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More slippage in NBS timetable

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  • 04-06-2008 5:39pm
    #1
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭


    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
    **The provision of broadband services is, blah..blah...blah............
    The role of the Government is to formulate blah blah....
    The widespread provision of broadband services continues to be a priority blah..blah..blah...
    Although broadband is now widely.... blah, blah...... it is expected that all homes blah,.. blah.. It is anticipated that a preferred bidder will be selected and appointed in August 2008.

    Edited from:


    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080529.xml&Node=H15&Page=26


«13

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    #2
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    2008 money gone on wood pellets just like 2007 money went on wood pellets .

    There is no money !!!!


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    #3
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    2008 money gone on wood pellets just like 2007 money went on wood pellets .

    There is no money !!!!

    The esteemed minister for "believe me" and wood pellets should do the honourable thing and resign. I bet he hasn't the balls to do that either

    Indeed he doesn't seem to do anything else of value to the country.

    The most useless minister in the cabinet...


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    #4
    crawler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭crawler


    Hmm....be interesting to see what happens with the court case next week.......the one NBB are taking...


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    #5
    mike76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27 ✭mike76


    what could happen?


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    #6
    crawler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭crawler


    Anything could happen - from nothing at all to it being withdrawn. To be honest, no point in ever trying to second guess it - the courts will decide.


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    #7
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If NBB aka CrossCountry BB win...

    No point to NBS at all


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    #8
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    I honestly think the court case is nothing more than a bit of publicity for NBB and a chance to give the minister a black eye. Only definite outcome of it in my opinion is embarrassment for the minister for leaving the situation open for this to happen.


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    #9
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    any more info on this court case , like a linkee poo please ??

    not This one is it ??

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55569943


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    #10
    mike76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27 ✭mike76


    how can a scheme for 10/15/20% of the population be put in danger by a crowd like that?!


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    #11
    kaizersoze
    Registered Users Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭kaizersoze


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    any more info on this court case , like a linkee poo please ??

    not This one is it ??

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55569943

    No. This one.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055279997


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    #12
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Well since the NBS is about as about as likely to happen as a nuclear power plant being built in the country they don't really have anything to object to.

    The NBS is just a buzz word for the government to say when told they don't do anything on broadband. It will constantly be delayed until they can say economic times don't allow for it because they won't get any benefit from it politically. The speed given by the NBS to people won't impress the people and so there is no benefit. Once they roll out those speeds, people will just be wondering when the next speed upgrade is going to happen or complain about the quality of the service in place by the winner of the NBS.

    Its a shame really but the government actions just seem to back me up on that. Its going to take some amount of pressure to actually get them to take action on this issue. They clearly don't see it as relevant to keeping the economy going because they don't understand how modern business works obviously. Cheap, fast communication is required by business and the government is refusing to provide it.


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    #13
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    even if the NBS does start in q3 2008 the timeframe for completion is 5 years meaning many will have to wait until 2013 to see if they get anything .


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    #14
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭clohamon


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    even if the NBS does start in q3 2008 .

    There was some slightly interesting stuff at a committee meeting with TIF representatives on 28th May. The final tender still hasn't issued it seems.

    Deputy Simon Coveney:
    **If an operator provides for a market as a result of having received funding to erect a mast to facilitate another area, there will be a clawback.
    Mr. Peter Evans:**Yes. The operator will not be given funding to provide services for customers outside the national broadband scheme area. Determining how the mechanics and finances of this system will operate will be the subject of detailed work.
    Mr. John McKeon: *Everyone recognises these are complex issues but it is not beyond the wit of man to solve them and it is imperative that we do. The Department and its advisers face a challenge in framing the final tender which has yet to issue. We have engaged in dialogue and must formulate the contract. We will respond to that challenge.

    Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=MAJ20080528.xml&Node=196&gt;


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    #15
    crawler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭crawler


    I think they would all just like it to quietly go away.....This (the NBS) should have been simple but was made complex.

    TIF, IMHO represents the markets larger player in fixed and mobile and little else.


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    #16
    crawler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭crawler


    THE EXCLUSION of broadband satellite companies from tendering under a scheme to provide State aid to companies to extend broadband services to remote areas was done without consultation and is unfair, unreasonable and invalid, the Commercial Court was told yesterday.

    Anthony Collins SC, for National Broadband Ltd (NBL), a satellite broadband provider with offices at the Georgian Village, Castleknock, Dublin, was opening the company's challenge to its exclusion from tendering under the National Broadband Scheme (NBS)

    The action against the Minister for Communications, who proposes to award a contract under the scheme next month, is being heard in the Commercial Court.

    NBL is challenging the Minister's decision communicated to it on January 14th last which, it alleges, excludes satellite broadband providers from tendering under the NBS and exhibits an "anti-satellite bias". The NBS is intended to provide improved access to broadband internet services in areas within the State currently without such services.

    To implement the NBS, the Minister established a methodology to identify current and prospective broadband coverage within the State which involved preparing a map of the State divided into areas where broadband is (1) currently available; (2) will be available in the foreseeable future; and (3) will not be available in the foreseeable future.

    In preparing the map, the Minister invited submissions for broadband service providers regarding their coverage in the State.

    However, while having regard to submissions from providers using digital subscriber line or wireless/mobile technology, the Minister refused to take account of submissions from satellite service providers, NBL complains.

    The case continues today.


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    #17
    clohamon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭clohamon


    News from the Commercial Court (wednesday)

    NBB points
    Claims exclusion from the map and contract
    DCENR did not properly consider NBB's application to be included in map.
    Excluded it on grounds of cost (challenged)
    Emails not responded to.
    Unable to confirm business with a major customer because of uncertainty over its status
    NBB Satellite within the terms of the specification.
    Satellite is wireless so it should be included in a map titled “ Wireless and DSL Broadband Coverage”
    Remedy is for DCENR to propose.

    And for good measure:
    If Satellite was accepted as a solution then the whole NBS could be abandoned and the state saved a lot of money. (I'm not joking)


    DCENR points
    DCENR did consider NBB application in detail, because NBB submitted a detailed letter, which was considered.
    No relief/remedy due because the contract has not been awarded yet.
    Ongoing process.
    Open to the minister to dispense with the whole tendering business at the last minute and consider another way.



    Issues
    Did DCENR not consider satellite at all, or did they consider it and reject it.
    EU waiver was based on technology neutral scheme.
    Are exclusion from the map and exclusion from the contract the same thing?

    All ended 1.00pm

    Justice McGovern reserved judgement for ASAP


    Some champion hair-splitting on both sides. Lots of nice blue bottled water, wigs, gowns, well polished shoes and the sound of money being made.


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    #18
    long_b
    Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭long_b


    Is this just a strategy announcement or are they going to announce who gets the NBS ? Really hope it's not 3.

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0624/1214257072248.html

    Strategy aims for total broadband coverage in State

    HARRY MCGEE, Political Staff

    IRELAND WILL have "ubiquitous" broadband coverage by the end of next year and will enjoy broadband speeds that will be among the highest in Europe by 2012, according to a Government strategy to be announced next week.

    The "Next Generation" broadband strategy will be published on July 3rd by Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan. An internal Department of Communications document seen by The Irish Times says the aim of the strategy will be to have "ubiquitous access to broadband by 2009".

    It continues: "By 2012 speeds equivalent to or higher than that in competitor EU regions will be available over a variety of platforms."

    The paper concedes these targets are challenging, as 40 per cent of the population live in rural areas and fewer than 10 per cent live in apartments, unlike many European countries where populations tend to live in densely-populated urban environments.

    Another innovation, according to the paper, will be the separation of services from the network used to deliver these services. Mr Ryan strongly suggested at a telecoms industry event last month that his preference was for such open-ended networks through which all operators could provide services.

    Next week's launch comes four months after Mr Ryan convened a group of international experts to advise him on the strategy.

    Among the issues considered was whether the Government should fund the development of next-generation broadband or whether it should allow the roll-out to be led by the private sector, with State funding being provided only for areas that might be ignored.

    The experts also advised the department on the relative merits of fixed and wireless services for the delivery of the fastest-possible and cheapest-possible broadband.

    While broadband take-up continues to grow quickly in Ireland, the last benchmarking update by Forfás at the end of 2007 showed that broadband penetration in Ireland still lagged behind the OECD average, and that there remained a limited range and speed of broadband services. It showed that the fastest speed widely available of six megabytes per second costs four to five times more than much higher-speed services in countries such as France, Germany and Hungary.

    The procurement process to roll out broadband under the National Broadband Scheme to the remaining 10 per cent of the State is currently on hold due to a High Court challenge to the process.

    Fine Gael's communications spokesman Simon Coveney has been a consistent critic of Mr Ryan's broadband policies.

    Mr Coveney has said that Mr Ryan has not moved quickly enough to make good the deficit, pointing to statistics that shows Ireland lying 20th out of 30 OECD countries for penetration and 33rd out of 35 countries for speed.


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    #19
    crawler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭crawler


    I am looking forward to this report and to seeing what is contains....(I am less convinced of the NBS, good idea - badly executed - A case of "analysis paralysis" - it tried to be just a bit too clever and will probably die)

    Access to the vast amount of Government owned duct, planning for new street cabs, new policies on laying of open access duct to new developments, laying new duct when building roads, railways, water schemes, burying OH cables etc etc etc would all be very welcome and would have an immediate impact on investment in telecoms if done in an open transparent and SIMPLE manner with equal treatment for all.


    Related:-

    Communications Minister Eamon Ryan visited Japan last week to examine Japan's growth as a 'ubiquitous networked society' and to identify how Ireland can learn from the Japanese experience. Addressing the annual Ireland-Japan Chamber of Commerce meeting, Minister Ryan explained that the two countries will work together "to build on current collaborations and to identify and facilitate new opportunities across a range of technology solutions to address the many common challenges we both face as successful developed economies."


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    #20
    PixelTrawler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,299 ✭✭✭PixelTrawler


    Ah yes, Im sure theres lots we can teach the Japanese :D

    A short and sweet little piece from Walter Mitty
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/govt-aims-for-100-broadband-coverage-by-end-2009-1420097.html


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    #21
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    long_b wrote: »
    Another innovation, according to the paper, will be the separation of services from the network used to deliver these services. Mr Ryan strongly suggested at a telecoms industry event last month that his preference was for such open-ended networks through which all operators could provide services.

    Next week's launch comes four months after Mr Ryan convened a group of international experts to advise him on the strategy.

    Services?

    Almost EVERY ISP simply provides a connection to all the separate 3rd party services now (The Internet). Use of the ISP SMTP (server for SENDING only, of email) is optional.

    Really only ever AOL/MSN was anything different. Have I misunderstood something?

    Or is he talking about the "broken" Bitstream DSL model where innovation is stifled and the service providers of eircom's wholesale connection barely make money simply reselling the antiquated version of DSL?


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    #22
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Why can't he just give us what Mary O Rourke promised us all in 2002, 5mbits within 3 years . Tell us that Mary O Rourke was after all a visionary Eamonn but don't try to claim you are .

    Ryan is a deluded liar I fear , the report will be very very very funny from the bits of it I have read.

    I can assure you all of that :D


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    #23
    vincentokane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭vincentokane


    watty wrote: »
    If NBB aka CrossCountry BB win...

    No point to NBS at all

    Why?


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    #24
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    watty wrote: »
    If NBB aka CrossCountry BB win...

    No point to NBS at all

    Serious question, Why?


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    #25
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,886 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    Which one of ye (from the same location) wants to know? Whichever it is, can just do a search on this forum to find out.


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    #26
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    If Satellite was a comparable solution to good fixed wireless or dsl everyone would have it already because it is pretty much available nationwide.


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    #27
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    smellslikeshoes wrote: »
    If Satellite was a comparable solution to good fixed wireless or dsl everyone would have it already because it is pretty much available nationwide.

    In my experienced opinion it is. The latency issue is a decent compromise if you live in the boondocks and 5 years + away from a fiber connection.


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    #28
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Satellite is a Third World Solution for a Third World Country with no proper infrastructure.

    It should not be included in the infrastructural planning matrix for a First World Country at all which means emmmm ......:confused: oops :confused:


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    #29
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    OneBarrel wrote: »
    Serious question, Why?

    Because there is already several nationwide Satellite providers. The NBS is supposed to be providing infrastructure/connections for those that can't get broadband.

    Thus if 3G/HSDPA and Satellite are regarded as Broadband by the Government, then they will claim BB is available to all so no NBS needed.

    Of course others claim that EDGE/3G/HSDPA and Satellite are not Broadband and that nearer 25% to 30% rather than 10% can't get BB.

    Most satellite services have too high a contention, too poor an upload speed and minimum about 800ms RTT latency (too high, physically not possible below 600ms). Business class Satellite at similar to DSL contention & speeds still has the 750ms+ latency (typically 870ms) and is VERY expensive.

    The EDGE/3G/HSDPA is at best 110ms and can easily go over 900ms. Speed with 5 users on a sector is below 400kbps sustained. Speed varies from 100kbps to 3500kbps assuming not GPRS or EDGE. Contention can't be controlled other than refusing connections.

    Real broadband ALWAYS connects, has better than 50ms to 1st router and MINIMUM speed (not up to speed) of about 400kbps down, 100k up at peak times.

    OECD and FCC would not count 3G/HSDPA or Satellite as real Broadband.

    Ireland will still be arguing how to provide 48:1 1Mbps /128k Universal Always On BB (the NBS spec) when the rest of Europe has FTTH or HFC with 10:1 and 25Mbps universal.


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    #30
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Satellite is a Third World Solution for a Third World Country with no proper infrastructure.

    It should not be included in the infrastructural planning matrix for a First World Country at all which means emmmm ......:confused: oops :confused:

    So, if you required broadband in a location which was 2 years away from dsl or other "first world" services would you refuse a "third world" solution like vsat?


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    #31
    OneBarrel
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭OneBarrel


    watty wrote: »
    Because there is already several nationwide Satellite providers. The NBS is supposed to be providing infrastructure/connections for those that can't get broadband.

    Thus if 3G/HSDPA and Satellite are regarded as Broadband by the Government, then they will claim BB is available to all so no NBS needed.

    Of course others claim that EDGE/3G/HSDPA and Satellite are not Broadband and that nearer 25% to 30% rather than 10% can't get BB.

    Most satellite services have too high a contention, too poor an upload speed and minimum about 800ms RTT latency (too high, physically not possible below 600ms). Business class Satellite at similar to DSL contention & speeds still has the 750ms+ latency (typically 870ms) and is VERY expensive.

    The EDGE/3G/HSDPA is at best 110ms and can easily go over 900ms. Speed with 5 users on a sector is below 400kbps sustained. Speed varies from 100kbps to 3500kbps assuming not GPRS or EDGE. Contention can't be controlled other than refusing connections.

    Real broadband ALWAYS connects, has better than 50ms to 1st router and MINIMUM speed (not up to speed) of about 400kbps down, 100k up at peak times.

    OECD and FCC would not count 3G/HSDPA or Satellite as real Broadband.

    Ireland will still be arguing how to provide 48:1 1Mbps /128k Universal Always On BB (the NBS spec) when the rest of Europe has FTTH or HFC with 10:1 and 25Mbps universal.

    Thats super.
    Vsat is a poor broadband solution, no doubt. It's certainly on the fringe of the definition of broadband. I am using "real" broadband at home. If I lived outside the range of "real" broadband I would be happy with a sat connection. I don't like vsat bashing cause it's done by people with a shiny piece of fiber sticking out of their cisco router. I have worked in areas where dsl etc is not possible and am glad to have that ugly dish outside.


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