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taekwondo?

135

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Tim Murphy vs. Anonymous Jimkel in a "real" fight. I say make it happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Jon wrote: »
    The whole line up thing is antiquated, and stems from the military history which really pays no dividends these days.

    oh god no!

    for some people it's the only reason to go training!

    when i teach adults i get them to gather in pairs and all move together when there is something that needs to be shown to the group.

    standing in rows is if you have loads of people doing set formations like patterns or similar drills.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    The purpose of standing in rows, to my knowledge, is that the beginners on the back row can watch how the next grade up are doing things, people of that grade then are watching the people in front of them and so on. It probably does originate in Asian military. The only problem I see with it is in crap Dojos where the people of a higher grade aren't necessarily better technically than the people a grade below them. And so, as with lots of other things from traditional systems, it's only of benefit in styles like Kyokushin, I'd imagine Tae Kwon Do, real Okinawan Karate etc, where the next grade is better because if they weren't they wouldn't have their grade.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    What a load of me hole. The man at the top of the class is the coach and the person the beginners should be looking at not someones arse in front of them.

    "The lines" are a way to make people feel important. Yay I've a blue belt now I can stand further up the class than yesterday and you have to stand behind me. I remember one of the first classes I took without "fixing the lines" first, the "high grades" almost crapped themselves it was like I'd told them to stand on their hands! It's antiquated, it's power trip and it should have been gone long ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Another load of me hole roper. That has feck all to do with the line up. If some people treat it that way then obviously they are gob****es. But just because you don't see benefit in it doesn't mean it doesn't have any value.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    What a load of me hole. The man at the top of the class is the coach and the person the beginners should be looking at not someones arse in front of them.

    "The lines" are a way to make people feel important. Yay I've a blue belt now I can stand further up the class than yesterday and you have to stand behind me. I remember one of the first classes I took without "fixing the lines" first, the "high grades" almost crapped themselves it was like I'd told them to stand on their hands! It's antiquated, it's power trip and it should have been gone long ago.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I much prefer how MMA classes are run. But the whole "watch the guy in front" thing is a reason for the lines. And in Kyokushin and similar styles, it's part of the whole self discipline thing. A lot of people go overboard with it of course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Another load of me hole roper. That has feck all to do with the line up. If some people treat it that way then obviously they are gob****es. But just because you don't see benefit in it doesn't mean it doesn't have any value.

    Care to enlighten us as to the value of it so?

    As is the case of a lot of 'traditional' martial arts stuff, at best it's harmless. The simple fact is that there are smarter ways to train.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Another load of me hole roper. That has feck all to do with the line up. If some people treat it that way then obviously they are gob****es. But just because you don't see benefit in it doesn't mean it doesn't have any value.

    Agreed it depends on the people, but if you're predisposed to having a bit of an ego problem (and most of us are at some stage) then it sucks.

    If you can tell me a benefit of lining up over a properly coached and structured training session then fire away.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    Has nt the line up got to do with the most trusted students (the longest there) being the closest to the teacher so any assasins (yes yes I know) would have to work there way through the other students to get to the teacher!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    ryoishin wrote: »
    Has nt the line up got to do with the most trusted students (the longest there) being the closest to the teacher so any assasins (yes yes I know) would have to work there way through the other students to get to the teacher!
    DEADLY! I stand corrected there IS a good reason!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    LMAO this is great, like the good old ITF Online days.

    I train with a bunch of black belts twice a week, 2 of them 6th degrees, a few 5ths and then the rest of us. One of the 6th degrees was one of the first black belts in TKD in Ireland. We don't even wear our belts, line up or anything. Why? Because we're all interested in competing and learning the skill. The main coach there has a hoooge amount of competive skill and knowledge and we train, drill and spar both WTF and ITF systems.

    Get with it, the main purpose of a class is to LEARN, LEARN LEARN, LEARN... skill above all else.
    Lining kids up is just a good way of seperating them and dealing with them individually, beginners are at the front in my classes, BUT i'll be changing that now I know about this assassin business....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Roper wrote: »
    If you can tell me a benefit of lining up over a properly coached and structured training session then fire away.


    It's one approach to acheiving a properly coached and structured training session. If you don't think it works fair enoughski, but just stating it's useless based on something that's totally incorrect is "a load of me hole".

    Tim, it's main value is simply having a structure in the class.
    Even if you don't have strict guidlines in your class, there's got to be stuff that is the done thing and stuff that are no no's. The Traditional line up is just more formal. You may think there are better structures, fair enough. I'm not trying to convert anyone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    It's one approach to acheiving a properly coached and structured training session. If you don't think it works fair enoughski, but just stating it's useless based on something that's totally incorrect is "a load of me hole".
    Coaching 101 for demonstrating anything is addressing the class and asking "Can everyone see?" The most important people in the class to see correct technique are the newcomers as you're showing new movements. If they can't see you because of some antiquated idea of their place in the class then you have failed as a coach.

    You can talk around it and regressively come up with reasons for why you do it all you want but ultimately the reason most people do it is because that is the way it has always been done. That's the way they were taught, thats the way their coaches were taught and damn it that's the way they're going to teach too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Roper wrote: »
    The most important people in the class to see correct technique are the newcomers as you're showing new movements.

    Yea agreed. Nobody's hindering the newcomers learning. If the level that's being taught is beginner they are often allowed to the front, or the instructor may move down the line so to demonstrate and watch them or the classes are split by skill.
    But at the end of the class you go back to a formal line up.

    Roper wrote: »
    You can talk around it and regressively come up with reasons for why you do it all you want but ultimately the reason most people do it is because that is the way it has always been done. That's the way they were taught, thats the way their coaches were taught and damn it that's the way they're going to teach too.

    You can put down what other people do all you want, but ultimately it doesn't mean that what you do is any better.
    Again, just because you don't see the benefit (or don't fully understand how it works) is not reason enough to dismiss it completely.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    Charlie you still have not given a reason why it is usefull, just repeating that because it was done before means that there must be some merit to it makes no sense.

    The instructor "may" move down the line is not as good as the instructor definitely being right in front of them making it easier to see.

    Adding structure to a class for structures sake does not seem like a valid reason to justify something. You could demand that every class begins with every student singing "hit me baby one more time" and after weeks it would be reinforced structure but that is not going to help them kick or punch any better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    You can put down what other people do all you want, but ultimately it doesn't mean that what you do is any better.
    Again, just because you don't see the benefit (or don't fully understand how it works) is not reason enough to dismiss it completely.

    I trained that way for ten years and taught that way for three. If I didn't understand it at this stage then I'd be the world's slowest learner.

    And yes, I do dismiss it completely on the basis that there are better ways. Don't take my word for it read any book on coaching.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    agreed with roper, its obvious. Outdated training practices are here to stay.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    As Barry point out before I got the chance to (:mad: ) this is another example of people rationalising after the fact, you come across it a lot in martial arts. We do it this way so lets come with reasons why we do. People do with step sparring, kata etc all the time as well.
    Tim, it's main value is simply having a structure in the class
    There's plenty of other ways to have structure in a class. That alone is not a reason to do it. I've heard that 'you have to have structure' argument used to justify all sorts of things, it's a good catch all reason.
    Even if you don't have strict guidlines in your class, there's got to be stuff that is the done thing and stuff that are no no's. The Traditional line up is just more formal. You may think there are better structures, fair enough. I'm not trying to convert anyone.
    Nobody is asking you to try to convert them, just to explain to us why is it good and/or useful, which you haven't really done. Like Barry, I trained using line for years and taught that way myself for 4 years, so I do know what it is about. I've yet to meet anyone who taught that way for another other reason than that's the way they were taught and that was just how it was done in their martial art. That should tell us something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭TKD SC


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    People do with step sparring, kata etc all the time as well.

    Can we have a step sparring and kata debate next?! :p

    My 2 cent for what it's worth is that I've trained for years in the line up method - sometimes it does annoy me, especially in a big seminar where there's so much cafuffle (great word! I had to google the spelling tho!) about lining up and people switching and who goes where that it takes about 10mins! That does irritate me, especially the "god like" higher dans!

    Generally in my regular classes though it's just a quick way to get things started, we all know eachother, we line up quick, no egos, bow and get on with the real training then. It doesn't bother me and I don't think too much about it.
    Similar to what Jon said above,in squad training we don't bother lining up, bowing or wearing belts half the time, just straight into it. I probably prefer this way, but if it's a good class / training session then it's a good training session and that's the most important thing, regardless of whether there's a minute or two of lining up or not.
    I enjoy the mma / bjj way too, but if I went to say Barry's class and he made us all line up that wouldn't stop me going, cos it's still a good training session. If I went to some other class where they didnt line up, but the training was crap then I'd obviously prefer a place where you line up and get good training. Long winded way of saying I don't really care either way, once the training / class is good, good atmosphere, you learn, get better, get motivated, improve etc etc then that's the most important thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Mikaboshi, I don't know what you are looking at but you obviously haven't read my posts.

    Roper, you can dismiss it because you feel there are better ways. What I was addressing was you dismissing it based on something that was totally incorrect. Also calling another poster's comments "a load of me hole" based on that incorrect statement. I have no doubt you understand the method, but what you were saying in your posts certainly didn't reflect it.

    Tim, absolutely there are plenty of ways to have structure. I'm not saying "my way is better than your way", I'm saying don't dismiss it based on an incorrect assumption.

    Lining up in order of grade is only one aspect of the formal structure. I wasn't trying to get everyone to agree with the formal method but I can certainly give you some reasons why it works for me.
    I have been to lots of less formally structured classes and sure, the training gets done. But I didn’t like seeing guys sitting down for a break when they felt like it, walking on and off the floor anytime they wanted cos they decided it’s time for a water break, crowding around the instructor to get a better view. Doing an excersize (or whatever) and then casually strolling back to the end of the line. At times even seeing guys doing their own thing in the corner while the rest of the class did something else.

    Agreed, there are other ways to stop that kind of behaviour, but the formal structure doesn't leave any ambiguity. Everyone knows where they should be, what they should be doing etc.

    Anyone who read my posts and somehow came up with me saying "we do it cos it's always been done that way", you seem to be making assumptions based on your experiences. But you won't find that in my posts.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Roper, you can dismiss it because you feel there are better ways. What I was addressing was you dismissing it based on something that was totally incorrect. Also calling another poster's comments "a load of me hole" based on that incorrect statement. I have no doubt you understand the method, but what you were saying in your posts certainly didn't reflect it.
    The "load of me hole" was regarding people stating that it was better for beginners to watch the people in front of them. I stand by my hole on that one.
    I have been to lots of less formally structured classes and sure, the training gets done. But I didn’t like seeing guys sitting down for a break when they felt like it, walking on and off the floor anytime they wanted cos they decided it’s time for a water break, crowding around the instructor to get a better view. Doing an excersize (or whatever) and then casually strolling back to the end of the line. At times even seeing guys doing their own thing in the corner while the rest of the class did something else.
    That just sounds like a badly coached class. As for crowding round so they can get a better view, I'd sooner have 30 guys doing that than 5 guys at the front seeing everything and the poor sods down the back having to get the chinese whisper version as it passes down the line.

    Who says everyone has to be doing the same thing at the one time? I doubt Paul O'Connell and Peter Stringer are in training right now going through the same things, copying each other because they are two different body types and will have two different 'games' to each other.

    I've been in traditional classes and of anything the behaviours you're describing (which are just human!) were more rampant in that setting than in the classes I've seen in sports settings. The lines and unified shouting can lask all kinds of laziness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Roper wrote: »
    The "load of me hole" was regarding people stating that it was better for beginners to watch the people in front of them. I stand by my hole on that one. .

    :D
    But you also gave what you thought it was about. and it was way off.
    Roper wrote: »
    That just sounds like a badly coached class. As for crowding round so they can get a better view, I'd sooner have 30 guys doing that than 5 guys at the front seeing everything and the poor sods down the back having to get the chinese whisper version as it passes down the line..

    Again Roper, what your posting doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. If the instructor is demonstrating, we might clear the floor, the front rows might kneel down. Whatever. At no time is anyone missing whats going on. But when we start practising, we're back in line.
    Roper wrote: »
    Who says everyone has to be doing the same thing at the one time? I doubt Paul O'Connell and Peter Stringer are in training right now going through the same things, copying each other because they are two different body types and will have two different 'games' to each other.

    Nobody said that. And training for different positions on a rugby pitch is not a good comparision in any case. But doing whatever the feck you wanna do isn't ok. If you are doing conditioning in a class, do you let people give up when they are tired or does everyone do the same?
    Roper wrote: »
    I've been in traditional classes and of anything the behaviours you're describing (which are just human!) were more rampant in that setting than in the classes I've seen in sports settings. The lines and unified shouting can lask all kinds of laziness.

    I don't doubt you've had negative experiences in traditional classes. The fact that I've had bad experiences in less formal classes, doesn't make them all bad.
    Yes the behaviour is just human, discipline isn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Can we have a step sparring and kata debate next?!
    Only if you find an archive of the ITF-online forum and I can copy and paste my posts from there!
    Generally in my regular classes though it's just a quick way to get things started, we all know eachother, we line up quick, no egos, bow and get on with the real training then. It doesn't bother me and I don't think too much about it.
    Exactly what I was saying, this is an example of the ‘best case’ where it’s harmless and doesn’t have a negative impact.
    training. Long winded way of saying I don't really care either way, once the training / class is good, good atmosphere, you learn, get better, get motivated, improve etc etc then that's the most important thing.
    Cool.
    Tim, absolutely there are plenty of ways to have structure. I'm not saying "my way is better than your way", I'm saying don't dismiss it based on an incorrect assumption
    I’m not dismissing it because of an incorrect assumption, I’m dismissing it because of my years training and teaching using the method and because of the reasons I gave above.
    Lining up in order of grade is only one aspect of the formal structure. I wasn't trying to get everyone to agree with the formal method but I can certainly give you some reasons why it works for me.
    I have been to lots of less formally structured classes and sure, the training gets done. But I didn’t like seeing guys sitting down for a break when they felt like it, walking on and off the floor anytime they wanted cos they decided it’s time for a water break, crowding around the instructor to get a better view. Doing an excersize (or whatever) and then casually strolling back to the end of the line. At times even seeing guys doing their own thing in the corner while the rest of the class did something else.
    That sounds a little like a badly structured class but there are any number of thing in less formal training that a ‘traditionalist’ won’t like on principle as well. People shouldn't really be wandering off for water during a round of sparring or whatever but likewise they shouldn't have to go ask the instructors permission before they do it either.
    Agreed, there are other ways to stop that kind of behaviour, but the formal structure doesn't leave any ambiguity. Everyone knows where they should be, what they should be doing etc.
    True, but some of these other methods also have the advantage of not introducing poor training methods like line ups into the training.
    Anyone who read my posts and somehow came up with me saying "we do it cos it's always been done that way", you seem to be making assumptions based on your experiences. But you won't find that in my posts.
    I didn’t say that was what you said, I said that is the reason most people I’ve come across have for doing a lot of what they do. Of course they won’t always realise that themselves and will rationalise it but that’s basically what it comes down to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    I don't doubt you've had negative experiences in traditional classes. The fact that I've had bad experiences in less formal classes, doesn't make them all bad.
    It's not really about people having had bad experiences in traditional classes. It's about looking at the structure of these classes, applying a little critical thinking and realising there is a lot of flaws in them. I think this is what a lot of 'traditionalists' have a problem with and they then try to pass it off by saying 'well you have had a bad experience but...'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    Mikaboshi, I don't know what you are looking at but you obviously haven't read my posts.

    Just because someone does not agree with your views does not mean we have not read your posts or cannot comprehend what you are saying.

    You are defending the line without suggesting the benefits to its existence. So far you have only come up with other people taking breaks for water or whatever but that has nothing to do with lining up with class, either the instructor allows this behaviour or they do not, standing in a line does not prohibit it. So why bother doing it apart from thats how it was taught to you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    And I can apply the same critical thinking and see the flaws in the less formal classes also.

    I'm saying my bad experience hasn't led me to close off my mind completetly about less formal training.

    You can certainly sacrifice the formalities if you are prepared to sacrifice the benefits that go with it. Many people are willing to do that, I'm not.
    I'll still go to the odd Muay thai class or whatever and enjoy something different, but I'll favour the discipline of a formal structure. But that's me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Mikaboshi wrote: »
    Just because someone does not agree with your views does not mean we have not read your posts or cannot comprehend what you are saying.

    You said I had suggested it has merit because it was done before. I didn't. Actually you even said I REPEATED it.
    Then questioned what I said about the instructor moving toward the students, which was only one part of my post and I don't think you interpreted it properly.
    You also said I was advocating structure for structure's sake. Which is incorrect.
    And finally, my post was saying that the line up wasn't all about ego, I didn't start out to say it was better or list benefits.
    Mikaboshi wrote: »
    You are defending the line without suggesting the benefits to its existence. So far you have only come up with other people taking breaks for water or whatever but that has nothing to do with lining up with class, either the instructor allows this behaviour or they do not, standing in a line does not prohibit it. So why bother doing it apart from thats how it was taught to you?

    The line up is one part of an overall structure that contributes to avoiding the kind of behaviour mentioned above and developing discipline.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    The "load of me hole" was regarding people stating that it was better for beginners to watch the people in front of them. I stand by my hole on that one.

    I never said it was better for beginners to watch the people in front, I merely stated that this was one reason people use for lining up, and it is.

    Personally I think there are more valid points being made against lining up than for it. As I said before some people go overboard with it. Last year in the IBK training camp in Croatia when we were all lining up one of the Black Belts in the front row got a fairly hard low kick off one of the Hanshi's because the people behind him weren't in a straight line. Way OTT if you ask me.

    As for going for water I absolutely believe that people should have to ask for permission or wait until the instructor gives a water break. Part of training is learning to control your body and knowing when you actually need to do something, like take a drink of water, instead of just wanting to do it, or because it's what you're used to. Besides, a good instructor will make sure that his/her students know that they should hydrate throughout the whole day before training. If they haven't, tough.

    Edit: Yeah sorry, reasons for lining up. Certainly in Kenpo it was done because it was the "done thing". "Ed Parker did it like this and therefore so shall we". Kyokushin is the same, but they also use it as part of the discipline training. That is, no matter how knackered you are after/during training, you go back and line up in the correct position in the correct posture, even when you just want to collapse. That same posture is also done before and after Kumite, whether its after the first person, or the twentieth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Personally I think there are more valid points being made against lining up than for it. As I said before some people go overboard with it. Last year in the IBK training camp in Croatia when we were all lining up one of the Black Belts in the front row got a fairly hard low kick off one of the Hanshi's because the people behind him weren't in a straight line. Way OTT if you ask me.
    Doesn't sound OTT to me, just sounds like the guy was a cock. There are people like that in all walks of life but MA is the one place where they can actually hit people!
    As for going for water I absolutely believe that people should have to ask for permission or wait until the instructor gives a water break. Part of training is learning to control your body and knowing when you actually need to do something, like take a drink of water, instead of just wanting to do it, or because it's what you're used to. Besides, a good instructor will make sure that his/her students know that they should hydrate throughout the whole day before training. If they haven't, tough.
    So if a guy hasn't been able to drink enough water during the day because he works on a site doing physical labour, or because she's a nurse and been on her feet all day or any other one of the myriad reasons why people might not get enough water through the day, then it's 'tough' if he or she is dehydrated during exercise?

    Charlie3dan I think you've proved my point rather than anything. Your reasons for keeping the lines might sound valid but things like making people kneel down so someone at the back of the room can see is just a bit ridiculous when all anyone has to do is walk closer for a look. Quick example, one of my friends is near sighted and I remember a well known black belt giving out yards to him for breaking the ranks to walk forward to get a better look at the technique being shown, even though he was squinting like Mr. Magoo.

    Antiquated is the best word I can use without further reference to my backside.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    Doesn't sound OTT to me, just sounds like the guy was a cock. There are people like that in all walks of life but MA is the one place where they can actually hit people!

    So if a guy hasn't been able to drink enough water during the day because he works on a site doing physical labour, or because she's a nurse and been on her feet all day or any other one of the myriad reasons why people might not get enough water through the day, then it's 'tough' if he or she is dehydrated during exercise?

    Perhaps not OTT but definitely unnecessary.
    It's not difficult to make sure you're drinking enough water. Most people just don't think of it. But granted there are going to be occasions where people just can't get enough water into them. During training is too late though, so water breaks are more of a mental thing. Probably also helps cool the body.


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