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taekwondo?

124

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    I don't see how I've proved your point.

    And if something is being demonstrated , as I've said, we'll make sure everyone can see. There's no problem coming up to get a better look as long as you aren't blocking anyone's view.

    I can remember a black belt knocking me around in karate when I was a white belt.
    I can remember a Muay Thai fighter not holding the pads when it was his turn cos he fancied a sit down (and a chat with another guy who was already having a chill out for himself). I still have an open mind about my own training and other people's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    I don't see how I've proved your point.

    And if something is being demonstrated , as I've said, we'll make sure everyone can see. There's no problem coming up to get a better look as long as you aren't blocking anyone's view.

    I can remember a black belt knocking me around in karate when I was a white belt.
    I can remember a Muay Thai fighter not holding the pads when it was his turn cos he fancied a sit down (and a chat with another guy who was already having a chill out for himself). I still have an open mind about my own training and other people's.

    Well it certainly sounds like you're trying to promote a very severe discipline structure to deal with normal issues that are better fixed by cop on and common sense. You give the demonstration as an example, "arranging ourselves in lines makes sure every can see. If you let people stand where they want they'll stand in front of other people." I find it's very rare for someone to be so stupid or self-absorbed that they actually think they're a pane of glass, if someone pops in front of me and blocks my view at a seminar i'll tell them to get out of my way.

    Also with that "people sitting down when they want, didn't hold the pads" if there were people like that in my gym I'd quickly abandon them as training partners. If you're genuinely tired I don't mind people taking a break, if they're just being lazy it's really their own business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    Taking water is a safety thing to. Also if your training for a sport and you drink water between rounds then taking a drink between rounds in training will help your body know when its time to relax in the actual fight. It will make conditions simular in training to the fight.

    If your training for self defence and you want to get used to dry mouth then no water. But if a student looks like they re about to faint give them water.

    If people are taking water to dodge training then let them, they wasting their own time and money. Just avoid them as a partner next time.

    I cant speak for tkd or chinese martial arts but in Japan the line up can be a formal power trip for higher ranks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    If your thirsty you should drink water, even if you drank plenty of water throughout the day you can still become thirsty quick!

    adults having to ask to get water is ridiculus and goes back to the ego driven trainers, or ego driven arts, if 1 of my fighters was taking water breaks just to get a rest i'd no it and have a word, if there thirsty then i'd expect them to rehydrate.

    this is why people are becoming less tolerant of the traditional style martial arts, we're not in asia 2000 years ago and training for wars etc..

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    I'm not saying that there should be no drinking of water at all in training, just that in terms of hydration drinking during training is too late. And I do agree with the points both ryoishin and cowserp made, it's just that I know that people will drinking more often than they actually need, and more than they need. I stand by my opinion that people, regardless of age, should ask for permission. This is not an ego thing at all. I find it highly insulting to the instructor when people decide to step off the mat and take a drink just because they feel a little thirsty. This used to happen a lot in the Kenpo club I trained in. People forget that a lot of instructors actually have families and are giving up their personal time to be there to run the training. If the instructor is demonstrating a technique and you have your water bottle close to hand, well then fair enough, but people going off the mat and routing in their bags is out of the question.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Clive


    At BTT they line up by rank in gi classes ... :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    before you all get carried away by black belts--it is a japanese standard adapted by martial arts in other countrys -in japan you can get a black belt in swimming--


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    Yep they do the same in chute box but i dont think theres an order its just so everyone can hug and high 5, the same way in Japan so everyone can bow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Well it certainly sounds like you're trying to promote a very severe discipline structure to deal with normal issues that are better fixed by cop on and common sense. You give the demonstration as an example, "arranging ourselves in lines makes sure every can see. If you let people stand where they want they'll stand in front of other people." I find it's very rare for someone to be so stupid or self-absorbed that they actually think they're a pane of glass, if someone pops in front of me and blocks my view at a seminar i'll tell them to get out of my way.



    Those comments were from another poster.

    In any case, it's more about the instructor being able to see everyone. But again, the line up is one aspect of the formal structure.

    Also with that "people sitting down when they want, didn't hold the pads" if there were people like that in my gym I'd quickly abandon them as training partners. If you're genuinely tired I don't mind people taking a break, if they're just being lazy it's really their own business.

    So you'd abandon them as training partners. Ok that's your approach. Best a' luck hope it works well for you. The formal structure discourages the behaviour in the first place. Or you'd allow people to be lazy. Well that's lazy in itself (if you are the coach)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    I stand by my opinion that people, regardless of age, should ask for permission. This is not an ego thing at all. I find it highly insulting to the instructor when people decide to step off the mat and take a drink just because they feel a little thirsty.

    I'd be more insulted if someone "asked" me for permission for a drink in the first place in my class. It's a ridiculous and backward notion...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Baggio... wrote: »
    I'd be more insulted if someone "asked" me for permission for a drink in the first place in my class. It's a ridiculous and backward notion...

    Well what I meant was if the instructor is talking, or there's drilling going on then you either pay attention or do the drill. I suppose it depends on the instructor and how they run the class. In Kokoro we're pretty much on the go from start to finish. The only "breaks" we get are when Shane is demonstrating something or when we have a full class and we're waiting to get a chance to spar - back to my comment about having your water bottle close to hand.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Perhaps not OTT but definitely unnecessary.
    It's not difficult to make sure you're drinking enough water. Most people just don't think of it. But granted there are going to be occasions where people just can't get enough water into them. During training is too late though, so water breaks are more of a mental thing. Probably also helps cool the body.
    Agreed it is unnnecessary. If a guy kicked me in a class for not having a line straight behind me I would walk out I wouldn't care who he was. If someone felt that they needed to be "disciplined" like that I'd refer them to a young lady of my acquaintance who does it for a very reasonable price, with a happy ending too.

    I don't know where you got that about water. In a 2 and 1/2 hour training session do you think your thirst is psychosomatic? Why do you think footballers are constantly at water bottles throughout their 90 minutes? The body responds almost immediately to rehydration. For evidence, watch someone who has been weight cutting and feeling dozy, give them a drink and within a couple of minutes they're perkier.
    Charlie wrote:
    I don't see how I've proved your point.

    And if something is being demonstrated , as I've said, we'll make sure everyone can see. There's no problem coming up to get a better look as long as you aren't blocking anyone's view.

    I can remember a black belt knocking me around in karate when I was a white belt.
    I can remember a Muay Thai fighter not holding the pads when it was his turn cos he fancied a sit down (and a chat with another guy who was already having a chill out for himself). I still have an open mind about my own training and other people's.
    I can also think of about 100 instances that would make a great show; "when a55holes attack", but that doesn't mean anything about coaching, it just means they were a55holes. If you need rigid lines to get people motivated or to have them train properly then you have a discipline problem, you're not motivating your class properly or you're stuck in the past.
    Baggio wrote:
    I'd be more insulted if someone "asked" me for permission for a drink in the first place in my class. It's a ridiculous and backward notion...
    It would be awful weird if one of my guys asked me for permission to drink. An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas would be next I suppose. I trust them to know when to drink, when to listen, when to train. If someone walks off to get a drink when something is being explained it would be to their detriment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    The only time i get annoyed is when im teaching a move and people start to talk between them that should be watching, you can continue to listen while getting water, im not the lads daddy so they dont ask for permission to drink, they do sometimes to go the jacks but i dont ask for that!

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Roper wrote: »
    An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas would be next I suppose. I trust them to know when to drink, when to listen, when to train. If someone walks off to get a drink when something is being explained it would be to their detriment.

    Ha. That's exactly it!. :D Haven't heard that in a while...

    I remember a good mate of mine getting a right bollocking in front of the class for having an untidy Karate suit. Where does it end?
    cowzerp wrote: »
    The only time i get annoyed is when im teaching a move and people start to talk between them that should be watching

    That's fair enough mate....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Roper wrote: »
    I can also think of about 100 instances that would make a great show; "when a55holes attack", but that doesn't mean anything about coaching, it just means they were a55holes.

    Agreed. You gave a "quick example" in your post before that. My examples were just to show you can't be too influenced by once off instances you hear about.

    Roper wrote: »
    If you need rigid lines to get people motivated or to have them train properly then you have a discipline problem, you're not motivating your class properly or you're stuck in the past.

    Not at all, it's not for motivation and it's not to do with being a good coach. It's more to instill a fighting spirit, discipline, ettiquette etc. You can't just quit when it gets tough, you can't just do the stuff you like and leave out what ya don't and ya can't just pick who you wanna spar with and who you don't. You can't hide behind anyone in the line or avoid the guy that hits hard. Martial arts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Ye I don't agree with the whole perfectly white gi nonsense. Ok if theres an occasion or a competition it's nice to have a clean gi but for general training, no way. My gi's were permanently dirty after Croatia and I still wore them to training.
    Roper, I hear what you're saying about people getting perkier after taking some water and I do agree. As I said I do think water breaks are a good idea, just that people should go without one until absolutely necessary. It's evident now having discussed all this that my training mentality is still very traditional despite training mainly in MMA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    You can't just quit when it gets tough, you can't just do the stuff you like and leave out what ya don't and ya can't just pick who you wanna spar with and who you don't. You can't hide behind anyone in the line or avoid the guy that hits hard. Martial arts.

    Can't say I know anyone that does this - were all there to train hard. If you see people trying to avoid some tough training there is something definitely a miss in your class :confused:

    A good coach or teacher gets the respect he deserves - not through fear, discipline, or treating people like children. People are naturally motivated by great instructors.

    Just on installing the correct etiquette? Who gets to say what is right and wrong anyway? Someone who wears a black belt, or has a fifth degree? Means absolutely nothing too me I'm afraid. Think I wore my Black belt twice - I can't even find it now. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Baggio... wrote: »
    Can't say I know anyone that does this - were all there to train hard. If you see people trying to avoid some tough training there is something definitely a miss in your class :confused:

    The problem is a lot of people have different ideas of what "hard" training is. I've seen this first hand when people first try Kyokushin. Now, I'm not saying that Kyokushin is the best or anything, there are obvious weaknesses, it's just that the training can get very tough and is often an eye-opener to a lot of people, even those who have trained in other combat sports. Kyokushin usually have a retention ratio of 1:10, or thereabouts. Though I suppose part of that would be people not liking the whole tradition element also.
    Baggio... wrote: »
    A good coach or teacher gets the respect he deserves - not through fear, discipline, or treating people like children. People are naturally motivated by great instructors.

    The discipline is not about creating good obedient students but rather self discipline. Being in control of every movement you make etc.
    Baggio... wrote: »
    Just on installing the correct etiquette? Who gets to say what is right and wrong anyway? Someone who wears a black belt, or has a fifth degree? Means absolutely nothing too me I'm afraid. Think I wore my Black belt twice - I can't even find it now. :)

    Only people with severe egos would think that their way was the "correct" way. Every instructor has their own methods, both for training methods and etiquette etc. If you like them then stay, if you don't then move on, there's no harm done.
    I have to say that Black Belts do mean something to me, but really only in styles like Kyokushin, Judo, BJJ etc where you know the person have to work extremely hard to get to their level. For example, one of the Black Belts at the Croatia camp chose to do a 50 man Kumite to get his 5th dan. Thats nuts as he didn't have to do it, he could have done less.
    Ropers and my training mentalities clearly differ. He obviously has more experience, but neither of our opinions effects the way the other trains. And saying that I realize once again that debating on things like this usually becomes utterly pointless, though I do enjoy it :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Good post furious dave. I'll just add what I had started writing:

    I'm not talking about guys trying to avoid tough training. I'm talking about not giving up or copping out. Everyone feels like doing it sometimes in training. And yes, if the class doesn't have a formal structure in my experience people can coast their way through a class and nobody bats an eyelid

    Absolutely, A good coach or teacher gets the respect he deserves. Absolutely, People are naturally motivated by great instructors. Again, I said it wasn't for motivation. It's not so people will pay attention or give respect or be motivated. It's to build fighting spirit, discipline, ettiquette bla bla bla etc etc.


    Installing dojo ettiquette. Can be carried into real life or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Installing dojo ettiquette. Can be carried into real life or not.

    Hmm... I've seen a lot of bad Dojo etiquette in my time, so again, that means absolutely 'nout to me...
    The discipline is not about creating good obedient students but rather self discipline. Being in control of every movement you make etc.

    Well, I think you can get self-discipline with a well motivated student. No need for the rod, in my opinion.

    One thing I would like to take up on what F.D. said. I was slightly incorrect before, and I'd agree in part with what he said. I do also have respect for certain B.B.'s - such as Judo and BJJ. As I know it's not something they throw around easily, and you've got to work exceptionally hard to get. Respect and fair play to those guys...

    I was more referring to certain schools that hand them out like sweeties to well behaved children.
    even those who have trained in other combat sports..

    Well, those lads train very hard... I mean just look at M.T.,Boxing & MMA. I'm not into the sports side of training at all, but I have a shedload of respect for the training and conditioning they do.

    I'm sure they train ever bit as hard as yourself.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭Dancor


    Folks the OP was a troll, Although he is now banned, he has been well and truely fed from this thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    I think we all knew that, but it was hijacked as a place to have a chat about TKD, and before ya know it here we are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    to many martial arts instructors -have got it wrong-go into training with respect -yes-but remember you are not training people for war to most of them its self defence[and in my experience]that goes out of the window in a real situation . the rest just for fun or fitness--i am now 68 and i still train in karate --after43years in the sport -if i had trained like most of you seem to i would now have injury problems like all the idiots who are my age who started the same time as me my tip ;; dont over do it .respect and enjoy,and may be you also can enjoy it when you are on your pension


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    Are we talking about 2 kinds of lining up.

    One at the start and the other lines for katas etc.

    I agree that the respect stuff carries over into other aspects of your life but like anything else it can go to far aswell. Alot of this stuff comes from the culture the art came from. If you do karate you have to buy into the Japanese aspects of it. But thats if you want to do karate and Budo and all that in the fuller sense of the art. (only using Karate as an example).

    If you think bowing is bad try going to Japan and training in a Koryu Dojo, you have to watch everything you do, all your mannerisms etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Every instructor has their own methods, both for training methods and etiquette etc. If you like them then stay, if you don't then move on, there's no harm done.

    That's very true... You can always keep moving until you find the right place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Baggio... wrote: »
    Well, those lads train very hard... I mean just look at M.T.,Boxing & MMA. I'm not into the sports side of training at all, but I have a shedload of respect for the training and conditioning they do.

    I'm sure they train ever bit as hard as yourself.

    I don't mean to imply that they don't train hard nor do I intend any offense to anyone who trains in other combat sports. I'm merely commenting on individuals from other styles. Kyokushin really pushes people to their limit. Sometimes a lot further than they need to go to be good at the sport. Theres a 'don't stop till you pass out' mentality and I've often seen people run to the toilets to puke. This doesn't happen in Kokoro anymore as we only do Kyokushin one night a week.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    You can't just quit when it gets tough, you can't just do the stuff you like and leave out what ya don't and ya can't just pick who you wanna spar with and who you don't. You can't hide behind anyone in the line or avoid the guy that hits hard. Martial arts.

    Again, while I think this sounds good I don't agree with it. I don't really have a problem with a la carte martial artists. for example, some people in judo try and avoid the ground fighting as much as possible, doesn't bother me, same with the bjj guys who don't want anything to do with clinch. I try and avoid all kata training myself even though it's an element of judo.

    again, sometimes I roll with the guy nearest to me but on some occassions i seek guys out. If i want to practice something new I'll grab the new guy, if I want to test my guard passing I'll pick the guy with the best guard to roll with, if I want a hard roll I'll pick the big strong aggressive guy.

    I don't support the idea that we should turn up for martial arts clas, close our eyes and turn off our minds and just do what ever the guy at the top tells us to do. not my style, not my cup of tea.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭john kavanagh


    sciencevsfaith1.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 859 ✭✭✭BobbyOLeary


    Again, while I think this sounds good I don't agree with it. I don't really have a problem with a la carte martial artists. for example, some people in judo try and avoid the ground fighting as much as possible, doesn't bother me, same with the bjj guys who don't want anything to do with clinch. I try and avoid all kata training myself even though it's an element of judo.

    Good point. I'm an a la carte martial artist too. I truly despise the clinch when I train BJJ and avoid it at all costs. That said I absolutely adore groundfighting. So I only train groundfighting. Is this wrong? Maybe in terms of me getting a BJJ blue belt but not in terms of my enjoyment twice a week.

    Nice pic JK, not enough people actually understand the scientific method. That said, if people want to train in traditional martial arts (myself included, Kenpo is where its at) and they enjoy this then leave them off. I realise the training method is flawed and a kata isn't going to make me a good fighter but I come out of the class smiling so honestly, I don't care.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭john kavanagh


    I realise the training method is flawed and a kata isn't going to make me a good fighter but I come out of the class smiling so honestly, I don't care.

    that should be everybody's only motivation for training - because its fun, it's certainly mine.
    but of course its a whole different thing to realise a training method is flawed and continue training that way for fun...than to not realise and carry on that way...and worse still pass it on.


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