Could you go out with a religeous person?

Zillah

Tim Robbins wrote: »

How can there be any consistency in something that there isn't even an agreed objective definition?

Not sure what you're getting at.

Maybe she accepts the Bible as the word of man and it contains errors.

In which case I have to ask what reasonable criteria she could possibly be using when deciding what to keep and what to kick?

Maybe she accepts it as the word of God, but an allegorical word not a literal word.

What could possibly be allegorical about Jesus saying "No one comes before the Father except through Me"? The Bible goes on and on in very literal terms about how believing in and obeying God is the only way to enter heaven.

I'd prefer someone with a few contradictions than someone who is was selfish or had no sense of humour myself.

Er, ok. Any of those criteria are enough to sink the deal.

Could you be friends with someone who had contradictions in their viewpoints?

Yes, probably. Not very good friends I'd imagine.

seanybiker

Im not holy at all but I respect everyones beliefs. Who am I to say dont believe or do believe. i like to be treat the same. My lack goes to mass but I certainly wouldnt leave because of it. She knows not to go about it to me. Why would she want to go on about mass for anyways. She isnt one of those omg your going to hell for not beleiving, she is open minded and respects my desicion.

Tim Robbins

Zillah wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at.

Christians can't even agree on what Christianity means. I would never expect consistency from something that is imprecise in the first place.

In which case I have to ask what reasonable criteria she could possibly be using when deciding what to keep and what to kick?

What could possibly be allegorical about Jesus saying "No one comes before the Father except through Me"? The Bible goes on and on in very literal terms about how believing in and obeying God is the only way to enter heaven.

As someone said here once asking a Christian to explain their Christian views using logic is like asking asking an atheist to explain their views by only using parables from the bible!

Of course you can nit pick and point out logical fallacies in Christianity, but is it fair to write someone off just because they enjoy something that contains logical fallacies? I don't think it is. I think it's very dismissive of people.

I've a friend whose a devout Muslim. He's bright guy. In fact, another gentleman from Bosnia I worked with is one the brightest people I have ever worked with and is also a devout Muslim. Far brighter than I could ever be. I think it's bit facile writing people off. There may be something deeper going on that is difficult to put into terms we can all agree on.

So, what I am suggesting is sometimes when you put things into context, if there's no harm being done by the action or if the some positive done by the action, than that can be more important the logic validity of the action.

Zillah

Somewhat ironically, I never said I was making a rational decision. I am speaking simply in terms of how I suspect I will feel: I have so little respect for religion, and thusfar have had so little respect for those who proclaim to be believers, that I honestly believe it is out of my hands: I'd never love a believer because I could not respect them or value their opinion.

I am not saying that on principle I will not consider a religious partner, if I'm in love I'm in love and be damned to who they are or what they believe. I just really doubt it could happen.

Tar.Aldarion

No, I have not and could not.

deleriumtremens

I'm a complete nihilistic atheist without any belief in anything supernatural so I dont think I'd last too long around somebody with devout religious beliefs!! I dont think I would be able to stop myself from feeling like shoving some evolution books or general rational thoughts down her throat!
But as for the more common going-to-mass-once-a-week type believer, it wouldnt borrow me in the slightest!!

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

Do you believe in heaven? Do you believe someone only goes there through God and Christ? If so, then you're either utterly heartless and don't care that your boyfriend will spend an eternity separated from God, or you just don't really think about the ramifications of your beliefs. Both of which suck.

The very fact that you can be so casual about it really says something: "Meh, it's totally up to my boyfriend's whim if he'll spend a hundred billion years in darkness eternally separated from me and God".

Then if you answered no to the above questions and yet consider the Bible to be relevant I'm yet again dumbfounded at how illconsidered your position is.

At the heart of a worthwhile relationship is respect, and I'm sorry but I can't respect someone who can read the Bible and think "Hmm, that was something other than a big pile of crap."

You're calling me heartless and yet you have poseted a very heartless message there that really upset me. It was a very ill thought out message from you. You said If so, then you're either utterly heartless and don't care that your boyfriend will spend an eternity separated from God, or you just don't really think about the ramifications of your beliefs. Both of which suck.

The fact that you jumped to those two conclusions very quickly says more about you than it does about me. Of course I care very much about my boyfriend, and of course as a christian I think he will go to hell if he doesnt believe.

But there is a third conclusion which i am surprised you didnt think of.

I dont want to force religion on him, I want him to make his own journey to God.

If you read my post correctly, I said my boyfriend is an agnostic. This means that he doesnt not believe or believe, he is undecided about the issue.

I actually cant believe that you decided to attack me, without asking me to clarify the issue. not a very nice attitude from you? I dislike people who shove religion down other people's throats. This is not the way to make people listen. Believe me, back when I didn't believe in God, I definitely didnt listen to people who said 'YOU'LL BURN FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!'I would have run a mile screaming 'what a lunatic!'

Tar.Aldarion

Ah Zillah, that Christian rascal. What will he get up to next!

midlandsmissus

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Maybe she thinks that if someone is a good person, regardless of their religious creed, then they will go to "Heaven".

No, LZ5by5,

I would actually want him to discover God , on his own terms, the way I did. I certainly wouldnt want to force the issue on him.

midlandsmissus

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How has your agnostic boyfriend responded to your celibacy?

Goduznt,

Such a personal question. I presume you will also be telling me about your own sex life!!.

Well, giving that I only became a Christian in the last year, and I am 25, I'm not a virgin.

What are your views on that then? I'm sure they'll be sharp and hard to read, but I'll put myself through it!

As far as im aware this is not an unforgivable sin.

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

Dave!'s summary is more accurate. I'm not insisting upon what a Christian must believe to qualify as such, I'm just pointing out that there has to be an inconsistency in her position somewhere. If she believes he won't go to heaven but does nothing then she clearly doesn't care about him much (or doesn't really believe it). If she believes he'll go to heaven while not accepting Jesus Christ then she is abitrarily dismissing the entire thesis of the New Testament while still accepting it as the word of God, which is an untenable position.

I'm pointing this out as an example of why I don't think I could ever have a serious relationship with a believer. Respect is paramount and I can't respect a mind that can accept such contradictions.

Zillah, I really cant believe you saw only those two options. It never crossed your mind for a minute that I didnt want to shove religion down his neck, that I wanted him to make his own journey at his own time?

Maybe you should research your argument properly before you berate people next time.

Asiaprod

Danimalito wrote: »

no idea about hindus/buddists

Spend all day sitting motionless on cushions breathing lightly and day dreaming of a different reality. Also prone to contemplating their navel. Likes: rice, candles, incense, and wind chimes. Dislikes: flat stomachs and leg cramps. Will date anything that can accept their idiosyncrasies.

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

...that I wanted him to make his own journey at his own time?

What if at the end that journey your beliefs weren't the same?

Dades

midlandsmissus wrote: »

If you read my post correctly, I said my boyfriend is an agnostic. This means that he doesnt not believe or believe, he is undecided about the issue.

Actually it means he believes the nature of god is unknowable, which means he's very unlikely to suddenly start believing in your one.

Also I think you're mistaking Zillah's enthusiasm for an 'attack'. Anyone in the A&A forum must be able to hold their own!

MrDaithi

I have been out with a couple girls who did believe in God. One of them even went to church, not sure if she went to confess her sins

As long as it wasn't affecting our relationship it's not a problem. We didn't stay together very long so I guess that why's it didn't affect our relationship but for a long term relationship I don't think it would work.

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

You're calling me heartless and yet you have poseted a very heartless message there that really upset me. It was a very ill thought out message from you. You said If so, then you're either utterly heartless and don't care that your boyfriend will spend an eternity separated from God, or you just don't really think about the ramifications of your beliefs. Both of which suck.

The fact that you jumped to those two conclusions very quickly says more about you than it does about me. Of course I care very much about my boyfriend, and of course as a christian I think he will go to hell if he doesnt believe.

But there is a third conclusion which i am surprised you didnt think of.

I dont want to force religion on him, I want him to make his own journey to God.

If you read my post correctly, I said my boyfriend is an agnostic. This means that he doesnt not believe or believe, he is undecided about the issue.

I actually cant believe that you decided to attack me, without asking me to clarify the issue. not a very nice attitude from you? I dislike people who shove religion down other people's throats. This is not the way to make people listen. Believe me, back when I didn't believe in God, I definitely didnt listen to people who said 'YOU'LL BURN FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!'I would have run a mile screaming 'what a lunatic!'

Ok, first of all I'm an atheist, I'm just exploring the ramifications of your beliefs. Second of all, the very first thing I did do was ask you to clarify what your position was. Thirdly, it doesn't matter, everything I said was phrased in the vein of "If she believes this then it means this" etc.

Finally, I still don't think you've really thought about your position. Ok, you don't want to shove you beliefs down his throat, that's cool. But you believe he might go to Hell! That's the worst thing possible! If he had cancer and he didn't want to get it treated would you go "Well it's up to him" or would you demand and insist and do everything in your power to get him to get cured?

If I really and truly believed that people who weren't Christians were going to Hell I would feel morally obliged to try my absolute hardest to save as many people as possible. It would be supremely selfish and evil to do anything else. I would no more condone a partner being agnostic than I would condone their pouring acid on their face and putting nails through their bones.

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

Finally, I still don't think you've really thought about your position. Ok, you don't want to shove you beliefs down his throat, that's cool. But you believe he might go to Hell! That's the worst thing possible! If he had cancer and he didn't want to get it treated would you go "Well it's up to him" or would you demand and insist and do everything in your power to get him to get cured?

Well lets think about this. If a person had cancer that was treatable, they will get it treated. The only instance where someone would not take treatment is where it is terminal so they decide to spend their little time left at home with their family rather than in a hospital.

Zillah wrote: »

If I really and truly believed that people who weren't Christians were going to Hell I would feel morally obliged to try my absolute hardest to save as many people as possible. It would be supremely selfish and evil to do anything else. I would no more condone a partner being agnostic than I would condone their pouring acid on their face and putting nails through their bones.

There's no point though is there? What would you say to someone constantly preaching to you about hell? You'd tell them to stop wasting their time. You are a man of rigid beliefs, you know that preaching to you is entirely futile. In other words, selfish and evil doesn't come into it; you'd laugh in their faces am I right?

Respect for your fellow man is an important part of the New Testament teachings, so all you can do is hope that people "come to their" senses eventually.

Zillah

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Well lets think about this. If a person had cancer that was treatable, they will get it treated. The only instance where someone would not take treatment is where it is terminal so they decide to spend their little time left at home with their family rather than in a hospital.

Completely irrelevant. Its my hypothetical, I dictate the terms. His cancer can be cured but he doesn't like doctors and refuses to get treated.

If anyone points out that he doesn't actually hate doctors they're going on my ignore list and will be cursed by the Gods of hypothetical scenarios.

There's no point though is there? What would you say to someone constantly preaching to you about hell? You'd tell them to stop wasting their time. You are a man of rigid beliefs, you know that preaching to you is entirely futile. In other words, selfish and evil doesn't come into it; you'd laugh in their faces am I right?

Respect for your fellow man is an important part of the New Testament teachings, so all you can do is hope that people "come to their" senses eventually.

People get converted all the time. The original poster herself used to not believe in God! I don't know him, I don't know what might work. But if she really and truly believes he could go to Hell then shouldn't she be trying everything and anything to convert him? Sure, not shoving religion down people's throats is a great notion, but that is nothing compared to the prospect of billions of years of torture.

Frankly I suspect the only reason she can make that compromise is because she doesn't really think it could happen.

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

People get converted all the time. The original poster herself used to not believe in God! I don't know him, I don't know what might work. But if she really and truly believes he could go to Hell then shouldn't she be trying everything and anything to convert him? Sure, not shoving religion down people's throats is a great notion, but that is nothing compared to the prospect of billions of years of torture.

Frankly I suspect the only reason she can make that compromise is because she doesn't really think it could happen.

If my memory serves me correctly it wasn't an actual person that had the definitive say in her conversion; my point is if you are a hard line atheist all the preaching in the world is futile and only direct experiences will sway you. Just look at what Sinead Desmond said in The Mirror this morning; lost interest in religion but was influenced back to it by her near death experience.

Not every person is deluded into thinking that their words can influence someone, especially when it comes to religion. She knows there is no chance of persuading her boyfriend so why would she put a huge strain on her relationship by refusing to drop the subject?

Zillah

He's agnostic

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

He's agnostic

So am I, and there's nothing man could say that could convince me to convert to a religion or to become a full fledged atheist.

jackdaw

I'm currently in a relationship with a girl who I guess is passively religious ..
she never goes to Mass ... she never tries to change my views ...

but ...

I have worries if it ever comes to raising kids ... the problem is her family (well her mother really ) is quite religious ...

I don't want her poisoning my kids with that nonsense so it could be a problem ... on the other hand my parents weren't religious at all .. but my grandparents were very religious .. and it never affected me .. even though
my grandad would take me to mass and tell me about the saints...

hopefully i can have more of an effect on my kids then the grandparents ...


i still worry about it though...

Zillah

LZ5by5 wrote: »

So am I, and there's nothing man could say that could convince me to convert to a religion or to become a full fledged atheist.

You can't really know that. Regardless, are you honestly trying to claim that no one has ever convinced anyone to follow their religion?

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

You can't really know that. Regardless, are you honestly trying to claim that no one has ever convinced anyone to follow their religion?

In my lifetime, I'm pretty confident that I won't be swayed either way.

In regards to your question, I never said that every person is impervious to persuasion by their fellow man. I was just pointing out to you that the reason midlandsmissus doesn't try to convert her boyfriend is because she recognises that it's impossible; and instead of putting a strain on her relationship, she concentrates on living to the fullest with her bloke. Maybe she is naive to hope that her boyfriend will one day have an epiphany in regards to Christianity or maybe, just maybe, she believes that if her BF is a good person, he'll reach heaven.

Zillah

She didn't say she thought it was impossible, she said she didn't want to force her religion on him.

maybe, just maybe, she believes that if her BF is a good person, he'll reach heaven.

She specifically said that she thinks he'll go to Hell is he doesn't become a Christian.

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

She didn't say she thought it was impossible, she said she didn't want to force her religion on him.

And why does she not want to force it on him? Surely she'd give it a go if she knew there was a chance of persuading him, as you said she'd want to save him from hell. The answer is that she doesn't force it on him is because she knows that there's no room for persuasion; therefore impossible.

Zillah wrote: »

She specifically said that she thinks he'll go to Hell is he doesn't become a Christian.

I'm not going to sift through this thread looking for that actual quote, I guess I'll have to take your word for it. Actually **** it;

Source?

Zillah

LZ5by5 wrote: »

And why does she not want to force it on him? Surely she'd give it a go if she knew there was a chance of persuading him, as you said she'd want to save him from hell. The answer is that she doesn't force it on him is because she knows that there's no room for persuasion; therefore impossible.

You just made that up without any evidence. All we know is that her stated reason is that she doesn't want to force it on him. Maybe she's soaked up too much faux PC notions, maybe she doesn't really believe in God deep down...we don't know. Don't invent an answer and present it to me as if it defeats my argument.

Regardless, even if she suspects it's impossible, is there not still a moral obligation to try? If you saw your lover about to be crushed by a falling piano, would you not try to save them even if it seemed like you wouldn't be fast enough?

I'm not going to sift through this thread looking for that actual quote, I guess I'll have to take your word for it. Actually **** it;

Source?

Post 98, one page back from this one:

midlandsmissus wrote:

of course as a christian I think he will go to hell if he doesnt believe.

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

You just made that up without any evidence. All we know is that her stated reason is that she doesn't want to force it on him. Maybe she's soaked up too much faux PC notions, maybe she doesn't really believe in God deep down...we don't know. Don't invent an answer and present it to me as if it defeats my argument.

Regardless, even if she suspects it's impossible, is there not still a moral obligation to try? If you saw your lover about to be crushed by a falling piano, would you not try to save them even if it seemed like you wouldn't be fast enough?

This is amazing, you accuse me of making things up without any evidence, YET you are making ASSUMPTIONS about this girls relationship with absolutely no INSIGHT; with no evidence yourself.

And no it's not her moral obligation, something lost on a lot of bible bashers is that one of Jesus's fundamental teachings is that not to judge, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". She won't judge her BF, all she can do is hope that he comes to the realization himself.

Zillah wrote: »

Post 98, one page back from this one:

Fair enough, apologies.

Zillah

LZ5by5 wrote: »

This is amazing, you accuse me of making things up without any evidence, YET you are making ASSUMPTIONS about this girls relationship with absolutely no INSIGHT; with no evidence yourself.

What have I made up? Please quote one point where I asserted something as fact without evidence. I think you'll find that where I've stated a fact, it is a fact, and where I've conjectured I've phrased it as such.

And no it's not her moral obligation, something lost on a lot of bible bashers is that one of Jesus's fundamental teachings is that not to judge, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". She won't judge her BF, all she can do is hope that he comes to the realization himself.

I'm not proposing she judge him in any moral sense, simply that she try to save him from the most awful fate that a human being can experience. In exactly the same way I might try to stop my partner from taking a lethal amount of drugs without making a moral judgement as to their actions. This isn't about judging, it's about practical consequences. Jesus himself dedicated his life to trying to convince people to follow God's wishes, it's an entirely different concept to judging in the "cast the first stone" sense.

Handsome Bob

Originally posted by Zillah
I'm just pointing out that there has to be an inconsistency in her position somewhere. If she believes he won't go to heaven but does nothing then she clearly doesn't care about him much (or doesn't really believe it).

Where's the fact in assuming she doesn't care for her boyfriend? She respects his beliefs and she understands that she won't be able to persuade him to covert. Again she won't judge, as the I pointed out earlier from the "cast the stone" quote.

I'm not proposing she judge him in any moral sense, simply that she try to save him from the most awful fate that a human being can experience. In exactly the same way I might try to stop my partner from taking a lethal amount of drugs without making a moral judgement as to their actions. This isn't about judging, it's about practical consequences.

Immediate danger anyone? That's the consequence of a leathal overdose, not the quite same as being agnostic at a certain time in life. Maybe she's not preaching to him because she believes they have a long lifespan together, and albeit perhaps naively, she is willing to settle and hope that eventually he'll "see the light" on his own.