated themselves that the defense was not for player but to cover the retailers selling kit.

    The only reason the UK government has gone with UKARA on this is because they hadn't a clue on how to deal with airsoft and UKARA were the only ones who spoke up.


  • #49
    Rooky1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Rooky1


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    These two paragraphs contradict each other. The UK is a giant and obvious case study for how UKARA basically killed Airsoft in the UK.

    The thing with 'new guys and gals' is that they have to be interested, and also be allowed. Right now, we have both, and it's hard enough to get people into it when our avenues for publicity are so limited. If suddenly there are unreasonable legal barriers for getting into the sport, it's going to slow the growth of the sport to a tiny trickle.

    I know this will happen, because it has already happened in the UK.


    How has 'UKARA killed Airsoft in the UK'?
    The sport is very much alive and well and thriving. I have been over for many shoots in the UK and no matter what site I go too they never struggle for players!!!

    It is still easy to register, you just need to play a couple of times and get a site to sign your form. Not difficult or awkward.
    The only downside is you can't buy an AEG before you are registered! (apart from an ugly 2 tone aeg!!)

    What I was saying was that if I wanted to start airsofting and I did a search and found Airsoft on Boards and read all the bickering and fighting that was going on, then I would more than likely be put off!!


  • #50
    DisasterIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭DisasterIRL


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    Derek is the new association. If anyone tells you otherwise, you are being lied to.

    That's beyond the point, there was more than him there, I was referring to the new Association not inviting people, as I said transparency would be a great help to them at this time, it would reduce the amount of cynics,

    But let me make this clear I am not for or against either this new association or the IAA, I am yet to make up my mind.

    Either way it pans out I shall still be shopping in the shops I feel are best and sites, despite which side of the fence they may be on.


  • #51
    Lomarticus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭Lomarticus


    Why would anyone want a list of our AEGs?

    They're toys right?

    As long as what we have is under 1 joule, who cares what we have?

    Did you register the games you got your kids for Christmas with any resellers association? did you have to account for the ones you threw away during the year? are the authorities going to come and interrogate you about discrepancies?

    When I buy new ones (and dispose of the broken ones), I don't want anyone interrogating me about what happened to one I listed six months ago and no longer have... and why should I?

    If I need a license for them, then I'll list them with the Gardai, not with some resellers association (if that is what it ends up as) and not with the IAA. As long as what I have is under 1 joule, what I have is nobody's business but my own. If the site I attend does not protect my private data, there are solutions for that too.

    Now, if what someone brings to a site is OVER 1 joule, that is a different matter, but as long as it's under a joule I feel that it's nobody's business what we have.

    If there is going to be a second association, then I see this as being a deal-breaker for many players.


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  • #52
    Rooky1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Rooky1


    Do UKARA demand that you give them a list of what you own?

    It's [UKARA] a retailer-oriented organisation, NOT a player oriented organisation, so you can see the concerns. This is their biggest failing in terms of the UK VCRA. They do not represent the interest of anybody other than commercial interests and it is only by benign association that players are in some manner defended by UKARA. They've explicitly stated themselves that the defense was not for player but to cover the retailers selling kit.

    The only reason the UK government has gone with UKARA on this is because they hadn't a clue on how to deal with airsoft and UKARA were the only ones who spoke up.[/quote]


    UKARA don't demand that you tell them what you own, but in my experience the site that you register with will!
    For no other reason than if for some reason than if you were travelling with your AEGs there was a record of what you own and that you are a legitimate airsofter. Of course in practise this can be alittle hit and miss as alot of us are always getting new AEGs!!!! And I doubt that the site you registered with could update fast enough.:D

    I have no problem with an organisation that is made up off Site and Shop owners, because at the end of the day they have the most to lose financially if the sport went belly up.


  • #53
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    "I dont see whats wrong with two associations"

    1) Two associations means a divided community.
    2) The second association is more limited in scope than the first.
    3) Two associations means two different, opposing groups (and they will be opposing) vying for the attention of the authorities. This will dilute both sides argument and make them easier to ignore. Evidence? See shooting forum.
    4) What benefit does having two different associations offer as opposed to a single one whose policies and direction can be altered by votes, reasoned argument and rational concern?

    "Businesses will do what is best for their profits".

    1) Businesses have every right to protect themselves but they do not have the right to rob the customer of their purchasing freedom.
    2) Businesses should have to suceed on their own merit and not the whim of a vested cartel. In other words, their services and products should be what dictates whether they can survive economically and not their membership in a private club.
    3) A representative group for businesses already exists - the IAA - whose agenda was to do more than protect the porfit margin, its to ensure that they still have a business with a profit margin to protect.

    "I dont like the IAA so I like the new guys"

    1) Why dont you like the IAA? Is it because of what you have heard? Or did you do your own research and come to the conclusion on your own based on the rational accumulation of evidence. Were you lazy or were you active.
    2) What do you like about the new guys? Is it that they claim to be the upholders of your rights? Is it because they claim to protect the sport? Or is it simply because they are new and not the IAA?

    "Whats wrong with only being able to buy from member retailers?"

    1) It robs you of your right to purchase from abroad and thus your consumer power.
    2) It prevents more shops form opening, reducing competition which erodes services and inflates prices by robbing you of the right to choose.

    "Whats wrong with handing over the details of my kit and having to be a member"

    1) Airsoft devices are not dangerous, registration of devices implies that they are.
    2) It kills the second hand market by forcing you to declare what you have and ensure that it does not change.
    3) It paves the way for licensing of products in your posession with annual fees and security measures which will be under the control of a commercial body whose intention is to make profit.
    4) You will have no control over where your information is sent and to whom it is available.
    5) Forcing an individual to be a member in order to own equipment means that those individuals are subject to the whims of the controlling body. In other words, you have to pay for membership, pay for equipment, you must play at their sites which you will pay for and they can set the prices, how often you must play and how often you must buy.

    "Its about time there was a second voice"

    1) The timing is not a coincidence. The new association is taking advantage of the handover period the initial association is going through.
    2) The second association has done nothing to manipulate the outcome of the DoJ decisions in the MPB and it is too late to. They have not produced any proposals and published no agenda to the people they claim to represent.
    3) The second association has made no efforts and is parasiting on the back of the achievments of the initial association.


    Major differences

    IAA does not demand membership to own devices
    IASRA does.

    IAA is not a commercial body whose core interest is the profits of its members
    IASRA is.

    IAA has had interaction with the DoJ and has published the relevant articles
    IASRA has not.

    IAA has submitted proposals which are available for the perusal of everyone regardless of membership
    IASRA has not.

    IAA has defended the sport of airsoft from media attack and political attack - sucessfully.
    IASRA has not.

    IAA was established by boards.ie members, from boards.ie members and is representative of all areas of the community.
    IASRA was not.

    IAA has been transparent and has published its policies, agenda etc
    IASRA has not.

    IAA has provided means for individuals to submit their opinions, comments nd ideas in order to influence the direction of airsoft and the proposals to the DoJ.
    IASRA has not.

    IAA committee members are not commercial interests.
    IASRA are commercial interests.

    Edit
    IAA have never demanded a list of what you own
    IASRA do

    IAA do not share out your personal information to the authorities
    IASRA will.

    BIG LIE: Commerical interests have the most to lose because of their money and business so they will make sure everything is fine.
    BIG TRUTH: The individual has the most to lose because they have the buying power, they play the sport, they collect the kit and they are the ones who will protect you because YOU are one of them.

    There are hundreds more differences.


  • #54
    Rooky1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Rooky1


    "5) Forcing an individual to be a member in order to own equipment means that those individuals are subject to the whims of the controlling body. In other words, you have to pay for membership, pay for equipment, you must play at their sites which you will pay for and they can set the prices, how often you must play and how often you must buy."


    This statement is misinformed and totally inaccurate!
    I am a member of UKARA and registered with Predator Combat Games!

    It didn't cost anything! I am not required to skirmish at there site at all!
    Tey certainly don't tell you what to buy or how often you skirmish.

    I used to play once a month at PCG plus all there special events as there were no sites in the south! Due to new family commitments this year I haven't been up as much as I would have liked.
    But there is no pressure about being a member you have to skirmish there all the time.
    Your whole statement above is false and unfounded!


  • #55
    The Warehouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


    Firstly I want to say that the following names on that list were representatives of The Warehouse/Airsoft Reloaded.

    Peter (Myself) AKA Kiwi
    Brian
    Bert

    I was contacted by someone in the Airsoft community that I have had absolutely no issues with in the past and invited to a meeting to try and save our sport. (This was before the IAA announced that they alone have saved our sport)

    Why should I as someone with both a financial and other* interests in the sport decline such a meeting?

    *(Anyone who knows me can tell you that I live breath and sleep airsoft)

    horgan_p wrote: »
    Gentlemen ( and ladies) ,


    If anyone ( player , retailer or skirmish site) can justify controlling the sale of airsoft devices and restricting them to the members of a "club" - lets hear it

    Easy. Restricting the sales is the wrong statement there. We as players are free to purchase airsoft devices from international dealers and shops as you see fit. The only restriction there is that they must be under 1J as per the law in this country.

    If you want to purchase from a shop then what harm is it to know that the shop if following a very strict set of rules.

    If you want to purchase from a shop that does not care what you do with the AEG or if there selling the hot AEG's then I personally don't want to meet you.

    Restricting the ownership to members of the affiliation ensures that only those who have an understanding of what the devices are and what you can/cannot do with them will have them.

    On that note I would like to point out that there was something very important missing from those minutes.

    Membership for a player is free. Membership is paid for by the affiliates of the association.

    Why should you as players have to pay to secure the future of your sport while the commercial end does not pay.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    If anyone can justify holding and keping a "census " of all the airsoft devices in the country and their owners - lets hear it
    edit : never mind the small matter that most aegs dont have serial numbers.

    If this doesnt make anyone here even slightly nervous , then people , you arent paying attention.

    Again the database is to ensure that only those who know what an airsoft device is and what they are allowed to do with it have them.

    It ensures that if you are acting the git with an AEG or have an overpowered AEG it can be tracked to the retailer that sold it to you.

    The database is not there to track your movements or to spam your in box. It was designed as a measure to give the DOJ more oversight on the size of the sport as a whole and to see who has an AEG.

    E.G. If some known criminal decides to start bulk buying Glocks then they know that something might be happening.

    Lets face it guys the DOJ dont give a damb about our sport the only issue they have with airsoft is how realistic the devices look.

    If we can give the DOJ a helping hand in this then whats the problem.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    for the record neither cork airsoft shop nor the nor the cork skirmish site ( sas-c) were invited to this meeting.
    for the record - i've never spoken to the people behind this club - in ANY context.

    The decision on who to invite was not mine and personally I do not agree with who was missing from the meeting.

    I have since spoken to some of those who were not invited and assured them that they would have no issues joining. I will stand behind any retailer, venue or anyone else who says that they will abide by the laws of this country.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    you all go on about databases and data protection - these guys want you to provide info to god knows who on which aegs you own.

    The DoJ. I have no issues with them knowing that I own AEG's. I am a law abiding citizen and have no ulterier motives for owning AEG's. Do you?
    horgan_p wrote: »
    you all go on that the IAA arent doing enough for you

    Bang. Nail on the head right there. Transperancy, where is it? If the IAA is singlehandly responsible for saving our sport I can only assume that it is from 1 meeting with the oppositation as that is all I know about.

    On the flip side I know of 2 other groups that have been speaking to the DoJ in relation to Airsoft.
    A quick look on the main page shows a comment from the minister saying that "That Bill will also tackle comprehensively the issue of airsoft guns, including making their possession in public a serious offence"

    From this the IAA says "We have been working hard in conjunction with the Department of Justice for many months now to form a set of proposals, and the minister’s comments would seem to indicate that these exact proposals are being taken onboard in the drafting of the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill."

    How do they make that leap? I have no idea. "possession in public a serious offence" thats a bit of a no brainer really. It is something that I know another group has stated to the DoJ on many occasions.
    I have had limited contact with the IAA so far. The 1st time I met them was at HRTA. It was from someone who was not there to play. They asked me for 35 euro to represent me. I declined as I had no clue who they were or what they would do with my money. At this stage I know more about them but I still would not join as I still dont know what they would do with my cash.

    The second time I met them it was by my invitation at the stress test. This time one of them played one game and then they left without them discussing what they actually do.

    The third time was only recently (After the meeting of the new organisation) again by my invitation to the site where they gave me a copy of thier proposals to the DoJ. I asked them if they would like to try out the site and they declined. I asked them what they currently do or have done for other venues/retailers and without going into detail or exact words the asnwer was minimal.

    That is fine I am ok with this. From my dealings with them I am basing my opinion on them. The IAA is there for the skirmishers while being run by those that dont skirmish alot. Commercial interests are not represented in thier meetings and as a result not much is being done for them. Again thats fine by me.

    As someone who now has commercial interests in Airsoft I need to look for a group that is going to represent me. If you want to bycot my site for this then yes I will consider you narrow minded.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    These boys are basically going to CRIMINALISE you for not being in their "club"

    This was a proposal that I personally thought would work for the DoJ.

    Let me give you an example.

    Cars are legal.
    Cars can do alot of damage if misused.
    To drive a car correctly you need to know the rules. Hence the licence.
    Driving a car without a licence is illegal.

    AEG's are legal
    AEG's can do alot of damage if misused.
    "Our Proposal" To use an AEG correctly you need to know the rules. Hence the free membership.
    Buying an AEG without free membership is illegal.

    And again I would like to point out that this meeting and these proposals was all before the minister said that he is introducing controlls. Let me remind you all of what he said before this. Airsoft will be banned!

    horgan_p wrote: »
    you all talk about democracy - this "club" basically is a gentlemen's agreement to control the supply of airsoft gear to YOU..

    Point disproved earlier.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    you've seen what the IAA have done and continue to do.you've seen that they do not wish to control what you buy and own.

    No I have not seen what the IAA have done. If its the IAA proposals that come through in the MP bill then I will retract my statment. Until then it could be the proposals of any the groups I know are talking to them.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    those of you who are thinkers can see who was not at that meeting ,and indeed who was at that meeting - join the dots.

    Yes I do know who was at the meeting. Alot of people that I respect in the airsoft community. They were invited like me to try and save the sport as we had no clue what the IAA was doing.

    There were also people I respect who were not at the meeting. This I dont agree with as I have stated before.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    those of you who know something of "the scene" know what someone tried to do to my business - practically before we opened.

    most of you have been burned in one way or another by this man - how short is your memory?

    The person you are refering to has a legitimat interest in ensuring the future of our sport. Personal issues should be left out of this discussion.

    That person stated that he did not have any issues with compatition and in fact encouraged it. I can attest to the fact that other retailers were there.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    The IAA dont always get everything right - but at least they dont get things this wrong.

    The fact that you can read what was discussed at the meeting online shows to me that already the new organisation is more transperent than the IAA.
    horgan_p wrote: »
    and this new club does not serve you , the player nor me the shop owner - it serves but one person.

    I completely disagree with you. As a founder of this I will be striving for the improvement of airsoft for all involved. Players, retailers, venues and anyone involved in airsoft.


  • #56
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    Rooky1 wrote: »
    "5) Forcing an individual to be a member in order to own equipment means that those individuals are subject to the whims of the controlling body. In other words, you have to pay for membership, pay for equipment, you must play at their sites which you will pay for and they can set the prices, how often you must play and how often you must buy."


    This statement is misinformed and totally inaccurate!
    I am a member of UKARA and registered with Predator Combat Games!

    It didn't cost anything! I am not required to skirmish at there site at all!
    Tey certainly don't tell you what to buy or how often you skirmish.

    I used to play once a month at PCG plus all there special events as there were no sites in the south! Due to new family commitments this year I haven't been up as much as I would have liked.
    But there is no pressure about being a member you have to skirmish there all the time.
    Your whole statement above is false and unfounded!

    so what your saying is that the UKARA is actually IASRA?

    No, I didnt think you were but your reasoning is broken. I didnt mention the UKARA in relation to this point but the fact is that it gives whichever body instituting the policy to power to do so.

    Show me where it doesnt?


  • #57
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Rooky1 wrote: »
    This statement is misinformed and totally inaccurate!
    I am a member of UKARA and registered with Predator Combat Games!

    It didn't cost anything! I am not required to skirmish at there site at all!
    Tey certainly don't tell you what to buy or how often you skirmish.

    I used to play once a month at PCG plus all there special events as there were no sites in the south! Due to new family commitments this year I haven't been up as much as I would have liked.
    But there is no pressure about being a member you have to skirmish there all the time.
    Your whole statement above is false and unfounded!

    I think he was referring to the minute comments from IASRA, not the UKARA requirements.

    Incidentally I should point out that whilst you are not required to play at PCG to become a UKARA member you are required to play at a UKARA-recognised site at least n times in y period. But that's pedantry on my part.

    The UK government recommends joining the UKARA scheme as best I can recall but does not state it is neithera mandatory nor definitive means to prove you are an airsofter.


  • #58
    horgan_p
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    @ The Warehouse :

    With all due respect , I have read the constitution on the new association , so i do know a little of what i'm talking about.


    I think it'd be interesting if the retailers and sites who were present declared their suppliers.
    i'm no mystic meg , but i think you'll see one name being repeated a lot.


  • #59
    johnboyire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭johnboyire


    Rooky1 wrote: »
    "5) Forcing an individual to be a member in order to own equipment means that those individuals are subject to the whims of the controlling body. In other words, you have to pay for membership, pay for equipment, you must play at their sites which you will pay for and they can set the prices, how often you must play and how often you must buy."


    This statement is misinformed and totally inaccurate!
    I am a member of UKARA and registered with Predator Combat Games!

    It didn't cost anything! I am not required to skirmish at there site at all!
    Tey certainly don't tell you what to buy or how often you skirmish.

    I used to play once a month at PCG plus all there special events as there were no sites in the south! Due to new family commitments this year I haven't been up as much as I would have liked.
    But there is no pressure about being a member you have to skirmish there all the time.
    Your whole statement above is false and unfounded!

    he (hivemind) made alot of assumptions rather than basing his points on facts,
    people can choose who they want to associate with, this is not highlander "there can be only one"

    its time for a fresh start, look at the IAA AGM barley enough people for a decent skirmish and they have been in existance for how long?


  • #60
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    I think that whilst I can see where Derek (assuming he's the driving force here) is coming from with some of the proposals as described by TheWarehouse.

    I also think that he's approaching this as someone who is a firearms license holder (and by precedent was involved in trying to associate airsoft with in the run up to last year's AGM and subsequent EGM). I don't agree with the approach as I think he's coming at it from, and think it's horrendously flawed as a starting point. We are not RS. Associating us with RS is a mistake. Making us jump through similar hoops to what the RS community have to go through is also a mistake because it reinforces the false public perception that we are somehow related to RS disciplines and therefore "dangerous" somehow.

    But this is all just my opinion as an airsofter so what would I know.


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  • #61
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    saw this comming

    i have only 2 issues with the iaa

    1 they don´t tell us what´s going on with the doj unless it suits them and i speficaly asked whether there was direct consultation with the doj

    here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58252090&postcount=148

    and was told there wasn´t and that i´d be told if there was

    so on the matter of singing off the same hymsheet i think thats a matter of what suits them and when

    2 ther are percieved to be a closed shop and in some ways i think that this is a very correct perception

    i have a question did any non comittee members know the stuff that was deliberatly kep`t from us and that was then announced at the agm

    was shiva told for example?

    i believe that mny non iaa comitee members had been told and that simply was not fair
    either mail all the members or keep it [oisin] super sekret [/oisin]

    that said any new group is gonna be confusing for the doj and thats not gonna help


    so iaa please share what you know when you know it and try to
    stop the perception that ye have tiers of frembers (sic)ç


This discussion has been closed.
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