Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

oscarBravo · 14-08-2008 12:58pm

B-K-DzR wrote: »

Whatever maps they use on that website aren't very accurate unfortunately. Mis named roads and even roads not totally accurate.

Google Maps - using the less-than-perfect TeleAtlas street data. Yahoo Maps (and most of the satnav products) use the much better Navteq data.

garydubh · 14-08-2008 3:07pm

bk wrote: »

Oh, thinking about it further, I get the reason now. You could potentially end up with a code like WTK VN in some circumstances, but personally I don't see this as being a big problem. Why must there be a number in the code?

BTW can someone use a code like W5K 00VN to give just a 120m resolution and still work with GPS and mapping software?

bk, appreciate all your positive feedback. You can be sure that any software developed will be able to read the code short or long including Garmin. However, its is designed for best use at 7 characters so that delivery vans will even know what side of the road to park to make the delivery.

Some of my earlier comments were in reply to others posts rather than yours.

If you need any more detailed info - you can get me at info@gpsireland.ie

garydubh · 14-08-2008 3:12pm

OscarBravo,

many thanks for all your support on this. Regarding the source code - we are currently making it available under a royalty free licence for website developers. Please contact me if you want to discuss - info@gpsireland.ie

LordSutch · 15-08-2008 3:07pm

Presuming PON is the official term for 'Irish Postcodes' what does PON stand for? Post Office something ... ?

garydubh · 15-08-2008 4:14pm

ArthurF wrote: »

Presuming PON is the official term for 'Irish Postcodes' what does PON stand for? Post Office something ... ?

ArthurF - PON Code stands for Position Orientated Navigation Code - full explanation here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/findoutmore.php

These codes are not just designed for mail services - they are for anyone trying to find any location in Ireland. They are starting to be used by Tourist and Hospitality related businesses - see here: http://www.travelshopireland.com/featured-accommodation/bed-and-breakfast/lecan-lodge-ennisrone.html

Anyone wants to have a look at them in use on a Garmin Nuvi 700 series SatNav contact us at info@gpsireland.ie and we will arrange it for you.

turgon · 16-08-2008 12:28am

garydubh, a great service imo that shows one of the main benefits of capitalism - private innovation. Tell me, are ye in discussions with the government about officially introducing them?

Flamed Diving · 16-08-2008 10:16am

I work for a service where we need to record peoples addresses over the phone and I swear to **** some of them are in Japanese.

'Where do ya live'?

Billgooleybaiely,
Capperrappertwomey,
Balineslappedurrow,
Tuam
Co Galway

Bring on post codes, I say.

LordSutch · 16-08-2008 10:23am

Just out of curiousity, is the PON number relavent to the name of the Townland?

Example: In the UK a Postcode for Twickenham might be 'TW12 2DX', Kingston might be 'KT4 6BY', Belfast 'BT6 2NI', and London/Glasgow are divided into SW (South West) SE (South East) etc etc etc ...................

The first two letters usually signifying the Town/City name (London/Glasgow apart) which I presume is pretty handy for Postmen & Customers alike, Dun Laoghare might have a 'DL' prefix?

Is PON this user friendly? does it have a two letter 'clue' in the code? or not?

bk · 16-08-2008 12:20pm

ArthurF wrote: »

Is PON this user friendly? does it have a two letter 'clue' in the code? or not?

Not quiet the same, Dublin would always start with a M, Cork starts with a W, etc.

So I'm sure people would quickly learn roughly where in the country a particular code is (like 01 is Dublin, 021 is Cork, etc.).

IMO the many other advantages of this system way out weight this one advantage of the British system.

garydubh · 16-08-2008 9:28pm

The advantage of a PON Code is that it does not need a database. If characters in the code are to indicate Towns like the UK, then the code would need a database which then would need to be regularly amended/updated. Any thing with a database costs extra in money and hardware resources when it comes to being deployed on mobile devices and the end result is things get out of date. This is the problem with the UK postcode system as well as the fact that its resolution is related to areas rather than individual properties. Routinely, as a result of new housing estate developments in the UK, houses are changed from 1 postcode area to another. Also only propreties in the UK can have post codes - so lots of hassle and problems and it has taken 50 years to get it generally accepted. We don't have 50 years to make a PostCode system for Ireland work!

For all these reasons PON codes are coordinate based - and therefore, they do not need a database;- so no keeping up to date problems and costs for the users. Every property can have a PON code as well as non properties such as mobile clinics, point to point meeting places, football matches, delivery points on new road constructions, accident locations etc etc - anything/anywhere! (Anytime/Anyplace!!!)

The first 3 characters of the PON Codes define areas which are 3.5 km square and users will become familiar with these with use. Have a look here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/ponc/poncviewl.php for more explanations.

If you have Google Earth installed, you can click on the letter squares on the right of the page in the link above and see where each of the first 3 characters cover in the country.

As for talking to the Government... we have indeed spoken with them - they are very much aware of PON Codes and are watching carefully as they will be nationalising some system in 2010 and any system that is running and running well will be attractive.

Thanks all for your interest- I hope I am answering your questions fully - if not please e-mail me at info@gpsireland.ie. I supppose also that you should not forget that PON Codes are designed to take full advantage of GPS (SatNav) and GIS technologies - things that were not around when the UK system was designed!!! PON Codes are not just about delivering mail - they are also there to support the 0.5 million commercial vehicles plying our roads daily and the 1 million visitors who come to Ireland by road annually - looking for places to stay, eat, do business and be entertained!

PS -watch out for Sunday Business Post tomorrow 17th Aug - there should be something on SatNav's and PostCodes etc (Barring something more important cropping up - which is very possible....)

LordSutch · 17-08-2008 11:26am

Very interesting indeed, and thank you 'garydubh' for that explanation of PON codes, I must say that the logic at first glance sounds watertight apart from the obvious anomoly of Dublin having the letter M instead of D in its PON code, but once we get used to them they seem to be much more precise & fool proof than Royal Mail Post codes, I must say that I still like the idea of the Town name being represented in the Postcode for example (Belfast = BT or Coventry = CV) but I suppose you just cant have everything in the code, & you cant please everybody ~ anyway, the PON system sounds Great, and about time too . . . . .

turgon · 17-08-2008 12:40pm

ArthurF wrote: »

I must say that I still like the idea of the Town name being represented in the Postcode

Having done a bit of database work myself I can see where Gary Dubh is coming from. Imagine ArthurF that you buy a sat nav. Now with Gary Dubhs system you would never need to update your sat nav that often, maybe only to include newly built roads. Because no matter how many new houses are built the old postcodes stay same and the ew ones are predictable.

On the other hand if you want your postcode to be in some way related to the geographical location ('D' for Dublin etc), the 100% basis on maths is gone. Thus your satnav will need to store information on its memory so it will know where D is actually is (rather than simply using maths and a large map to work it out). The should county bounds be changed, or new developments crop up, you will need to update this memory on a regular basis which will cost you money.

At least thats how it would seem to me.

LordSutch · 17-08-2008 12:51pm

Agreed, and I still think PON codes are a Great idea, & you and I might have Sat Nav's, but not everyone will . . . . but yes, I agree that its foolproof & logical.

garydubh · 17-08-2008 2:58pm

PON Codes may not have D for Dublin - but they do have M for Metropolis - which better reflects the true modern-day geographic extent of our Capital and its hinterland!

W then stands for Wonderland - I can say that having lived in Cork now for 29 years!!!!

So it appears that I migrated to the Wonderland from the Metropolis!:D

thebman · 17-08-2008 3:54pm

Honestly are people that thick that they can't remember a mix of numbers and letters?

Since I first heard of PON, I've been waiting for people to wake up to what a great idea it is.

I do have to say that I don't actually like the website but the idea is fantastic. This is the second Irish company I've seen recently where I've loved the product but hated the p*ss stain yellow background on the website (no offense). I don't know what the logic is behind it or why people can't just use a white background on their website.

Anyway great idea and fully support it despite the website. I think the level of detail or resolution as you call it is important and I think its at the perfect level. I'm willing to remember the extra digits for a postcode if it is that much more accurate.

I have to believe that anyone not willing to remember so few digits doesn't get why the idea is so good and needs to read more about the subject. As best I can remember, all the benefits and reasons for the length of the post codes are on their website and give a good explaination. Just bear with the length for the sake of the emergency services FFS.

Firetrap · 17-08-2008 6:43pm

I like the idea too. The problem is getting An Post to move on it. The work practices in there leave a lot to be desired.

Overheal · 17-08-2008 7:23pm

I remember all but 3 of the post codes I've ever lived in. 98223, 32174, 29414 and 29483. and those missing were only from a lack of not needing them when I was there. 98223 was when I was 6 years old :rolleyes: the argument that they are difficult to memorise is silly. though you could argue the digit by itself is kinda meaningless in general conversation.

turgon · 17-08-2008 7:36pm

ArthurF wrote: »

Agreed, and I still think PON codes are a Great idea, & you and I might have Sat Nav's, but not everyone will . . . . but yes, I agree that its foolproof & logical.

Well I actually dont, I was talking hypothetically.

brim4brim wrote: »

Since I first heard of PON, I've been waiting for people to wake up to what a great idea it is.

Sometimes in this country you get the distinct impression that your time would be better spent planning an uprising and taking over the place, rather trying to speak to the conservative backbone of the electorate. This is the country where people equate nuclear power with nuclear weapons, and automatically assume that we will have a Chernobyl style incident within hours of starting to build a nuclear power plant.

Maybe we should lobby the government.

garydubh · 17-08-2008 8:55pm

brim4brim wrote: »

Honestly are people that thick that they can't remember a mix of numbers and letters?

Since I first heard of PON, I've been waiting for people to wake up to what a great idea it is.

I do have to say that I don't actually like the website but the idea is fantastic. This is the second Irish company I've seen recently where I've loved the product but hated the p*ss stain yellow background on the website (no offense). I don't know what the logic is behind it or why people can't just use a white background on their website.

Anyway great idea and fully support it despite the website. I think the level of detail or resolution as you call it is important and I think its at the perfect level. I'm willing to remember the extra digits for a postcode if it is that much more accurate.

I have to believe that anyone not willing to remember so few digits doesn't get why the idea is so good and needs to read more about the subject. As best I can remember, all the benefits and reasons for the length of the post codes are on their website and give a good explaination. Just bear with the length for the sake of the emergency services FFS.

Firetrap wrote: »

I like the idea too. The problem is getting An Post to move on it. The work practices in there leave a lot to be desired.

Overheal wrote: »

I remember all but 3 of the post codes I've ever lived in. 98223, 32174, 29414 and 29483. and those missing were only from a lack of not needing them when I was there. 98223 was when I was 6 years old :rolleyes: the argument that they are difficult to memorise is silly. though you could argue the digit by itself is kinda meaningless in general conversation.

Brim4Brim - website is beta test version only - will be redesigned in time.

Firetrap - No need to worry about An Post - there will be Postal Liberalisation in 2010 and Dept of Comms do now and will then make all regulatory decisions. PON Codes are already in use - no need to wait for approval from on high - if they save money/time/fuel etc then just use them.

OverHeal - I agree - people have to remember more and more passwords, pin numbers, e-mail addresses etc etc these days that they are used to remembering what they use regularly and get benefit from. If you are being asked to provide a Zip/post Code when buying on line - then remembering and using PON Codes will be a major benefit. There is no digit on its own?

Remembering your PON Code after a night on the town to give to the taxi man will be the ultimate challenge !

ChocolateSauce · 19-08-2008 12:30pm

Post codes? That'll upset some of the south Dubliners who are happy to live in "Co.Dublin"

But yeah, it is annyoing when I'm trying to buy something online and the site insists on a "zip". I once had to tell a seller on ebay TWICE that I had no post code before he got the message.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-08-2008 12:01am

The acronym PONC is extremely unfortunate. I have to agree also, the website is crap!

garydubh · 20-08-2008 8:34am

ninja900 wrote: »

The acronym PONC is extremely unfortunate. I have to agree also, the website is crap!

The Irish Language is not unfortunate in any way - PONC -prounced "Punk" is the Irish word for Point. Perhaps being of "Ninja" extraction you did not understand this.

We now have your negative comments and they are appreciated and noted- more importantly though we do not have your opinion on the PON Code itself which is the centre of this discussion- that would be very much appreciated.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-08-2008 12:31am

garydubh wrote: »

The Irish Language is not unfortunate in any way

Oh, my mistake, I didn't realise I was viewing an Irish language website, all the English words confused me :rolleyes: I hate the token plonking of Irish words (especially acronyms) into English text.

- PONC -prounced "Punk" is the Irish word for Point.

PONC pronounced Ponce is a synonym for pervert.

Perhaps being of "Ninja" extraction you did not understand this.

Huh?
How many Irish people who have had 13 years of daily instruction in the Irish language, as I have had, understand the word "ponc" ?

SeanW · 21-08-2008 1:18am

I don't care what they call it. I just want a postcode system fast so that I can stop giving directions to delivery people etc "on the road from Longford out to Grandard, turn right at this crossroads look for a house with a blue car outside the front door ... "
I had to do that a couple of days ago with a delivery man. I swear it's like flippin' Nicaragua or something.

garydubh · 21-08-2008 8:11am

ninja900 wrote: »

Huh?

How many Irish people who have had 13 years of daily instruction in the Irish language, as I have had, understand the word "ponc" ?

Winja - never mind 13 years - look back around 13 days here and it is explained. Its worth reading into things - it always makes thing clearer! If you still don't like it - then use the full term - "PON Code" - all explained here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/findoutmore.php

garydubh · 21-08-2008 8:23am

SeanW wrote: »

I don't care what they call it. I just want a postcode system fast so that I can stop giving directions to delivery people etc "on the road from Longford out to Grandard, turn right at this crossroads look for a house with a blue car outside the front door ... "
I had to do that a couple of days ago with a delivery man. I swear it's like flippin' Nicaragua or something.

Sean - send your delivery man to www.irishpostcodes.ie and we can give him a Garmin Nuvi 700 series SatNav with PON Codes working on it - just give him the PON Code for your loaction - he punches it into the SatNav and no directions needed - the SatNav takes him to the door - "arriving at W5K 59VN on left" see here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/useponconsatnav.php

bk · 22-08-2008 11:21am

The extreme need for post codes was proven to me over the weekend.

I was heading to classic furniture and woodies on the Malahide Road, didn't know exactly where it was, the GPS was almost useless, given the address from the woodies website, the closest it could get me was "The Malahide" road. That is fecking useful, the road being a few miles long, almost missed the turn off.

Again later heading to Airside, the GPS didn't know the address, just a very long road.

Had I been able to get a PONC from these companies websites, it would have been very simple matter to input it into the GPS (much quicker then entering an address) and I would have been taken straight there, even if the GPS didn't know the address.

We really do desperately need some sort of postcodes, preferably something like Garys PONC.

thebman · 22-08-2008 11:29am

Yeah I had a courier deliverying something to my parents house ring for directions yesterday and it was horrible trying to describe where to go as my parents live in the country side.

Basically I ended up saying, its the last house on the left just before the blind bend and I'll ask my da to stand by the side of the road to wave you down.

Well you try directing someone to around here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.267247,-7.596767&spn=0.004274,0.009656&z=17

and you know why we need postcodes in this fooking country. Courier said he couldn't find the place and he'd be back tomorrow because he had another delivery to make in town by the end of the day.

Pgibson · 22-08-2008 12:53pm

I have two Polish girls renting a house in rural Co. Galway.

There are no house numbers in rural Ireland,much less post codes.

I had to put a "funny" memorable name on the house in order that they
could receive any mail at all!

This country is still in the Dark Ages.

.

garydubh · 22-08-2008 7:25pm

brim4brim wrote: »

Yeah I had a courier deliverying something to my parents house ring for directions yesterday and it was horrible trying to describe where to go as my parents live in the country side.

Basically I ended up saying, its the last house on the left just before the blind bend and I'll ask my da to stand by the side of the road to wave you down.

Well you try directing someone to around here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.267247,-7.596767&spn=0.004274,0.009656&z=17

and you know why we need postcodes in this fooking country. Courier said he couldn't find the place and he'd be back tomorrow because he had another delivery to make in town by the end of the day.

Yes it is approximated that around 3% of all courier deliveries are unsuccessful in Ireland for this reason - that means no delivery within the specified time as apid for, extra fuel costs for the courier - probably an additional phone bill for the courier/client and the extra cost of returning a second time or the recipient having to go to the courier's depot. An what if you want something collected in a Rural Area after selling it on ebay?? These are all the things that PON Codes were developed to resolve.

We are now at the stage that all the important users have tested and agreed that PON Codes are desirable and work very well. Garmin have supported the testing and over the next few weeks we will make a case to Garmin to implement PON Codes on all their units. Anyone who wishes to have their opinion registered for viewing by Garmin please complete the feedback here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/feedback.php

The more the merrier!

SeanW · 22-08-2008 10:09pm

I got my PON code the other day, but I don't know if competing couriers like DHL use it, or more importantly the emergency services, if I ever needed them.

garydubh · 23-08-2008 10:19am

SeanW wrote: »

I got my PON code the other day, but I don't know if competing couriers like DHL use it, or more importantly the emergency services, if I ever needed them.

SeanW - yes indeed we are just at the beginning - they have all tested PON Codes and know what they are and how to use them. So if you start using PON Codes yourself then - Couriers and Emergency services will do so also. Again, we are now nearing the end of the testing phase - so next step is to make available widely on Garmin SatNav's - everyone's feedback will help this process - please complete here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/feedback.php

oscarBravo · 24-08-2008 9:19pm

Someone asked me earlier how the emergency services find rural houses in France and Denmark. Can't answer for France, but here in Denmark it seems that every road, including minor rural ones, has a name, and every house has a street number - somewhat similar to the US approach. Also, mailboxes are required to have the resident's name on them.

Could we do this? Yes, but an approach like Gary's is a lot less disruptive and a lot more scalable.

plodder · 25-08-2008 9:00am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'd like to see it become the de facto post code standard for Ireland. While ComReg et al have sat around and talked about it for years, someone actually did some work and came up with something that works. Again, it may not be perfect, but if the only flaw that can be found with it is that it's a couple of digits too long, I think that says a lot.

Being a couple of digits too long is quite a major flaw for a post code IMO. I agree that the government's performance has been lamentable on this. But, rather than just picking the best (and only) system that is currently out there, I'd prefer to see an in depth analysis of all the possibilties before deciding on an official system. What I would do, would be to fund some research say in one of the universities into the subject, where they would specify a number of different types of system, and then a group could decide, which one best fits the requirements.

Maybe, Gary can correct me on this, but I assume his business is trying to make some money out of this (nothing wrong with that of course), but I think that will hinder the uptake of his system (like if the GPS units have to be sourced from him). Even if ultimately, it is decided that a system like Gary's is the best way to go, I think it should be completely unencumbered by licenses, and be implementable freely by anyone.

BTW. On your last post, I just noticed in some parts of the country, there is an effort underway to identify all local roads. In Mayo, I have noticed signs going up like "L123456" identifying even the tiniest boreens.

LordSutch · 25-08-2008 9:13am

Are PONC codes the only show in Town? or are there any other Postcode ideas/ systems being considered and tested by the powers that be?

garydubh · 25-08-2008 11:50am

plodder wrote: »

Being a couple of digits too long is quite a major flaw for a post code IMO. I agree that the government's performance has been lamentable on this. But, rather than just picking the best (and only) system that is currently out there, I'd prefer to see an in depth analysis of all the possibilties before deciding on an official system. What I would do, would be to fund some research say in one of the universities into the subject, where they would specify a number of different types of system, and then a group could decide, which one best fits the requirements.

Maybe, Gary can correct me on this, but I assume his business is trying to make some money out of this (nothing wrong with that of course), but I think that will hinder the uptake of his system (like if the GPS units have to be sourced from him). Even if ultimately, it is decided that a system like Gary's is the best way to go, I think it should be completely unencumbered by licenses, and be implementable freely by anyone.

BTW. On your last post, I just noticed in some parts of the country, there is an effort underway to identify all local roads. In Mayo, I have noticed signs going up like "L123456" identifying even the tiniest boreens.

Plodder: what you are recommending is what has already happened over the last 4 years - i.e. a Post Code board was appointed, consultants were employed, proposals were reviewed and recommendations were made - yet nothing has been implemented - why - because the system they recommeneded would cost 50 million to implement, uses general areas as post codes which does not satisfy the requirements of the business community, requires substantial databases which would take time to create and cost significant amounts to maintain and does not address the issues experienced with the UK system over the last 50 years.

Why did we create PON Codes - to avoid all the issues highlighted above, to allow a system be implemented quickly and efficiently and above all else to assist the 0.5 million commercial vehicles wasting fuel on our roads daily trying to find places.

Are we hoping to make money out of it? - our business is GPS - we want to make SatNav's more easily used and to their full commercial potential in Ireland - we make a living from empowering people with GPS.

On the old chestnut of the number of Characters in the Post Code. We have postal zones in Dublin with just 2 characters that define areas with hundreds of thousands of houses. There are Post Codes with up to 7 charcaters in the UK which define areas with up to 40 houses - which in cities are small areas but in the country this can be a substantial square area.

So the number of characters is related to the resolution required. The less characters, the more houses have the same code and the less valauable the code is for delivery management and navigation or emergency services.

We do not need teams of students to tell us what number of characters we need in our Post Code - we just need to know how accurate we want to be with our code and this is defined by the purposes it is to be put to.

Plodder - you keep bringing this up - please sit down and try work it through for yourself - first decide what resolution is required (dictated by uses and not just delivering the Post) and then design a system to match that resolution.

It has all been done by many people in Ireland already - no need to start this all over again adding another 4 years to implementation.

A National post code system will be implemeted in Ireland eventually - this may be PON Codes - however, even if it is not there will be no prison sentences for anyone taking the benefit of PON Codes in the mean time - they are free of Tariff, Penalty and Prison Sentence to use!!!

garydubh · 25-08-2008 11:59am

ArthurF wrote: »

Are PONC codes the only show in Town? or are there any other Postcode ideas/ systems being considered and tested by the powers that be?

There were several proposals made to Government and the consultants recommended 3 different types - one of which was a coordinate based system like PON Codes.

The no.1 recommended system, which has been subjected to cost benefit analysis by Dept Of Comms. for the last 12 months, has 6 characters but only defines areas which could be up to 6km square in rural areas - thereby making it useless for emergency, doctor or delivery services outside Dublin.

Another system which was privately promoted by a member of the Government's own Post Code Management Board is also based on coordinates but was shown to be ill conceived and unworkable recently when it was shown that with this system "D0G FACE" could be someone's Post Code.

Of course, the longer this indecision goes on, the more ideas will pop up and the more confusion will reign!!!

Right now PON Codes are the only workable system available and in use www.irishpostcodes.ie

plodder · 25-08-2008 12:05pm

garydubh wrote: »

There were several proposals made to Government and the consultants recommeded 3 different types - one of which was a coordinate based system like PON Codes.

The no.1 recommended system, subjected to cost benefit analysis by Dept Of Comms. for the last 12 months, has 6 characters but only defines areas which could be up to 6km square in rural areas - thereby making it useless for emergency, doctor or delivery services outside Dublin.

Another system developed by a member of the Government's own Post Code Management Board is also based on coordinates but was shown to be ill conceived and unworkable recently.

Do you have details of all these proposals? As far as I was aware, nothing has been published, and therefore possible (for people like me) to evaluate.

garydubh · 25-08-2008 12:26pm

plodder wrote: »

Do you have details of all these proposals? As far as I was aware, nothing has been published, and therefore possible (for people like me) to evaluate.

You will have to contact Dept Of Comms - all the info I have I have seen on and off over the last 3/4 years - there is no single repository of all this info except with Dep of Comms

plodder · 25-08-2008 1:39pm

garydubh wrote: »

You will have to contact Dept Of Comms - all the info I have I have seen on and off over the last 3/4 years - there is no single repository of all this info except with Dep of Comms

So, nothing has been published then. For all we know, they haven't really done any significant work at all. The most I have heard is a system consisting of three letters and three digits, which is not a description (of a system) at all. How do we know the consultants have done a good job, that the recommended system was the best one, or that it really would have cost €50 million? There are plenty of vested interests involved in this whole business, not least An Post, who seriously downplayed the usefulness of the GeoDirectory, when asked by Minister Dempsey back in 2005.

What I would have liked is independent published research, maybe by academics in different fields like Geography, IT, who might have been able to come up with different and creative solutions to the problem.

plodder · 25-08-2008 2:07pm

garydubh wrote: »

Plodder: what you are recommending is what has already happened over the last 4 years - i.e. a Post Code board was appointed, consultants were employed, proposals were reviewed and recommendations were made - yet nothing has been implemented - why - because the system they recommeneded would cost 50 million to implement, uses general areas as post codes which does not satisfy the requirements of the business community, requires substantial databases which would take time to create and cost significant amounts to maintain and does not address the issues experienced with the UK system over the last 50 years.

Why did we create PON Codes - to avoid all the issues highlighted above, to allow a system be implemented quickly and efficiently and above all else to assist the 0.5 million commercial vehicles wasting fuel on our roads daily trying to find places.

Are we hoping to make money out of it? - our business is GPS - we want to make SatNav's more easily used and to their full commercial potential in Ireland - we make a living from empowering people with GPS.

On the old chestnut of the number of Characters in the Post Code. We have postal zones in Dublin with just 2 characters that define areas with hundreds of thousands of houses. There are Post Codes with up to 7 charcaters in the UK which define areas with up to 40 houses - which in cities are small areas but in the country this can be a substantial square area.

So the number of characters is related to the resolution required. The less characters, the more houses have the same code and the less valauable the code is for delivery management and navigation or emergency services.

We do not need teams of students to tell us what number of characters we need in our Post Code - we just need to know how accurate we want to be with our code and this is defined by the purposes it is to be put to.

Plodder - you keep bringing this up - please sit down and try work it through for yourself - first decide what resolution is required (dictated by uses and not just delivering the Post) and then design a system to match that resolution.

With respect, I think you're missing my point(s). It's not just about the resolution of the code. There are other issues as well, like whether the post code areas should follow existing administrative boundaries or not. These are important questions, that matter to some post code users (eg government, statistical agencies) but not the commercial delivery sector that you care about. It would be ludicrous for the State to adopt a system without considering how well it meets the needs of all users. Even on the resolution question, it isn't a simple fixed trade-off between size of code, and granularity. As I mentioned earlier, there are other ways to encode a position, that might potentially be more efficient than just compressing the latitude and longitude (or other co-ordinate system).

On the issue of urgency (with respect to solving the delivery problem), there's nothing to stop people from getting their own lat/long coordinates (from websites like this one). All satnavs support lat/long co-ordinates. In fact, when it comes to calling out information over the phone, it's arguable that exclusively numeric codes like this are easier to deal with. Calling out letters is always problematic, unless you learn off one of the phonetic alphabets.

garydubh · 25-08-2008 4:50pm

Plodder you are talking around in circles. First recommending a system with minimum characters and now finally recommending Lat/long with a minimum of 14 characters and not mentioning which version of Lat/long to be used.

Your comments are now reactionary and you are not thinking things through and if I may say so starting at least 4 years too late!

What are you talking about administartive areas for - they have nothing to do with Post Codes and if you were to relate Post Codes to Admin Areas then we will all have to change our Post Codes every time that administrative areas change - which they do !

Geographers/IT specialists etc etc - they all have already been involved including Central Statistics office, GIS persons etc etc etc - I personally fall into several of those brackets.

Look this is not some academic project to fulfill a PhD requirement - it is the real world where commercial opertators (which I think you have some dislike for) are spending more time and fuel delivering goods and services every day that they need do. PON Codes can save up to 15% straight away in fuel costs and reduce the 3% failed courier deliveries daily to nil.

Go back to the drawing board if you wish - do it all over again - but please realise that the pens you are using at the drawing board are getting more expensive to deliver because of the absence of Post Codes!

Anyhow, we cannot start all over again just because you were not ready the first time...

Gurgle · 25-08-2008 5:56pm

garydubh wrote: »

There were several proposals made to Government and the consultants recommended 3 different types - one of which was a coordinate based system like PON Codes.

The no.1 recommended system, which has been subjected to cost benefit analysis by Dept Of Comms. for the last 12 months, has 6 characters but only defines areas which could be up to 6km square in rural areas - thereby making it useless for emergency, doctor or delivery services outside Dublin.

^^ & this is why millions have been spent and we still don't have postcodes.

A perfectly functional system could be put together on a friday afternoon by a 2nd year maths student with a decent set of maps and a copy of the most recent census data on population density.

Though I still maintain that it would be an afternoon better spent in the pub, postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

thebman · 25-08-2008 8:37pm

Gurgle wrote: »

^^ & this is why millions have been spent and we still don't have postcodes.

A perfectly functional system could be put together on a friday afternoon by a 2nd year maths student with a decent set of maps and a copy of the most recent census data on population density.

Though I still maintain that it would be an afternoon better spent in the pub, postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

Are you drunk or have you just never used a Satnav in Ireland versus another country.

Irish Satnavs are crap, in Britain you just enter the postcode and go. Its all because of postcodes and inaccurate mapping data that Satnavs are almost useless in this country.

bk · 25-08-2008 8:42pm

plodder wrote: »

Being a couple of digits too long is quite a major flaw for a post code IMO.

I really don't see the problem here, Garys system is 7 digits (or 5 if you want a lower resolution).

Both my landline and my mobile number are 9 digits long and I've no problem remembering them.

UK postcodes are up to 7 characters long also (and are less accurate and much more expensive to run).

US zip codes are 5 digits long, but they have an extended system called ZIP+4 which is 9 digits long and gives accuracy less then Garys system.

The other proposed Irish system is 6 digits long, far less accurate then Garys system and much more expensive to set up and run.

You can find info about post code systems around the world here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_code

Most are around 7 digits, so no problem here.

BTW, typing a 7 digit code into a GPS, is much easier then typing: "Woodies, Malahide Road, Dublin, Ireland"

plodder wrote: »

Maybe, Gary can correct me on this, but I assume his business is trying to make some money out of this (nothing wrong with that of course), but I think that will hinder the uptake of his system (like if the GPS units have to be sourced from him). Even if ultimately, it is decided that a system like Gary's is the best way to go, I think it should be completely unencumbered by licenses, and be implementable freely by anyone.

I would assume that if the Government choose Gary's system (and I hope they do), that they would buy the license off him and publish the algorithm implementation and spec license free.

I have no objection to Gary making a few bob off this.

Gurgle wrote:

Though I still maintain that it would be an afternoon better spent in the pub, postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

I completely disagree, IMO Sat navs make it more necessary, not less. Over the last fews weeks I've been using GPS a lot (TomTom and iPhone) and I've found actually accurately finding addresses very hard. The GPS rarely has the actual address and instead directs you to the rough area of the road, which can be5 miles long (my earlier examples of the Malahide Road and M1).

Aothern example is my own apartment, not 2 miles from O'Connell St, it was built just over 1 year ago, but still isn't listed in GPS systems, so most taxis and delivery companies end up driving up and down the road for 15 minutes before calling me and I need to give them detailed directions and that is in Dublin city!!! I hate to think what it is like in rural areas.

turgon · 25-08-2008 9:29pm

bk wrote: »

Both my landline and my mobile number are 9 digits long and I've no problem remembering them.

I remember a good few more numbers than my own as well. Believe it or not folks, a 7 digit PONC code can be remembered. If you wana find a problem with the system dont let it be this.

Gurgle wrote: »

A perfectly functional system could be put together on a friday afternoon by a 2nd year maths student with a decent set of maps and a copy of the most recent census data on population density

Well maybe not precisely but the fact is that this has taken way too long.

oscarBravo · 25-08-2008 9:39pm

Gurgle wrote: »

... postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for this. I've used sat-navs here and in the UK, and being able to type in a postcode over there is a godsend, compared to typing in a street address here (if you're going to a street, and you have the spelling right, and the street address is accurate enough).

I note with interest that the bulk of the objections to PON codes come from people who don't personally have a problem that it will solve. This is almost certainly the reasoning that has led to us not having them: An Post don't want them, and have successfully blocked their introduction.

If you don't think we need postcodes, don't use one - but don't complain if the rest of us, who most certainly do need them, carry on without you and start actually getting parcels delivered without spending ten minutes on the phone and then standing outside the door waving at couriers - something I still have to do having moved from the country into a town.

thebman · 25-08-2008 9:55pm

My Dad actually had to go meet the courier at the local petrol station today because he couldn't find our house because he was unfamiliar with the area. The courier is DHL for gods sake!!

It was his second attempt at delivery to my house and with the maze of back roads in the area he just got lost.

There are two words that describe perfectly why we need postcodes for satnav systems. "Main Street" How many towns and villages in Ireland have a street called main street? It is ridiculous to say we can get by with addresses when there are duplicate street names and they are much longer than postcodes.

The argument just doesn't hold up. Sure post codes may look obscure when written down because they don't seem to relate to anything but there is a system behind them and you don't need to remember the post code. You just look up the business you want to go to and they'll have it on their website or in the golden pages or other ad that you see them in. Also if your going to a friends with your sat nav system, he calls out a short code rather than a whole address and you get directed closer to his/her house than you would have if they called out the address.

The only reason not to introduce post codes is ignorance of the problem they solve IMO. There is a reason so many other countries have them and a reason most websites have them as mandatory fields for delivery of goods.

bk · 25-08-2008 11:37pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

start actually getting parcels delivered without spending ten minutes on the phone and then standing outside the door waving at couriers - something I still have to do having moved from the country into a town.

Hell, I live two miles from O'Connell St in Dublin City Centre and I still have to do this!!!

Just shows how bad the situation is.

garydubh · 26-08-2008 9:55am

bk wrote: »

Hell, I live two miles from O'Connell St in Dublin City Centre and I still have to do this!!!

Just shows how bad the situation is.

It would be easy for those who are in doubt to believe that SatNav's are just a gadget and not a necessary tool. SatNav's are now an essential commercial tool in Ireland. To maximise their use and the fuel economies they offer we must eleiminate the ambiguity of Irish adresses - this is what Post Codes will do for Emergency Services, Tourists, Couriers, furniture delivery companies, Argos/We/Catalogue companies etc and many services providers such as ESB, Telecoms, Gas, Plumbers, electricians, Pitza Deliveries, Flower Deliveries and the many other you are thinking of right now.

If anyone is in doubt as to the value of this or just want to check how it works - just conatct me and we can arrange for you to have a load of a Garmin SatNav with PON Codes working on it to try it out - just e-mail info@gpsireland.ie - mention this blog and we will set it up.

Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

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