A Discussion of the Rules (July 14th 2008)

PHB wrote: »

I think you've read too much into the change from discussion to incident.
The discussion was removed, afaik, because we're not saying that if you are talking about Alonso in general and mention his game last week we're going to move the post.
Incident is more specific, because it refers to any incident in the match. That would include, basically anything that happens, like a kick of the ball

You see you said "last week" there, and PSI stated what she meant by "Incident" i.e. anything that was a big decision like peno, goal disallowed etc but form, subs, formation etc is all ok, its not that hard to follow common sense identifies incident, saying incident could mean kicking a ball is just silly.

Your changing what PSI said and why she changed the rules and rowing back on that change now, its so complicated its crazy.

It can be so simple:

Any big incidents that are any way contentious e.g. penalties, offsides, sending off's etc have to go into the match thread

General team discussion including formation, subs etc are fine in superthreads.

I'm sure thats what PSI meant and I think it would be fine, I don't see why you think thats a bad idea???

Why don't ye just discuss the bloody matches in the matches thread instead of coming on here whining about it without even giving it a go FFS.

redspider wrote: »

Its quite simple folks, let people post anything about Club XYZ in a Club XYZ "super" thread, whether its matches or whatever. They can post match stuff in a match thread if they want and as they so choose. So let the poster choose.

That will give one less thing for the over-stretched mods to look out for. The rule is unpoliceable anyway as talking about Club XYZ without mentioning a match, the last match, is a contradiction in terms, as of course fans will want to talk about the most recent match as it is relevant, etc.

I vote to change the "rule".

Mods,

Can we have a poll?

Mr Alan wrote: »

rival fans posting negative things about teams/matches in superthreads starts arguments

its quite simple

people just ****ing moan and bitch

Well, rival fans will post those things anyway. Having match 'boundaries' isnt gonna stop that.

It may be simple in concept, but it makes discussion in the superthread unworkable and its unpolcieable. What happens if a post is 46% match, 54% general issues.

I'm not moaning, just pointing out the plain impracticality of it all. Let people choose, simple.

Btw, the superthread aspect has problems in itself. Boards.ie should really have sub-forums for each of the major clubs as that would allow much more granularity in terms of discussions. There can be inter-club forums as well to discuss all things common. As a busy forum, perhaps that is the sensible way to go.

Redspider

OPENROAD wrote: »

Slightly confused, during say, the Arsenal match today, are we allowed to discuss the match/score in the Arsenal thread or must it only be discussed in the match threads i.e. weekend match thead?

The basic rule would be

Starting Line Ups
Predictions
Match going on discussion (Billy scored, this formation ain't working)
Post-match analysis
Discussions relating to the match

So the answer would be no.

Now say you were talking about Arsenals chances of winning the league after an injury in the match. That's fine to discuss in the Arsenal thread.
The superthreads are there to cover whats not left over, and to avoid have 50 random threads like, how will Arsenal do after this injury, I'm worried about the form of blah.
They are not meant to be the entirity of the discussion surrounding the club.

Wreck wrote: »

Well I made a post in the arsenal super thread saying that I was excited and optimistic about the start of the season, and that I hoped Van Persie would remain injury free. I then predicted a 3-0 win today. What was the point of moving that to the match day thread?

Well to be honest, I saw the prediction part and moved it while scrolling up. There's no really an option to spilt posts and move them.

This stinks of over modding when theres no need. I mean, its ridiculous. Are yea really going to go through each super thread with a fine comb and move all comments about matches to a different thread ?

Well no, I'd imagine after we let it settle in we'll just delete any off topic posts. I was just being nice and moving them all which in retrospect was the wrong approach as it implied lieniancy.

Jazzy wrote: »

i think the mods are trying to stop the tribalism.... on a soccer forum....

i think no matter wat they do it is going to happen anyway and the same old problems will arise but just in different threads.
the problem is the people that cause the issues - not the structure and rules themselves

The one big problem is not tribalism. It's ownership. People think the United threads are for United fans. We've told them countless times they are not. It doesn't stop. It causes the most trouble on this forum. This will end this sense of ownership.

Tusky wrote: »

Can we not have a general match thread for discussion of ALL matches but also allow discussions of matches in the superthreads ?

redspider wrote: »

Its quite simple folks, let people post anything about Club XYZ in a Club XYZ "super" thread, whether its matches or whatever. They can post match stuff in a match thread if they want and as they so choose. So let the poster choose.

The idea of a duality was discussed, but ultimately it won't solve the problems. People will still post in the superthreads that aren't Liverpool fans. If anything it will encourage the sense of ownership, and I'd wager any amount of money that if we had that system within the next 2 months somebody would say these exact words
'Go post in the other thread about this'

The rule is unpoliceable anyway as talking about Club XYZ without mentioning a match, the last match, is a contradiction in terms, as of course fans will want to talk about the most recent match as it is relevant, etc.

That for me is the most absurd argument.
Any post whatsoever that is off-topic gets deleted. Problem solved

ghouldaddy07 wrote: »

while the reasons behind the change are valid I did prefer the way things were before and found superthreads to be the best way of getting the information or specific disscusion I wanted and enjoyed having both the match thread and superthread as two diffrent disscussions even if the subject overlaped.

But it wasn't working out. Every 3rd page there would be a flame war about who is better, Torres or Ronaldo. Then people would complain and report the posts about people talking about Ronaldo in the Liverpool thread/people trolling. Even when we aggressively monitored these threads, creating new threads.

We really don't have a lot of choice in this regards anymore. We have to change from the previous system.
The superthreads were becoming a problem. Not only a problem on the server, not only a problem for discussion (especially after matches) they were a problem for modding. It ended most reasonable debate.
In the Liverpool thread before the match, there was a debate going on about Alonso. I guarantee you that if somebody came in and says the following thing

'The match today showed how Liverpool are not good enough and that Keane is a terrible buy'

that debate would vanish in a spilt second, with 3 pages of crap about debates we've all already had before with 10 reported posts most of which don't have anything wrong with them, except for the fact that people don't like others posting in their thread.

Villain wrote: »

You see you said "last week" there, and PSI stated what she meant by "Incident" i.e. anything that was a big decision like peno, goal disallowed etc but form, subs, formation etc is all ok, its not that hard to follow common sense identifies incident, saying incident could mean kicking a ball is just silly.

Your changing what PSI said and why she changed the rules and rowing back on that change now, its so complicated its crazy.

It can be so simple:

Any big incidents that are any way contentious e.g. penalties, offsides, sending off's etc have to go into the match thread

General team discussion including formation, subs etc are fine in superthreads.

I'm sure thats what PSI meant and I think it would be fine, I don't see why you think thats a bad idea???

PHB what you think?

PHB wrote: »

I'd imagine after we let it settle in we'll just delete any off topic posts.

Any post whatsoever that is off-topic gets deleted. Problem solved

We really don't have a lot of choice in this regards anymore.

Well, thats just it, people will post genuinely what they think is relevant and some mod will delete it in an instant. That is stopping discussion and it will be subjective and we will have the usual situation of mods acting hitler-like. The soccer forum on boards.ie is becoming over regulated and people have moved and will continue to move with their "feet" (fingers) and discuss elsewhere. People always have a choice.

GuanYin > I have no problem being a hardass

Thats all the soccer forum needs. A hardass mod. The mods can have their own soccer forum if they want to. A nice quiet one perhaps.

Mr Alan> i'd reccommend giving the new measures a chance for longer than 1 league match (the same thing i would reccommend when it comes to you verdict on the robbie keane transfer btw)

Well Millersangel, if you understood the Robbie Keane situation I would let you off! He has played in 6 matches, by the way. And if you read my and some others peoples posts on it, you'd realise is that I havent given a verdict on Robbie, its just that from what we know of Robbie in the past, and what Liverpool did last season, Robbie is not the solution. He suits a 4-4-2 and we've been playing 4-2-3-1. I'm sure even you will comprehend it if you read it several times. Mind you, rules such as 'match discussion goes here', 'no match discussion goes there' is easier to understand. It still doesnt make it a good rule. And one match is enough to know that.

Mr Alan> if you find the new rules too restictive in the mean time, well, you dont have to post.

Okay .... just might do that.

What the hell is wrong with people?

You have to post match discussions in match threads.
You can post other stuff in the superthread.

That's over regulation? That's Hitler like?
Grow up for crying out loud.

Well, thats just it, people will post genuinely what they think is relevant and some mod will delete it in an instant.

So its not hard to regulate then? Ok I'm glad we've dropped this argument.
People will catch on pretty quickly, its a fairly simple system. It will stop discussion once. People will then realise, oh I was meant to post it in the other thread, and then they will post it there. You acknowledge this yourself when you post

Mind you, rules such as 'match discussion goes here', 'no match discussion goes there' is easier to understand.

The soccer forum on boards.ie is becoming over regulated and people have moved and will continue to move with their "feet" (fingers) and discuss elsewhere. People always have a choice.

The soccer forum gets busier and busier all the time, indeed the influx of people is part of the reason we need to move away from the superthreads, because the amount of posts on them is becoming astronomical. So far I've seen about 5 people have problems with this.

---

Any big incidents that are any way contentious e.g. penalties, offsides, sending off's etc have to go into the match thread

General team discussion including formation, subs etc are fine in superthreads.

I'm sure thats what PSI meant and I think it would be fine, I don't see why you think thats a bad idea???

As I said, I think you've read too much into the change in the word incident. As for the proposal itself,
That would be absurdly difficult to moderate and regulate as most posts would no doubt refer to both aspects. In reality, the system would break down. It however would fix some of the problems.

Can somebody tell me exactly, what their problem is with posting in a match thread? Not the overregulation whatever, an actual problem they have.

The forum should be to help discussion and encourage people to post these do the opposite IMO

Boggles wrote: »

Why don't ye just discuss the bloody matches in the matches thread instead of coming on here whining about it without even giving it a go FFS.

Mr Alan wrote: »

its quite simple, and an idea i think is at least worth trying for a while, as opposed to ****ing moaning the first match week.

its quite simple and if people gave it a go I'm sure it would work and help take out a lot of the clutter in the superthread, but as usual, people just ****ing moan and bitch.

annoying.

Any idea how annoying it is to be accused of bitching and moaning for asking questions and discussing the new rules in the rules discussion thread?

PHB wrote: »

But it wasn't working out. Every 3rd page there would be a flame war about who is better, Torres or Ronaldo. Then people would complain and report the posts about people talking about Ronaldo in the Liverpool thread/people trolling. Even when we aggressively monitored these threads, creating new threads.

You are still going to have to deal with flame wars like this, whether on the match threads or the super threads. Moving all discussion even vaguely related to match to the match day thread won't stop people arguing and reporting posts.

PHB wrote: »

In the Liverpool thread before the match, there was a debate going on about Alonso. I guarantee you that if somebody came in and says the following thing

'The match today showed how Liverpool are not good enough and that Keane is a terrible buy'

that debate would vanish in a spilt second, with 3 pages of crap about debates we've all already had before with 10 reported posts most of which don't have anything wrong with them, except for the fact that people don't like others posting in their thread.

So now instead of the three pages of crap being confined to the Liverpool thread we are all going to be subjected to it on the match discussion thread instead? I really don't see the point.

PHB wrote: »

The one big problem is not tribalism. It's ownership. People think the United threads are for United fans. We've told them countless times they are not. It doesn't stop. It causes the most trouble on this forum. This will end this sense of ownership.

This will only increase the sense of ownership. Surely match discussion was one of the main reasons rival fans would post in the superthreads? Now that this is no longer allowed, the superthreads will be bereft of oppososition fans, thus increasing the sense of ownership of the threads.

GuanYin wrote: »

How about as an alternative, I ban anyone accusing another person in a superthread of trolling or trying to deny a rival supporter the chance to make thir point without jumping on them...for say..... ohhhh a month, on the spot, along with anyone else who responds to the accusations.

This seems like a very good idea. If people aren't willing to let others offer different opinions what is the point of having them on the forum in the first place?

redspider wrote: »

Its quite simple folks, let people post anything about Club XYZ in a Club XYZ "super" thread, whether its matches or whatever. They can post match stuff in a match thread if they want and as they so choose. So let the poster choose.

This tbh.

PHB wrote: »

Maybe its because people can't get simple ideas into their head.
Match discussion in one thread.
Anything else in another thread.
A 5 year old child could understand that.

Pretty much every single other soccer forum on the internet has a match thread where all the match discussions go!! Jesus christ like.

Why? Saying the discussion should go in one place does not dis-encourage discussion. It's just saying, go to the proper place.

Well a 4-year old will understand that match issues ARE relevant to a clubs thread. They are.

On other soccer forums, the mods there do NOT delete posts because someone may have mentioned a match in a post in a non-match thread. So perhaps its not the rule per se, perhaps its the implementation and the policing attempt of it. Stop the moving, stop the deletions, let people post match issues in match threads and match issues in non-match threads. Thats the way it was. Encourage people to post match issues in match threads by all means.

Deletions of posts, moving of posts, bannings for people, and now pages and pages of discussions about the rules does discourage discussion. With too much red tape, too much hassle, people go elsewhere, simple.