Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

Zombrex · 08-12-2008 05:10PM

Mairt wrote: »

Thanks for going through the trouble of finding that, but I can't gain access.

you just have to fill out the form as far as I know ... I actually work with that data, so I had it for a while.

Killme00 · 08-12-2008 05:11PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Actually it is the other way around. The "bleeding heart liberals" actually want to do something about it, where as the "right-wing fascists" seem content with it continuing to happening so longs someone gets blamed and/or beaten up after the fact.

I am not trying to play the blame game in any way. You were the one who blamed his parents.

I love the idea of criminals being made to do hard labour for their time in jail. It would certainly improve our roads.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 08-12-2008 05:16PM

CiaranC wrote: »

So you advocate installing a police state to deal with this? Quelle surprise.

I'm advocating playing to our strenghts.

We more or less prevented loyalist attacks on the republic for mostly 30 years of war in N.I.

We controlled a large area of operations in Lebanon, this included vehicle searches for bombs & firearms and other weapons of war. We brought a semblence of peace to Southern Lebanon.

We were instrumental in disarming the warring factions in East Timor and Liberia and it was Irish troops who brought the Liberian war criminal Taylor to trial.

Before we went to Chad it was a completely lawless country with thousend murdered by militia's weekly, we brought an end to that, indeed our contibution to the Chad mission is something this country can be proud of.

And while we're doing all this, and more. Our own cities and towns become more and more lawless!.

Fvck that, I'm getting older. I don't want to be hidding behind my own door in a few years time just so liberal weenies can bleat and moan about civil rights for scumbags.

Zombrex · 08-12-2008 05:16PM

population wrote: »

They are lethal and they just dont care what happens to them once they get you first.

I think that is the problem right there, they don't care or aren't thinking. It is complete live in the frenzy of the moment thinking. It is a detachment from the consequences of what they are doing. Like the boys who beat the goth girl to death in England, and who were laughing and joking about it in the police station after they were brought in.

And unfortunately beating them ain't going to fix that. In fact it is probably where it comes from.

GrahamThomas · 08-12-2008 05:17PM

Mairt wrote: »

The country deserves a larger police force, period..

And here's something else.. Put troops on the streets, and before the liberals tear their collective knickers off hear me out.

When Foot & Mouth Disease hit Ireland we got armed Army/Garda checkpoints set up accross the country. Attempting to bring livestock through one of these checkpoints could have resulted in the offender being shot by the army, and that was only eight years ago!.

I'd advocate locking down certain area's at random and bringing an army/garda search team through, nothing and no body leave's that area without a complete pat down.

Or amalgamate units of the guards and army to create a tough paramilitary style force, at least for an intrim period.

I've heard people suggest army patrols etc before as a solution to gangland crime, but has something like this ever been successfully used in an other country? And I mean another Western democracy, not in Colombia or somewhere.

Is there not a risk that people in working class areas will fear & resent the constant harassment from the security forces as well as the fear they already have of organised criminals?

I do agree that we need more manpower and resources for the Gardai, and more highly trained/armed units (like the new RSU) on the streets, focusing on known trouble spots.

Perhaps we need to look at the courts system as well, the Gardai can round up and charge every little toerag in the country but whats the point if the courts can't deal with them appropriately.

Jonty · 08-12-2008 05:20PM

Mairt wrote: »

Or amalgamate units of the guards and army to create a tough paramilitary style force, at least for an intrim period.

I don'y know about that Mairt, the guards and guns don't mix. Look at that attempted bank raid in Athy years ago, the guards shot more innocent bystanders with shotguns than they did bad guys, and look at the detective that shot himself in the squadcar in Abbeyleix by accident a couple of years ago.

No Sir!

If we just put a chemical substance that make people sterile in certain parts of Ireland ie, Moyross, South Hill, and East Wall area, in a 2 generations the scummers will have died out.

CiaranC · 08-12-2008 05:20PM

Mairt wrote: »

I'm advocating playing to our strenghts.

We more or less prevented loyalist attacks on the republic for mostly 30 years of war in N.I.

We controlled a large area of operations in Lebanon, this included vehicle searches for bombs & firearms and other weapons of war. We brought a semblence of peace to Southern Lebanon.

We were instrumental in disarming the warring factions in East Timor and Liberia and it was Irish troops who brought the Liberian war criminal Taylor to trial.

Before we went to Chad it was a completely lawless country with thousend murdered by militia's weekly, we brought an end to that, indeed our contibution to the Chad mission is something this country can be proud of.

And while we're doing all this, and more. Our own cities and towns become more and more lawless!.

Fvck that, I'm getting older. I don't want to be hidding behind my own door in a few years time just so liberal weenies can bleat and moan about civil rights for scumbags.

With respect, if the alternative is the likes of you, with your murder/torture fantasy posts against criminals on here, armed and controlling the state, then I think ill take my chances with the criminals. Thanks anyway.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 08-12-2008 05:25PM

CiaranC wrote: »

With respect,.

And then you say this...

CiaranC wrote: »

if the alternative is the likes of you, with your murder/torture fantasy posts on against criminals on here, armed and controlling the state, then I think ill take my chances with the criminals. .

And then this..

CiaranC wrote: »

Thanks anyway.

Is that not one of those oxymoron thingies we all discussed the other day?.

Oh, you don't that to say ''with respect'' to me, I take almost no offence at most things posted online by people I don't know.

'Tis cool.

Zombrex · 08-12-2008 05:27PM

Killme00 wrote: »

I am not trying to play the blame game in any way. You were the one who blamed his parents.

I love the idea of criminals being made to do hard labour for their time in jail. It would certainly improve our roads.

Well there is something to be said for hard labour, it is supposed to greatly reduce violence in prison (inmates are too tired to start anything).

Still doesn't help with rehabilitation though.

GrahamThomas · 08-12-2008 05:30PM

Jonty wrote: »

I don'y know about that Mairt, the guards and guns don't mix. Look at that attempted bank raid in Athy years ago, the guards shot more innocent bystanders with shotguns than they did bad guys, and look at the detective that shot himself in the squadcar in Abbeyleix by accident a couple of years ago.

Both cases you mentioned could have been prevented by better training the Gardai with the use of firearms, and probably issuing armed guards with more adequate weapons.

Jonty wrote: »

If we just put a chemical substance that make people sterile in certain parts of Ireland ie, Moyross, South Hill, and East Wall area, in a 2 generations the scummers will have died out.

Srsly?

08-12-2008 05:34PM

It's not about rehabilitation. It's not about knowing right from wrong. Even if they DONT know right from wrong they would at least know that it's illegal.

The problem here is that they know they can(and will) get away with it.

Zombrex · 08-12-2008 05:43PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

It's not about rehabilitation. It's not about knowing right from wrong. Even if they DONT know right from wrong they would at least know that it's illegal.

The problem here is that they know they can(and will) get away with it.

that doesn't seem to actually be the case, given the brazenness of the act and given that a lot of the time they don't actually get away with it.

As someone else said, they aren't thinking, or don't care.

Killme00 · 08-12-2008 05:45PM

Wicknight wrote: »

that doesn't seem to actually be the case, given the brazenness of the act and given that a lot of the time they don't actually get away with it.
As someone else said, they aren't thinking, or don't care.

They are practically getting away with it. A slap on wrist doesnt hurt for long but a kick in the bollox sure does.

Botany Bay · 08-12-2008 05:45PM

I know i'll be accussed of being irrational, ridiculous and immoral. But like the murder of the two Polish guys in Drimnagh. This case seems to resonate to the point where, killing the perpetrators is the only logical course of action.

Consider it for just a moment. It's not a case of justice, revenge, or even some kneejerk reaction. If anything it's preventative. If this 13 year old, committed this murder, then he'll likely, in the event that he's convicted. Will serve a maximum of 12-15 years. I'd say he'd be out in about 10. He'll have most of his twenties ahead of him, and unlikely will have changed in any way. He'll probably commit or will have a tendancy to commit further crimes. He'll forever be a burden on society and a threat to many innocent civilians. So what is the point in keeping him alive???

I said at the time, that the 16 year old. Who murdered those two Polish guys, should get a death sentence. I still believe that, and would extend the same courtesy to the individual who killed that man last night.

Regardless of what people may say. Two human lives are not equal. There are a great many human beings in society who contribute nothing but grief and misery to the rest. I fail to see why they should be kept alive.

who_ru · 08-12-2008 05:49PM

end the deprevation, constant poverty, improve school facilities and you will go some way to correcting acts like this. same story in limerick, scores of people condemned to live in squalor by corrupt planning officials and politicians who signed off on building mass housing estates without a single facility and then proceeded to wash their hands of the problem, leaving them to exist in a siege mentality and viewed as worthless by 'proper' society. if you ask me the likes of ray burke,(ex minister for justice) who most certainly did know right from wrong, and wasn't raised in constant poverty, is a bigger negative influence on society than a lot of people being condemned here.

what that kid did was wrong, no question about it. jamie bolger was 2 years old when he was killed in liverpool by 2 kids not older than 8 or 9. terrible acts like this will happen but the real responsibility for how society is going down the tubes in certain parts lies with those who claim to be defenders of law and order - they are anything but. they are a disgrace by any stretch of the imagination. we all know who i'm talking about - the elected politicians who increase class sizes, hammer the low paid at budget time and do their level best to create mass fear and panic amongst the elderly.

how many of you voted for them and their "principles"?

CiaranC · 08-12-2008 05:51PM

who_ru wrote: »

end the deprevation, constant poverty, improve school facilities and you will go some way to correcting acts like this. same story in limerick, scores of people condemned to live in squalor by corrupt planning officials and politicians who signed off on building mass housing estates without a single facility and then proceeded to wash their hands of the problem, leaving them to exist in a siege mentality and viewed as worthless by 'proper' society. if you ask me the likes of ray burke,(ex minister for justice) who most certainly did know right from wrong, and wasn't raised in constant poverty, is a bigger negative influence on society than a lot of people being condemned here.

Stop talking sense. If you do that, how will AHers get forced sterilisation based on class, the army on our streets and capital punishment for children into legislation?

Zombrex · 08-12-2008 06:13PM

Killme00 wrote: »

They are practically getting away with it. A slap on wrist doesnt hurt for long but a kick in the bollox sure does.

have you ever heard of a case where a violent, aggressive person stopped being violent because they were beaten enough times ... ?

It is either rehabilitation or lock them up forever/kill them. Anything else is just a time bomb waiting to strike again.

Slig · 08-12-2008 06:26PM

I blame the computer games!

Manic Moran · 08-12-2008 06:37PM

I've heard people suggest army patrols etc before as a solution to gangland crime, but has something like this ever been successfully used in an other country?

The Governor of Illinois put out a press conference a couple of months ago saying that he wanted to put the National Guard out and about in Chicago given the amount of lawlessness going on over there. Don't think it's actually happened though. It would be an interesting experiment, one has to say.

Military forces are used in the counter-drug role in the US, but they mainly conduct raids and surveillance, not street-patrolling.

NTM

donaghs · 08-12-2008 06:42PM

CiaranC wrote: »

With respect, if the alternative is the likes of you, with your murder/torture fantasy posts against criminals on here, armed and controlling the state, then I think ill take my chances with the criminals. Thanks anyway.

That particular gang of kids in East Wall, their life is just a crime spree. Locking them up would end it. Are you just trying to wind up people who sympathise with the victim?

It laughable to bang on about human rights. The victim, long before he was shot, had already lost his human rights - to a gang of teenagers.

120_Minutes · 08-12-2008 06:43PM

i'm liberal, except when it comes to scumbags.

castration FTW

he took someones life, his right to give life should be taken from him.

Poccington · 08-12-2008 06:53PM

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm a "bleeding heart liberal", and I would say that East Wall is a poor area and he probably never was taught right from wrong. I imagine the kid who shot this man is a severely damaged individual, everything from terrible parenting to a bad diet.

I wouldn't say he is a "victim" of his environment though, simply a product of it.

People get too wrapped up in the blame game in these situations. Blaming someone only works if the person cares what they have done and cares that you disapprove. I doubt this child cares. Ultimately blaming him is pointless. It might make you feel better but it doesn't actually do anything. There is no way to force him to feel guilty.

You either stick him in prison forever where he can't harm others, or you try and rehabilitate him.

Yeah, you're right. Society put that gun in his hand, society loaded the magazine, society forced him to lure that man out of his house and then society made him kill that man in cold blood. The poor little soul, when you really look at it he's the victim in all this. All he needs is some loving and soon enough he'll be a nice enough lad.

Of course, that still won't bring that man back to his family. So on second thoughts, lock the little prick up for life without the right to any visitors... Then he might get a feel of what it's like to have people you love snatched away from you. I'm sick of all this "Oh society let him down, if only he was loved this would never have happened" bollocks. The kid is scum, society didn't make him that way, the decisions he made throughout his life shaped him as a person. **** showing compassion because I can guarantee when he shot that man there wasn't an ounce of compassion in that kids body. Lock him up for life.

Overheal · 08-12-2008 07:43PM

Only in America

I'm sorry for the guy, but you all fúcking earned this one with your arrogance.

dresden8 · 08-12-2008 08:14PM

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm a "bleeding heart liberal", and I would say that East Wall is a poor area and he probably never was taught right from wrong. I imagine the kid who shot this man is a severely damaged individual, everything from terrible parenting to a bad diet.

I wouldn't say he is a "victim" of his environment though, simply a product of it.

People get too wrapped up in the blame game in these situations. Blaming someone only works if the person cares what they have done and cares that you disapprove. I doubt this child cares. Ultimately blaming him is pointless. It might make you feel better but it doesn't actually do anything. There is no way to force him to feel guilty.

You either stick him in prison forever where he can't harm others, or you try and rehabilitate him.

Oh FFS!

Wake the f*ck up. Up until 20 years ago 80% of people in this country were poor and they didn't become criminals and murderers.

This is typical middle class elitism where they get to look down on all the poor as a scummy under-class, and sure by definition, aren't they great.

Just ask the parents of Brian Murphy. Lots of rich scum kept their mouths shut on that one.

An Fear Aniar · 08-12-2008 11:48PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Oh FFS!

Wake the f*ck up. Up until 20 years ago 80% of people in this country were poor and they didn't become criminals and murderers.

Exactly. Poverty is not the cause of crime. It is not an excuse.

.

peasant · 08-12-2008 11:54PM

Overheal wrote: »

Only in America

I'm sorry for the guy, but you all fúcking earned this one with your arrogance.

Feel better now?

Overheal · 09-12-2008 12:15AM

Indubitably.

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 12:53AM

Poccington wrote: »

Of course, that still won't bring that man back to his family. So on second thoughts, lock the little prick up for life without the right to any visitors...

If you want to lock him up forever that is certainly a solution, but since that isn't going to happen (he will be locked up till he 18), perhaps you need to come back down to Earth a bit and have a proper think about actual solutions to problems like this

Or maybe we should just throw rocks at him. I'm sure that will stop him being violent.

Poccington wrote: »

Then he might get a feel of what it's like to have people you love snatched away from you.

Which will probably turn him even more violent and angry.

Are you going to explain to the next person he hurts that you would rather make him suffer now than actually try and stop him doing something like this again?

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 12:59AM

dresden8 wrote: »

Wake the f*ck up. Up until 20 years ago 80% of people in this country were poor and they didn't become criminals and murderers.

Well your statistics are way off (80%?), and if you actually bother to look at the crime statistics crime has been dropping since the 80s, particular crimes associated with poverty, such as muggings and burglary.

dresden8 wrote: »

This is typical middle class elitism where they get to look down on all the poor as a scummy under-class, and sure by definition, aren't they great.

Yes because crime rates are traditionally much higher in middle class areas ... oh wait ... :rolleyes:

Seriously, has reality taken a holiday for the winter? You guys appear to have no clue what is actually going on. Stop reading the Sun ffs :rolleyes:

omgiluvxmas · 09-12-2008 01:00AM

R.I.P

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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