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More slippage in NBS timetable

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    #32
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    So going by your last post, we can agree that satellite is a poor solution, and a solution available pretty much anywhere right now, right?

    Then why the need to include it in the NBS? The vast majority (if not 100%) of the last NBS "10%" can get satellite, but because of it's latency, contention, low speed, and expense, it's not suitable as a reliable, modern broadband source. That will be the opinion of everyone in the industry, users who have access to both, and the founders of the NBS.

    So far, the only opinion contrary to that is that of satellite resellers (and they're just that .. resellers of a service provided by someone else altogether). I can't recall anyone else expressing the opinion that satellite is a viable broadband solution. Not to be confused when there's nothing else available, it's a God-send.

    Which begs the question: do you run, or work for, a satellite internet provider or an agent thereof?


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    #33
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    I was involved with sat isp overseas for a few years in a third world country, made a lot of people happy, internet/tv/voip/vpn out in the jungle.
    May get back into it here, bit surprised to learn what a monster its considered here.


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    #34
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Cheap < €60 a month Sat is often poorer than 3G/HSDPA, very very high contention (some services you share with whole of Europe!). Buisness grade Satellite always better than 3G/HSDPA, basically DSL performance but TEN times plus (> 850ms) latency is about €200 per month.

    Thus Satellite is not an alternative IMO to an NBS.


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    #35
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    OneBarrel wrote: »
    So, if you required broadband in a location which was 2 years away from dsl or other "first world" services would you refuse a "third world" solution like vsat?

    a) Most people could not afford it.

    b) No good for applications needing < 80ms latency. 850ms+ latency.

    c) Upload on cheap high contention systems easily lower than ISDN and lower than 1ch ISDN in rain.

    d) poor for VPN

    e) no hosting at all at all.

    f) Very low cap traditionally.

    For years I had to only have BB in work and dialup at home. We did briefly consider it for work before Esat installed DSL.


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    #36
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    watty wrote: »

    d) poor for VPN

    I think this says it all TBH. The NBS should be about enabling people to work from home in my opinion which will require good quality, reliable VPN in a lot of companies.

    The advantages of allowing people to work from home are less travel meaning better quality of life for employees and less pollution from cars on our roads.


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    #37
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    OneBarrel wrote: »
    I was involved with sat isp overseas for a few years in a third world country, made a lot of people happy, internet/tv/voip/vpn out in the jungle.
    May get back into it here, bit surprised to learn what a monster its considered here.

    The point is that we are not a third world country and people shouldn't have to get satellite, everyone here knows satellite is not comparable to Dsl/cable/fixed wireless.
    OneBarrel wrote: »
    So, if you required broadband in a location which was 2 years away from dsl or other "first world" services would you refuse a "third world" solution like vsat?
    Of course not, but that is not the point. The point of the NBS is to give people access to first world solutions and to get them away from dialup/satellite, if a satellite company was included in the NBS it would make it completely pointless.
    OneBarrel wrote: »
    Thats super.
    Vsat is a poor broadband solution, no doubt. It's certainly on the fringe of the definition of broadband. I am using "real" broadband at home. If I lived outside the range of "real" broadband I would be happy with a sat connection. I don't like vsat bashing cause it's done by people with a shiny piece of fiber sticking out of their cisco router. I have worked in areas where dsl etc is not possible and am glad to have that ugly dish outside.

    You might have been glad to have that ugly dish outside buts its still useless for so many things and if you had the choice you would have DSL or fixed wireless.
    I think you will find that most people here have had the experience of not having proper broadband or else they would not be very concerned with the NBS or broadband availability for that matter.
    Satellite shouldn't be considered a solution for a country that prides itself on its hi tech economy, it is more suited for getting net access in the middle of a desert.


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    #38
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    smellslikeshoes wrote: »
    It is more suited for getting net access in the middle of a desert.

    It is ideal for The Irish Army in Darfur of course.

    It should be excluded from the policy matrix in Ireland , we easily have enough masts and money to use carrier grade wireless here instead.


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    #39
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    Any idea how long it will take either of BT Communications Ireland Ltd Consortium, eircom Ltd, Hutchinson 3G Ireland Ltd, to got broadband into the unserved areas?


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    #40
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    awwwww phew .

    BT actually builds and helps plan much of the O2 network and can co lo there , so fairly quick I should think including filling coverage holes for O2 as a side effect .
    eircom, whatever they feel like it would be grand .
    hutchison, teh country is bollixed if they get it .


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    #41
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    awwwww phew .

    BT actually builds and helps plan much of the O2 network and can co lo there , so fairly quick I should think including filling coverage holes for O2 as a side effect .
    eircom, whatever they feel like it would be grand .
    hutchison, teh country is bollixed if they get it .

    I don't know about the specifics but BT also have a similar agreement with Hutchinson (so it can't be that well planned :p). I'm interested in what sort of setup BT would use if they were given the contract, do they have any wireless spectrum? The obvious choice for the contract is definitely Eircom with their nice slice of wireless spectrum.


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    #42
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭clohamon


    The Map has been updated. The proposed (blue) areas are gone and it is all in a single layer so you can see the locations underneath.

    Its 15MB

    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme.htm


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    #43
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    They admit that people in the "covered area" (thus excluded from NBS) can't get BB.
    Note: The data in this map is for reference only, urban and vegetation effects on signal have not been taken into consideration,
    transmission anomalies may also occur in certain areas and from transmission equipment.


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    #44
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    lol, my parents are in a supposed covered area, the best they can get is O2 because the only wireless operator covering the area has one mast we can connect to and there is no line of sight.


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    #45
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭clohamon


    Telecommunications Services.

    259. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
    * the progress on the national broadband scheme; when it will achieve 100% coverage in north Tipperary; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

    [31753/08]
    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
    **The Invitation to Tender (ITT) for the National Broadband Scheme issued on 25 August 2008. The closing date for receipt of tenders is 6 October 2008. The NBS contract is scheduled to be signed in November 2008, with rollout of the services due to begin as soon as possible thereafter, subject to agreement with the chosen service provider.
    The National Broadband Scheme (NBS) will provide broadband services to areas that are currently unserved including any unserved areas in North Tipperary and will ensure that all reasonable requests for broadband are met.
    Question No. 260 answered with Question No. 256.

    Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080925.xml&Node=H15&Page=33&gt;

    I believe there is also a "preferred bidder" stage which has not been mentioned. That should be good for a few more months. Then of course there's the money.


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    #46
    damien
    Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    Heard November mentioned by the Department too last week. And if it's late November then it could very well be January because December is a bad month but then so is January...


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    #47
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭clohamon


    415.
    Deputy Seán Sherlock asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
    * the reason for the ongoing delay in the appointment of a contractor for the national broadband scheme; the date for commencement of the scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

    [33859/08]
    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
    *I propose to take Questions Nos. 409 and 415 together.
    The Invitation to Tender (ITT) for the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) issued on 25 August 2008. Various complex legal and commercial matters raised by the service providers towards the end of the competitive dialogue process were addressed prior to the issuing of the ITT. The closing date for receipt of tenders was 6 October 2008 and two bids were received from eircom Ltd and Hutchinson 3G Ireland Ltd. The NBS contract is scheduled to be signed early next month, with rollout of the services due to begin as soon as possible thereafter, subject to agreement with the chosen service provider.
    All requests for a broadband service in the areas to be addressed by the NBS will be met.

    Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20081007.XML&Node=H22-214&Page=32&gt;


    The underlined bit at the end looks a bit slippery. Compare it with the following from a few days ago.
    "The National Broadband Scheme (NBS) will provide broadband services to areas that are currently unserved including any unserved areas in North Tipperary and will ensure that all reasonable requests for broadband are met."


    Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.


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    #48
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Wasn't there a third company that was supposed to be considered instead of eircom or 3.

    Basically this is a farce. 3 can't be given the contract because they aren't a broadband provider (they aren't even a service provider to a lot of people who are signed up to their service).

    This leaves one option eircom further enhancing the dominant position in the market they have when we should be trying to introduce competition.

    Opportunity lost and this whole thing is a bigger joke because the NBS doesn't even bring broadband to everyone. This will be just another failed project by this government which I suspect is why Fianna Fail are happy to let the greens be in charge of it so that it won't hurt them in the elections when they have been in power for about a decade now and done nothing worthwhile to help with the rollout of broadband in this country and haven't even managed to create a credible regulator for the country.


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    #49
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.[/quote]


    Why do you say this?


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    #50
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    OneBarrel wrote: »
    Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.


    Why do you say this?[/QUOTE]

    Because some satellite providers challenged the NBS to be included even though they satellite isn't a proper broadband solution.

    I think he's just saying they aren't going to be included after all.


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    #51
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    [QUOTE=brim4brim;

    I think he's just saying they aren't going to be included after all.[/QUOTE]

    That's one small bit of good news, no more "sat is good" nonsense when it's patently a solution for the jungles or the deserts of Africa.


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    #52
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭clohamon


    OneBarrel wrote: »
    Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.

    Why do you say this?


    The "areas that are unserved" and the "areas to be addressed by the NBS" are not necessarily the same thing. The first implies every pocket in the entire country. The second implies only those areas that form part of the contract, which may be limited to what the contractor thinks is feasible.

    Pockets could only really be dealt with economically by satellite or else you'd have mobile or FWA base stations everywhere. So if its the first, its satellite everywhere, and if its the second its only satellite where the NBS contractor fails on his own terms.

    You could claim that the scheme by definition includes the whole country, and therefore the contract must include the whole country, but then why change the wording.

    There was some talk at the NBB case about whether the NBS scheme and the Map were linked in any legal sense, and as far as I remember the Department were making the point that they weren't.

    Paranoia rules!

    Update:
    The National Broadband Scheme (NBS) will provide broadband services to certain target areas in Ireland in which broadband services are not available and are unlikely to be available in the foreseeable future.

    Pasted from <http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme.htm&gt;


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    #53
    SteveAwol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭SteveAwol


    I live in one of the Green areas on the broadband map and am anxiously awaiting the outcome of the NBS contract award.
    However these last postings are beginning to worry me. Is there a minimum or maximum amount of satellite allowed or required as per the NBS ? For instance is it up to the contractor to say where he is going to cover and how he is going to cover it or will the minister decide this ? From reading what has been said in the dail he seems to be getting lukewarm about it and leaving it up to the contractor.
    Could the situation arise where on one side of a valley there is adsl and on another side of the valley there is satellite with the obvious difference that I assume that with adsl you can get speeds up to 6 meg by paying extra for it but if you are receiving by satellite you do not have this option.
    I hope that 3 don’t get it as I assume that, as they don’t have good coverage at the moment they are going to have to put in all new masts everywhere. On the basis that these masts will have to have planning permission which in Ireland generally takes about 6 months this means that even if they were appointed tomorrow they would not be in a position to commence installation for another six months.
    On top of this would be the problem that a lot of communities will object to any mast being located in their area with the result that the planning application alone could take months and months. (I am beginning to talk myself into despair at this stage )
    Will I still be without broadband in twelve months ?


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    #54
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭clohamon


    SteveAwol wrote: »
    Will I still be without broadband in twelve months ?

    The scheme is supposed to be technology neutral so it could be any mixture of dsl, fwa mobile or satellite depending on what the winner thought was cheapest in any given area.

    The minimum standard is 1Mb down/ 128Kb up. There were other standards earlier such as VOIP, VPN, gaming friendly etc., but I'd say they're toast at this stage. The minimum had to be delivered at a the going market rate. If you want any more you'll probably have to pay extra.

    I don't know what a "target area" is or where they are. It could mean no more than the line of sight from a given location. It almost certainly does not mean all the green areas on the map. So its possible that there will be no satellite at all, and the holes in any FWA/HSDPA service radius will be out of the scheme.

    You're probably right about 3 Ireland taking longer, particularly as Eircom may litigate if they don't win. Given what the Minister has been saying over recent months they may have a case.

    The initial tender specified a maximum contract roll-out period of 5 years.

    So, to answer your question. If you have it in a year you'll be one of the first.


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    #55
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    SteveAwol wrote: »
    Could the situation arise where on one side of a valley there is adsl and on another side of the valley there is satellite with the obvious difference that I assume that with adsl you can get speeds up to 6 meg by paying extra for it but if you are receiving by satellite you do not have this option.

    Very, very little will be DSL. At any kind of rural distance 1Mbps may be the maximum.

    So on one edge you could have DSL that will only work at 1Mbps and on the other Satellite that could be upgraded to 3Mbps!

    Most will be wireless.


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    #56
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭clohamon



    From yesterday in Dail Eireann
    Telecommunications Services.
    *195.* Deputy Simon Coveney*** asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources*** the timescale for the conclusion of the tendering process for the national broadband scheme; the estimated roll-out time for broadband services to all areas of the country under the national broadband scheme; the estimated cost of the national broadband scheme in 2009; the areas that will be covered by the scheme; if he will confirm that all areas not currently provided with a broadband service will be covered by the scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36340/08]
    *197.* Deputy Emmet Stagg*** asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources*** if he will proceed with the national rural broadband scheme; when he will announce the competition for same; the funding available in 2009, 2010 and 2011 for same; and when the notification of the winner of the competition will be announced.. [36346/08]
    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):****I propose to take Questions Nos. 195 and 197 together.
    My Department has reached the evaluation stage of the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) procurement process. The evaluation of bids is scheduled for completion shortly and the contract is expected to be signed next month. In order to protect the integrity of the procurement process, the financial information relating to the Scheme will not be disclosed at this stage.
    Subject to agreement with the chosen service provider, rollout of services is expected to begin shortly after the contract is signed. The chosen service provider will be required to complete the roll out of services within 22 months of the contract award. All requests for a broadband service in the areas to be addressed by the NBS will be met.

    All of which leaves the original question unanswered. Which areas are to be addressed by the NBS?


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    #57
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The budget for 2009 is €43m , it is in the estimates

    There originally was an allocation for 2008 but as I explained HERE Ryan blew it on the great wood pellet scam . That is why the NBS will not start until 2009 .

    The good news ( I suppose) is that it must be finished by end 2010 not by end 2013 like Ryan originally wanted .

    The budget for 2010 is tentatively ( I hear) €32m for a grand total of €75m

    This is to do 15% of the population according to Ryan on Matt Cooper today ( 20 mins before 7pm which will be uploaded here later or tomorrow )

    http://audio.todayfm.com/lwpodcasting.xml

    The population is estimated at 4.4m and 15% of that is 660k

    This 660k lives in households with an average size of 2.8 persons meaning 236k households are to be served by this scheme .

    The €75m available is therefore a subsidy of €317.80 per household . An ADSL port in an exchange costs €80 ...(but that is not the total cost of installing ADSL because backhaul may also be required )


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    #58
    kaizersoze
    Registered Users Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭kaizersoze


    As I feared.....
    The rollout of improved broadband across the country is to be delayed for a year.

    In the Dáil today, Communications Minister Eamon Ryan said the National Broadband Scheme is taking longer than he would have liked.

    He added that it is now hoped the scheme will be in place by mid 2010. The original deadline was for the end of 2009.

    He was responding to a question from Fine Gael's Simon Coveney, who asked was it now a reasonable assumption that project would not be in place until the end of 2010.
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/1029/broadband.html


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    #59
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    What a crock of sh**! TBH.

    This is yet more evidence (if more evidence was needed) that this government doesn't take this issue seriously at all!


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    #60
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    brim4brim wrote: »
    What a crock of sh**! TBH.

    Eamonn launched ( another) new green scheme in June which is having a detrimental effect on his departmental budget . In typical Ryan style he takes something conceptually useful and makes it utterly useless ( except for his mates the eco consultant lobby who will cream most of the money off Guaranteed ) :(

    In fact the wastage alone on the Green this that and the other schemes that Ryan has encouraged or launched since taking office only a year ago has been

    AS GREAT THAN THE ANTICIPATED COST OF THE NBS

    Thats right, Ryan has blown €70m on consultants and scammers since he took office , the useless **** :(

    I will leave the telling rest of this sad to Tony McGinley from Kerry who keeps a very close eye on the antics of the human Wood Pellet ( and part time minister) .

    http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-irish-green-grant-scheme.html

    His blog http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/ is a gripping litany of how Ryan operates :( Follow that money Tony .
    The scheme is essentially aimed at encouraging the retro-fitting of the 1 million older homes with energy saving insulation and control systems. This is something I have been preaching for and ranting about for a long time.

    Applicants just might if they are lucky get up to €2,750 but not unless they jump through a lot of hoops, are prepared to pay over the top prices, shelve out a lot of cash, and hand over €100 for a “survey” .

    The scheme is initially available to householders in north Tipperary, Limerick, Clare and Dundalk. It will become available elsewhere later on.

    The idea is basically a really good one - but already I can smell a bad smell from the application of the scheme.

    Catch Number One

    But here is the catch: house holders will have to pay out €100 towards a building energy assessment, with the government covering the remainder of the typical €350 fee. Geeeeze!!! €350 for a bloody "survey" - - This is a “licence to print money” for the “eco consultants”. I could insulate my entire attic fully for little more than the cost of the bloody survey.

    Catch Number Two

    More grants will then be available for 30% of the cost of the insulation etc up to a maximum of €2,500 as recommended by the survey. Oh boy!!! Will there be some back scratching here!!!

    I bet you the 30% will be eaten up just like the €4200 wood pellet boiler grant managed to be fully absorbed by the hungry hoards of “specialists”, "cowboys", and gougers that were let loose on an unsuspecting public by SEI. (see previous post "cheaper without the grant")

    I predict this is not going to be a great runner. I for one will not be bothering with it. I will be upgrading my attic insulation on a DIY basis. If the minister and his advisors had thought about it, fixing the price of the insulation materials and other supplies needed and then, only then, subsidising the costs, might have been a better approach than the current one of "feeding the greed monster"

    Catch Number Three

    SEI (Sustainable Energy Ireland), a government agency, is involved, and that does not inspire me with confidence especially after the complete bollix they made of the Wood Pellet Grants Scheme. SEI is a CIE or ESB like institution - the employees being "insulated" from the reality of direct responsibility and consequences. (Heck!! wouldn't I love a job like that)

    If you want to risk it - you can ring 1850 927 000 or log on to www.sei.ie

    I am sure I will get stick for this rant - especially from "eco" consultants and SEI employees - but hey - I can take it!!!


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    #61
    mumhaabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭mumhaabu


    brim4brim wrote: »
    What a crock of sh**! TBH.

    This is yet more evidence (if more evidence was needed) that this government doesn't take this issue seriously at all!

    [sarcasm]Dude you must remember it so much more important that we use that money to subvent wood pellet boilers and solar panels in house that will never be occupied, remember we must all do our part to cut carbon emissions.[/sarcasm]

    I knew this was going to happen and the next thing that will happen soon will be the folding of Eircom and a total Esop takeover.


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