More slippage in NBS timetable

clohamon

OneBarrel wrote: »

Looks like the bonanza for satellite providers may not materialise.

Why do you say this?

The "areas that are unserved" and the "areas to be addressed by the NBS" are not necessarily the same thing. The first implies every pocket in the entire country. The second implies only those areas that form part of the contract, which may be limited to what the contractor thinks is feasible.

Pockets could only really be dealt with economically by satellite or else you'd have mobile or FWA base stations everywhere. So if its the first, its satellite everywhere, and if its the second its only satellite where the NBS contractor fails on his own terms.

You could claim that the scheme by definition includes the whole country, and therefore the contract must include the whole country, but then why change the wording.

There was some talk at the NBB case about whether the NBS scheme and the Map were linked in any legal sense, and as far as I remember the Department were making the point that they weren't.

Paranoia rules!

Update:

The National Broadband Scheme (NBS) will provide broadband services to certain target areas in Ireland in which broadband services are not available and are unlikely to be available in the foreseeable future.

Pasted from <http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/National+Broadband+Scheme.htm&gt;

SteveAwol

I live in one of the Green areas on the broadband map and am anxiously awaiting the outcome of the NBS contract award.
However these last postings are beginning to worry me. Is there a minimum or maximum amount of satellite allowed or required as per the NBS ? For instance is it up to the contractor to say where he is going to cover and how he is going to cover it or will the minister decide this ? From reading what has been said in the dail he seems to be getting lukewarm about it and leaving it up to the contractor.
Could the situation arise where on one side of a valley there is adsl and on another side of the valley there is satellite with the obvious difference that I assume that with adsl you can get speeds up to 6 meg by paying extra for it but if you are receiving by satellite you do not have this option.
I hope that 3 don’t get it as I assume that, as they don’t have good coverage at the moment they are going to have to put in all new masts everywhere. On the basis that these masts will have to have planning permission which in Ireland generally takes about 6 months this means that even if they were appointed tomorrow they would not be in a position to commence installation for another six months.
On top of this would be the problem that a lot of communities will object to any mast being located in their area with the result that the planning application alone could take months and months. (I am beginning to talk myself into despair at this stage )
Will I still be without broadband in twelve months ?

clohamon

SteveAwol wrote: »

Will I still be without broadband in twelve months ?

The scheme is supposed to be technology neutral so it could be any mixture of dsl, fwa mobile or satellite depending on what the winner thought was cheapest in any given area.

The minimum standard is 1Mb down/ 128Kb up. There were other standards earlier such as VOIP, VPN, gaming friendly etc., but I'd say they're toast at this stage. The minimum had to be delivered at a the going market rate. If you want any more you'll probably have to pay extra.

I don't know what a "target area" is or where they are. It could mean no more than the line of sight from a given location. It almost certainly does not mean all the green areas on the map. So its possible that there will be no satellite at all, and the holes in any FWA/HSDPA service radius will be out of the scheme.

You're probably right about 3 Ireland taking longer, particularly as Eircom may litigate if they don't win. Given what the Minister has been saying over recent months they may have a case.

The initial tender specified a maximum contract roll-out period of 5 years.

So, to answer your question. If you have it in a year you'll be one of the first.

watty

SteveAwol wrote: »

Could the situation arise where on one side of a valley there is adsl and on another side of the valley there is satellite with the obvious difference that I assume that with adsl you can get speeds up to 6 meg by paying extra for it but if you are receiving by satellite you do not have this option.

Very, very little will be DSL. At any kind of rural distance 1Mbps may be the maximum.

So on one edge you could have DSL that will only work at 1Mbps and on the other Satellite that could be upgraded to 3Mbps!

Most will be wireless.

clohamon

From yesterday in Dail Eireann

Telecommunications Services.
*195.* Deputy Simon Coveney*** asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources*** the timescale for the conclusion of the tendering process for the national broadband scheme; the estimated roll-out time for broadband services to all areas of the country under the national broadband scheme; the estimated cost of the national broadband scheme in 2009; the areas that will be covered by the scheme; if he will confirm that all areas not currently provided with a broadband service will be covered by the scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36340/08]
*197.* Deputy Emmet Stagg*** asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources*** if he will proceed with the national rural broadband scheme; when he will announce the competition for same; the funding available in 2009, 2010 and 2011 for same; and when the notification of the winner of the competition will be announced.. [36346/08]
Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):****I propose to take Questions Nos. 195 and 197 together.
My Department has reached the evaluation stage of the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) procurement process. The evaluation of bids is scheduled for completion shortly and the contract is expected to be signed next month. In order to protect the integrity of the procurement process, the financial information relating to the Scheme will not be disclosed at this stage.
Subject to agreement with the chosen service provider, rollout of services is expected to begin shortly after the contract is signed. The chosen service provider will be required to complete the roll out of services within 22 months of the contract award. All requests for a broadband service in the areas to be addressed by the NBS will be met.

All of which leaves the original question unanswered. Which areas are to be addressed by the NBS?

Sponge Bob

The budget for 2009 is €43m , it is in the estimates

There originally was an allocation for 2008 but as I explained HERE Ryan blew it on the great wood pellet scam . That is why the NBS will not start until 2009 .

The good news ( I suppose) is that it must be finished by end 2010 not by end 2013 like Ryan originally wanted .

The budget for 2010 is tentatively ( I hear) €32m for a grand total of €75m

This is to do 15% of the population according to Ryan on Matt Cooper today ( 20 mins before 7pm which will be uploaded here later or tomorrow )

http://audio.todayfm.com/lwpodcasting.xml

The population is estimated at 4.4m and 15% of that is 660k

This 660k lives in households with an average size of 2.8 persons meaning 236k households are to be served by this scheme .

The €75m available is therefore a subsidy of €317.80 per household . An ADSL port in an exchange costs €80 ...(but that is not the total cost of installing ADSL because backhaul may also be required )

kaizersoze

As I feared.....

The rollout of improved broadband across the country is to be delayed for a year.

In the Dáil today, Communications Minister Eamon Ryan said the National Broadband Scheme is taking longer than he would have liked.

He added that it is now hoped the scheme will be in place by mid 2010. The original deadline was for the end of 2009.

He was responding to a question from Fine Gael's Simon Coveney, who asked was it now a reasonable assumption that project would not be in place until the end of 2010.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/1029/broadband.html

thebman

What a crock of sh**! TBH.

This is yet more evidence (if more evidence was needed) that this government doesn't take this issue seriously at all!

Sponge Bob

brim4brim wrote: »

What a crock of sh**! TBH.

Eamonn launched ( another) new green scheme in June which is having a detrimental effect on his departmental budget . In typical Ryan style he takes something conceptually useful and makes it utterly useless ( except for his mates the eco consultant lobby who will cream most of the money off Guaranteed )

In fact the wastage alone on the Green this that and the other schemes that Ryan has encouraged or launched since taking office only a year ago has been

AS GREAT THAN THE ANTICIPATED COST OF THE NBS

Thats right, Ryan has blown €70m on consultants and scammers since he took office , the useless ****

I will leave the telling rest of this sad to Tony McGinley from Kerry who keeps a very close eye on the antics of the human Wood Pellet ( and part time minister) .

http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-irish-green-grant-scheme.html

His blog http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/ is a gripping litany of how Ryan operates Follow that money Tony .

The scheme is essentially aimed at encouraging the retro-fitting of the 1 million older homes with energy saving insulation and control systems. This is something I have been preaching for and ranting about for a long time.

Applicants just might if they are lucky get up to €2,750 but not unless they jump through a lot of hoops, are prepared to pay over the top prices, shelve out a lot of cash, and hand over €100 for a “survey” .

The scheme is initially available to householders in north Tipperary, Limerick, Clare and Dundalk. It will become available elsewhere later on.

The idea is basically a really good one - but already I can smell a bad smell from the application of the scheme.

Catch Number One

But here is the catch: house holders will have to pay out €100 towards a building energy assessment, with the government covering the remainder of the typical €350 fee. Geeeeze!!! €350 for a bloody "survey" - - This is a “licence to print money” for the “eco consultants”. I could insulate my entire attic fully for little more than the cost of the bloody survey.

Catch Number Two

More grants will then be available for 30% of the cost of the insulation etc up to a maximum of €2,500 as recommended by the survey. Oh boy!!! Will there be some back scratching here!!!

I bet you the 30% will be eaten up just like the €4200 wood pellet boiler grant managed to be fully absorbed by the hungry hoards of “specialists”, "cowboys", and gougers that were let loose on an unsuspecting public by SEI. (see previous post "cheaper without the grant")

I predict this is not going to be a great runner. I for one will not be bothering with it. I will be upgrading my attic insulation on a DIY basis. If the minister and his advisors had thought about it, fixing the price of the insulation materials and other supplies needed and then, only then, subsidising the costs, might have been a better approach than the current one of "feeding the greed monster"

Catch Number Three

SEI (Sustainable Energy Ireland), a government agency, is involved, and that does not inspire me with confidence especially after the complete bollix they made of the Wood Pellet Grants Scheme. SEI is a CIE or ESB like institution - the employees being "insulated" from the reality of direct responsibility and consequences. (Heck!! wouldn't I love a job like that)

If you want to risk it - you can ring 1850 927 000 or log on to www.sei.ie

I am sure I will get stick for this rant - especially from "eco" consultants and SEI employees - but hey - I can take it!!!

mumhaabu

brim4brim wrote: »

What a crock of sh**! TBH.

This is yet more evidence (if more evidence was needed) that this government doesn't take this issue seriously at all!

[sarcasm]Dude you must remember it so much more important that we use that money to subvent wood pellet boilers and solar panels in house that will never be occupied, remember we must all do our part to cut carbon emissions.[/sarcasm]

I knew this was going to happen and the next thing that will happen soon will be the folding of Eircom and a total Esop takeover.

bealtine

mumhaabu wrote: »

I knew this was going to happen and the next thing that will happen soon will be the folding of Eircom and a total Esop takeover.

Your wish is eircoms command:
http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/1030/eircom.html

Ned Sullivan named as new Eircom chairman
Thursday, 30 October 2008 15:48

Eircom has named Ned Sullivan as its new non executive Chairman. Mr Sullivan replaces Pierre Danon, who announced in June that he was stepping down from the role.

Mr Sullivan is currently Chairman of Greencore Group and McInerney Holdings. He is also a non executive director of Anglo Irish Bank.

Meanwhile, Isle of Man based fund LIT, which is listed on London's FTSE AIM, has made a preliminary approach to buy the fund that controls Eircom - Babcock and Brown Capital, or BCM.

If Eircom is sold, it would be the fifth time the company has changed hands since its privatisation by the government in 1999.

LIT's business is making investments in other companies. It listed on the AIM last month, and when it did so said weakness in stock markets meant there were opportunities to invest in companies at substantially less than their intrinsic value. BCM shares have fallen by 67% over the last year.

According to a statement filed with the stock exchange, LIT is considering calling for an extraordinary general meeting of BCM, because of what it calls the lack of responsiveness to its approach from BCM's directors.

LIT and its associates already own about 6.7% of BCM's shares.

clohamon

Not 22 months, not 60 months, but………….

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources his views on the growing digital divide across rural and urban Ireland as outlined in a report of the Central Statistics Office; the steps he is taking to combat the growth of a digital divide; and if he will make a statement on the matter.


Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan):
Broadband services are crucial in bridging digital divide. The provision of...………………………


........On the 25 November 2008 I announced that 3, a Hutchison Whampoa company, has been selected as the preferred tenderer for the NBS following the conclusion of a comprehensive competitive procurement process. The NBS contract is expected to be signed with 3 by mid-December.
NBS consumers will be provided with a reliable and price competitive broadband connection consisting of an always-on service of at least 1mbps. The service will be upgraded to higher specifications during the 68-month contract without any increase in charge to the consumer.

Pasted from <http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20081202.xml&Node=H20-47#H20-47&gt;

mike76

In 3's terms that means we'll advertise your 1mb mobile broadband product that doesn't work as a 7mb or even 14mb mobile broadband product ........that doesn't work.....

Anyway I've asked this before but does anyone know for certain whether the bids willbe publicly available.....i suspect not......still can't understand this decision.....has disaster/delays written all over it............the govt will just wash their hands and blame 3.......

cgarvey

Is it not ...

60 months .. the duration of the NBS contract
22 months .. the time to get all blackholes served by NBS
8 months .. the time to start getting blackholes covered (and the start of the 60 month contract)?

clohamon

Following the conclusion of a competitive tendering process, the contract to implement and operate the National Broadband Scheme (NBS) was entered into with "3" (a Hutchison Whampoa company trading as 3) on 23 December 2008.

The NBS will deliver broadband to certain target areas in Ireland in which broadband services are not available. Under the contract, 3 will be required to provide services to all premises in the NBS area who seek a service. In order to facilitate competition in the area, 3 will also be required to provide wholesale access to any other authorised operator who wishes to serve premises in the NBS area.

More information, including maps of the areas to be addressed by the NBS, will be available in the coming weeks.
For more information contact:

Update from DCENR website

thebman

clohamon wrote: »

Update from DCENR website

Oh thank god, soon we will have sub dial up speeds. Hurray!

Thank you government.

watty

2ch ISDN @ 128k is error free so can with compression (normal with most websites) be similar to 250k wireless with errors.

The latency on ISDN is stable and much better than the 120ms to 2000ms of HSDPA. Due to how Satellite compared with HSDPA works you only need 220ms Latency on HSDPA for page load times to exceed Satellite Latency of 800ms.


However usually EDGE/3G/HSDPA is better than analogue dialup, which is often 22k to 40k and rarely better than 45k on a 56k modem.

watty

NBS announced on "Morning Ireland" about 8.00am 22nd Jan 2009 RTE Radio 1 as giving "High speed Broadband" to 10% unserved remote users by the end of 21months (Autumn 2010). To be supplied by "3"

Except more than 10% can't get Broadband

Except "3" has a bad record on Network management, IP space, Proxies, email servers and backhaul.

Except HSDPA is not at all High Speed Broadband.

How do we get RTE to do a proper report? It sounded like they just read a Press Statement from Minister Eamonn Ryan.

thebman

watty wrote: »

NBS announced on "Morning Ireland" about 8.00am 22nd Jan 2009 RTE Radio 1 as giving "High speed Broadband" to 10% unserved remote users by the end of 21months (Autumn 2010). To be supplied by "3"

Except more than 10% can't get Broadband

Except "3" has a bad record on Network management, IP space, Proxies, email servers and backhaul.

Except HSDPA is not at all High Speed Broadband.

How do we get RTE to do a proper report? It sounded like they just read a Press Statement from Minister Eamonn Ryan.

He probably wrote the article with the way RTE have been lately.

PropertyBin.com forum users caught them removing articles that would have embarrassed the government from their website the other day (about Anglo).

watty

Link to almost exactly what was read on news
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0122/broadband.html

clohamon

Link to department announcement.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Government+announces+scheme+to+deliver+broadband+across+Ireland.htm


Link to 3 NBS site

http://www.three.ie/nbs/index.htm

watty

From above

Ireland currently has over 1.2 million subscribers to broadband. The National Broadband Scheme will provide the remaining 10% of our population, or approximately 33% of the area of the country, with broadband services (see attached map). Ireland will have 100% coverage by September 2010; half of the area under the scheme will be covered by the end of this year.

Contains at least 3 lies.

• over 1.2 million subscribers to broadband
  --- Subtract: Clearwire, Ripwave and EDGE/3G/HSDPA Mobile
• remaining 10% of our population ... Ireland will have 100% coverage by September 2010
  --- What about the 10% to 20% in already covered areas that can't get Broadband?
• with broadband services
  --- It's not Broadband that is getting rolled out but 3G/HSDPA. It does not meet the original criteria as it doesn't support "Always on", VOIP or Gaming. Additionally upload speeds are typically 1/2 of slowest DSL upload and Download speed will be under 160kbps for 20 simultaneous of a sector.

jbkenn

Interesting bits from the FAQ http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

What technology is being used in Network rollout?
3’s network technology is the best available - Nokia Siemens Network I-HSPA solution. I-HSPA (Intelligent High Speed Packet Access) is industry leading technology which allows operators to offer high quality broadband services in a highly cost efficient way. 3’s network is also ready to be upgraded to LTE or Long Term Evolution which is the next step in mobile broadband technology. The masts which 3 deploys across its network are the lowest footprint, highest capacity and lowest power consumption available in the market place. All in all, that means 3 is deploying the very latest and greatest technologies to give you the best broadband connectivity!

What product will be offered under the NBS?
3 will extend its network to provide mobile wireless broadband services into NBS areas. The mobile wireless broadband service (HSPA), will have a minimum download speed of 1.2mbps, a minimum upload speed of 200kpbs, a maximum contention ratio of 36:1, a latency of 120 milliseconds and a 15gigabit (12 down, 3 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

In recognition of the fact that some areas will be very difficult to reach using standard infrastructure, in a limited number of cases 3 will make available a satellite product, which may cover up to 8% of the NBS areas. The satellite product will have a minimum download speed of 1mbs, a minimum upload speed of 128kbps, a maximum contention ratio of 48:1, latency of 800 milliseconds and a 11gigabit (10 down, 1 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

The products will be upgraded to higher specifications during the contract term without any increase in the monthly recurring charge.

What speeds can people expect at launch?

As part of the NBS contract 3 will deliver the following minimum speeds at launch at the edge of cell. Average speeds for customers will be higher.

Minimum download speed is 1.2Mbps while maximum download speed is 5Mbps
Minimum upload speed is 200Kbps while maximum upload speed is 1.8Mbps
Satellite Minimum download speed is 1Mbps
Satellite upload speed is 128Kbps

Are there plans to upgrade speeds?
Yes. In July 2010 3 will deliver the following minimum speeds at the edge of cell. Average speeds for customers will be however higher.
Minimum download speed is 1.6Mbps while maximum download speed is 6.8Mbps
Minimum upload speed is 1.2Mbps while maximum upload speed is 4Mbps

In October 2012:
Minimum download speed is 2.3Mbps while maximum download speed is 10.4Mbps
Minimum upload speed is 1.4Mbps while maximum upload speed is 4.8Mbps

Will there be download and upload limits and what will they be?
A data cap of 15GB will be available per month
Satellite will have a data cap of 11GB per month

What will be the contention ratio at launch?
36: 1 contention
Satellite 48:1 contention

What will the cost be for the consumer?
The cost to customers will be €19.99 per month for 15GB data allowance with out of bundle charged at 5 cent per MB. There will be a one-off charge of €49 for hardware.

Satellite will be charged at €19.99 per month 11GB data allowance subject to fair usage. There will be a one-off charge of €49 for hardware.

Where can consumers and businesses purchase the service?
There are loads of places up and down the country where you can buy 3’s broadband services. Call into one of 3’s 500 authorised retail outlets, call our dedicated sales line or visit three.ie anytime.

How much is the scheme costing?
The value of the investment required to implement the scheme is c. €223m. The Government is contributing €79.8m to the cost of the project over the 68 month contract period.

Is the NBS project co-funded by the EU?
The project will attract EU co-funding under the ERDF 2007-2013 of approximately €30m, reducing the net cost to the Exchequer to approximately €50m.

jbkenn

Villain

What a pile of crap, I-HSPA and Satellite should be allowed to be called Broadband!!!

lmimmfn

jbkenn wrote: »

What product will be offered under the NBS?
3 will extend its network to provide mobile wireless broadband services into NBS areas. The mobile wireless broadband service (HSPA), will have a minimum download speed of 1.2mbps, a minimum upload speed of 200kpbs, a maximum contention ratio of 36:1, a latency of 120 milliseconds and a 15gigabit (12 down, 3 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.


Will there be download and upload limits and what will they be?
A data cap of 15GB will be available per month
Satellite will have a data cap of 11GB per month

I dont know if you made a mistake posting, but if its 15Mb(bit) thats absolutely crazy, 20euro per month for 1.875GB( 1.5 down/.357 up )!!!!!

Sponge Bob

This 'minimum speed at edge of cell' palaver fails to cover the inevitable eventuality of Cell Breathing .

In 3g networks the cell shrinks physically as it gets full , the radios turn down and teh signal disappears from the fringes. Rural cells are larger and therfefore the effect is more pronounced in geographic terms . Fixed wireless does not have this problem .

The risk in rural areas is that the geographic coverage will literally halve as people come home in the evenings and the cell therefore fills and breathes in .

watty

The minimum speed is a lie pure and simple. For LOTS of reasons.

That speed is for ZERO inter-cell interference, zero other interference and only one user in the entire sector at the window facing the mast with no major obstructions nearby. With 36:1 contention and real homes it could be 100 times slower, slower than typical dialup. Upload is even slower. Delay/Latency/Ping varies from 120ms at best with perfect signal near mast up to 2000ms with 36:1 contention.

There is NO technology to set contention at 36:1 other than refusing connections. Definitely not always on then?



At full cell capacity actually the range is a bit less than half. Simple Geometry shows that this is 1/4 the Geographic coverage. That's about the extend of cell breathe. If cells adjoin to give full coverage and one is at a high site or user is on high site or upstairs window then an adjoining cell can breathe too as users connect!