Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 09:35PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm so angry about this...

I'm with you on that, I'm extremely angry too, it's an outrage, and I'm seriously considering looking into whats involved in organising a protest.

Zombrex · 11-12-2008 09:42PM

marcsignal wrote: »

well i guess you can choose to interpret it that way mike65, but nobody is suggesting turning the army on anyone:rolleyes:, but rather reassuring the good people in East Wall that their government is not going to throw them to the wolves in the face of adversity, but will be prepared urgently pull out all the stocks available to protect them instead.

Protect them how exactly? What do you expect the Army to do? Stand beside every teenage over 10 and under 19 with a gun for the next 20 years? And as soon as they attempt to throw an egg at someone they shoot them?

Darragh29 · 11-12-2008 09:43PM

marcsignal wrote: »

I'm with you on that, I'm extremely angry too, it's an outrage, and I'm seriously considering looking into whats involved in organising a protest.

Definitely, I can't understand how this happens and all we see on the news is a load of pig farmers protesting???

Zombrex · 11-12-2008 09:48PM

BastardPrince wrote: »

when a district goes above a certain points total at the end of the 3 months, they are placed under Martial Law until their crime drops below the required rate subject to 3 month reviews! done and done!

Step 1) District's crime rate too high
Step 2) Army comes in
Step 3) ????
Step 4) Crime rate drops

Again, what exactly do you think the Army will do, beyond shooting people?

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 09:51PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Protect them how exactly? What do you expect the Army to do?

Stand beside every teenage over 10 and under 19 with a gun for the next 20 years?

See post #379 for the short term. The long term will take years, possibly a generation, and needs to be adressed from all sides, but in short, increased investment in the communities, better social services, giving social workers more actual power to intervene etc. with proper back up services, BUT ONLY if this goes hand in hand with a clamp down on the crime factor, execution of sentences to the full (life means life, with little or no chance of parole unless behaviour is exceptionally good) and emergency legislation to deal with the problem at hand.

There's no point in spending money on one side of this arguement alone, none.

Zombrex · 11-12-2008 09:55PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Find the scum responsible. Be 100% certain that it's them. Then shoot the scum in a VERY public place, live on TV and YouTube or whatever these scum watch, as a possible future deterrent.

Your right, I forgot we were living in North Korea ... how silly of me

I would like to know how you become "100% certain" it is them, or what they have actually done. Or is it ok to be 90% it is them before they have their brains blown out on RTE?

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 10:00PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Step 1) District's crime rate too high
Step 2) Army comes in EDIT to support the Garda ERU EDIT
Step 3) EDIT Scumbags Harassed Purged and Arrested where applicable EDIT
Step 4) Crime rate drops

fixed that for you Wicknight

Wicknight wrote: »

Again, what exactly do you think the Army will do, beyond shooting people?

see post #379

i'm off for a pint now, so i'll be sensible and come back tomorrow

Nodin · 11-12-2008 10:01PM

tech77 wrote: »

2) a couple of liberal dissenters (with no real experience of the reality of antisocial scummers) .

Cougar1 wrote:

Let me guess, you must be mork from dalkey.....

With such psychic powers abroad, ye'd wonder how theres ever a lotto rollover....

HAGI · 11-12-2008 10:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So Hagi,what were these lads like?Were you friends with them?

No i'm nowhere near friends with them
the age bracket is enough to keep separate
Everyone knows the gang and so does the garda
i just feel that the garda didn't do near enough seen as they knows the gang name by name
i keep my distance from them i have my priorities ( finishing school etc ) while they aren't in school.

i was just shocked to hear about a murder didn't think id see the day ,

Zombrex · 11-12-2008 10:17PM

marcsignal wrote: »

see post #379

i'm off for a pint now, so i'll be sensible and come back tomorrow

Yes but your idea is that they will stand beside the police ... why? If you have armed police there dealing with people throwing eggs why do you need the Army?

marcsignal · 11-12-2008 10:33PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes but your idea is that they will stand beside the police ... why? If you have armed police there dealing with people throwing eggs why do you need the Army?

they were throwing eggs to lure the man out to shoot him.

There are not enough armed police to carry out such a large scale operation, PLUS the sight of armed soldiers is likely to have a positive psychological effect, in terms of instilling fear into the crims, PLUS (and here's another one for the left) some people are always saying the Army sit on their arses in Barracks all day doing nothing, so lets put the troops to work (no offence intended Mairt:D)

my pint is getting warm so i'm really off this time

night all

Easteregg · 11-12-2008 11:00PM

HAGI wrote: »

i was just shocked to hear about a murder didn't think id see the day ,

The house beside the lane on Shelmalier Road - the one where Aidan got murdered, their lived an old man who was harassed, taunted and driven into an early grave by that same gang who shot Aidan. Every second night of the week was full on, and when he tried to do anything about it he suffered his door getting kicked in and stones etc getting chucked. One night when the gang had a stereo on full blast and he tapped on the window to try and get them to turn it down and they screamed and shouted abuse at him and threw **** at his door, he eventually died from what I would consider being a victim of continued harassment and persecution - First victim.

Aidan was the second victim.

The parents of the kids in that gang are just as responsible as the gang members as they knew exactly what their children were doing to East Wall. By virtue of the fact that the cops regularly paid them visits about their sons / daughters behavior. Not last week - for years upon years.

They have absolutely no respect for human life. "East Wall Rules" is a graffiti slogan often seen around the area. I think not. East Wall has got nothing to be proud of.

Does anyone know when Aidan's funeral is? I didn't see it in the paper.

HAGI · 11-12-2008 11:12PM

why quote me ?
just wondering
i knew about the abuse
just a murder ? seems even far for them
obviously not

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 12:06AM

HAGI wrote: »

why quote me ?
just wondering
i knew about the abuse
just a murder ? seems even far for them
obviously not
.....
i was just shocked to hear about a murder didn't think id see the day

I quoted you because you said that you didn't think you'd see the day. I was warned two years ago by the guards that the lads in the gang were quote: "Stabbers". Its been obvious to me for several years that this crew had the growing capability, interest and intention of killing someone at some stage. It was only a matter of time and who it would be. So, shocked to hear the murder is one thing but the "didn't think I'd see the day" part - is a bit naive - No offence.

I'm very angry myself for what Aidan went through and what his son is going through now.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 12:12AM

It sounds like you folks in east Wall need to organise another public meeting and ask the top man at your local Garda station to resign before anymore people are shot dead by gun toting kids..

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 12:29AM

The Guards have their hands tied and this applies to everywhere. They know who they are but what can they do? Turn their pockets out all the time? The days of ruffing them up are gone apart from the odd case that crops up in an accusation. Honestly, the laws we have in the country don't give the guards much to play with. They can track a gang member for six months and finally have something on him and then he's out on bail and does what the fu.k he likes and then goes inside for six and he's back out. It is a joke, just like the comment made earlier that this guy who shot Aidan will come out in two years when he's 18 and he'll be Mr Big in East Wall.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 12:38AM

Easteregg wrote: »

The Guards have their hands tied and this applies to everywhere. They know who they are but what can they do? Turn their pockets out all the time? The days of ruffing them up are gone apart from the odd case that crops up in an accusation. Honestly, the laws we have in the country don't give the guards much to play with. They can track a gang member for six months and finally have something on him and then he's out on bail and does what the fu.k he likes and then goes inside for six and he's back out. It is a joke, just like the comment made earlier that this guy who shot Aidan will come out in two years when he's 18 and he'll be Mr Big in East Wall.

They have more legislation than ever to deal with this. They are fu*king bone idle lazy, that's the first problem. If they stepped up their presence when the gang were originally harassing the man who is now dead and arrested the people involved for theft, criminal damage, public disorder and charged the people involved and pressed those charges, maybe he would still be alive today?

dan719 · 12-12-2008 12:42AM

marcsignal wrote: »

has it not been established that this 13 yr old boy is actually a 16 yr old ?

I'm not going to comment on whether he should be strung up or not, but I will say i'm sometimes slightly amused by some of the reactions of some posters that would appear to lean to the left on these issues, who may say: "poor little johnnie, but he's had a very hard and unstable upbringing you know"

I'd guess (and it's just a guess mind), that if this individual was a serial paedophile or rapist, the feminist left would want to cut his balls off without delay. If he was a right wing skinhead who torched a centre for Asylum Seekers and burned several of them to death as they slept, many of those leaning left would want him strung up from the nearest lamp post.

Its just my observation, that peoples principles can sometimes be very 'wishy washy', depending on the circumstances.

Yes I am left leaning as you say i.e a liberal with all the connotations that entails, and may I simply offer the following as an answer to your claim about wishy washy principles, no offence against any persons warrants the death penalty nor some of the extreme punishments offered as 'solutions' to such crimes. The death penalty is inhumane and should not be a part of any thinking culture. Do I give a damn about the (as was pointed out) sixteen year olds sexuality?
I'm sure that when subjected to intelligence and personality tests he will score subnormal, do I think this absolves him of blame?No
Do I think that society as a whole has failed? Yes, in terms of gun control, in terms of provision of education, in terms of curtailing anti social behaviour? Yes I do. Is my response to shoot everyone wearing Burberry? No.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 12:51AM

dan719 wrote: »

Yes I am left leaning as you say i.e a liberal with all the connotations that entails, and may I simply offer the following as an answer to your claim about wishy washy principles, no offence against any persons warrants the death penalty nor some of the extreme punishments offered as 'solutions' to such crimes. The death penalty is inhumane and should not be a part of any thinking culture. In response to the insults, I am indeed a gay atheist. So I suppose that fits a given stereotype. Do I give a damn whether the poor dead man is hetero or homosexual, no. Do I give a damn about the (as was pointed out) sixteen year olds sexuality?
I'm sure that when subjected to intelligence and personality tests he will score subnormal, do I think this absolves him of blame?No
Do I think that society as a whole has failed? Yes, in terms of gun control, in terms of provision of education, in terms of curtailing anti social behaviour? Yes I do. Is my response to shoot everyone wearing Burberry? No.

What in the name of Jesus Christ Almight Tonight has your sexuality or indeed anyone's sexuality got to do with this discussion???

dan719 · 12-12-2008 12:52AM

Darragh29 wrote: »

What in the name of Jesus Christ Almight Tonight has your sexuality or indeed anyone's sexuality got to do with this discussion???

I was merely responding to the claim made of the stereotypical bleeding heart wshy washy liberal. I can edit it out if you like.

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 12:57AM

Darragh29 wrote: »

What in the name of Jesus Christ Almight Tonight has your sexuality or indeed anyone's sexuality got to do with this discussion???

Yeah, me too on that one. And fair cop on the legislation but I think that the Guards are dealing with an army of chaos out there. Store Street is The North Inner City Garda Station and that covers a sh.it load quantity of complete skum who are similar to an infestation of rats. But I get your point all the same. He should not have died.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 12-12-2008 01:07AM

Some of the replies here, although entirely predictable, are despicable. Some people think the solution to violence is.... even more violence.

It's hard to stomach posts like "I hope the Gardai beat them up" getting thanks. The Gardai already beat up scumbags. (And they're not supposed to).

And another post the says something along the lines of, "Ah the PC brigade - I don't know how anyone could think we should tolerate these scumbags". Who said anything about tolerating crime?? By 'tolerating' scumbags, I assume you meant 'not advocating a mob vigilante beating/killing'. If you call ordinary people in Ireland 'liberals', how far entrenched into bone-headed ignorant fascism do you have to be?

Anyway, it's good to see the intelligent people, like Wicknight, talking sense as usual.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 01:24AM

dan719 wrote: »

I was merely responding to the claim made of the stereotypical bleeding heart wshy washy liberal. I can edit it out if you like.

Whether you are a bleeding heart wshy wshy liberal or Anne Coulters missing twin sister, I don't see where your sexuality or anyone else's sexuality comes into it... I'm not offended by your post, I just don't see where the sexuality comes into it...

Scallop · 12-12-2008 11:09AM

these lad are the lowest form of idiots
there is no hope for them whatsoever. They sever every hand that feeds them
Mr O'Kane, The Chinese they hang around. Teachers, people, etc. All they do is destroy everything in their path.

Anybody can take a gun, a brick, hurl obcenities and instill fear into anyone but it takes just the tiniest speck of intelligence to know the afformentioned is wrong so what we have here are people with not a scrap of intelligence between them. It will carry on if they are not stopped.
Already a few of them were gathered last night outside the butcher shop.
One lone Garda walking walking around the area. The previous night a few car windows were smashed in right within metres of the murder scene.
If its gang mentality and safety in numbers (they never say a word when they are on their own on the street, the little sh*ts that they are) then the community needs to get together and show these scumbags how many of us there are that wont tolerate it anymore.
Theres only one language the core of this group understand

What or who's next if nothing is done I keep asking myself.

They have found the weapon along with a load of drugs so hopefully now a few heads will roll

Zulu · 12-12-2008 11:13AM

tech77 wrote: »

Would this be a fair summary of the last few pages:

1) A good few posters, many from East Wall (or other areas affected by oppressive antisocial behaviour) who have to deal with this sh1t on a daily basis, crying out for harsher punishment of these scummers (knowing well that rehab/the softly-softly approach can only do so much).

2) a couple of liberal dissenters (with no real experience of the reality of antisocial scummers) espousing lofty ideals and tut-tutting at anything other than rehabilitation.

...and don't forget 3) the one person who thinks he's got everyone pegged nicly, but is in fact, wrong.
I'm living in East Wall.

Fail.

Zulu · 12-12-2008 11:18AM

marcsignal wrote: »

In this case I would suggest a task force made up of Armed ERU Gardai, Army Personnel, and Uniformed Gardai (Possibly Armed).
The Gardai would esentially be in overall Command of such a Task Force.

* What would the Army do exactly? Just be a presence??
Yes and No. They could be there as a visible show of muscle, but essentially a backup to the ERU.
Every small Patrol could consist of, an ERU Garda in command of an Army Section (2 NCO's and six? men).

* Would you give them the power to restrain people? Even arrest people??
That would be at the discretion of the ERU Garda in command of each section, because, esentially, he would be the one giving the orders.

* Would you train the army in civil law so this would be legit?
This would be a special task force, so some training would be needed. This is certainly do-able, the EU policed the former Yugoslavia, Kosovo and other places. Irish Gardai served there (I know this because my brother in law was one of them) and worked hand in hand with the Military forces stationed there.

* Or are you just looking for a uniformed vigilante group to be present?
Definitely NOT.

I accept that this suggeation seems drastic, but armed gangs cannot be allowed to operate with impunity in this country.
They are threatening the very fabric of our Democracy, they are destroying lives, undermining our National Security, and MUST be removed from the equation, before they totally destroy a whole generation of vulnerable children, and murder anyone else.

Thats a sensible suggestion marcsignal.
However, I'd be concerned on how this would impact the perception of the area.
When it comes to social regeneration, and trying to improve and area, people won't be keen to move into an area that has uniformed soldiers on the streets.

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 11:19AM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Some of the replies here, although entirely predictable, are despicable. Some people think the solution to violence is.... even more violence.

It's hard to stomach posts like "I hope the Gardai beat them up" getting thanks. The Gardai already beat up scumbags. (And they're not supposed to).

And another post the says something along the lines of, "Ah the PC brigade - I don't know how anyone could think we should tolerate these scumbags". Who said anything about tolerating crime?? By 'tolerating' scumbags, I assume you meant 'not advocating a mob vigilante beating/killing'. If you call ordinary people in Ireland 'liberals', how far entrenched into bone-headed ignorant fascism do you have to be?

Anyway, it's good to see the intelligent people, like Wicknight, talking sense as usual.

At the end of the day, what we have here is warfare, and the perpetrators are both kids both adults.

I think people are generally angry because like everything else in this country, this will blow away as soon as the media decide that it isn't selling newspapers anymore. And it will be only a matter of time before East Wall and any other area suffers something similar. And the media will jump on it again. Like joyriding in the early 90's, did it stop? Nope, it just became accepted as a part of skumbag culture. And like someone else said, the murder of Aidan will turn into a court fiasco whereby violins will be played and the murderer will be made to be the victim of society.

In the good old days, locals would have come together and given all of them a proper hiding -

Easteregg · 12-12-2008 11:24AM

Zulu wrote: »

When it comes to social regeneration, and trying to improve and area, people won't be keen to move into an area that has uniformed soldiers on the streets.

As opposed to pretending that everything is Hunky Dorey and its a really safe area?

Social regeneration, improve the area, whats that mean in the context of reality?

RedPlanet · 12-12-2008 11:28AM

During the dark days of the Troubles, some west Belfast communities found themselves in a similar situation regarding scumbags.
People wouldn't ring the RUC as they were an unwelcome force and more than likely, they wouldn't turn up anyway for fear of their own safety.

I read about a particular community that took pictures of these scumbags and posted them around on lampposts, billboards etc. Had unorganised meetings among themselves, and even organised ones. And basically got the scumbags excommunicated from the community. The scumbags wouldn't get served in any shop and were treated as outcasts from everybody in the community.
Now, in the very isolated environment of west belfast during the troubles, that was effective.

Some communities didn't do that, and rather dumped their anti-social problems on the IRA, whom would kneecap, brutalise these scumbags or even give them notice to quit the area.

Darragh29 · 12-12-2008 11:31AM

One thing I've noticed is the complete lack of any outcry around the East Wall area about this, they don't seem too bothered at all by this. I don't see much by way of posts from anyone living in East Wall on here either, kind of says a lot about the whole community over there...

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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