More slippage in NBS timetable

clohamon

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
**The provision of broadband services is, blah..blah...blah............
The role of the Government is to formulate blah blah....
The widespread provision of broadband services continues to be a priority blah..blah..blah...
Although broadband is now widely.... blah, blah...... it is expected that all homes blah,.. blah.. It is anticipated that a preferred bidder will be selected and appointed in August 2008.

Edited from:


http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080529.xml&Node=H15&Page=26

Sponge Bob

2008 money gone on wood pellets just like 2007 money went on wood pellets .

There is no money !!!!

bealtine

Sponge Bob wrote: »

2008 money gone on wood pellets just like 2007 money went on wood pellets .

There is no money !!!!

The esteemed minister for "believe me" and wood pellets should do the honourable thing and resign. I bet he hasn't the balls to do that either

Indeed he doesn't seem to do anything else of value to the country.

The most useless minister in the cabinet...

crawler

Hmm....be interesting to see what happens with the court case next week.......the one NBB are taking...

mike76

what could happen?

crawler

Anything could happen - from nothing at all to it being withdrawn. To be honest, no point in ever trying to second guess it - the courts will decide.

watty

If NBB aka CrossCountry BB win...

No point to NBS at all

smellslikeshoes

I honestly think the court case is nothing more than a bit of publicity for NBB and a chance to give the minister a black eye. Only definite outcome of it in my opinion is embarrassment for the minister for leaving the situation open for this to happen.

Sponge Bob

any more info on this court case , like a linkee poo please ??

not This one is it ??

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55569943

mike76

how can a scheme for 10/15/20% of the population be put in danger by a crowd like that?!

kaizersoze

Sponge Bob wrote: »

any more info on this court case , like a linkee poo please ??

not This one is it ??

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55569943

No. This one.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055279997

thebman

Well since the NBS is about as about as likely to happen as a nuclear power plant being built in the country they don't really have anything to object to.

The NBS is just a buzz word for the government to say when told they don't do anything on broadband. It will constantly be delayed until they can say economic times don't allow for it because they won't get any benefit from it politically. The speed given by the NBS to people won't impress the people and so there is no benefit. Once they roll out those speeds, people will just be wondering when the next speed upgrade is going to happen or complain about the quality of the service in place by the winner of the NBS.

Its a shame really but the government actions just seem to back me up on that. Its going to take some amount of pressure to actually get them to take action on this issue. They clearly don't see it as relevant to keeping the economy going because they don't understand how modern business works obviously. Cheap, fast communication is required by business and the government is refusing to provide it.

Sponge Bob

even if the NBS does start in q3 2008 the timeframe for completion is 5 years meaning many will have to wait until 2013 to see if they get anything .

clohamon

Sponge Bob wrote: »

even if the NBS does start in q3 2008 .

There was some slightly interesting stuff at a committee meeting with TIF representatives on 28th May. The final tender still hasn't issued it seems.

Deputy Simon Coveney:
**If an operator provides for a market as a result of having received funding to erect a mast to facilitate another area, there will be a clawback.
Mr. Peter Evans:**Yes. The operator will not be given funding to provide services for customers outside the national broadband scheme area. Determining how the mechanics and finances of this system will operate will be the subject of detailed work.
Mr. John McKeon: *Everyone recognises these are complex issues but it is not beyond the wit of man to solve them and it is imperative that we do. The Department and its advisers face a challenge in framing the final tender which has yet to issue. We have engaged in dialogue and must formulate the contract. We will respond to that challenge.

Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=MAJ20080528.xml&Node=196&gt;

crawler

I think they would all just like it to quietly go away.....This (the NBS) should have been simple but was made complex.

TIF, IMHO represents the markets larger player in fixed and mobile and little else.

crawler

THE EXCLUSION of broadband satellite companies from tendering under a scheme to provide State aid to companies to extend broadband services to remote areas was done without consultation and is unfair, unreasonable and invalid, the Commercial Court was told yesterday.

Anthony Collins SC, for National Broadband Ltd (NBL), a satellite broadband provider with offices at the Georgian Village, Castleknock, Dublin, was opening the company's challenge to its exclusion from tendering under the National Broadband Scheme (NBS)

The action against the Minister for Communications, who proposes to award a contract under the scheme next month, is being heard in the Commercial Court.

NBL is challenging the Minister's decision communicated to it on January 14th last which, it alleges, excludes satellite broadband providers from tendering under the NBS and exhibits an "anti-satellite bias". The NBS is intended to provide improved access to broadband internet services in areas within the State currently without such services.

To implement the NBS, the Minister established a methodology to identify current and prospective broadband coverage within the State which involved preparing a map of the State divided into areas where broadband is (1) currently available; (2) will be available in the foreseeable future; and (3) will not be available in the foreseeable future.

In preparing the map, the Minister invited submissions for broadband service providers regarding their coverage in the State.

However, while having regard to submissions from providers using digital subscriber line or wireless/mobile technology, the Minister refused to take account of submissions from satellite service providers, NBL complains.

The case continues today.

clohamon

News from the Commercial Court (wednesday)

NBB points
Claims exclusion from the map and contract
DCENR did not properly consider NBB's application to be included in map.
Excluded it on grounds of cost (challenged)
Emails not responded to.
Unable to confirm business with a major customer because of uncertainty over its status
NBB Satellite within the terms of the specification.
Satellite is wireless so it should be included in a map titled “ Wireless and DSL Broadband Coverage”
Remedy is for DCENR to propose.

And for good measure:
If Satellite was accepted as a solution then the whole NBS could be abandoned and the state saved a lot of money. (I'm not joking)


DCENR points
DCENR did consider NBB application in detail, because NBB submitted a detailed letter, which was considered.
No relief/remedy due because the contract has not been awarded yet.
Ongoing process.
Open to the minister to dispense with the whole tendering business at the last minute and consider another way.



Issues
Did DCENR not consider satellite at all, or did they consider it and reject it.
EU waiver was based on technology neutral scheme.
Are exclusion from the map and exclusion from the contract the same thing?

All ended 1.00pm

Justice McGovern reserved judgement for ASAP


Some champion hair-splitting on both sides. Lots of nice blue bottled water, wigs, gowns, well polished shoes and the sound of money being made.

long_b

Is this just a strategy announcement or are they going to announce who gets the NBS ? Really hope it's not 3.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0624/1214257072248.html

Strategy aims for total broadband coverage in State

HARRY MCGEE, Political Staff

IRELAND WILL have "ubiquitous" broadband coverage by the end of next year and will enjoy broadband speeds that will be among the highest in Europe by 2012, according to a Government strategy to be announced next week.

The "Next Generation" broadband strategy will be published on July 3rd by Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan. An internal Department of Communications document seen by The Irish Times says the aim of the strategy will be to have "ubiquitous access to broadband by 2009".

It continues: "By 2012 speeds equivalent to or higher than that in competitor EU regions will be available over a variety of platforms."

The paper concedes these targets are challenging, as 40 per cent of the population live in rural areas and fewer than 10 per cent live in apartments, unlike many European countries where populations tend to live in densely-populated urban environments.

Another innovation, according to the paper, will be the separation of services from the network used to deliver these services. Mr Ryan strongly suggested at a telecoms industry event last month that his preference was for such open-ended networks through which all operators could provide services.

Next week's launch comes four months after Mr Ryan convened a group of international experts to advise him on the strategy.

Among the issues considered was whether the Government should fund the development of next-generation broadband or whether it should allow the roll-out to be led by the private sector, with State funding being provided only for areas that might be ignored.

The experts also advised the department on the relative merits of fixed and wireless services for the delivery of the fastest-possible and cheapest-possible broadband.

While broadband take-up continues to grow quickly in Ireland, the last benchmarking update by Forfás at the end of 2007 showed that broadband penetration in Ireland still lagged behind the OECD average, and that there remained a limited range and speed of broadband services. It showed that the fastest speed widely available of six megabytes per second costs four to five times more than much higher-speed services in countries such as France, Germany and Hungary.

The procurement process to roll out broadband under the National Broadband Scheme to the remaining 10 per cent of the State is currently on hold due to a High Court challenge to the process.

Fine Gael's communications spokesman Simon Coveney has been a consistent critic of Mr Ryan's broadband policies.

Mr Coveney has said that Mr Ryan has not moved quickly enough to make good the deficit, pointing to statistics that shows Ireland lying 20th out of 30 OECD countries for penetration and 33rd out of 35 countries for speed.

crawler

I am looking forward to this report and to seeing what is contains....(I am less convinced of the NBS, good idea - badly executed - A case of "analysis paralysis" - it tried to be just a bit too clever and will probably die)

Access to the vast amount of Government owned duct, planning for new street cabs, new policies on laying of open access duct to new developments, laying new duct when building roads, railways, water schemes, burying OH cables etc etc etc would all be very welcome and would have an immediate impact on investment in telecoms if done in an open transparent and SIMPLE manner with equal treatment for all.


Related:-

Communications Minister Eamon Ryan visited Japan last week to examine Japan's growth as a 'ubiquitous networked society' and to identify how Ireland can learn from the Japanese experience. Addressing the annual Ireland-Japan Chamber of Commerce meeting, Minister Ryan explained that the two countries will work together "to build on current collaborations and to identify and facilitate new opportunities across a range of technology solutions to address the many common challenges we both face as successful developed economies."

PixelTrawler

Ah yes, Im sure theres lots we can teach the Japanese

A short and sweet little piece from Walter Mitty
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/govt-aims-for-100-broadband-coverage-by-end-2009-1420097.html

watty

long_b wrote: »

Another innovation, according to the paper, will be the separation of services from the network used to deliver these services. Mr Ryan strongly suggested at a telecoms industry event last month that his preference was for such open-ended networks through which all operators could provide services.

Next week's launch comes four months after Mr Ryan convened a group of international experts to advise him on the strategy.

Services?

Almost EVERY ISP simply provides a connection to all the separate 3rd party services now (The Internet). Use of the ISP SMTP (server for SENDING only, of email) is optional.

Really only ever AOL/MSN was anything different. Have I misunderstood something?

Or is he talking about the "broken" Bitstream DSL model where innovation is stifled and the service providers of eircom's wholesale connection barely make money simply reselling the antiquated version of DSL?

Sponge Bob

Why can't he just give us what Mary O Rourke promised us all in 2002, 5mbits within 3 years . Tell us that Mary O Rourke was after all a visionary Eamonn but don't try to claim you are .

Ryan is a deluded liar I fear , the report will be very very very funny from the bits of it I have read.

I can assure you all of that

vincentokane

watty wrote: »

If NBB aka CrossCountry BB win...

No point to NBS at all

Why?

OneBarrel

watty wrote: »

If NBB aka CrossCountry BB win...

No point to NBS at all

Serious question, Why?

cgarvey

Which one of ye (from the same location) wants to know? Whichever it is, can just do a search on this forum to find out.

smellslikeshoes

If Satellite was a comparable solution to good fixed wireless or dsl everyone would have it already because it is pretty much available nationwide.

OneBarrel

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

If Satellite was a comparable solution to good fixed wireless or dsl everyone would have it already because it is pretty much available nationwide.

In my experienced opinion it is. The latency issue is a decent compromise if you live in the boondocks and 5 years + away from a fiber connection.

Sponge Bob

Satellite is a Third World Solution for a Third World Country with no proper infrastructure.

It should not be included in the infrastructural planning matrix for a First World Country at all which means emmmm ...... oops

watty

OneBarrel wrote: »

Serious question, Why?

Because there is already several nationwide Satellite providers. The NBS is supposed to be providing infrastructure/connections for those that can't get broadband.

Thus if 3G/HSDPA and Satellite are regarded as Broadband by the Government, then they will claim BB is available to all so no NBS needed.

Of course others claim that EDGE/3G/HSDPA and Satellite are not Broadband and that nearer 25% to 30% rather than 10% can't get BB.

Most satellite services have too high a contention, too poor an upload speed and minimum about 800ms RTT latency (too high, physically not possible below 600ms). Business class Satellite at similar to DSL contention & speeds still has the 750ms+ latency (typically 870ms) and is VERY expensive.

The EDGE/3G/HSDPA is at best 110ms and can easily go over 900ms. Speed with 5 users on a sector is below 400kbps sustained. Speed varies from 100kbps to 3500kbps assuming not GPRS or EDGE. Contention can't be controlled other than refusing connections.

Real broadband ALWAYS connects, has better than 50ms to 1st router and MINIMUM speed (not up to speed) of about 400kbps down, 100k up at peak times.

OECD and FCC would not count 3G/HSDPA or Satellite as real Broadband.

Ireland will still be arguing how to provide 48:1 1Mbps /128k Universal Always On BB (the NBS spec) when the rest of Europe has FTTH or HFC with 10:1 and 25Mbps universal.

OneBarrel

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Satellite is a Third World Solution for a Third World Country with no proper infrastructure.

It should not be included in the infrastructural planning matrix for a First World Country at all which means emmmm ...... oops

So, if you required broadband in a location which was 2 years away from dsl or other "first world" services would you refuse a "third world" solution like vsat?

OneBarrel

watty wrote: »

Because there is already several nationwide Satellite providers. The NBS is supposed to be providing infrastructure/connections for those that can't get broadband.

Thus if 3G/HSDPA and Satellite are regarded as Broadband by the Government, then they will claim BB is available to all so no NBS needed.

Of course others claim that EDGE/3G/HSDPA and Satellite are not Broadband and that nearer 25% to 30% rather than 10% can't get BB.

Most satellite services have too high a contention, too poor an upload speed and minimum about 800ms RTT latency (too high, physically not possible below 600ms). Business class Satellite at similar to DSL contention & speeds still has the 750ms+ latency (typically 870ms) and is VERY expensive.

The EDGE/3G/HSDPA is at best 110ms and can easily go over 900ms. Speed with 5 users on a sector is below 400kbps sustained. Speed varies from 100kbps to 3500kbps assuming not GPRS or EDGE. Contention can't be controlled other than refusing connections.

Real broadband ALWAYS connects, has better than 50ms to 1st router and MINIMUM speed (not up to speed) of about 400kbps down, 100k up at peak times.

OECD and FCC would not count 3G/HSDPA or Satellite as real Broadband.

Ireland will still be arguing how to provide 48:1 1Mbps /128k Universal Always On BB (the NBS spec) when the rest of Europe has FTTH or HFC with 10:1 and 25Mbps universal.

Thats super.
Vsat is a poor broadband solution, no doubt. It's certainly on the fringe of the definition of broadband. I am using "real" broadband at home. If I lived outside the range of "real" broadband I would be happy with a sat connection. I don't like vsat bashing cause it's done by people with a shiny piece of fiber sticking out of their cisco router. I have worked in areas where dsl etc is not possible and am glad to have that ugly dish outside.

cgarvey

So going by your last post, we can agree that satellite is a poor solution, and a solution available pretty much anywhere right now, right?

Then why the need to include it in the NBS? The vast majority (if not 100%) of the last NBS "10%" can get satellite, but because of it's latency, contention, low speed, and expense, it's not suitable as a reliable, modern broadband source. That will be the opinion of everyone in the industry, users who have access to both, and the founders of the NBS.

So far, the only opinion contrary to that is that of satellite resellers (and they're just that .. resellers of a service provided by someone else altogether). I can't recall anyone else expressing the opinion that satellite is a viable broadband solution. Not to be confused when there's nothing else available, it's a God-send.

Which begs the question: do you run, or work for, a satellite internet provider or an agent thereof?

OneBarrel

I was involved with sat isp overseas for a few years in a third world country, made a lot of people happy, internet/tv/voip/vpn out in the jungle.
May get back into it here, bit surprised to learn what a monster its considered here.

watty

Cheap < €60 a month Sat is often poorer than 3G/HSDPA, very very high contention (some services you share with whole of Europe!). Buisness grade Satellite always better than 3G/HSDPA, basically DSL performance but TEN times plus (> 850ms) latency is about €200 per month.

Thus Satellite is not an alternative IMO to an NBS.

watty

OneBarrel wrote: »

So, if you required broadband in a location which was 2 years away from dsl or other "first world" services would you refuse a "third world" solution like vsat?

a) Most people could not afford it.

b) No good for applications needing < 80ms latency. 850ms+ latency.

c) Upload on cheap high contention systems easily lower than ISDN and lower than 1ch ISDN in rain.

d) poor for VPN

e) no hosting at all at all.

f) Very low cap traditionally.

For years I had to only have BB in work and dialup at home. We did briefly consider it for work before Esat installed DSL.

thebman

watty wrote: »

d) poor for VPN

I think this says it all TBH. The NBS should be about enabling people to work from home in my opinion which will require good quality, reliable VPN in a lot of companies.

The advantages of allowing people to work from home are less travel meaning better quality of life for employees and less pollution from cars on our roads.

smellslikeshoes

OneBarrel wrote: »

I was involved with sat isp overseas for a few years in a third world country, made a lot of people happy, internet/tv/voip/vpn out in the jungle.
May get back into it here, bit surprised to learn what a monster its considered here.

The point is that we are not a third world country and people shouldn't have to get satellite, everyone here knows satellite is not comparable to Dsl/cable/fixed wireless.

OneBarrel wrote: »

So, if you required broadband in a location which was 2 years away from dsl or other "first world" services would you refuse a "third world" solution like vsat?

Of course not, but that is not the point. The point of the NBS is to give people access to first world solutions and to get them away from dialup/satellite, if a satellite company was included in the NBS it would make it completely pointless.

OneBarrel wrote: »

Thats super.
Vsat is a poor broadband solution, no doubt. It's certainly on the fringe of the definition of broadband. I am using "real" broadband at home. If I lived outside the range of "real" broadband I would be happy with a sat connection. I don't like vsat bashing cause it's done by people with a shiny piece of fiber sticking out of their cisco router. I have worked in areas where dsl etc is not possible and am glad to have that ugly dish outside.

You might have been glad to have that ugly dish outside buts its still useless for so many things and if you had the choice you would have DSL or fixed wireless.
I think you will find that most people here have had the experience of not having proper broadband or else they would not be very concerned with the NBS or broadband availability for that matter.
Satellite shouldn't be considered a solution for a country that prides itself on its hi tech economy, it is more suited for getting net access in the middle of a desert.

Sponge Bob

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

It is more suited for getting net access in the middle of a desert.

It is ideal for The Irish Army in Darfur of course.

It should be excluded from the policy matrix in Ireland , we easily have enough masts and money to use carrier grade wireless here instead.

OneBarrel

Any idea how long it will take either of BT Communications Ireland Ltd Consortium, eircom Ltd, Hutchinson 3G Ireland Ltd, to got broadband into the unserved areas?

Sponge Bob

awwwww phew .

BT actually builds and helps plan much of the O2 network and can co lo there , so fairly quick I should think including filling coverage holes for O2 as a side effect .
eircom, whatever they feel like it would be grand .
hutchison, teh country is bollixed if they get it .

smellslikeshoes

Sponge Bob wrote: »

awwwww phew .

BT actually builds and helps plan much of the O2 network and can co lo there , so fairly quick I should think including filling coverage holes for O2 as a side effect .
eircom, whatever they feel like it would be grand .
hutchison, teh country is bollixed if they get it .

I don't know about the specifics but BT also have a similar agreement with Hutchinson (so it can't be that well planned ). I'm interested in what sort of setup BT would use if they were given the contract, do they have any wireless spectrum? The obvious choice for the contract is definitely Eircom with their nice slice of wireless spectrum.

clohamon

The Map has been updated. The proposed (blue) areas are gone and it is all in a single layer so you can see the locations underneath.

Its 15MB

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme.htm

watty

They admit that people in the "covered area" (thus excluded from NBS) can't get BB.

Note: The data in this map is for reference only, urban and vegetation effects on signal have not been taken into consideration,
transmission anomalies may also occur in certain areas and from transmission equipment.

thebman

lol, my parents are in a supposed covered area, the best they can get is O2 because the only wireless operator covering the area has one mast we can connect to and there is no line of sight.

clohamon

Telecommunications Services.

259. Deputy Noel J. Coonan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
* the progress on the national broadband scheme; when it will achieve 100% coverage in north Tipperary; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

[31753/08]
Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
**The Invitation to Tender (ITT) for the National Broadband Scheme issued on 25 August 2008. The closing date for receipt of tenders is 6 October 2008. The NBS contract is scheduled to be signed in November 2008, with rollout of the services due to begin as soon as possible thereafter, subject to agreement with the chosen service provider.
The National Broadband Scheme (NBS) will provide broadband services to areas that are currently unserved including any unserved areas in North Tipperary and will ensure that all reasonable requests for broadband are met.
Question No. 260 answered with Question No. 256.

Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080925.xml&Node=H15&Page=33&gt;

I believe there is also a "preferred bidder" stage which has not been mentioned. That should be good for a few more months. Then of course there's the money.

damien

Heard November mentioned by the Department too last week. And if it's late November then it could very well be January because December is a bad month but then so is January...

clohamon

415.
Deputy Seán Sherlock asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
* the reason for the ongoing delay in the appointment of a contractor for the national broadband scheme; the date for commencement of the scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

[33859/08]
Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
*I propose to take Questions Nos. 409 and 415 together.
The Invitation to Tender (ITT) for the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) issued on 25 August 2008. Various complex legal and commercial matters raised by the service providers towards the end of the competitive dialogue process were addressed prior to the issuing of the ITT. The closing date for receipt of tenders was 6 October 2008 and two bids were received from eircom Ltd and Hutchinson 3G Ireland Ltd. The NBS contract is scheduled to be signed early next month, with rollout of the services due to begin as soon as possible thereafter, subject to agreement with the chosen service provider.
All requests for a broadband service in the areas to be addressed by the NBS will be met.

Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20081007.XML&Node=H22-214&Page=32&gt;


The underlined bit at the end looks a bit slippery. Compare it with the following from a few days ago.

"The National Broadband Scheme (NBS) will provide broadband services to areas that are currently unserved including any unserved areas in North Tipperary and will ensure that all reasonable requests for broadband are met."

Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.

thebman

Wasn't there a third company that was supposed to be considered instead of eircom or 3.

Basically this is a farce. 3 can't be given the contract because they aren't a broadband provider (they aren't even a service provider to a lot of people who are signed up to their service).

This leaves one option eircom further enhancing the dominant position in the market they have when we should be trying to introduce competition.

Opportunity lost and this whole thing is a bigger joke because the NBS doesn't even bring broadband to everyone. This will be just another failed project by this government which I suspect is why Fianna Fail are happy to let the greens be in charge of it so that it won't hurt them in the elections when they have been in power for about a decade now and done nothing worthwhile to help with the rollout of broadband in this country and haven't even managed to create a credible regulator for the country.

OneBarrel

Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.[/quote]


Why do you say this?

thebman

OneBarrel wrote: »

Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.

Why do you say this?[/QUOTE]

Because some satellite providers challenged the NBS to be included even though they satellite isn't a proper broadband solution.

I think he's just saying they aren't going to be included after all.

bealtine

[QUOTE=brim4brim;

I think he's just saying they aren't going to be included after all.[/QUOTE]

That's one small bit of good news, no more "sat is good" nonsense when it's patently a solution for the jungles or the deserts of Africa.