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Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

12467…17

Comments

  • #92
    TheNog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Jonty wrote: »
    I don'y know about that Mairt, the guards and guns don't mix. Look at that attempted bank raid in Athy years ago, the guards shot more innocent bystanders with shotguns than they did bad guys, and look at the detective that shot himself in the squadcar in Abbeyleix by accident a couple of years ago.

    The Athy bank job was a bit of a mess alright but the Abbeyleix incident was not self inflicted. That guard was actually hit by a ricochet from another guard's weapon. If I remember correctly the ricochet came from a specifically designed pump shotgun used to disable an engine block when one of the three cars tried to ram its way out of the raid.

    Overheal wrote: »
    Only in America

    I'm sorry for the guy, but you all fúcking earned this one with your arrogance.

    Wha???


  • #93
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    An Fear Aniar wrote: »
    Exactly. Poverty is not the cause of crime. It is not an excuse.

    An excuse? Oh for crying out loud :rolleyes:

    Poverty is a factor in crime.

    Without knowing who this kid who shot the man is it is impossible to say if it had any bearing on this particular crime (he could have been from a mansion in Howth for all we know), but the nonsense that is coming out of this thread is just unbelievable. Poverty doesn't cause crime, living conditions had no effect on this kid, society doesn't influence people, you can say anything about his parents ... Nonsense

    The simple fact of the matter is that humans are animals. We have in build instincts and behaviour controls and if you f**k with them you will produce a human being that is damaged, broken, that does not work and that will be violent and aggressive.

    That has nothing to do with blame, it is simply cause and effect.

    You can blame the person all you like, but ultimately that is pointless because they are already broken, and blame is simply an attempt to invoke guilt in the person. Fine on normal people, doesn't work on psychopaths.

    You either try and fix the person through rehabilitation or you lock them away forever. Beating them up, torturing them, etc etc doesn't make them "learn a lesson", it just brakes them even more.

    I've heard of burying heads in the sand, but this is just ridiculous ...


  • #94
    Seraphicblue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Seraphicblue


    Send the little maggot down.
    Maximum sentence that can be given should be given
    tho its very unlikely


  • #95
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Seraphicblue wrote: »
    Send the little maggot down.
    Maximum sentence that can be given should be given
    tho its very unlikely

    The max sentence as far as I understand is 4 years ... not exactly going to do anything.


  • #96
    RugbyFanatic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭RugbyFanatic


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Just ask the parents of Brian Murphy. Lots of rich scum kept their mouths shut on that one.


    Yes because the same percentage of murderers are upper class as working class :rolleyes:

    You can point to rare inciddents as much as you want but at the end of the day being in poverty makes one more likely to commit a crime

    thats not an opinion that is a fact. Poverty IS a factor.

    Please don't take this as a let the kid off type post its not throw the book at him but to say that poverty has nothing to do with crime is completely ridiculous.

    Why are the most dangerous neighbourhoods around the world in poverty stricken areas if poverty is not a factor?


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  • #97
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Oh FFS!

    Wake the f*ck up. Up until 20 years ago 80% of people in this country were poor and they didn't become criminals and murderers.

    This is typical middle class elitism where they get to look down on all the poor as a scummy under-class, and sure by definition, aren't they great.

    Just ask the parents of Brian Murphy. Lots of rich scum kept their mouths shut on that one.
    If anyone is actually interested, they could look at the reality of the situation.

    All these crimes spawn from the underclass in Ireland, which is by now quite large and is growing all the time. These are people who have been largely separated from the rest of the population due to spiraling factors of poverty, education, addiction, abuse, opportunity etc. Now we have the case where first generation of underclass are raising a second, and these are even more screwed up than the last lot.

    This group of people either is not recognised to exist at all (e.g. in the eyes of the media and 'middle Ireland') or is despised, hated and ostracised (e.g. here). Either way, nothing is being done to address the issue of this growing demographic. As they got more populous, their heinous crimes get more frequent, appear in the papers more and we get more hand-wringing from Daily Mail types who want them castrated/killed etc.

    It is the same people who hate and despise our urban working classes who support their ostracising from the rest of society, who refuse to consider any measure which might reduce the gap between the urban underclass and the rest of society toward the more normalised levels (which you mention) of the past.

    Instead they want fascistic measures put in place to deal with the situation (which of course wont affect them and their cosy middle-class families at all :rolleyes:) when in reality only directing our societies resources toward a more sane and equal society will reduce the pool of people from where these crimes will come from.

    Most of you will rubbish this notion and go back to your "rabble, rabble" angle, which will solve nothing.


  • #98
    nyarlothothep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    CiaranC wrote: »
    If anyone is actually interested, they could look at the reality of the situation.

    All these crimes spawn from the underclass in Ireland, which is by now quite large and is growing all the time. These are people who have been largely separated from the rest of the population due to spiraling factors of poverty, education, addiction, abuse, opportunity etc. Now we have the case where first generation of underclass are raising a second, and these are even more screwed up than the last lot.

    This group of people either is not recognised to exist at all (e.g. in the eyes of the media and 'middle Ireland') or is despised, hated and ostracised (e.g. here). Either way, nothing is being done to address the issue of this growing demographic. As they got more populous, their heinous crimes get more frequent, appear in the papers more and we get more hand-wringing from Daily Mail types who want them castrated/killed etc.

    It is the same people who hate and despise our urban working classes who support their ostracising from the rest of society, who refuse to consider any measure which might reduce the gap between the urban underclass and the rest of society toward the more normalised levels (which you mention) of the past.

    Instead they want fascistic measures put in place to deal with the situation (which of course wont affect them and their cosy middle-class families at all :rolleyes:) when in reality only directing our societies resources toward a more sane and equal society will reduce the pool of people from where these crimes will come from.

    Most of you will rubbish this notion and go back to your "rabble, rabble" angle, which will solve nothing.

    +1, a simple singular solution doesn't exist. Prevention is the best course of action and requires complex multifaceted measures.


  • #99
    TheNog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    CiaranC wrote: »
    If anyone is actually interested, they could look at the reality of the situation.

    All these crimes spawn from the underclass in Ireland, which is by now quite large and is growing all the time. These are people who have been largely separated from the rest of the population due to spiraling factors of poverty, education, addiction, abuse, opportunity etc. Now we have the case where first generation of underclass are raising a second, and these are even more screwed up than the last lot.

    This group of people either is not recognised to exist at all (e.g. in the eyes of the media and 'middle Ireland') or is despised, hated and ostracised (e.g. here). Either way, nothing is being done to address the issue of this growing demographic. As they got more populous, their heinous crimes get more frequent, appear in the papers more and we get more hand-wringing from Daily Mail types who want them castrated/killed etc.

    It is the same people who hate and despise our urban working classes who support their ostracising from the rest of society, who refuse to consider any measure which might reduce the gap between the urban underclass and the rest of society toward the more normalised levels (which you mention) of the past.

    Instead they want fascistic measures put in place to deal with the situation (which of course wont affect them and their cosy middle-class families at all :rolleyes:) when in reality only directing our societies resources toward a more sane and equal society will reduce the pool of people from where these crimes will come from.

    Most of you will rubbish this notion and go back to your "rabble, rabble" angle, which will solve nothing.
    Out of 99 posts so far this one has finally hit the nail on the head.


  • #100
    Donald-Duck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭Donald-Duck


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The max sentence as far as I understand is 4 years ... not exactly going to do anything.

    I've always wondered about this, should shooting someone not just automatically make you trialed as an adult? Most people by the age of 5 would know that you don't go around shooting people


  • #101
    Orange69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭Orange69


    CiaranC wrote: »
    It is the same people who hate and despise our urban working classes who support their ostracising from the rest of society, who refuse to consider any measure which might reduce the gap between the urban underclass and the rest of society toward the more normalised levels (which you mention) of the past.

    Instead they want fascistic measures put in place to deal with the situation (which of course wont affect them and their cosy middle-class families at all :rolleyes:) when in reality only directing our societies resources toward a more sane and equal society will reduce the pool of people from where these crimes will come from.

    Most of you will rubbish this notion and go back to your "rabble, rabble" angle, which will solve nothing.

    Yes, we should give them an allowance every week, money to care for their children, free housing, free education, free legal aid and free medical care and allow them to live in safe middle class areas. That will give them an excellent platform to turn around their lives and become productive and responsible members of society..






    Oh wait we tried that and they spit it in our collective faces every day with their outrageous behavior... Will you ever take you head out of you hole man!


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  • #102
    tech77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭tech77


    Mairt wrote: »
    Fvck that, I'm getting older. I don't want to be hidding behind my own door in a few years time just so liberal weenies can bleat and moan about civil rights for scumbags.

    +1
    (not sure about the military suggestions though :) )


  • #103
    Wacko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 153 ✭✭Wacko


    People here are talking like these kids had no choice in shooting this guy, as if the poverty made them do it, if they stole a loaf of bread you might have a point but all they stole was eggs to throw at this poor guys house and then shoot him, everyone with half a brain knows right from wrong, so stop making it sound as if the poverty made them do it.


  • #104
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    I grew up poor in a single parent house for most of my life in a deprived area, how come i didn't go out and end up killing someone?

    Do i not have that destructive gene or something? :D


  • #105
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    gurramok wrote: »
    I grew up poor in a single parent house for most of my life in a deprived area, how come i didn't go out and end up killing someone?

    Do i not have that destructive gene or something? :D

    Maybe Wicknight came and washed your scabrous feet and dried them with his hair and imbued you with his sense of middle-class virtue and smugness.

    Then you popped a cap in his ass 'cos you're scum from the 'hood!


  • #106
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Here's the dealio folks, there's a certain section of society, who will never do anything but inflict misery on others. You can call them deprived but if everyone who was deprived behaved that way this country would be in a state of anarchy. They're scumbags, plain and simple. And the reason they're scumbags is because we let them be scumbags.

    The worse thing is they draw in kids who are borderline dodgy and them turn them into scumbags too, like some giant scumbag snowball. We (as in us the people, the govt. the local authorities, the health boards, the gardai, the education system) created the conditions in which these fcukers thrive and until that turns around we'll have another generation of these fckers worse than the previous. And, frankly a shotgun in every home would make them think twice.


  • #107
    merrionsq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭merrionsq


    nyarlothothep wrote: »
    +1, a simple singular solution doesn't exist. Prevention is the best course of action and requires complex multifaceted measures.

    Locking up most of that small gang for their previous crimes would mean that a man would still be alive today. That would be worth more than multifaceted meaningless waffle.

    100s of people are still going through the persecution that man suffered. Some people will never really understand how terrible and urgent a situation it is until they find themselves in that position.


  • #108
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Botany Bay wrote: »
    I know i'll be accussed of being irrational, ridiculous and immoral. But like the murder of the two Polish guys in Drimnagh. This case seems to resonate to the point where, killing the perpetrators is the only logical course of action.


    .


    Killing a 13 yr old, ok imagine this scenario and tell me when you think the publics reaction would be..

    This kid run's from a stolen car, chased by an armed garda unit. Points his gun at the policeman in the same lane way (its a very narrow laneway connecting Shelmalier Road and Bargy Rd and over looked by only one house, so no other witnesses other than the policeman) and the policeman discharges his weapon first, killing the 13yr old child.

    I think we'd be discussing disarming the Garda, a public tribunal costing millions. Possibly a garda getting charged with manslaughter (at least) but calls from the lunny liberal left for the officer to be charged with murder.

    Personally I'd thank god the policemans training mean't had was quicker to assess the situation, and discharge his weapon resulting in the death of the kid. Then I'd feel a huge compassion for the policeman, who probably goes home safe to his own family and teenage children and I'd feel desparately for the family of the kid shot too.


  • #109
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    When the name of the kid involved, who shot this man comes out, the whole country should picket his parents house and stay outside the house until such time as his parents can offer an explanation for this, it's an absolute fu*king outrage. If anyone knows of a public protest for this, please let me know.

    When I saw this only a few months ago:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0301/1204240352646.html

    I thought, "Christ, kids killed two Polish workers in Drimnagh???", I thought this was a new low for Ireland.

    I can't understand how we are not out on the streets about this. What will it take, maybe in a few months time, an 11 year old will shoot someone, will we do something about it then??? Maybe if we acted last March, when scumbags stabbed 2 Polish men, this guy in East Wall would still be alive today???


  • #110
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    When the names of the kid involved who shot this man comes out, the whole country should picket his parents house and stay outside the house until such time as his parents can offer an explanation for this, it's an absolute fu*king outrage. If anyone knows of a public protest for this, please let me know.

    Only on the condition that everybody involved in the protest signs a binding legal agreement that they will also be held responsible for any infringement of the law ever committed by their current, or future, children.


  • #111
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    When the name of the kid involved, who shot this man comes out, the whole country should picket his parents house and stay outside the house until such time as his parents can offer an explanation for this, it's an absolute fu*king outrage. If anyone knows of a public protest for this, please let me know.

    LoL, a whole new level of public outcry.

    "The Sons of the Sons", thats a whole new one.


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  • #112
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    stovelid wrote: »
    Only on the condition that everybody involved in the protest signs a binding legal agreement that they will also be held responsible for any infringement of the law ever committed by their current, or future, children.

    Sorry, when you've a teenage kid running the streets with a fu*king handgun of all items, you owe society an explanation. When that kid pulls the trigger and a man is dead 30 minutes later on an operating table, you owe society a serious fu*king explanation!?!?!

    This kids family home should be marched on and people should stay outside his home until his parents come out and explain what the fu*k they were doing while their kid was carrying a handgun around town???

    Have you no appreciation how serious this is??? We aren't talking about a kid stealing a car here or putting a window in or turning a wheelie bin upside down. This kid was carrying a gun and has shot someone head ffs!


  • #113
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    stovelid wrote: »
    Only on the condition that everybody involved in the protest signs a binding legal agreement that they will also be held responsible for any infringement of the law ever committed by their current, or future, children.

    That's quite a good parody of a granola-munching Guardianista; you should enter it into the Fringe Festival.

    P.


  • #114
    ALFIET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭ALFIET


    This isnt an isolated case. There is a percentage of our youths today ranging from 12 yrs up who are genuinely taking pleasure in harrassing people in and outside of their own homes, ranging from verbal harrassment, physical harrassment and engage in illegal activites such as robbery, drug dealing, drug taking and possessing weapons from knifes to guns. This is not restricted to Dublin City! The suburbs etc are just as much affected.

    Adults in authority roles need to take action and thats not only the guards but the schools etc and MORE importantly the parents. This stick our heads in the sand syndrome is a bit too Irish and it has to stop. The parents HAVE to be held accountable for these actions! They cannot pretend not to notice or worse not to care.

    And the problems need to be stopped at the beginning before things escalate. There needs to be accountability and responsibility for actions. Kids need to understand that for every action there is an equal reaction.
    Punishment for these sort of actions needs to be swift and harsh. We HAVE to stop pandering to them just because they are underage.... If we dont tackle them now as a community as whole where does that leave us

    I dont have a magic wand to fix the problems nor do i have any one suggestion. It has taken years to get to us to this point and it wont be fixed over nite but SOMETHING has to be done!

    :(


  • #115
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Dragan wrote: »
    LoL, a whole new level of public outcry.

    "The Sons of the Sons", thats a whole new one.

    I don't get your point???? :confused::confused::confused:


  • #116
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I don't get your point???? :confused::confused::confused:

    I am curious as to why you feel the parents would know what their kid was doing, and why you would plan on marching a **** load of people to the home of two folks who have recently had to deal with the fact that their 13 year old sun was involved in a murder?


  • #117
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    This kids family home should be marched on and people should stay outside his home until his parents come out and explain what the fu*k they were doing while their kid was carrying a handgun around town???
    Have you no appreciation how serious this is??? !

    I think it's extremely serious.

    I'm genuinely interested in what you think picketing the kid's house will do in the long run? Apart from giving a load of rabble-rousers a nice big horn, that is.
    oceanclub wrote: »
    That's quite a good parody of a granola-munching Guardianista; you should enter it into the Fringe Festival.

    P.

    Wouldn't touch the Guardian with a barge-pole. And as for Granola... :D


  • #118
    ALFIET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭ALFIET


    Dragan wrote: »
    I am curious as to why you feel the parents would know what their kid was doing, and why you would plan on marching a **** load of people to the home of two folks who have recently had to deal with the fact that their 13 year old sun was involved in a murder?

    Seriously??? Ok so parents dont know exactly wot their kids are up to 100% of the time, granted!

    And i am not in favour of vigilantism or marching on anyones home. Everyone has a right to be safe in their own home.

    HOWEVER, parents have to hold SOME of the accountability for their childrens actions esp when those children are under 16 yrs of age!

    I find it hard to accept living in a civilised economy where parents are not made accountable to their responsibilities as parents!

    But this is more than just about the parents. It is about crime and punishment!

    ASBOs dont work! They are like badges of honour. The Punishment needs to fit the crime!

    And is it not a little strange that a 19 yr old woman wants to hang around with a 13 yr old kid..... or is that just me remembering being that age?


  • #119
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    ALFIET wrote: »
    Adults in authority roles need to take action and thats not only the guards but the schools etc and MORE importantly the parents. This stick our heads in the sand syndrome is a bit too Irish and it has to stop. The parents HAVE to be held accountable for these actions! They cannot pretend not to notice or worse not to care.
    Don't try dumping this off onto schools. Their job is to educate, not disipline. These kids are a disruptive influence in their schools and administrators need to be able to expel them; but the reality is the Dept of Education undermines them, the kids don't get expeled and the entire school and education system suffer.


  • #120
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    When the name of the kid involved, who shot this man comes out, the whole country should picket his parents house and stay outside the house until such time as his parents can offer an explanation for this, it's an absolute fu*king outrage. If anyone knows of a public protest for this, please let me know.


    You know what, your talking BS.

    You don't know the situation in Eastwall, within an hour of this shooting most people heard the name of the shooter.

    His father is a close family friend of my in-laws, and he's like any other father of any other teenager anywhere in the world. He's destroyed, he's lost and wondering whats happened and how.

    I was talking to my wife after this, and its not for the first time that we thank god that we were in the financial position to sell up and move out of Eastwall, otherwise we've no doubt that our son would have been with these lads or at least close friends.

    People have to understand how tight knit Eastwall is, its often said that "you can't piss crooked without someone knowing.

    And decent parents will only appriate this, once your teenage kids leave the house its almost impossible to know what their up to. You can only hope that you've laid the good foundations for a well balanced and behaved child, but its largely out of your hand once your son decides to take up a gun, dabble in drugs, rob car's and mug old people. Your mostly ignorant of it until you get a knock on the door from a concerned neighbour, or usually the guards telling you Johnny is down the station.

    I'm not making excuses for the countless scumbag parents out there who clearly don't give a rats arse, and I know families in Eastwall where there's generations of that kind of family. But the kids name getting thrown around down there at the moment doesn't come from that background.


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  • #121
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Dragan wrote: »
    I am curious as to why you feel the parents would know what their kid was doing, and why you would plan on marching a **** load of people to the home of two folks who have recently had to deal with the fact that their 13 year old sun was involved in a murder?

    As I said, what the fu*k were these parents doing while their kid was running the streets with a handgun??? Were they down in the pub??? Did they not notice that their kid was out of control???

    Because according to reports I'm reading this morning, the rest of the fu*king community noticed it to such a degree that they held a public meeting within the last 2 weeks with Gardai and local representatives and predicted at this meeting that someone in the community would be killed???

    So the rest of the community have noticed this, but this kids own parents didn't notice that their kid was so out of control, that someone's life was at risk???

    All I'm asking is, at what point does the whole community say, "ah here, we've had enough of this!"???


This discussion has been closed.
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