Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 03:35PM

meathmannn wrote: »

Holding the parent's responsible? Fine in the normal world, but these parents dont care.

Maybe they would start to care a bit more if a couple of thousand people landed at their front door looking for an explanation?

gamer · 09-12-2008 03:36PM

There are many estates with 1 or 2 gangs of kids causing havoc,4or 5 kids 12years old up to 17 .They pick on 1 person and harass him/her ,someone like a single woman or man living with 1or 2 kids,they are like jackals ,they prey on the weak,this is happening everyday in working class areas oe suburbs.East wall is a well settled mature area ,for those outside dublin its not a corpo estate,or a ghetto,most people own their own house there.
THESE kids are all all over the country,they are not afraid of the guards,they are bored kids who hang round ,intimidating people ,committing vandalism, there seems to be no proper legal mechanism for dealing with them,they know they wont get arrested until they caught robbing,if they dont like you,they,ll do things like robbing your bin,your bikes, vandalising your car,breaking windows.NOBODY confronts them ,cos its not worth it ,I could be the next victim,its not worth the hassle .what usually happens is the victim ends up selling up ,or leaving the area.IF someone is hanging around,committing vandalism ,or robbing your bike etc week after week ,it Will GET to you,some people get an older gouger
to scare the local gang off ,or else just move to a new estate.
THE council should enforce rules against antisocial behavior ,ie if your kids are causing trouble,intimidating anyone,the whole family will getting evicted ,after a meeting and 1 warning.THERES kids outside till 12 at night ,there parents dont seem to care what they do.THAT man stood out as a victim cos,he was single ,living with 1 young son,thats why he was picked on.
THERES more young kids,using drugs ,drinking at a young age ,so this problem will not go away.THESE kids have no morals,sense of responsibility,or ANY respect for the law ,or peoples rights,they do these things to pass the time,when nobody challenges them ,they get more daring and dangerous.THEY have no moral compass,they have no example of morality or decency from there parents,they are a dangerous underclass.Religion and morality mean nothing to them.IF you go to most council estates you will hear storys of some1 who left cos,they were getting hassle from the local kids.
Thats why i find it strange when i hear ireland is 90percent catholic,
for people like these kids and there parents ,religion is meaningless ,morality is meaningless ,faith is for so called posh people.
This case is just unusual cos it ended in a tragic murder.

Bodie Doyle · 09-12-2008 03:41PM

I have been living in East Wall for the past 4 years. From what I can gather the area has changed dramatically in the last number of years. The "locals" ie people from the area over the past 20-30 odd years, while decent enough folk do not seem very eager to let others into their little community. So we get along with life, try to be polite and keep out of their way. The harrassement Aidan O Kane was receiving has been dished out to many other people who are " not from around here"- as one little fecker said to me last week. The people from East Wall can have their area to themselves and turn it into whatever kip they so desire. I cannot wait to get out.

S.I.R · 09-12-2008 03:46PM

Before ye' know it alls go ranting my i remind you, east wall area used to be nice about 30 years ago till gardener street got re-developed and psuehd all the scum from there into east wall, thus that flith had kids then they had kids and he we are now.

the only problem beign that i live just accross the water from this and cars go missing daily here and end up in east wall...

myself and all the local garages have had enough.... one of these days regardless of the guns they have, reblion shall come.

back on topic: the kid stroked his mates gun, big whoop, fella sounds to me to be a per v anyways so whats with all this pitty ??

Guya · 09-12-2008 03:48PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Maybe they would start to care a bit more if a couple of thousand people landed at their front door looking for an explanation?

Yeah

They don't have morals that relate to the people around them so there needs to be consequences. They will understand that.

Why have Fianna Fáilure and now the green pastry been ignoring this obvious problem tho?
Marching them out is not a solution. Its a short term improvement.
Like giving a cancer victim morphine instead of chemo.

TheNog · 09-12-2008 03:57PM

gamer wrote: »

There are many estates with 1 or 2 gangs of kids causing havoc,4or 5 kids 12years old up to 17 .They pick on 1 person and harass him/her ,someone like a single woman or man living with 1or 2 kids,they are like jackals ,they prey on the weak,this is happening everyday in working class areas oe suburbs.

+1. There are akin to animals who pick on the more vulnerable of society and create a sense of fear or loathing

gamer wrote: »

THESE kids are all all over the country,they are not afraid of the guards,they are bored kids who hang round ,intimidating people ,committing vandalism, there seems to be no proper legal mechanism for dealing with them,they know they wont get arrested until they caught robbing,if they dont like you,they,ll do things like robbing your bin,your bikes, vandalising your car,breaking windows.NOBODY confronts them

Makes a good case of 3 strikes and you are out. What if a youth was given three chances to make good their life. If they don't take up on the offer they are then taken into care and assessed to what actually is the problem with them.

Already a youth who is caught committing a crime and owns up to it are put through the Garda Juvenile Liason Scheme but if they continually commit crime they are brough before the courts where some judges are giving them even more chances. The youth and family will assessed by the probation service to see if there is a chance they will re-offend. Most times they do, sometimes they don't. This will continue until the youth is sent to prison.

gamer wrote: »

THE council should enforce rules against antisocial behavior ,ie if your kids are causing trouble,intimidating anyone,the whole family will getting evicted ,after a meeting and 1 warning.THERES kids outside till 12 at night ,there parents dont seem to care what they do.

Eviction is one idea but where will they go? Live on the streets? or to another council area? The problem is just moved from one area to another.

gamer wrote: »

they are a dangerous underclass.

Right there is a comment I do not agree with. Yes they are thugs but alienating them from the rest of society is not the answer.

gamer wrote: »

Religion and morality mean nothing to them.IF you go to most council estates you will hear storys of some1 who left cos,they were getting hassle from the local kids.
Thats why i find it strange when i hear ireland is 90percent catholic,
for people like these kids and there parents ,religion is meaningless ,morality is meaningless ,faith is for so called posh people.

90% may be Catholic but how many are actually practicing Catholics? That's for another thread I suppose.

Religion in this country is almost as defunct as the video cassette though I do realise that within reilgion there is a teaching of being good to people and doing what is right. This can be taught at home without the aid of religion and defintely without using of some sort of magical spiritual leader.

Dyr · 09-12-2008 04:09PM

TheNog wrote: »

Eviction is one idea but where will they go? Live on the streets? or to another council area? The problem is just moved from one area to another.

I'd gladly see the f***rs on the streets. Across the road from me there's two families of drug dealing scumbag's who act like some sorta scumbag magnet, stolen cars, horses, drinking all night, fights, indimidation. It doesnt affect me because im out of their way but I have relative's who live beside them and their lives are a misery. From what I hear, The gardai want them evicted, the corpo want them evicted, their neighbours want them evicted but the HSE have stopped them because the scumbags have kids. So every other persons kids have to put up with this for the sake of the scumbags kids, and more young lads get turned into scumbags for the sake of some scumbags kids.

If you f****d them and their kids onto the side of the road tomorrow I'd applaud. Actually, you could f***k them and their kids into the canal and I'd probably applaud :eek:

Guya · 09-12-2008 04:13PM

Why is nobody talking about how the government is facilitating this nightmare? The only people with power are being left blameless.

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 04:18PM

Guya wrote: »

Why is nobody talking about how the government is facilitating this nightmare? The only people with power are being left blameless.

Because they are too busy running all over Europe worrying about a useless fu*king treaty and how to get us to ratify it.

They don't give a fu*k about this sort of thing. They don't care because they don't think that we care about it.

I don't know abut other folk on here but I'm seriously starting to run out of patience with this kind of stuff...

Guya · 09-12-2008 04:25PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Because they are too busy running all over Europe worrying about a useless fu*king treaty and how to get us to ratify it.

They don't give a fu*k about this sort of thing. They don't care because they don't think that we care about it.

I don't know abut other folk on here but I'm seriously starting to run out of patience with this kind of stuff...

And thats that?
Are we supposed to accept it?
Kids with guns is not just another issue to be sidefooted.
It will happen again if we let the TDs ignore it.

Their houses(homes) deserve to be marched on too.
They don't think of this when they go home at night

SpookyDoll · 09-12-2008 04:25PM

They don't give a fu*k about this sort of thing. They don't care because they don't think that we care about it.

I would go further, I would say the Govt dont care not because they think we dont care (since when have they had a jot of interest in what the public thinks...)

They dont care because it doesn't affect them personally, thats why.

These scumbags are cocking a snoop at the Law, Society, everything and everybody because they CAN, and they can do so with near impunity.

As I said before a 13 year old has free will and the power of reason and therefore should stand trial for murder. Murder in the first degree, premediated murder.

End of.

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 04:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Put him in prison. Try rehabilitate him at your own risk... he can live next to you after

Er, ok. Not sure you have thought that one through.

When he gets out of prison after no attempt has been made to rehabilitate him at all (rehabilitation is after all simply liberal wishy washy buy them all PlayStations nonsense, right!) do you want him living beside you?

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 04:35PM

Guya wrote: »

And thats that?
Are we supposed to accept it?
Kids with guns is not just another issue to be sidefooted.
It will happen again if we let the TDs ignore it.

Their houses(homes) deserve to be marched on too.
They don't think of this when they go home at night

This family should not be able to sleep at night, due to the thousands of protesters at their front door. Same goes for the Minister for Justice, what the fu*k is he doing when a 13 year old is running around town with a loaded handgun shooting innocent people??? We should take a leaf out of the pensioners books and tell these people that they can do what they like from here on in but we won't be putting up with anymore of this.

120_Minutes · 09-12-2008 04:43PM

when those with alleged authority actually have none, thats when people take the law into their own hands.

Vigilante justice will come, and when it does those in power will ask how did it come to this?

the answer is that they left the law abiding citizens of this country no choice.

when the only solution is facism, you'd be surprised how many will opt for it.

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 04:44PM

Guya wrote: »

Its time to treat them like the animals they have become. Stop others turning into animals and treating people like prey.

I love this joined up thinking

Step 1) Threat scum bag kids really badly, heck beat the crap out of them
Step 2) ???
Step 3) No more problems

Care to expand on step 2 a bit more ... ?

Guya wrote: »

These kids need to be whipped so bad that others like them can see consequences. Its basic human rights.

You think these kids don't get beaten up all the time, by other kids, their parents, adults? You don't think they get humiliated and beaten down all the time?

They are precisely this way because of that. It isn't a cure, it is the problem in the first place.

These kids are aggressive and violent because they live in an aggressive violent world where macho postering and aggression are the only signs of strength and worth. Cause and effect, as I said earlier.

If you beat them down you simply humiliate them. And the very next thing they do is strike back at a soft target to rebuild their sense of standing. You beat up one of these kids the first thing he will do, the very first thing, is go and beat up someone else to make himself feel better.

I find it highly ironic that it is the exact sort of behavior in these child that we are horrified by that we then suggest as the solution. It simply becomes a contest over who can beat the other person down hardest.

The instinct that everyone here seems to have to resolve problems which as much violence as physically possible is exactly the same instinct that is running through these kids heads 24/7.

If you want to see the problem with these kids, the problem with Ireland/UK in general, the Asbo generation, you simply have to take a look in the mirror.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 09-12-2008 04:45PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

This family should not be able to sleep at night, due to the thousands of protesters at their front door. Same goes for the Minister for Justice, what the fu*k is he doing when a 13 year old is running around town with a loaded handgun shooting innocent people??? We should take a leaf out of the pensioners books and tell these people that they can do what they like from here on in but we won't be putting up with anymore of this.

Ok, your the one shouting loudest for protest action.

You lead the charge and we'll row in behind you, or at least meet you for a boards.ie beers in 'The Wharf

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 04:46PM

I'm not saying violence is the answer, but these people who are supposed to be running the fu*king country clearly have their priorities wrong at the moment and it falls to us to bring this to their attention now.

Guya · 09-12-2008 04:47PM

I would love to know if there are any terrorist laws in Ireland that don't take age into account.

They are true terrorists, because the man they killed tryed to help them. In return they stole his tools, motorbike, even his dog to get money out of him.

On a scale of total freedom to opression, discipline is the centre. The state gives these kids total freedom just becaues they are under 18. Its time they got some discipline that borders on opressive. We now know that its needed. Nobody can argue that they don't deserve it. They systematically harassed a nice man. Lack of discipline ended with his murder.

Darragh29 · 09-12-2008 04:51PM

Mairt wrote: »

Ok, your the one shouting loudest for protest action.

You lead the charge and we'll row in behind you, or at least meet you for a boards.ie beers in 'The Wharf

In typically Irish fashion, I seem to be the only person prepared to protest over this.

lottodrink · 09-12-2008 04:57PM

I reckon that house arrest should be brought into Ireland like they have in the states. Ya know the tracking device they stick on ur leg? Dont even know if it is real but iv seen it in Prison Break and that film Disturbia. I dunno, I'm from a rough area n have no problem at home! The kids just play football on the road n keep to themselves.

East Wall is a dump... I was jumped on by about 12 lads a few years back in the area its a kip. these lads where in their 20s pissed drunk so I could have been bottled luckily enough I wasnt tho!!

I wonder where the little f***er got a gun at his age though!! Was it definetely him that shot the man??

SpookyDoll · 09-12-2008 05:03PM

oh the good old favourite eh, the "abuse excuse"... it excuses nothing and to presume thats the reason for all this anti social behaviour is inaccurate and simplistic.

Its the very reason the softly, softly social worker approach is a massive, comprehensive FAILURE.

Yes, there are certainly individuals who have known nothing but serious abuse in their lives, but it certainly does not exuse murder, torture etc
It doesnt, we are not animals, we have free will. So please spare me the violins for them.

As well as these individuals we also have those who grew up in perfectly respectable homes with parents who tried their damndest to control them and instill morality in them, but who were determined to carve out a reputation as a hardman/woman.

You get both types in every strata of criminality, if this young lad was determined to make himself a name he did, thats the reality.

He will no doubt throw up every trick in the book to delay/avoid any kind of consequences while laughing roundly up his sleeve. Some judges will fall for it and there will be a queue of social workers, community liason officers and all the rest there to support him and build up his case whining on about how deprived he was, fook him, I dont give one sh1t how deprived he was, its irrelevant.

Until such time as the law grows a set of balls these mini gangsters will merrily continue their stranglehold on society.

Yes we need nuanced law but NOT at the expense of common sense.
These types are playing the law like a fiddle and all the cloud Cuckoo land libs with their cosy ideologies are helping them.

120_Minutes · 09-12-2008 05:08PM

military enforced curfew FTW

yes, it has come to this.

lottodrink · 09-12-2008 05:09PM

Thats not gonna happen tho

Ulysses Gaze · 09-12-2008 05:11PM

When he gets out of prison after no attempt has been made to rehabilitate him at all (rehabilitation is after all simply liberal wishy washy buy them all PlayStations nonsense, right!) do you want him living beside you?

Do you have stats on the success of prison rehabiliation?

Btw the cops in the area run a type of 'mentoring' system with young offenders; trying to dissuade them from returning to a life of crime etc . It has a 50% success rate. Still leaves 50% of these toe-rags running around causing mayhem.

I'd be surprised if rehabilitation manages to impact on 50% of the prison populace. Not suggesting that we SHOULDN'T try it....but let's face it there are some people who are beyond help. And a 15 year old who guns down a man is beyond help. Just my opinion.

Solution? 35 years in prison (and I mean the full whack) where he is forced to 'work' (breaking rocks, building roads whatever)...try rehabiliation as well (let them get the Leaving, College Degrees etc). But murder is murder...and at 15 you know right from wrong.

lottodrink · 09-12-2008 05:18PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Do you have stats on the success of prison rehabiliation?

Btw the cops in the area run a type of 'mentoring' system with young offenders; trying to dissuade them from returning to a life of crime etc . It has a 50% success rate. Still leaves 50% of these toe-rags running around causing mayhem.

I'd be surprised if rehabilitation manages to impact on 50% of the prison populace. Not suggesting that we SHOULDN'T try it....but let's face it there are some people who are beyond help. And a 15 year old who guns down a man is beyond help. Just my opinion.

Solution? 35 years in prison (and I mean the full whack) where he is forced to 'work' (breaking rocks, building roads whatever)...try rehabiliation as well (let them get the Leaving, College Degrees etc). But murder is murder...and at 15 you know right from wrong.

I'd give him a life sentence and a proper one not just 7 years or whatever life is over here!! I'm talking he doesnt get out full stop kinda like the death sentence only you have to live with what you have done in a ****ty little cell for the rest of your life!! No playstations or TV like they have in prisons nowadays!!
I'm getting out of this kip we call a country!! A tourist got a life sentence in Jamaica for smashing a window a few years back n what do we get for murder!!!

Ulysses Gaze · 09-12-2008 05:23PM

only you have to live with what you have done in a ****ty little cell for the rest of your life!! No playstations or TV like they have in prisons nowadays!!

Nice idea...but due to Human Rights treaties (such as the European Convention on Human Rights) we have signed up to...if you start forcing people to work, or keep them in "intolerable" conditions...they will take the Government to court.

Therein lies the problem.

Guya · 09-12-2008 05:25PM

Hey Wicknight

Step 1) Threat scum bag kids really badly, heck beat the crap out of them
Step 2) ???
Step 3) No more problems

Care to expand on step 2 a bit more ... ?

First off you shouldn't stereotype all kids who commit crime as "scumbags". Its a useless subjective term.(Anabels)

As it stands, it is illegal to punish these kids.
Its only a punishment if the kid sees it as a punishment

Behavioural change is possible.
step 1) positive feed back, talk about the good possible - if this works we're laughin and there is no step two. If not...

Step 2) negative feedfack, give out to the brat- no need to "beat the crap out of them". If that goes well, go back to step one, its the most important step. If not...

Step 3) discipline - still no need to beat the crap out of them Wicknight. If this works, keep it working by going back to step one. If not..

Step 4) state discipline - If the child is abusing people in public, man's bike or dog. If this works etc...

Step 5) State sanctioned corporal punishment - If the child murders a good man, father and neighbour in cold blood, whip him so that other evil people might not. Don't forget to return to step one where any positive behaviour occurres

One day he may tell his kids not to harass people because they might get a lash of a whip. These people only care about themselves. So do something that affects them.

Or we could love and nurture them when its ten years too late. Keep letting them run free with the dogs in East Wall as they are at the moment.

lottodrink · 09-12-2008 05:34PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Nice idea...but due to Human Rights treaties (such as the European Convention on Human Rights) we have signed up to...if you start forcing people to work, or keep them in "intolerable" conditions...they will take the Government to court.

Therein lies the problem.

It's all a load of crap isnt it!! I know people that are and have been in jail and its nothing to them, they have all the things they had at home, TV, Computer games etc.. Even mobile phones?? Whats the point in locking them up if their getting all that!!

I'll be living in New York for a while next year with some luck!!

Br4tPr1nc3 · 09-12-2008 05:38PM

the only possible chance of rehabilitation is to look at the prison systems.
hard labhour isnt an option, because that means they still get all their little pleasentries after doin their 8 hour shift.

no, thats not enough, there needs to be pretty much no human interaction for their entitre prison sentence, theyre given nothing and not aloud to have anything.
think about it, sitting in a small room with no real view, and no one else to talk to, that will have an effect on you.
no drugs to pass the time, no newspapers or books to relieve boredom.
just simply locked in a small room for 23 hours a day,(well at least untill they come up with a way to allow them to excersize for an hour in their room),
now that would be a horrible existence.
imagine a year in that environment.
that would make someone think twice when theyre released.

scumbags these days are put into hotels, not prisons.
they have easy access to telly, newspapers, books, smokes, drugs, and other people to socialize with. theyre fully taken care of while in there.
take all that away, give them the very bare essentials for survival, food and medical care.

Guya · 09-12-2008 05:43PM

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Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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