taekwondo?

BobbyOLeary · 09-10-2008 11:16PM

but of course its a whole different thing to realise a training method is flawed and continue training that way for fun...than to not realise and carry on that way...and worse still pass it on.

On passing it on, I wouldn't agree with you entirely. I pass on these methods every night I go to Kenpo (its where its at), though I don't think I've ever passed them on as the best way to teach or learn something. I pass them on because I've had great enjoyment doing things that way and I want people to have the same experience. Though yes, if someone is passing these on to people as the best way of training then it is a bad prospect.

john kavanagh · 10-10-2008 08:27AM

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Though yes, if someone is passing these on to people as the best way of training then it is a bad prospect.

that was my only point.

Tim_Murphy · 10-10-2008 09:01AM

It's more to instill a fighting spirit, discipline, ettiquette etc. You can't just quit when it gets tough, you can't just do the stuff you like and leave out what ya don't and ya can't just pick who you wanna spar with and who you don't. You can't hide behind anyone in the line or avoid the guy that hits hard. Martial arts

Well leaving aside the irony that using a training method that is meant to instil fighting spirit actually has a negative effect on actual fighting ability (compared to other training methods), you obviously feel like your training instils these things so realising that some of the training methods you use have big holes in them is always going to be difficult. Needless to say it is indeed quite possible to instil fighting spirit, discipline, etiquette etc without having people stand in lines. This is the problem with getting stuck in the ‘traditional’ mindset, which has many similarities to a religious one, people think that if you change one part or indeed throw out one part of what they do they think they’ll lose what it is they think they are getting from it in general. Hence I’ve said TKD ex-colleagues tell me you have to have the line ups, you have to have the gradings, you have to get people to call you Sir and Mr. Murphy. Strangely enough my club managed to do fine without any of those things.

TKD SC · 10-10-2008 09:18AM

ryoishin wrote: »

If you think bowing is bad try going to Japan and training in a Koryu Dojo, you have to watch everything you do, all your mannerisms etc.

I went to Japan for a hol a couple yrs back, and me and g/f went to the Aikido hombu dojo to take a look at training. In fairness to them they do let you into the hall to observe. We were told to sit at the back and kneel or sit cross legged (lotus). I've bad knees so cant really stay kneeling down for long, so mainly sat in lotus. About 10mins in one of the other guys came over to tell me I should be in the kneeling position only. He then went off to get "thrown around" by his partner. We gave it another minute, me in lotus still, and then got up and (respectfully) walked out. I mean, what a load of nonsense. I wasn't even doing the class, was just sitting down the back watching but because I wasn't kneeling I effectively got given out to!

The old man taking the class did look pretty cool though!!

Charlie3dan · 10-10-2008 10:07AM

I enjoy what I do and I believe in the benefits of it.
I never claimed to have the best system, best training method or anything of the sort.
These kind of claims seem to be the reserve of many of the other posters here.
Of course you can pic things apart (as I have done with the less formal structure) but really, we should look at the big picture. I have plenty to learn from other arts and styles and my mind is completely open to that. So acusing me of blind faith is insulting. If other people decide that theirs is the only way and close their mind off to everything because it doesn't satisfy their thirst for instant gratification, it doesn't concern me. I haven't attacked anyone's methods or championed my own.

Roper · 10-10-2008 10:10AM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Roper, I hear what you're saying about people getting perkier after taking some water and I do agree. As I said I do think water breaks are a good idea, just that people should go without one until absolutely necessary. It's evident now having discussed all this that my training mentality is still very traditional despite training mainly in MMA.

I don't mean to keep picking at this point, but why only let people drink when it's absolutely necessary. I could list paper after paper and journal after journal on the positive effects of continued hydration during exercise on performance, concentration, and injury prevention. Water should be taken on regularly and when the athlete needs it, not when it's water time for the coach, especially in hot conditions. Some younger guys you actually have to MAKE them drink more water during sessions.

I think you've hit upon a decent point though regarding your traditional mindset and the inherent problems of keeping "traditions" alive. Tradition in many cases is kept at the expense of a new idea. They rarely sit side by side. So to take your water break law as an example, how do you reconcile new evidence on hydration levels during exercise with the old ways of Instructor says no water until kata time? You can't, so something has to give and unfortunately, it's usually the new idea.

I don't mean to pick at your idea there and I'm not saying the above is what you meant, I'm just using it as an example to prove a broader point.

Charlie wrote:

Not at all, it's not for motivation and it's not to do with being a good coach. It's more to instill a team spirit, discipline, ettiquette etc. You can't just quit when it gets tough, you can't just do the stuff you like and leave out what ya don't and ya can't just pick who you wanna tackle and who you don't. You can't hide behind anyone in the line or avoid the guy that hits hard. Gaelic Football.

Charlie I just changed some words in the above to make a point. You feel passionate about training in MA and that is cool of course, but the things you are trying to instill can be done in many, many ways, not all of them good and correct of course but my point is that we could be talking about anything. There's nothing that makes Martial Arts beyond good modern training methods and scientific research into coaching, learning and physiology except for antiquated traditions.

Tim said that at best these things are harmless but I disagree. I think that once you retain some level of non-critical thinking (Why do we do this?) then you will find it very easy to justify any behaviour in the name of tradition (Because he says so).

Tim_Murphy · 10-10-2008 10:26AM

Of course you can pic things apart (as I have done with the less formal structure)

In fairness you haven't really picked it apart, you have just mentioned stuff you didn't like some of the less formal training you have done. Some of this is probably valid, some of it is what I'd expect to hear from a 'traditionalist', i.e. thinking that people should ask the instructor before having a drink of water, and wouldn't IMO be particularly valid.

These kind of claims seem to be the reserve of many of the other posters here.

Who here has made that claim?

If other people decide that theirs is the only way and close their mind off to everything because it doesn't satisfy their thirst for instant gratification, it doesn't concern me.

Who are you talking about here?

I haven't attacked anyone's methods or championed my own.

Personally at least, I don't see these discussions as being about attacking

Of course you can pic things apart (as I have done with the less formal structure)

In fairness you haven't really picked it apart, you have just mentioned stuff you didn't like some of the less formal training you have done. Some of this is probably valid, some of it is what I'd expect to hear from a 'traditionalist', i.e. thinking that people should ask the instructor before having a drink of water, and wouldn't IMO be particularly valid.

These kind of claims seem to be the reserve of many of the other posters here.

Who here has made that claim?

If other people decide that theirs is the only way and close their mind off to everything because it doesn't satisfy their thirst for instant gratification, it doesn't concern me.

Who are you talking about here?

I haven't attacked anyone's methods or championed my own.

Personally at least, I don't see these discussions as being about attacking or championing anything. I see them as a discussion about training methods, end of. I would say using lines in training is a poor training method, you obviously say different. Hence I’m interested as to why you think this. This is not meant as an attack on you or what you do.

Tim_Murphy · 10-10-2008 10:30AM

Tim said that at best these things are harmless but I disagree. I think that once you retain some level of non-critical thinking (Why do we do this?) then you will find it very easy to justify any behaviour in the name of tradition (Because he says so).

Agreed. I didn't say they are harmless, I said 'at best' they are harmless. I probably should have said they are at best mostly harmless.

Furious-Dave · 10-10-2008 10:55AM

Roper wrote: »

I don't mean to keep picking at this point, but why only let people drink when it's absolutely necessary. I could list paper after paper and journal after journal on the positive effects of continued hydration during exercise on performance, concentration, and injury prevention. Water should be taken on regularly and when the athlete needs it, not when it's water time for the coach, especially in hot conditions. Some younger guys you actually have to MAKE them drink more water during sessions.

Ok maybe I didn't explain properly. All I meant was that people will take water more often than they actually need, and in some class setups people going and routing in bags for their bottle can be a disruption. The water breaks aren't given only when the instructor needs it but rather as a moderation control. I believe thats it's important to control water intake, both when and how much. This control then will teach the body that you are in control of water not it, and so when you are a little dehydrated it won't panic. You still of course have to listen to your body, just not let it be in control. Does this make any sense? At all?

Charlie3dan · 10-10-2008 11:13AM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

In fairness you haven't really picked it apart, you have just mentioned stuff you didn't like some of the less formal training you have done. .

Ditto you of the formal training. Let's not get bogged down in terminology.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Some of this is probably valid, some of it is what I'd expect to hear from a 'traditionalist', i.e. thinking that people should ask the instructor before having a drink of water, and wouldn't IMO be particularly valid. .

I didn't get involved in the water thing. Certainly some of your criticisms are also valid and some of it is what I would expect to hear from a "non -traditionalist".

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Who here has made that claim?
.

Nobody has said that specifically, but people have certainly implied the surpieriority of their methods. And suggested that I have done the same, which I haven't.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Who are you talking about here?
.

Nobody specific. A broad sweeping generalisation.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Personally at least, I don't see these discussions as being about attacking
.

Described as Antiquated, backward, approached with a non-critical mindset. Terminology again Tim.

Many of the people that I have discussed this with here are posters that I find usually most insightful and informed. I did not mean for my previous post to be insulting to anyone. But similar to how many posters here will cause me to ask questions of myself, I am turning that mirror back outward.

Tim_Murphy · 10-10-2008 11:48AM

Ditto you of the formal training. Let's not get bogged down in terminology

If I remember correctly the reasons for line ups being poor training practise have been given by a few people.

Certainly some of your criticisms are also valid and some of it is what I would expect to hear from a "non -traditionalist".

I ‘non-traditionalist’ who has had years of ‘traditional’ training.

Nobody has said that specifically, but people have certainly implied the surpieriority of their methods. And suggested that I have done the same, which I haven't.

Well I’m not saying what I do is the best there is but I have no problem at all saying that what I do now is better than what we used to do in TKD when we spent hours in lines. The training methods I use now are superior, there is no question of that. The results speak for themselves.

Described as Antiquated, backward, approached with a non-critical mindset. Terminology again Tim.

For my money having people spending hours in lines is a little backward, it is certainly a little out of date as there simply are better ways to train. This is not a personal attack on anyone. It's not just naming calling because I am willing to explain why. If somebody wants to train like that because they enjoy it and they enjoy doing whatever traditional art it is, then more power to them, that’s great. But the fact remains that there are better training methods out there that will give better results. If somebody has been doing something for a long time then it is natural that they will have a strong attachment to it.

The fact is if you look at the whole martial arts world there is a lot of BS. There’s a lot of weird stuff out there, there’s a lot of out of date training methods. You tend to see a lot of this in ‘traditional’ arts but I’ve seen it to some extent in some BJJ clubs too for example.

I did not mean for my previous post to be insulting to anyone.

I would doubt anybody found them insulting.

But similar to how many posters here will cause me to ask questions of myself, I am turning that mirror back outward.

Cool

Baggio... · 10-10-2008 11:54AM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

All I meant was that people will take water more often than they actually need, and in some class setups people going and routing in bags for their bottle can be a disruption.

Well, how can you gauge what each individual needs? Some people need to hydrate more than others - water should not be rationed in any physical class.

When I'm over training in Southampton we often go to the water bottles, or eat nuts or fruit (a 6 hour seminar is along day). But we all respect Lee our instructor, by that I mean if we we grab a quick drink we do it quietly as possible - while still listening intently.

Wheres the harm in that? The only harm I see is to a insecure instructor's ego who likes to boss his students around. And I met many of them in the past.

If that's what your into fair enough.... Enjoy your training, but it's not for me or anyone that joins my class.

TKD SC · 10-10-2008 12:05PM

Just a point re lines, tradition & training methods - an obvious enough one, but could be important to state it:

On talking about "lines" as being antiquated training methods, are we confusing "lines" with patterns, kata, fundamental movements up & down a hall etc? I.e., is that what we are really talking about when saying that training in lines is a poor training method. Are we really talking about the type of training primarily done in lines, that of patterns and fundamental movements against those tricky imaginary oponents?

Also, to avoid confusion, in some "traditional" MA's whereby perhaps the bulk / rest / some of training is not done in lines: ie., sparring, pad work, bag work, various drills, etc etc which I would hope isn't antiquated or bad training methodology. It would be actually quite similar to boxing / mma training but yet trained within a "traditional" art.

Basically I think when we talk of lines and tradition and bad training methods we are primarily thinking of the patterns and fundamental movements training that are done in these lines, as opposed to all the other type of training that may or may not go on in said "traditional" MA. Hope that makes sense!!

Furious-Dave · 10-10-2008 12:14PM

If someone clearly needs water well then by all means they should have some. The point i was trying to make was that an instructor, IMO, should also teach the students how to control water in take. I've both experienced it and seen it in others during training that proper hydration throughout the day before training and controlled drinking during training, i.e. a few small sips not too often, leads to better performance.

Roper · 10-10-2008 01:18PM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Ok maybe I didn't explain properly. All I meant was that people will take water more often than they actually need, and in some class setups people going and routing in bags for their bottle can be a disruption. The water breaks aren't given only when the instructor needs it but rather as a moderation control. I believe thats it's important to control water intake, both when and how much. This control then will teach the body that you are in control of water not it, and so when you are a little dehydrated it won't panic. You still of course have to listen to your body, just not let it be in control. Does this make any sense? At all?

One of two things is happening here, I'm either really, really confused as to your meaning or you're talking about "self control" extending to how dehydrated you can let yourself get.

If it's the former then can you explain a bit more about what you mean when you say "This control then will teach the body that you are in control of water not it, and so when you are a little dehydrated it won't panic." That, to be frank and if I'm understanding it, is a bizarre notion. The idea that your body "panics" when it's dehydrated? The symptoms of dehydration are decreased performance, lack of concentration and at extreme levels, incoherence, but panic? Usually, the person is totally unaware that they're dehydrated. Where are you getting the idea that the symptoms of dehydration are something that your body can control?

Like it or not, no teaching can let you control the chemical processes in your body. I'll try not to use the word bizarre again. We're talking about water here. What possible benefit can an athlete gain from being dehydrated? Some notion of being "tougher" maybe? I take the point about disrupting session by rooting in bags but in my classes that's solved pretty simply by everyone bringing their water close to the mat.

Furious-Dave · 10-10-2008 01:52PM

Panic just seemed the appropriate word to use at the time. Being dehydrated is obviously never ok, but what I was trying to say is if you control your intake of water than the body will handle being slightly dehydrated better as it becomes used to the pattern of intake, and the body prefers distinctive patterns. Also, the instinct of most people, more so with inexperienced people, is to start gulping their water. Too much water will cause bloating which is bad for training. This is why I believe in the instructor should give permission to take water, for beginners more so as experienced students and fighters should be able to control their own intake. This any better?

Added: Maybe my belief in the instructors control on drinking stems from my trad mentality and the fact that I believe a lot of people, particularly beginners to sports and especially in Martial Arts (more traditional clubs than combat sports), don't know how to hydrate properly.

Roper · 10-10-2008 02:31PM

So your solution to not allowing them to hydrate is to make them humiliate themselves by asking some guy's premission before they can drink a bit of water? Can I still assume that we're talking about adults here?

Sorry, we're poles apart. You're confusing proper hydration with subjugation.

EDIT: The body might prefer distinctive patterns but it there are too many variables. How does an instructor know how hydrated his athletes are? Do you pee test them before they come in and decide then? Mental. Your body sends messages. I'm hungry, feed me. I'm low on fluid, drink. That hurts, stop doing it please.

Furious-Dave · 10-10-2008 03:23PM

Roper wrote: »

So your solution to not allowing them to hydrate is to make them humiliate themselves by asking some guy's premission before they can drink a bit of water? Can I still assume that we're talking about adults here?

Sorry, we're poles apart. You're confusing proper hydration with subjugation.

EDIT: The body might prefer distinctive patterns but it there are too many variables. How does an instructor know how hydrated his athletes are? Do you pee test them before they come in and decide then? Mental. Your body sends messages. I'm hungry, feed me. I'm low on fluid, drink. That hurts, stop doing it please.

It's not that people are going "please sir may I get some water sir". I did say that it was more for beginners to help them learn to control their water intake, as from experience I know they will drink more than they should - gulps instead of sips, and that experienced students should know themselves what they need to drink and when.

Roper wrote: »

You're confusing proper hydration with subjugation.

How do you imagine that? Just because I'm more of a traditional Martial Artist and I'm talking about the instructor saying when people can get some water it doesn't automatically mean subjugation.

buck65 · 10-10-2008 03:51PM

Just off topic here but nonetheless - SPARRING

How much time do you guys give over to sparring per lesson - we usually finish the class with 3/4 rounds of sparring. Does anyone (apart from BJJ , Judo where I suppose it's all randori based) do full classes of sparring.

And also do you ever get used to it? - I always have butterflies when putting on the pads and dread it a bit but once its on its on.

yomchi · 10-10-2008 04:12PM

Sure do. How can you work on tactics, drills, footwork, counter and offensive movements and conditioing at the end of a class?

buck65 · 10-10-2008 04:21PM

Sorry Jon, I don't understand your post please explain tks

Pride Fighter · 10-10-2008 04:55PM

buck65 wrote: »

Sorry Jon, I don't understand your post please explain tks

I think he means that it makes more sense to do it near the beginning of a class, that way people are less fatigued and would be near their peak performance.

ColinJennings · 10-10-2008 09:36PM

I think it is more fundamental than that. I thought he was asking how you can learn to spar properly with just 3 rounds of sparring thrown in more as an afterthought, than as part of what you learned that day.

yomchi · 10-10-2008 10:29PM

Does anyone (apart from BJJ , Judo where I suppose it's all randori based) do full classes of sparring

Sure do.

we usually finish the class with 3/4 rounds of sparring

How can you work on tactics, drills, footwork, counter and offensive movements and conditioning at the end of a class?

Roper · 11-10-2008 03:08PM

Dave,
You've contradicted yourself about ten times, you've changed your point saying "obviously I didn't mean that", so to be frank, it's impossible to have this debate.

Maybe you're coming across badly, I dunno but I think it's safe to say that our attitudes are poles apart. The difference, i think, is that you said we weren't going to change each others mind, but that's not true from my side. If you gave me a good enough reason for all of that, then I would change my mind. I suppose that's thee difference between being traditional and forward thinking.

Bisto luck,
Barry

taekwondo?

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