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Could you go out with a religeous person?

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    #182
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    To the OP. I think it would be very difficult to go out with anyone who had either disdain or little interest in something I was passionate about. My Christianity is the most important thing in my life, so rather than it even being a preference, it would be very unwise to settle down with someone who was a polar opposite. I'd be looking ahead to children etc. I am passionate about music also, and the same would apply. Before I met my wife, my longest relationship was 1 month. The reason usually being their lack of interest in either music or things of a spiritual nature. For me it just couldn't work.


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    #183
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Gambler wrote: »
    There is a god and Jesus was his son?

    I was being a smart-ass pedant. You probably meant principle, but it just about works with principal ;)


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    #184
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    Originally Posted by Goduznt Xzst
    Most Christians would feel a person who claims to be a Christian but who also has premeditated premarital sex is living a life of sin.
    Not sure where your evidence for that is.
    Would you like to produce it?

    To get back to\expand on the original point when it comes to pre marital sex here is the 2006 census break down of christians that they track:

    Roman Catholic 3,681,446
    CoI (Incl. Protestant) 125,585
    Presbyterian 23,546
    Methodist 12,160
    Total: 3,842,737

    The total population of Ireland is 4,239,848 so you can safely say that the majority of christians in Ireland fall into one of those categories.

    Here's what I could find on their positions on Pre Marital Sex:

    Roman Catholic:
    Can't find the official wording but Sex before marriage is definitely not allowed (Will keep searching for the exact text from the vatican but that site is nasty to find stuff on)
    Presbyterian:
    Not sure if this is the "official" word of the church but I've found this quote on a few presbyterian sites: "He has made it sin to engage in sexual activities outside the marriage bond."
    Methodists:
    "Although all persons are sexual beings whether or not they are married, sexual relations are only clearly affirmed in the marriage bond."

    I think I can now safely say that the majority of christians in Ireland believe that pre marital sex is a sin?

    Edit: Forgot to look up COI\Protestant\Anglican and in fairness to them I did find this quote:
    "Asked if the Anglican Church considered pre-marital sex as a sin, Dr Neill said: "I think that making hard and fast statements about listing things as sins would be less common nowadays. There would be those who speak out clearly saying it is a sin, but I think that we would accept that the majority of those coming for marriage are probably already living together." However, Dr Neill said he would regard promiscuity as a sin "because it dehumanises people" and he felt the nature of relationships was "very important"."

    What I take from that is that he isn't willing to say either way himself. He seems to basically be saying that it's not right but we'll allow it..


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    #185
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    pH wrote: »
    I was being a smart-ass pedant. You probably meant principle, but it just about works with principal ;)

    Hehe fair enough, what if I were to say:
    Yes, but I would dare say that there are certain beliefs that are shared across the majority of christians..


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    #186
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,972 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Gambler wrote: »
    Hey, I never thought you would, my point is that from what I know of there are no christian churches that actually say pre-marital sex is not a sin, if there were I'm sure there would have been a load of press from all the other faiths saying all sorts of things :P
    Yes but avoid the false dichotomy. Just because they don't teach pre-marital sex is not not a sin, doesn't mean it's top of their teaching.

    The reality is I would suspect a spectrumof opinions amongst church goers.
    I'm sorry but I take huge issue with this. Of course there are more direct consequences that you can see yourself in what you do and don't do but you can't honestly claim there are no consequences to lending your name to a cause.
    A name is only a way of referencing. Action is more meaningful.
    Signing a petition saying that we should rename Ireland "Little England" would be no different (to me) than joining a religion or political party that has that as one of it's aims.
    Indeed. And signing a petition is doing an action. It's not just calling yourself
    something.

    (By the way, I'm not necessarily saying this to Tim Robbins, I mean this in a general way to anyone)
    Oh don't worry. I'm as atheist as they come.


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    #187
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    Yes but avoid the false dichotomy. Just because they don't teach pre-marital sex is not not a sin, doesn't mean it's top of their teaching.
    I never said it was top of their teachings, I was saying that if you call yourself roman catholic it's a statement of beliefs that include no sex before marriage..
    Indeed. And signing a petition is doing an action. It's not just calling yourself something.
    Surely you can accept that calling yourself something lends that "thing" "power".

    If you call yourself a Christian are you not lending your name to that organisations beliefs?


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    #188
    garrincha62
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭garrincha62


    Gambler wrote: »
    To get back to\expand on the original point when it comes to pre marital sex here is the 2006 census break down of christians that they track:

    Roman Catholic 3,681,446
    CoI (Incl. Protestant) 125,585
    Presbyterian 23,546
    Methodist 12,160
    Total: 3,842,737

    The total population of Ireland is 4,239,848 so you can safely say that the majority of christians in Ireland fall into one of those categories.

    One disappointing thing about the 2006 Census, and subsequent publication which gave analysis regarding religion was that the second largest grouping that answered the "Religion" question ticked the "No religion or belief" box. This was not reflected in the commentary about religion, which I thought was a shame.


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    #189
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    Well, the no religion section was 186,318 people, hardly a huge percentage of the population, here's the details for anyone interested:

    Roman Catholic 3,681,446
    Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant) 125,585
    Presbyterian 23,546
    Methodist 12,160
    Jewish 1,930
    Other stated religions 138,541
    No religion 186,318
    Not stated 70,322

    Total 4,239,848

    Personally I think it's a good thing that the no religion number is increasing but it's not increasing that more rapidly than any other and a lot of that increas can be seen as a movement from the "not stated" column to the "no religion" if you compare the numbers to 2002:

    2002 Numbers:
    Roman Catholic 3,462,606
    Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant) 115,611
    Presbyterian 20,582
    Methodist 10,033
    Jewish 1,790
    Other stated religions 89,223
    No religion 138,264
    Not stated 79,094

    Total 3,917,203


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    #190
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Gambler wrote: »
    Personally I think it's a good thing that the no religion number is increasing but it's not increasing that more rapidly than any other and a lot of that increas can be seen as a movement from the "not stated" column to the "no religion" if you compare the numbers to 2002:

    Using your figures the % of the population specifying "no religion" has increased from 3.53% to 4.53% (an increase in real terms of 35%) whereas the % of Catholics has dropped from 88.4% to 86.8% (an increase in real terms of about 6%). So it's not true to say that "it's not increasing that more rapidly than any other".

    As to the other point, the drop in "not stated" doesn't start to cover the difference, and it's pure speculation on your part that even if it did that it's atheists deciding 4 years later to now check the "no religion" box.

    I myself think the numbers would be even higher if it wasn't for those who decided atheism was a religion and refused to tick the "no religion" box!
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055224691
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055127991


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    #191
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    pH wrote: »
    Using your figures the % of the population specifying "no religion" has increased from 3.53% to 4.53% (an increase in real terms of 35%) whereas the % of Catholics has dropped from 88.4% to 86.8% (an increase in real terms of about 6%). So it's not true to say that "it's not increasing that more rapidly than any other".
    Ahh but the "Other stated Religion" has increased by about 50,000 people, if I'm right (and I may not be, working it out roughly in my head) that's about the same percentage increase. Don't get me wrong, I'm enouraged by the numbers!
    pH wrote: »
    As to the other point, the drop in "not stated" doesn't start to cover the difference, and it's pure speculation on your part that even if it did that it's atheists deciding 4 years later to now check the "no religion" box.

    I myself think the numbers would be even higher if it wasn't for those who decided atheism was a religion and refused to tick the "no religion" box!
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055224691
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055127991
    They decided atheism is a religion? Now that's just silly!


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    #192
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Gambler wrote: »
    Ahh but the "Other stated Religion" has increased by about 50,000 people, if I'm right (and I may not be, working it out roughly in my head) that's about the same percentage increase. Don't get me wrong, I'm enouraged by the numbers!

    They decided atheism is a religion? Now that's just silly!

    The census figures are a bit of a joke. I'm classed as being "other religion" because the question is slanted towards the so-called 4 main churches. I am in a Christian Church whose membership (and Sunday attendance) is more than double the combined membership of Presbyterians, Methodists and Church of Ireland in our town. I know of similar churches in the same situation all over the country.

    The census figures are indeed of some use in tracking the numbers of the so-called "4 main churches" (in reality the one main church and 3 minority groups) but give no realistic picture of other Christians, agnostics or atheists.


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    #193
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    PDN wrote: »
    The census figures are a bit of a joke. I'm classed as being "other religion" because the question is slanted towards the so-called 4 main churches. I am in a Christian Church whose membership (and Sunday attendance) is more than double the combined membership of Presbyterians, Methodists and Church of Ireland in our town. I know of similar churches in the same situation all over the country.

    The census figures are indeed of some use in tracking the numbers of the so-called "4 main churches" (in reality the one main church and 3 minority groups) but give no realistic picture of other Christians, agnostics or atheists.

    Which church are you a member of, PDN?


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    #194
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    Which church are you a member of, PDN?

    A Pentecostal/Evangelical Church.

    I have a good reason for retaining some anonymity (of which Dades,as the mod of this forum, is aware) but a number of the regular posters know who I am and have correctly identified my church from clues that I've scattered around.


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    #195
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Not sure where your evidence for that is.
    Would you like to produce it?

    You accept that the vast majority of Christians view premarital sex as a sin, yes? You have not argued with this, rather you are arguing that most don't view it as a serious sin. Then what is your argument here? Proof? Why do I need to provide it if you already accept what I said as true.
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Christianity is very much a subjective paradigm. So many denominations, interpretations and translations. All you are doing is treating something as if it's immune from these characteristics and then treating this lady like a hypocrite by putting a negative spin on it.

    This was my point. Christianity is very subjective if you do not tie yourself to a strict creed. Which lends itself to a very "have your cake and eat it" religion. Whereby you obey the aspects you like and choose not to obey the aspects you don't. You keep harping on about it being negative but this is the religion she is practicing. She is cherry picking the parts of the bible that make her feel most comfortable and cause as little disruption to her life and then calling herself a Christian by following the bits and pieces she's patched together.

    Admittedly, yes, this is true for the majority of Christians which is why it is so hypocritical. You could speak to the individuals of a congregation of any Christian sect and each would have their own opinions on sins that God doesn't care about and ones he definitely does. Each will have interpreted the bible in their own way, one which sits most comfortably with their own view of morality.


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    #196
    garrincha62
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭garrincha62


    Gambler wrote: »
    Well, the no religion section was 186,318 people, hardly a huge percentage of the population....


    Gambler, my point being that the second largest portion of the population that responded to the question was not mentioned. While the number was not huge in comparison to RC, it was still larger than any other single religion. The increase of people ticking atheist/no religion or belief has increased. And in light of declining mass attendance, more questioning and open society etc, I was surprised and disappointed that this was not mentioned.

    In response to PDN, I don't think that the Census is biased or geared towards any one particular religion as such. Remember, the people that form the census questions are civil servants and statisticians. They use previous censuses as guidelines. The CSO also advertise for submissions from the public in regard to changing questions, adding questions, suggestions etc. In comparison to other Censuses, the Irish census is quite wide ranging.

    In relation to the religion groupings, it is simply a case of there not being enough space to put every church in. If you really want to find out how many members of a sect/religion there is you could contact the CSO and request they do the research for you (which they will do for a fee).


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    #197
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,972 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    A Pentecostal/Evangelical Church.

    I have a good reason for retaining some anonymity (of which Dades,as the mod of this forum, is aware) but a number of the regular posters know who I am and have correctly identified my church from clues that I've scattered around.

    I suppose it's near that Football team you support...

    Anyway, just wondering where are most of your flock coming from?
    x - Catholic, x - Presbyterian, x - CoI, immigrants?


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    #198
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,972 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Gambler wrote: »
    Surely you can accept that calling yourself something lends that "thing" "power".
    Yeah, fair point.
    All I am saying is many people who call themselves Christians have sex before marriage. So can you make the point that they're hypocrites?
    Well I just don't think that's clear cut. But of course, if they are annoying you about their Christianity and fail to see the lack of an objective and precise universally agreed definition for Christianity, of course you can call them a hypocrite :-)


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    #199
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I suppose it's near that Football team you support...

    Anyway, just wondering where are most of your flock coming from?
    x - Catholic, x - Presbyterian, x - CoI, immigrants?

    At least 50% of our congregation would be immigrants. A majority of our members would be former Catholics. For many of them their Catholicism was purely a cultural thing & they were effectively secular/nonreligious. We have about 50 former Muslims (most of them are immigrants).
    Most of our youth were atheist or agnostic before they accepted Christ.


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    #200
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    PDN wrote: »
    At least 50% of our congregation would be immigrants. A majority of our members would be former Catholics. For many of them their Catholicism was purely a cultural thing & they were effectively secular/nonreligious. We have about 50 former Muslims (most of them are immigrants).
    Most of our youth were atheist or agnostic before they accepted Christ.

    How appalling. Shame on you sir. I take solace in the fact that you are a dying breed.


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    #201
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Zillah wrote: »
    How appalling. Shame on you sir. I take solace in the fact that you are a dying breed.

    Not quite sure what you could possibly find shameful or appalling. :confused:

    As for being a dying breed - in your dreams. We are growing rapidly both worldwide and in Ireland. Like a number of other similar churches we're having to run multiple services on Sundays because we can't cram any more people into our building.


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    #202
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Zillah - what exactly is appalling? Converting heathens?

    Surly the fact that churches do this is not news to you!


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    #203
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Of course it's not news to me, but the very idea of a young atheist or agnostic getting duped into worship by these people makes my blood boil.
    As for being a dying breed - in your dreams.

    What about preachers/priests, getting plenty of them too?


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    #204
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Zillah wrote: »
    What about preachers/priests, getting plenty of them too?

    I've spoken to a few school chaplains, and I always got the impression that these young men and women would enter priesthood if, you know, Celibacy was lifted. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.


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    #205
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Zillah wrote: »
    What about preachers/priests, getting plenty of them too?

    Lots of them. We have a team of 6 pastors in our church and we're adding 2 more next month. All of them are married (including the 2 female pastors) so I doubt if celibacy is a factor.

    We're also training up 30 other members in a Pastoral Training Programme. So I doubt if there will be a shortage of preachers anytime soon.


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    #206
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    What breed of Christianity are you again PDN? Clearly far more hip than Catholicism anyway.


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    #207
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Whoops wrong thread.


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    #208
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Zillah wrote: »
    What breed of Christianity are you again PDN? Clearly far more hip than Catholicism anyway.

    Bible bashing Pentecostal. ;)


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    #209
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    PDN wrote: »
    A Pentecostal/Evangelical Church.

    I have a good reason for retaining some anonymity (of which Dades,as the mod of this forum, is aware) but a number of the regular posters know who I am and have correctly identified my church from clues that I've scattered around.

    To find out PDN's identity you will have to decipher a series of clues each more fiendishly difficult than the last.


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    #210
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Oh cool. Do you have Holy Spirit seizure parties? (I don't know what the official term is. Where everyone gets together and the Holy Spirit makes them fall over and speak in tongues and stuff)


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    #211
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    "The fact that someone is religeous suggests something about their personality/mindset to me,"

    If I have one goal in life, it's to put an end to this sort of nonsense. There is absolutely no link between a nebulous concept like personality and belief in the divine. When are people going to stop being atheists just to feel intelligent and superior? :mad:


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