Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

Dragan

ALFIET wrote: »

Seriously??? Ok so parents dont know exactly wot their kids are up to 100% of the time, granted!

I imagine this line nicely devalidates whatever the rest of your post says but i'll read on anyway because i'm a glutton for punishments.

And i am not in favour of vigilantism or marching on anyones home. Everyone has a right to be safe in their own home.

HOWEVER, parents have to hold SOME of the accountability for their childrens actions esp when those children are under 16 yrs of age!

I find it hard to accept living in a civilised economy where parents are not made accountable to their responsibilities as parents!

But this is more than just about the parents. It is about crime and punishment!

ASBOs dont work! They are like badges of honour. The Punishment needs to fit the crime!

And is it not a little strange that a 19 yr old woman wants to hang around with a 13 yr old kid..... or is that just me remembering being that age?

I was right.

Dragan

Darragh29 wrote: »

As I said, what the fu*k were these parents doing while their kid was running the streets with a handgun??? Were they down in the pub??? Did they not notice that their kid was out of control???

Because according to reports I'm reading this morning, the rest of the fu*king community noticed it to such a degree that they held a public meeting within the last 2 weeks with Gardai and local representatives and predicted at this meeting that someone in the community would be killed???

So the rest of the community have noticed this, but this kids own parents didn't notice that their kid was so out of control, that someone's life was at risk???

All I'm asking is, at what point does the whole community say, "ah here, we've had enough of this!"???

And how do you know the kid was not making the parents life hell as well?

So, we have a whole community who allowed local kids to run amoke and cause terror and they want to blame the parents for their own inability to stand up for themselves?

ALFIET

RedPlanet wrote: »

Don't try dumping this off onto schools. Their job is to educate, not disipline. These kids are a disruptive influence in their schools and administrators need to be able to expel them; but the reality is the Dept of Education undermines them, the kids don't get expeled and the entire school and education system suffer.

Noone is trying to dump this on anyone point.

My point was that ALL those in authority need to be able to act.

The Educational System (rather than schools alone) needs to be able to take a strong hand in acting when they are faced with problematic kids.

My point is that all of us seem to have become paralysed by inaction.

As i said i dont have the answers but i am so frustrated and annoyed and feel that we all must do something rather than just talk about how awful it is and then it fades into memory until the next horrific act.

I can empathise then with those who wish to march on the parents house but again as per earlier, this would not achieve anything effective to the overall problem.

Latchy

Dragan wrote: »

And how do you know the kid was not making the parents life hell as well?

So, we have a whole community who allowed local kids to run amoke and cause terror and they want to blame the parents for their own inability to stand up for themselves?

That's just the thing ,if our children are taught responsibility and accountability from an early age then hopefully they will carry that into their teen years . Committing a wrong is one thing but Knowing the difference can be the turning point for many away from going down the slippery slope of anti social and more serious crime .

stovelid

ALFIET wrote: »

I find it hard to accept living in a civilised economy where parents are not made accountable to their responsibilities as parents!

I'm taking an educated guess that a large majority of the posters here have never set foot (let alone lived) in a area with these kind of social problems. While there are bad parents, you cannot make blanket statements about the extent to which parents are responsible for their children, especially teenage boys.

When I think of the kids that I knew that got into serious trouble, some did fit the mould of coming from families of generational neglect, but quite a few had parents that tried their best. Often, they were from household with a single mother trying to control one or more teenage boys.

One teenager on my street (who was quite well known in the tabloids at the time for the kind of activity in the OP, including guns) had 3 other siblings: one who was admittedly a junkie and into crime, but the other two were completely 'respectable'.

I'm not excusing anything, just saying that mob protests and blanket assumptions are wrong.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Darragh29 wrote: »

Because according to reports I'm reading this morning, the rest of the fu*king community noticed it to such a degree that they held a public meeting within the last 2 weeks with Gardai and local representatives and predicted at this meeting that someone in the community would be killed???

Yes there was a public meeting. But it wasn't called SOLELY because of anti-social behavious in the neighbour. It was to discuss ongoing problems like traffic, empty/unsold apartments in new developements, flood defences (some parts of Eastwall experience almost annual flooding).

The reports people are reading are not reported in their full context.

Listen, there's a load of little bastards running wild down there. Some come from great families, others from families who would have been put to sleep if they were dogs.

Eastwall is like a lot of communities in this country, but I'll tell you what its not.

Its not an urban sprawl, its not an inner city ghetto. Its not piss poor like some people will have us believe. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted I took my family out of the area. But it ain't the picture being portrayed in the media.

Darragh29

Mairt wrote: »

You know what, your talking BS.

I am in my boll*x talking BS mate. You tell that to the family of the man lying in a morgue fridge this morning.

Mairt wrote: »

You don't know the situation in Eastwall, within an hour of this shooting most people heard the name of the shooter.

His father is a close family friend of my in-laws, and he's like any other father of any other teenager anywhere in the world. He's destroyed, he's lost and wondering whats happened and how.

He's not like any father I know. Father's I know have not reared kids that are running the streets at night with a handgun. And don't think I live in some posh town, I grew up in Ballyfermot in the 80's when nobody had a pot to p*ss into and the whole place was out of control, heroin was everywhere. I didn't fall into that scene because I was brought up better.

Darragh29

Mairt wrote: »

Yes there was a public meeting. But it wasn't called SOLELY because of anti-social behavious in the neighbour. It was to discuss ongoing problems like traffic, empty/unsold apartments in new developements, flood defences (some parts of Eastwall experience almost annual flooding).

The reports people are reading are not reported in their full context.

Listen, there's a load of little bastards running wild down there. Some come from great families, others from families who would have been put to sleep if they were dogs.

Eastwall is like a lot of communities in this country, but I'll tell you what its not.

Its not an urban sprawl, its not an inner city ghetto. Its not piss poor like some people will have us believe. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted I took my family out of the area. But it ain't the picture being portrayed in the media.

So there was a public meeting, and in the middle of discussing costal protections and traffic management, someone just decided to throw it out onto the floor that, "by the way, gangs were running amok in the area you know and someone will imminently be killed if action was not taken"???

:mad::mad::mad:

Dragan

Darragh29 wrote: »

He's not like any father I know. Father's I know have not reared kids that are running the streets at night with a handgun. And don't think I live in some posh town, I grew up in Ballyfermot in the 80's when nobody had a pot to p*ss into and the whole place was out of control, heroin was everywhere. I didn't fall into that scene because I was brought up better.

LoL, and you didn't go to school with a single kid who was a little cnut but had decent parents, and if you turn around in 5 years time and, for whatever reason, turn to crime then that is your Father's fault?

Will you please get real Darragh.

gazzer

Mairt wrote: »

His father is a close family friend of my in-laws, and he's like any other father of any other teenager anywhere in the world. He's destroyed, he's lost and wondering whats happened and how.
.

Sorry but I dont buy that. He is not like my father. Its his responsibility to know what his child is up to. I grew up in O'Devaney Gardens in the 80's where there was 80% unemployment. My father got involved in running the local soccer team, my mother got involved with countless community groups. Both tried their very best to help the children in the area. They and other parents like them could only do so much. Unfortunatley a lot of parents in the area used it as a babysitting service so they could go off drinking or taking drugs etc while their children were being looked after by responsible people.

If I was told I had to be in by 9pm then by god I had to be home by then. If my mother or father looked out and couldnt see me in the area one of them would walk around and look for me and see who I was with. They didnt just let me walk outside and think their work was done. They were proactive and made sure they knew where I was and that I wasnt up to anything dodgy. T

stovelid

Darragh29 wrote: »

I grew up in Ballyfermot in the 80's when nobody had a pot to p*ss into and the whole place was out of control, heroin was everywhere. I didn't fall into that scene because I was brought up better.

You may as well be one of the law and order d4 heads, bashing 'scumbag' areas if that's all you learned from your upbringing. I've no respect for somebody that comes from that background and has zero empathy for less fortunate contemporaries.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Darragh29 wrote: »

I am in my boll*x talking BS mate. You tell that to the family of the man lying in a morgue fridge this morning.



He's not like any father I know. Father's I know have not reared kids that are running the streets at night with a handgun. And don't think I live in some posh town, I grew up in Ballyfermot in the 80's when nobody had a pot to p*ss into and the whole place was out of control, heroin was everywhere. I didn't fall into that scene because I was brought up better.

And you think that kids father raised him to use handgun's and shoot innocent people?.

Don't be silly, your just losing the rag. And I understand completely where your coming from, I'd be feeling the same if I this was in Ballyfermot, or an estate in Limerick. Because I don't know these area's and could only go on what I read in the media.

All I'm saying to you is the picture painted of Eastwall in the media isn't complete. Thats all, mostly its a fine community and not unlike what the majority of us here live in.

I was thinking about this last night, and tried to imagine this was my son. And honestly, I felt a physical hurt. I think my son is a brilliant lad, I try my very best to guide him through his teens. But once he's out with his mates we're at the mercy of god, and every parent will tell you the same if they're being honest.

Dragan

gazzer wrote: »

If I was told I had to be in by 9pm then by god I had to be home by then. If my mother or father looked out and couldnt see me in the area one of them would walk around and look for me and see who I was with. They didnt just let me walk outside and think their work was done. They were proactive and made sure they knew where I was and that I wasnt up to anything dodgy. T

What would they have done if you decided not to?

And what would they had done if you decided to go off the rails a bit?

I ****ing hate this bull**** about the "way i was raised" as if people had no say in what they did as a kid. You behaved because you wanted to behave.

Was your father a great role model? Sure sounds like it. Could you have disobeyed him if YOU wanted to. Of course you could.

ALFIET

Dragan wrote: »

I imagine this line nicely devalidates whatever the rest of your post says but i'll read on anyway because i'm a glutton for punishments.



I was right.

Oh my god, seriously wot do you suggest?

I am a realist and appreciate that there are difficulties on every side but that doesnt give us the right to ignore the issue or try to rectify the issue.

Do you honestly not believe that there has to be SOME (not ALL) accountability for a parent for the actions of a 13 yr old...

Dragan

ALFIET wrote: »

Oh my god, seriously wot do you suggest?

I am a realist and appreciate that there are difficulties on every side but that doesnt give us the right to ignore the issue or try to rectify the issue.

Do you honestly not believe that there has to be SOME (not ALL) accountability for a parent for the actions of a 13 yr old...

No. I believe that parents have accountability for the lessons that they teach their kids and the type of role models that they are.

I believe kids will look at these lessons and decide what they do and don't want to be a part of.

And you have no ****ing notion what lessons those parents may have thought to teach their son, instead you just assume that they are as guilty as he is.

ALFIET

All I'm saying to you is the picture painted of Eastwall in the media isn't complete. Thats all, mostly its a fine community and not unlike what the majority of us here live in.

I was thinking about this last night, and tried to imagine this was my son. And honestly, I felt a physical hurt. I think my son is a brilliant lad, I try my very best to guide him through his teens. But once he's out with his mates we're at the mercy of god, and every parent will tell you the same if they're being honest.[/quote]

So as a parent of a teenager what would you do if you kid started getting into trouble (god forbid, i pray this doesnt befall you) - What do you suggest?

What would your kid suggest we do to try to stop this?

And I for one am not focussing my comments on East Wall. God we could be taking about any community in ireland. We all know there is good and bad everywhere!

arybvtcw0eolkf

gazzer wrote: »

Sorry but I dont buy that. He is not like my father. Its his responsibility to know what his child is up to. I grew up in O'Devaney Gardens in the 80's where there was 80% unemployment. My father got involved in running the local soccer team, my mother got involved with countless community groups. Both tried their very best to help the children in the area. They and other parents like them could only do so much. Unfortunatley a lot of parents in the area used it as a babysitting service so they could go off drinking or taking drugs etc while their children were being looked after by responsible people.

If I was told I had to be in by 9pm then by god I had to be home by then. If my mother or father looked out and couldnt see me in the area one of them would walk around and look for me and see who I was with. They didnt just let me walk outside and think their work was done. They were proactive and made sure they knew where I was and that I wasnt up to anything dodgy. T

Well thats great, but my parents were the complete opposite of yours. I turned out grand, in fact I'm very proud of what I've acheived in both my career and in raring my family.

I'm like your parents in so far as I've been involved in my local GAA teams, I've coached kickboxing, my son is a competative kickboxer - he comes to all my Judo competitions with me.

He comes to as many MMA shows as we can fit in, we shoot and fish together. All the things the good parenting skills book will tell me to do, but I'm not neive enough to believe that he's a little angel once he's out with him buddies I can only hope, and in the last two days pray, that he's safe.

stovelid

Dragan wrote: »

Was your father a great role model? Sure sounds like it. Could you have disobeyed him if YOU wanted to. Of course you could.

I agree with this (and Mairt).

My Dad did his best, laid down the ground rules and set a good example, but they hadn't a clue what went on once you left the house. Teenage boys are the most stupid, impressionable pack-animals you can find. Do people think you should imprison teenagers until the hit 18?

Darragh29

Dragan wrote: »

LoL, and you didn't go to school with a single kid who was a little cnut but had decent parents, and if you turn around in 5 years time and, for whatever reason, turn to crime then that is your Father's fault?

Will you please get real Darragh.

No, from my memory, there was a simple enough correlation between kids who had parents who brought them up and were effective & positive role models and took their parental responsibilties seriously, even in the face of wider adverse circumstances within the community, and then kids who had parents who spent their whole time in the pub and couldn't even get their kids to school in the morning...

The kid who shot this man did not have decent parents, you cannot claim to be a fu*king decent parent when your 13 year old is running the streets with a loaded handgun! I'm not talking about robbing an orchard here, this is someone shot dead!?!?! What part of this are you not getting???

gazzer

Dragan wrote: »

Was your father a great role model? Sure sounds like it. Could you have disobeyed him if YOU wanted to. Of course you could.

I dont get what you are trying to say!. The point is I DIDNT want to disobey him. Why would I have wanted to disobey my father? I had great respect for him and I knew he was only doing what he did for my own good. He wasnt beating ten types of ****e out of me so that I would have a fear of him. He used words and actions to show me what was right and wrong.

arybvtcw0eolkf

ALFIET wrote: »

So as a parent of a teenager what would you do if you kid started getting into trouble (god forbid, i pray this doesnt befall you) - What do you suggest? !

Honestly, I haven't got a clue. Like I said earlier, I thought about this when the shooting happened. I tried to imagine what the shooters parents felt, and honest I really did feel a physical pain.

I just can't give you an answer and I'd rather not just spew out some bullsh*t answer to an honest question.

ALFIET wrote: »

What would your kid suggest we do to try to stop this?!

Excellent question, I didn't ask him. But tonight I will.

ALFIET

Mairt wrote: »

Eastwall is like a lot of communities in this country, but I'll tell you what its not.

Its not an urban sprawl, its not an inner city ghetto. Its not piss poor like some people will have us believe. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted I took my family out of the area. But it ain't the picture being portrayed in the media.

Fair play Mairt, Eastwall IS an area full of hardworking and decent folk including my own family who also made the decision to leave it. Since then I have since moved on to what is considered a respectable affluent area and yes, we have our own problematic teenagers. Some who try to emulate the actions of the older teenagers but are generally good kids underneath it all. If they are caught and tackled now, hopefully they will have a shot!

Some of the teenagers unfortunately are little gurriers who deserve to have the book thrown at them for what they are doing to people in my neighbourhood including mothers with their children, elderly etc etc

I dread having to face the difficulties parents these days are facing trying to bring up teenagers ( either girls or boys - each as bad) and sympathise with those who are geniunely trying their best.

but if we take the conversation focus away from the area of Eastwall and focus more on the bigger picture of Ireland today - do we not need to take action of some description and i am not taking baying crowds roaming the streets! I mean politicians, gardai, legislation, educational system, communities as a whole, parents etc etc

As i said earlier i live near some really problematic teens and i know myself how hard it is to 1. live there and not feel threatened but 2. actually tackle the issue. Fear is a terrible thing.

But i work hard and want to bring children into a safer environ. and dont want to stick my head in the sand any longer. My frustrations stem from the inability to be able to do anything constructive.... or at least my perception of inability.

Darragh29

Mairt wrote: »

And you think that kids father raised him to use handgun's and shoot innocent people?.

No, I think the father has failed if ever there was a failure, to teach his kid respect for:

(1) Firstly himself (the kid in question), by allowing the kid to hang around with scumbags in the area. Why did this kid not have the opinion, "hang on, I want to do something with my life and have a future, not hang out with local scum shooting people dead"???

(2) His family.

(3) His community.

This kids father and mother are an utter failure. If they have other children, they should be taken off them and put into care for fear they are also running around with loaded handguns and might start shooting innocent citizens dead.

Latchy

My son is 18 .He is studying business management at college .His was involved in his local school council since he was 8 .He has a part time job in a schu shop and is also a part time steward at the the Arena concert venue .He has a good social network of friends from a variety of backgrounds and neighbourhoods. He goes to gym twice a week and is presently going for his driving test .I remember when he was about 10 we were walking past a large group of youths who's favorite pastime was and is to hang around outside the local off licience ,usually passing lewd or nasty comments at all and sundry .I told him ' son , you see most of those guys ' ? when you are there age they will still be standing there doing nothing 'zero ' with their lives . He took notice .They still are there except some have just being replaced by others .He can look after himself and is nobodys fool .I think his mother and I have so far done a reasonably good job or raring him and our daughter . We feel proud but also lucky when we see how easy some lads, for all kinds of reason ruin their lives .Bad. parenting and not being accountable have a lot to do with it .

Darragh29

ALFIET wrote: »

Fair play Mairt, Eastwall IS an area full of hardworking and decent folk including my own family who also made the decision to leave it. Since then I have since moved on to what is considered a respectable affluent area and yes, we have our own problematic teenagers. Some who try to emulate the actions of the older teenagers but are generally good kids underneath it all. If they are caught and tackled now, hopefully they will have a shot!

Some of the teenagers unfortunately are little gurriers who deserve to have the book thrown at them for what they are doing to people in my neighbourhood including mothers with their children, elderly etc etc

I dread having to face the difficulties parents these days are facing trying to bring up teenagers ( either girls or boys - each as bad) and sympathise with those who are geniunely trying their best.

but if we take the conversation focus away from the area of Eastwall and focus more on the bigger picture of Ireland today - do we not need to take action of some description and i am not taking baying crowds roaming the streets! I mean politicians, gardai, legislation, educational system, communities as a whole, parents etc etc

As i said earlier i live near some really problematic teens and i know myself how hard it is to 1. live there and not feel threatened but 2. actually tackle the issue. Fear is a terrible thing.

But i work hard and want to bring children into a safer environ. and dont want to stick my head in the sand any longer. My frustrations stem from the inability to be able to do anything constructive.... or at least my perception of inability.

This is nothing to do with East Wall, no more than 2 Polish men stabbed to death by kids last March had anything to do with Drimnagh. In a few months time when it happens again, it will be someone else, it's not something that's in the water in these communities...

ALFIET

Darragh29 wrote: »

No, I think the father has failed if ever there was a failure, to teach his kid respect for:

(1) Firstly himself (the kid in question), by allowing the kid to hang around with scumbags in the area. Why did this kid not have the opinion, "hang on, I want to do something with my life and have a future, not hang out with local scum shooting people dead"???

(2) His family.

(3) His community.

This kids father and mother are an utter failure. If they have other children, they should be taken off them and put into care for fear they are also running around with loaded handguns and might start shooting innocent citizens dead.

Wooooooooooow! I am ALL for parent accountability but the kids shouldnt just be removed from the parental home just like that!

ALFIET

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is nothing to do with East Wall, no more than 2 Polish men stabbed to death by kids last March had anything to do with Drimnagh. In a few months time when it happens again, it will be someone else, it's not something that's in the water in these communities...

My point exactly. I dont want the conversation focussing on one specific area. This problem could have occured anywhere!

Dragan

gazzer wrote: »

I dont get what you are trying to say!. The point is I DIDNT want to disobey him. Why would I have wanted to disobey my father? I had great respect for him and I knew he was only doing what he did for my own good. He wasnt beating ten types of ****e out of me so that I would have a fear of him. He used words and actions to show me what was right and wrong.

Exactly, mine did the same and still i strayed. Not for any reason my parents could control, or remove, or have any power over. I went through my teenage years with a complete inability to deal with what was going on in my life and i turned to drugs, to violence and all the usual ones.

Why? Because i wanted to.

Eventually i would get back onto the straight and narrow but i put my parents through hell, and all they ever wanted for me was to be safe and happy and to have opportuinity, so when i see rubbish like "it's the parents fault" being trotted out i take that as a direct insult to my parents who were good, honest, hard working people.

Like i have already said, people have no idea what was in the mind of that kid, and they have no idea how his parents tried to raise him.

arybvtcw0eolkf

latchyco wrote: »

My son is 18 .He is studying business management at college .His was involved in his local school council since he was 8 .He has a part time job in a schu shop and is also a part time steward at the the Arena concert venue .He has a good social network of friends from a variety of backgrounds and neighbourhoods. He goes to gym twice a week and is presently going for his driving test .I remember when he was about 10 we were walking past a large group of youths who's favorite pastime was and is to hang around outside the local off licience ,usually passing lewd or nasty comments at all and sundry .I told him ' son , you see most of those guys ' ? when you are there age they will still be standing there doing nothing 'zero ' with their lives . He took notice .They still are there except some have just being replaced by others .He can look after himself and is nobodys fool .I think his mother and I have so far done a reasonably good job or raring him and our daughter . We feel proud but also lucky when we see how easy some lads, for all kinds of reason ruin their lives .Bad. parenting and not being accountable have a lot to do with it .

I could have typed all that too!.. Almost the same here, although my son is only 17, but is hoping to study business management too.

Bad parenting has a huge amount to do with our social ills, but las Dragan posted earlier (and I've often thought Dragan to be wise beyond his years and life experience) teenage boys are the stupiest, the dumb things to grace shoe leather (ok not his EXACT words, but I got his meaning).

How in gods name a child got his hands on a gun beats the sh*t out of me, but I doubt Daddy gave it to him.

Darragh29

ALFIET wrote: »

Wooooooooooow! I am ALL for parent accountability but the kids shouldnt just be removed from the parental home just like that!

Just like that, just for allowing their child to walk the streets with a loaded handgun and just because that kid pointed a loaded gun at an innocent man and pulled the trigger and shot the man fu*king dead where he stood, I think if that father and mother have any other kids, that the state should step in, take the kids off the parents and put them into care, I make absolutely no apology whatsoever for having that view.

Honestly, you'd swear the kid slashed the mans tyres or robbed his fu*king orchard the way you are discussing it on here.

What would this kid have to do, for you to arrive at the conclusion that his parents cannot control him or his other siblings if he has any??? Maybe if he got his hands on a machine gun and mowed down 30-40 innocent people walking down O' Connnell Street??? Maybe then he would be "out of control" as per your own understanding of the phrase???