Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

Zulu · 12-12-2008 11:36AM

Easteregg wrote: »

As opposed to pretending that everything is Hunky Dorey and its a really safe area?

No. As opposed to tackling the actual problem and attempting to resolve it with a LONG TERM solution.

Social regeneration, improve the area, whats that mean in the context of reality?

What it means in the context of reality, is putting down the mail/sun, and having a little think before reacting. Generally speaking ill conceived, knee-jerk, overhand responses, do more damage than good.
Social regeneration it taking a community that has problems and trying to resolve those problem long term, and ultimately aspires to create a community that is safe for all members.
So what long term effect will putting soldiers on the streets have?
Well for one, no one is going to buy a house in the area.
If no one is buying a house in the area, good people will move out/die off.
So whats left is an area thats more run down.
Nice. :rolleyes:

Social regeneration tries to get good people into the area. People who care for their neighbours and their community. This creates a desirable area to live in, and encourages more people to move there.

Zulu · 12-12-2008 11:40AM

Darragh29 wrote: »

One thing I've noticed is the complete lack of any outcry around the East Wall area about this, they don't seem too bothered at all by this. I don't see much by way of posts from anyone living in East Wall on here either, kind of says a lot about the whole community over there...

What? There are a number of posters from East wall here.
You expect everyone in East Wall to be regular posters on boards, who are interested in wading through 20 odd pages of this thread???

Or do you expect us to take out ads in the national papers????
...or just riot in the streets perhaps

Dyr · 12-12-2008 11:44AM

Zulu wrote: »

Social regeneration tries to get good people into the area. People who care for their neighbours and their community. This creates a desirable area to live in, and encourages more people to move there.

Only if your definition of "good people" is more wealthy people.

Dave! · 12-12-2008 11:48AM

How's your protest coming along Darragh29?

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 11:52AM

Zulu wrote: »

What? There are a number of posters from East wall here.
You expect everyone in East Wall to be regular posters on boards, who are interested in wading through 20 odd pages of this thread???
Or do you expect us to take out ads in the national papers????
...or just riot in the streets perhaps

Just making the remark that you lot don't seem too put out by what happened to that man.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 11:53AM

Dave! wrote: »

How's your protest coming along Darragh29?

I mentioned a protest but its clear enough that people here don't feel as strongly as I do about this...

Zulu · 12-12-2008 11:55AM

Bambi wrote: »

Only if your definition of "good people" is more wealthy people.

Not at all, but as has been pointed out again and again on this thread - if this happened in Dalkey, the response would be very different from the Guards. Why do you think that is?

Easteregg asked "whats that mean in the context of reality"? You can't have it both ways Bambi. You either acknowledge why the outcome would be different in a wealthy area and have a realistic approach to the problem, or you stick to the "wishy-washy middle-class ideals" (sic)

Wealth doesn't equate to good people - I never suggested that, it was merely your prejudice that brought that up - however wealth does equate to a stronger political lobby. And thats what you need to resolve these issues.
That's the realistic approach.

Scallop · 12-12-2008 11:59AM

If a protest is being arranged then Im right beside you Darragh29

The posters with photos of these scum around the area is a really good idea

the title on the posters being (UN) WANTED

RedPlanet · 12-12-2008 12:01PM

I'd be interested to here what your "Social regeneration" means Zulu.
I know you want "good people" to move into the area, but how do you see that occuring? How do you facilitate that in the real world?
What about the problem families already there?
Does Social regeneration mean, that the Council should fix all our problems?

RedPlanet · 12-12-2008 12:07PM

Scallop wrote: »

If a protest is being arranged then Im right beside you Darragh29

The posters with photos of these scum around the area is a really good idea

the title on the posters being (UN) WANTED

Yeah, but it's gotta go hand-in-hand with organised or even un-organised meeting with residents. The goal is excommunication. You have to get shop keepers and bookies etc to go along with it.

Zulu · 12-12-2008 12:07PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just making the remark that you lot don't seem too put out by what happened to that man.

In all respect - fuck off.

Who do you think you are making a comment like that? You don't have a clue how that has impact me or my family. You think my partner feels safe walking down to the shops in the dark?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 12-12-2008 12:07PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

One thing I've noticed is the complete lack of any outcry around the East Wall area about this, they don't seem too bothered at all by this. I don't see much by way of posts from anyone living in East Wall on here either, kind of says a lot about the whole community over there...

There were short interviews I heard on the radio about this, don't mix up fear with lack of interest. People are very very interested, they are also very very afraid. They won't talk too much for fear of it happening to them.

Scallop · 12-12-2008 12:08PM

How do people on this board feel about organising and attending a protest?

Zulu · 12-12-2008 12:12PM

I get the impression you haven't read the whole thread RedPlanet, however...

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'd be interested to here what your "Social regeneration" means Zulu.

See previous post for description.

I know you want "good people" to move into the area, but how do you see that occuring? How do you facilitate that in the real world?

Well, tbh, I'm not sure exactly, but putting soldiers on the streets defiantly isn't going to work.

What about the problem families already there?

See previous post. I think punishing the parents is a good start. Parental responsibility.

Does Social regeneration mean, that the Council should fix all our problems?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but yes, the council/government should lead in fixing this problem - who else would?

Isn't that their role?

RedPlanet · 12-12-2008 12:16PM

Zulu wrote: »

Well, tbh, I'm not sure exactly, but putting soldiers on the streets defiantly isn't going to work.

That's not my suggestion, nor does it answer my question.

Zulu wrote: »

I think punishing the parents is a good start. Parental responsibility.

Does that entail more legislation?
I hope not.
Have you considered, that some of these parents may feel a bit terrorised by their own kids? And that the kids could use [punishing the parents] as leverage against them to get what they want?

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but yes, the council/government should lead in fixing this problem - who else would? Isn't that their role?

In my opinion, it's gotta come from teh community, people on the ground.
This is a ground-up exercise, not a top-down thing.
I wouldn't look for handouts from the council during a recession.

Dave! · 12-12-2008 12:19PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

I mentioned a protest but its clear enough that people here don't feel as strongly as I do about this...

I'm pretty sure some most protests aren't organised through boards.ie

Go to Eastwall and knock on some doors, I'm sure they're all just waiting for someone to make the first move for this protest.

RedPlanet · 12-12-2008 12:19PM

Your previous post on Social regeneration was very short on specifics:

What it means in the context of reality, is putting down the mail/sun, and having a little think before reacting. Generally speaking ill conceived, knee-jerk, overhand responses, do more damage than good.
Social regeneration it taking a community that has problems and trying to resolve those problem long term, and ultimately aspires to create a community that is safe for all members.
So what long term effect will putting soldiers on the streets have?
Well for one, no one is going to buy a house in the area.
If no one is buying a house in the area, good people will move out/die off.
So whats left is an area thats more run down.
Nice. :rolleyes:

Social regeneration tries to get good people into the area. People who care for their neighbours and their community. This creates a desirable area to live in, and encourages more people to move there.

That's why i am askig you to be more specific.
All you've stated in this post is that you want good people to move into the area.

Scallop · 12-12-2008 12:32PM

RedPlanet wrote: »

Yeah, but it's gotta go hand-in-hand with organised or even un-organised meeting with residents. The goal is excommunication. You have to get shop keepers and bookies etc to go along with it.

We can but ask the business owners to get involved and excommunicate this scum.
If they are not willing for fear of the scum retaliating then ok they have a fair point but to get the ball rolling on the poster front there are plenty of walls and lamposts in the area.
Remember this is a gang of no more than 20. Kids "most" of them.
most of them are not scum bags and purely hang out with these lads because they think its cool.
As I said...when these lads are on their own they are pathetic and rarely do or say anything to anyone.
If enough people band together on this we have safety in numbers...a hellava lot more numbers.

It has to start somewhere. Besides ourselves, We have old folk and children in the area that need to feel safe.

gazzer · 12-12-2008 12:36PM

What I dont understand (and this doesnt just relate to the East Wall community) is .. if people in the area know who the trouble makers are and if they are only a small minority of people in the area .. why the hell dont the decent people of the area get together at meetings, have marches and show a force of strength that they are not going to take this scumbag behaviour any more?

I can understand why people on their own are afraid but if a group of people get together and march, put pictures of the scumbags on lampposts, get in touch with the local papers, radio stations etc. These scumbags prey on fear and peopel who are isolated so let all these communities get together and support each other. Is it a case that people are so apatethic nowadays that as long as it isnt happening to them then they dont care. I really couldnt sit by and watch my neighbour get terrorised like this chap in East Wall did. Im not saying that I would be going out confronting the scumbags but I would get involved in the community and help my neighbours where I could.

When I lived in Dublin 15 a number of us in adjoining houses had terrible trouble with scumbags from a neighbouring estate. I confronted them, constantly rang the gardai, wrote to councillors etc but but nothing every changed. My neighbours didnt want to know. They used to say "If I confront them it will only get worse" even though their windows were getting smashed in and cars set on fire anyway. In the end I sold up and left cos life is too short to be going through that type of life. It was such a relieft to shut that house door for the last time and drive away to my new house/life but the experience left a bitter taste in my mouth in terms of people in the area not banding together to help others. I just do not understand why communities dont get together.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 12:53PM

gazzer wrote: »

I just do not understand why communities dont get together.

Lack of solidarity. I think the changes in Ireland in recent times have caused people to be afraid to stand up together.

Scallop · 12-12-2008 01:03PM

Apathy is the key word alright.

People hiding behind their keyboards (most not all)

Talk - Action = sh*t

Im in the area a few months and Im not going to stand for this. We see protests in town against fur trading and how much a taxi man should get yet when AN INNOCENT MAN is murdered in cold blood and area terrorized by 5 (the core) youths, WE do NOTHING.

Wheres the meeting. This man cannot have died for NOTHING.

Zulu · 12-12-2008 01:09PM

RedPlanet wrote: »

Your previous post on Social regeneration was very short on specifics...
That's why i am askig you to be more specific. All you've stated in this post is that you want good people to move into the area.

Please follow the conversation thread back. You appear to have jumped in at the end.
I was responding to the negative effect of having the army on the street.

RedPlanet wrote: »

That's not my suggestion, nor does it answer my question.

It mightn't have been your question, it was however the question I was answering.

Does that entail more legislation?

I'd imagine it would.

Have you considered, that some of these parents may feel a bit terrorised by their own kids?

I have, and support should be in place for them.

And that the kids could use [punishing the parents] as leverage against them to get what they want?

Naturally they could. However I didn't mean to imply that punishment was restricted to the parents. Community work both the parent and child have to undertake would be ideal.

In my opinion, it's gotta come from teh community, people on the ground.This is a ground-up exercise, not a top-down thing.

I agree whole heartedly, however a shattered community require leadership, and that should come from the government. That is what they are elected for. That is why the community has voted them into that role.

I wouldn't look for handouts from the council during a recession.

Who mentioned a handout?

OK-Cancel-Apply · 12-12-2008 01:17PM

Easteregg wrote: »

And like someone else said, the murder of Aidan will turn into a court fiasco whereby violins will be played and the murderer will be made to be the victim of society.

No violins will be played, nor should they be. Not if this thread represents a slice of popular opinion! And who suggested they should?

As somebody else pointed out, he's not a 'victim' of society - he is a product of his environment. Simply beating him up won't solve the problem. Is it so 'liberal' to expand one's thinking to the larger problem? What actually makes a 'scumbag' class? Why is it that these people have nothing else to do with their time? Where are the parents? We should be looking to other countries to see what they are doing about it, and find out what works.

In the good old days, locals would have come together and given all of them a proper hiding -

Yeah, the good old days. How far back do you have to go before you have the 'bad' old days? Mob lynching? What kind of country do you want to live in?

RedPlanet · 12-12-2008 01:22PM

So you want:

- legislation to hold parents accountable for their kids actions.
- some sort of system whereby "good people" are encouraged to move into the area, but you have no specifics about such system.
- some manner of "support" for those parents whom are terrorised by their out-of-control kids.
- some general buzz word: "social regeneration", but beyond getting "good people" to move into the area, have no other specifics regarding what that means.

HOwever, none of that constitutes any sort of handout from the council.

That about right?

Terry · 12-12-2008 01:26PM

Zulu wrote: »

In all respect - fuck off.

Who do you think you are making a comment like that? You don't have a clue how that has impact me or my family. You think my partner feels safe walking down to the shops in the dark?

Normally I'd ban someone for this, but in this case I really believe it is deserved.

This is not to be seen as a prescedent though.

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 01:29PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Not if this thread represents a slice of popular opinion! And who suggested they should?

As somebody else pointed out, he's not a 'victim' of society - he is a product of his environment. Simply beating him up won't solve the problem. Is it so 'liberal' to expand one's thinking to the larger problem? What actually makes a 'scumbag' class? Why is it that these people have nothing else to do with their time? Where are the parents? We should be looking to other countries to see what they are doing about it, and find out what works.

We'll get Mary Harney and the others to spend the next five years traveling around Europe on first class flights looking at how well they have successfully worked things out there. Or maybe a tribunal type scenario where it could be debated for a couple of years.

I always remember what that guy said to Charlie Sheen in Platoon when he said he volunteered - "You got to be rich to think like that in the first place"

Dave! · 12-12-2008 01:33PM

The people calling for tougher sentences, capital punishment, etc., for these kids are probably the same people who would call for a drug dealer to be killed.

The irony of course being that the man killed was a convicted drug dealer.

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 01:34PM

Terry wrote: »

Normally I'd ban someone for this, but in this case I really believe it is deserved.

This is not to be seen as a prescedent though.

Bravo !! My support

OK-Cancel-Apply · 12-12-2008 01:38PM

Easteregg wrote: »

We'll get Mary Harney and the others to spend the next five years traveling around Europe on first class flights looking at how well they have successfully worked things out there. Or maybe a tribunal type scenario where it could be debated for a couple of years.

I always remember what that guy said to Charlie Sheen in Platoon when he said he volunteered - "You got to be rich to think like that in the first place"

Fine, let's caricature each other's positions -

Maybe you'd like to organise a machete-armed vigilante mob to hunt down and savage people to death. To hell with the gardai - they don't do anything except eat donuts and keep asking for 'evidence' of people's involvement in crime. Pfft. Who needs evidence when you've got a gut feeling?! Right? Jungle law FTW!

gazzer · 12-12-2008 01:41PM

Dave! wrote: »

The people calling for tougher sentences, capital punishment, etc., for these kids are probably the same people who would call for a drug dealer to be killed.

The irony of course being that the man killed was a convicted drug dealer.

The guy who was killed in East Wall was a convicted drug dealer??? Where did you read that?

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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