Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

Hotblack Desiato · 20-08-2008 12:01am

The acronym PONC is extremely unfortunate. I have to agree also, the website is crap!

garydubh · 20-08-2008 8:34am

ninja900 wrote: »

The acronym PONC is extremely unfortunate. I have to agree also, the website is crap!

The Irish Language is not unfortunate in any way - PONC -prounced "Punk" is the Irish word for Point. Perhaps being of "Ninja" extraction you did not understand this.

We now have your negative comments and they are appreciated and noted- more importantly though we do not have your opinion on the PON Code itself which is the centre of this discussion- that would be very much appreciated.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-08-2008 12:31am

garydubh wrote: »

The Irish Language is not unfortunate in any way

Oh, my mistake, I didn't realise I was viewing an Irish language website, all the English words confused me :rolleyes: I hate the token plonking of Irish words (especially acronyms) into English text.

- PONC -prounced "Punk" is the Irish word for Point.

PONC pronounced Ponce is a synonym for pervert.

Perhaps being of "Ninja" extraction you did not understand this.

Huh?
How many Irish people who have had 13 years of daily instruction in the Irish language, as I have had, understand the word "ponc" ?

SeanW · 21-08-2008 1:18am

I don't care what they call it. I just want a postcode system fast so that I can stop giving directions to delivery people etc "on the road from Longford out to Grandard, turn right at this crossroads look for a house with a blue car outside the front door ... "
I had to do that a couple of days ago with a delivery man. I swear it's like flippin' Nicaragua or something.

garydubh · 21-08-2008 8:11am

ninja900 wrote: »

Huh?

How many Irish people who have had 13 years of daily instruction in the Irish language, as I have had, understand the word "ponc" ?

Winja - never mind 13 years - look back around 13 days here and it is explained. Its worth reading into things - it always makes thing clearer! If you still don't like it - then use the full term - "PON Code" - all explained here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/findoutmore.php

garydubh · 21-08-2008 8:23am

SeanW wrote: »

I don't care what they call it. I just want a postcode system fast so that I can stop giving directions to delivery people etc "on the road from Longford out to Grandard, turn right at this crossroads look for a house with a blue car outside the front door ... "
I had to do that a couple of days ago with a delivery man. I swear it's like flippin' Nicaragua or something.

Sean - send your delivery man to www.irishpostcodes.ie and we can give him a Garmin Nuvi 700 series SatNav with PON Codes working on it - just give him the PON Code for your loaction - he punches it into the SatNav and no directions needed - the SatNav takes him to the door - "arriving at W5K 59VN on left" see here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/useponconsatnav.php

bk · 22-08-2008 11:21am

The extreme need for post codes was proven to me over the weekend.

I was heading to classic furniture and woodies on the Malahide Road, didn't know exactly where it was, the GPS was almost useless, given the address from the woodies website, the closest it could get me was "The Malahide" road. That is fecking useful, the road being a few miles long, almost missed the turn off.

Again later heading to Airside, the GPS didn't know the address, just a very long road.

Had I been able to get a PONC from these companies websites, it would have been very simple matter to input it into the GPS (much quicker then entering an address) and I would have been taken straight there, even if the GPS didn't know the address.

We really do desperately need some sort of postcodes, preferably something like Garys PONC.

thebman · 22-08-2008 11:29am

Yeah I had a courier deliverying something to my parents house ring for directions yesterday and it was horrible trying to describe where to go as my parents live in the country side.

Basically I ended up saying, its the last house on the left just before the blind bend and I'll ask my da to stand by the side of the road to wave you down.

Well you try directing someone to around here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.267247,-7.596767&spn=0.004274,0.009656&z=17

and you know why we need postcodes in this fooking country. Courier said he couldn't find the place and he'd be back tomorrow because he had another delivery to make in town by the end of the day.

Pgibson · 22-08-2008 12:53pm

I have two Polish girls renting a house in rural Co. Galway.

There are no house numbers in rural Ireland,much less post codes.

I had to put a "funny" memorable name on the house in order that they
could receive any mail at all!

This country is still in the Dark Ages.

.

garydubh · 22-08-2008 7:25pm

brim4brim wrote: »

Yeah I had a courier deliverying something to my parents house ring for directions yesterday and it was horrible trying to describe where to go as my parents live in the country side.

Basically I ended up saying, its the last house on the left just before the blind bend and I'll ask my da to stand by the side of the road to wave you down.

Well you try directing someone to around here:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.267247,-7.596767&spn=0.004274,0.009656&z=17

and you know why we need postcodes in this fooking country. Courier said he couldn't find the place and he'd be back tomorrow because he had another delivery to make in town by the end of the day.

Yes it is approximated that around 3% of all courier deliveries are unsuccessful in Ireland for this reason - that means no delivery within the specified time as apid for, extra fuel costs for the courier - probably an additional phone bill for the courier/client and the extra cost of returning a second time or the recipient having to go to the courier's depot. An what if you want something collected in a Rural Area after selling it on ebay?? These are all the things that PON Codes were developed to resolve.

We are now at the stage that all the important users have tested and agreed that PON Codes are desirable and work very well. Garmin have supported the testing and over the next few weeks we will make a case to Garmin to implement PON Codes on all their units. Anyone who wishes to have their opinion registered for viewing by Garmin please complete the feedback here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/feedback.php

The more the merrier!

SeanW · 22-08-2008 10:09pm

I got my PON code the other day, but I don't know if competing couriers like DHL use it, or more importantly the emergency services, if I ever needed them.

garydubh · 23-08-2008 10:19am

SeanW wrote: »

I got my PON code the other day, but I don't know if competing couriers like DHL use it, or more importantly the emergency services, if I ever needed them.

SeanW - yes indeed we are just at the beginning - they have all tested PON Codes and know what they are and how to use them. So if you start using PON Codes yourself then - Couriers and Emergency services will do so also. Again, we are now nearing the end of the testing phase - so next step is to make available widely on Garmin SatNav's - everyone's feedback will help this process - please complete here: http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/feedback.php

oscarBravo · 24-08-2008 9:19pm

Someone asked me earlier how the emergency services find rural houses in France and Denmark. Can't answer for France, but here in Denmark it seems that every road, including minor rural ones, has a name, and every house has a street number - somewhat similar to the US approach. Also, mailboxes are required to have the resident's name on them.

Could we do this? Yes, but an approach like Gary's is a lot less disruptive and a lot more scalable.

plodder · 25-08-2008 9:00am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'd like to see it become the de facto post code standard for Ireland. While ComReg et al have sat around and talked about it for years, someone actually did some work and came up with something that works. Again, it may not be perfect, but if the only flaw that can be found with it is that it's a couple of digits too long, I think that says a lot.

Being a couple of digits too long is quite a major flaw for a post code IMO. I agree that the government's performance has been lamentable on this. But, rather than just picking the best (and only) system that is currently out there, I'd prefer to see an in depth analysis of all the possibilties before deciding on an official system. What I would do, would be to fund some research say in one of the universities into the subject, where they would specify a number of different types of system, and then a group could decide, which one best fits the requirements.

Maybe, Gary can correct me on this, but I assume his business is trying to make some money out of this (nothing wrong with that of course), but I think that will hinder the uptake of his system (like if the GPS units have to be sourced from him). Even if ultimately, it is decided that a system like Gary's is the best way to go, I think it should be completely unencumbered by licenses, and be implementable freely by anyone.

BTW. On your last post, I just noticed in some parts of the country, there is an effort underway to identify all local roads. In Mayo, I have noticed signs going up like "L123456" identifying even the tiniest boreens.

LordSutch · 25-08-2008 9:13am

Are PONC codes the only show in Town? or are there any other Postcode ideas/ systems being considered and tested by the powers that be?

garydubh · 25-08-2008 11:50am

plodder wrote: »

Being a couple of digits too long is quite a major flaw for a post code IMO. I agree that the government's performance has been lamentable on this. But, rather than just picking the best (and only) system that is currently out there, I'd prefer to see an in depth analysis of all the possibilties before deciding on an official system. What I would do, would be to fund some research say in one of the universities into the subject, where they would specify a number of different types of system, and then a group could decide, which one best fits the requirements.

Maybe, Gary can correct me on this, but I assume his business is trying to make some money out of this (nothing wrong with that of course), but I think that will hinder the uptake of his system (like if the GPS units have to be sourced from him). Even if ultimately, it is decided that a system like Gary's is the best way to go, I think it should be completely unencumbered by licenses, and be implementable freely by anyone.

BTW. On your last post, I just noticed in some parts of the country, there is an effort underway to identify all local roads. In Mayo, I have noticed signs going up like "L123456" identifying even the tiniest boreens.

Plodder: what you are recommending is what has already happened over the last 4 years - i.e. a Post Code board was appointed, consultants were employed, proposals were reviewed and recommendations were made - yet nothing has been implemented - why - because the system they recommeneded would cost 50 million to implement, uses general areas as post codes which does not satisfy the requirements of the business community, requires substantial databases which would take time to create and cost significant amounts to maintain and does not address the issues experienced with the UK system over the last 50 years.

Why did we create PON Codes - to avoid all the issues highlighted above, to allow a system be implemented quickly and efficiently and above all else to assist the 0.5 million commercial vehicles wasting fuel on our roads daily trying to find places.

Are we hoping to make money out of it? - our business is GPS - we want to make SatNav's more easily used and to their full commercial potential in Ireland - we make a living from empowering people with GPS.

On the old chestnut of the number of Characters in the Post Code. We have postal zones in Dublin with just 2 characters that define areas with hundreds of thousands of houses. There are Post Codes with up to 7 charcaters in the UK which define areas with up to 40 houses - which in cities are small areas but in the country this can be a substantial square area.

So the number of characters is related to the resolution required. The less characters, the more houses have the same code and the less valauable the code is for delivery management and navigation or emergency services.

We do not need teams of students to tell us what number of characters we need in our Post Code - we just need to know how accurate we want to be with our code and this is defined by the purposes it is to be put to.

Plodder - you keep bringing this up - please sit down and try work it through for yourself - first decide what resolution is required (dictated by uses and not just delivering the Post) and then design a system to match that resolution.

It has all been done by many people in Ireland already - no need to start this all over again adding another 4 years to implementation.

A National post code system will be implemeted in Ireland eventually - this may be PON Codes - however, even if it is not there will be no prison sentences for anyone taking the benefit of PON Codes in the mean time - they are free of Tariff, Penalty and Prison Sentence to use!!!

garydubh · 25-08-2008 11:59am

ArthurF wrote: »

Are PONC codes the only show in Town? or are there any other Postcode ideas/ systems being considered and tested by the powers that be?

There were several proposals made to Government and the consultants recommended 3 different types - one of which was a coordinate based system like PON Codes.

The no.1 recommended system, which has been subjected to cost benefit analysis by Dept Of Comms. for the last 12 months, has 6 characters but only defines areas which could be up to 6km square in rural areas - thereby making it useless for emergency, doctor or delivery services outside Dublin.

Another system which was privately promoted by a member of the Government's own Post Code Management Board is also based on coordinates but was shown to be ill conceived and unworkable recently when it was shown that with this system "D0G FACE" could be someone's Post Code.

Of course, the longer this indecision goes on, the more ideas will pop up and the more confusion will reign!!!

Right now PON Codes are the only workable system available and in use www.irishpostcodes.ie

plodder · 25-08-2008 12:05pm

garydubh wrote: »

There were several proposals made to Government and the consultants recommeded 3 different types - one of which was a coordinate based system like PON Codes.

The no.1 recommended system, subjected to cost benefit analysis by Dept Of Comms. for the last 12 months, has 6 characters but only defines areas which could be up to 6km square in rural areas - thereby making it useless for emergency, doctor or delivery services outside Dublin.

Another system developed by a member of the Government's own Post Code Management Board is also based on coordinates but was shown to be ill conceived and unworkable recently.

Do you have details of all these proposals? As far as I was aware, nothing has been published, and therefore possible (for people like me) to evaluate.

garydubh · 25-08-2008 12:26pm

plodder wrote: »

Do you have details of all these proposals? As far as I was aware, nothing has been published, and therefore possible (for people like me) to evaluate.

You will have to contact Dept Of Comms - all the info I have I have seen on and off over the last 3/4 years - there is no single repository of all this info except with Dep of Comms

plodder · 25-08-2008 1:39pm

garydubh wrote: »

You will have to contact Dept Of Comms - all the info I have I have seen on and off over the last 3/4 years - there is no single repository of all this info except with Dep of Comms

So, nothing has been published then. For all we know, they haven't really done any significant work at all. The most I have heard is a system consisting of three letters and three digits, which is not a description (of a system) at all. How do we know the consultants have done a good job, that the recommended system was the best one, or that it really would have cost €50 million? There are plenty of vested interests involved in this whole business, not least An Post, who seriously downplayed the usefulness of the GeoDirectory, when asked by Minister Dempsey back in 2005.

What I would have liked is independent published research, maybe by academics in different fields like Geography, IT, who might have been able to come up with different and creative solutions to the problem.

plodder · 25-08-2008 2:07pm

garydubh wrote: »

Plodder: what you are recommending is what has already happened over the last 4 years - i.e. a Post Code board was appointed, consultants were employed, proposals were reviewed and recommendations were made - yet nothing has been implemented - why - because the system they recommeneded would cost 50 million to implement, uses general areas as post codes which does not satisfy the requirements of the business community, requires substantial databases which would take time to create and cost significant amounts to maintain and does not address the issues experienced with the UK system over the last 50 years.

Why did we create PON Codes - to avoid all the issues highlighted above, to allow a system be implemented quickly and efficiently and above all else to assist the 0.5 million commercial vehicles wasting fuel on our roads daily trying to find places.

Are we hoping to make money out of it? - our business is GPS - we want to make SatNav's more easily used and to their full commercial potential in Ireland - we make a living from empowering people with GPS.

On the old chestnut of the number of Characters in the Post Code. We have postal zones in Dublin with just 2 characters that define areas with hundreds of thousands of houses. There are Post Codes with up to 7 charcaters in the UK which define areas with up to 40 houses - which in cities are small areas but in the country this can be a substantial square area.

So the number of characters is related to the resolution required. The less characters, the more houses have the same code and the less valauable the code is for delivery management and navigation or emergency services.

We do not need teams of students to tell us what number of characters we need in our Post Code - we just need to know how accurate we want to be with our code and this is defined by the purposes it is to be put to.

Plodder - you keep bringing this up - please sit down and try work it through for yourself - first decide what resolution is required (dictated by uses and not just delivering the Post) and then design a system to match that resolution.

With respect, I think you're missing my point(s). It's not just about the resolution of the code. There are other issues as well, like whether the post code areas should follow existing administrative boundaries or not. These are important questions, that matter to some post code users (eg government, statistical agencies) but not the commercial delivery sector that you care about. It would be ludicrous for the State to adopt a system without considering how well it meets the needs of all users. Even on the resolution question, it isn't a simple fixed trade-off between size of code, and granularity. As I mentioned earlier, there are other ways to encode a position, that might potentially be more efficient than just compressing the latitude and longitude (or other co-ordinate system).

On the issue of urgency (with respect to solving the delivery problem), there's nothing to stop people from getting their own lat/long coordinates (from websites like this one). All satnavs support lat/long co-ordinates. In fact, when it comes to calling out information over the phone, it's arguable that exclusively numeric codes like this are easier to deal with. Calling out letters is always problematic, unless you learn off one of the phonetic alphabets.

garydubh · 25-08-2008 4:50pm

Plodder you are talking around in circles. First recommending a system with minimum characters and now finally recommending Lat/long with a minimum of 14 characters and not mentioning which version of Lat/long to be used.

Your comments are now reactionary and you are not thinking things through and if I may say so starting at least 4 years too late!

What are you talking about administartive areas for - they have nothing to do with Post Codes and if you were to relate Post Codes to Admin Areas then we will all have to change our Post Codes every time that administrative areas change - which they do !

Geographers/IT specialists etc etc - they all have already been involved including Central Statistics office, GIS persons etc etc etc - I personally fall into several of those brackets.

Look this is not some academic project to fulfill a PhD requirement - it is the real world where commercial opertators (which I think you have some dislike for) are spending more time and fuel delivering goods and services every day that they need do. PON Codes can save up to 15% straight away in fuel costs and reduce the 3% failed courier deliveries daily to nil.

Go back to the drawing board if you wish - do it all over again - but please realise that the pens you are using at the drawing board are getting more expensive to deliver because of the absence of Post Codes!

Anyhow, we cannot start all over again just because you were not ready the first time...

Gurgle · 25-08-2008 5:56pm

garydubh wrote: »

There were several proposals made to Government and the consultants recommended 3 different types - one of which was a coordinate based system like PON Codes.

The no.1 recommended system, which has been subjected to cost benefit analysis by Dept Of Comms. for the last 12 months, has 6 characters but only defines areas which could be up to 6km square in rural areas - thereby making it useless for emergency, doctor or delivery services outside Dublin.

^^ & this is why millions have been spent and we still don't have postcodes.

A perfectly functional system could be put together on a friday afternoon by a 2nd year maths student with a decent set of maps and a copy of the most recent census data on population density.

Though I still maintain that it would be an afternoon better spent in the pub, postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

thebman · 25-08-2008 8:37pm

Gurgle wrote: »

^^ & this is why millions have been spent and we still don't have postcodes.

A perfectly functional system could be put together on a friday afternoon by a 2nd year maths student with a decent set of maps and a copy of the most recent census data on population density.

Though I still maintain that it would be an afternoon better spent in the pub, postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

Are you drunk or have you just never used a Satnav in Ireland versus another country.

Irish Satnavs are crap, in Britain you just enter the postcode and go. Its all because of postcodes and inaccurate mapping data that Satnavs are almost useless in this country.

bk · 25-08-2008 8:42pm

plodder wrote: »

Being a couple of digits too long is quite a major flaw for a post code IMO.

I really don't see the problem here, Garys system is 7 digits (or 5 if you want a lower resolution).

Both my landline and my mobile number are 9 digits long and I've no problem remembering them.

UK postcodes are up to 7 characters long also (and are less accurate and much more expensive to run).

US zip codes are 5 digits long, but they have an extended system called ZIP+4 which is 9 digits long and gives accuracy less then Garys system.

The other proposed Irish system is 6 digits long, far less accurate then Garys system and much more expensive to set up and run.

You can find info about post code systems around the world here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_code

Most are around 7 digits, so no problem here.

BTW, typing a 7 digit code into a GPS, is much easier then typing: "Woodies, Malahide Road, Dublin, Ireland"

plodder wrote: »

Maybe, Gary can correct me on this, but I assume his business is trying to make some money out of this (nothing wrong with that of course), but I think that will hinder the uptake of his system (like if the GPS units have to be sourced from him). Even if ultimately, it is decided that a system like Gary's is the best way to go, I think it should be completely unencumbered by licenses, and be implementable freely by anyone.

I would assume that if the Government choose Gary's system (and I hope they do), that they would buy the license off him and publish the algorithm implementation and spec license free.

I have no objection to Gary making a few bob off this.

Gurgle wrote:

Though I still maintain that it would be an afternoon better spent in the pub, postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

I completely disagree, IMO Sat navs make it more necessary, not less. Over the last fews weeks I've been using GPS a lot (TomTom and iPhone) and I've found actually accurately finding addresses very hard. The GPS rarely has the actual address and instead directs you to the rough area of the road, which can be5 miles long (my earlier examples of the Malahide Road and M1).

Aothern example is my own apartment, not 2 miles from O'Connell St, it was built just over 1 year ago, but still isn't listed in GPS systems, so most taxis and delivery companies end up driving up and down the road for 15 minutes before calling me and I need to give them detailed directions and that is in Dublin city!!! I hate to think what it is like in rural areas.

turgon · 25-08-2008 9:29pm

bk wrote: »

Both my landline and my mobile number are 9 digits long and I've no problem remembering them.

I remember a good few more numbers than my own as well. Believe it or not folks, a 7 digit PONC code can be remembered. If you wana find a problem with the system dont let it be this.

Gurgle wrote: »

A perfectly functional system could be put together on a friday afternoon by a 2nd year maths student with a decent set of maps and a copy of the most recent census data on population density

Well maybe not precisely but the fact is that this has taken way too long.

oscarBravo · 25-08-2008 9:39pm

Gurgle wrote: »

... postcodes are obsolete with the proliferation of sat-navs.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for this. I've used sat-navs here and in the UK, and being able to type in a postcode over there is a godsend, compared to typing in a street address here (if you're going to a street, and you have the spelling right, and the street address is accurate enough).

I note with interest that the bulk of the objections to PON codes come from people who don't personally have a problem that it will solve. This is almost certainly the reasoning that has led to us not having them: An Post don't want them, and have successfully blocked their introduction.

If you don't think we need postcodes, don't use one - but don't complain if the rest of us, who most certainly do need them, carry on without you and start actually getting parcels delivered without spending ten minutes on the phone and then standing outside the door waving at couriers - something I still have to do having moved from the country into a town.

thebman · 25-08-2008 9:55pm

My Dad actually had to go meet the courier at the local petrol station today because he couldn't find our house because he was unfamiliar with the area. The courier is DHL for gods sake!!

It was his second attempt at delivery to my house and with the maze of back roads in the area he just got lost.

There are two words that describe perfectly why we need postcodes for satnav systems. "Main Street" How many towns and villages in Ireland have a street called main street? It is ridiculous to say we can get by with addresses when there are duplicate street names and they are much longer than postcodes.

The argument just doesn't hold up. Sure post codes may look obscure when written down because they don't seem to relate to anything but there is a system behind them and you don't need to remember the post code. You just look up the business you want to go to and they'll have it on their website or in the golden pages or other ad that you see them in. Also if your going to a friends with your sat nav system, he calls out a short code rather than a whole address and you get directed closer to his/her house than you would have if they called out the address.

The only reason not to introduce post codes is ignorance of the problem they solve IMO. There is a reason so many other countries have them and a reason most websites have them as mandatory fields for delivery of goods.

bk · 25-08-2008 11:37pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

start actually getting parcels delivered without spending ten minutes on the phone and then standing outside the door waving at couriers - something I still have to do having moved from the country into a town.

Hell, I live two miles from O'Connell St in Dublin City Centre and I still have to do this!!!

Just shows how bad the situation is.

garydubh · 26-08-2008 9:55am

bk wrote: »

Hell, I live two miles from O'Connell St in Dublin City Centre and I still have to do this!!!

Just shows how bad the situation is.

It would be easy for those who are in doubt to believe that SatNav's are just a gadget and not a necessary tool. SatNav's are now an essential commercial tool in Ireland. To maximise their use and the fuel economies they offer we must eleiminate the ambiguity of Irish adresses - this is what Post Codes will do for Emergency Services, Tourists, Couriers, furniture delivery companies, Argos/We/Catalogue companies etc and many services providers such as ESB, Telecoms, Gas, Plumbers, electricians, Pitza Deliveries, Flower Deliveries and the many other you are thinking of right now.

If anyone is in doubt as to the value of this or just want to check how it works - just conatct me and we can arrange for you to have a load of a Garmin SatNav with PON Codes working on it to try it out - just e-mail info@gpsireland.ie - mention this blog and we will set it up.

Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

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