DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

sinnerboy · 24-07-2008 4:36pm

Chimpster wrote: »

Sinner, would tubes have made much difference I wonder? Had you direct south orientation?

Yes . When i get a mo ( not today) i'll input values and report back

SE orientation 35 degree roof slope

.

sinnerboy · 24-07-2008 4:41pm

MickLimk wrote: »

Sinnerboy:
How does the DEAP calculate the input level? In my experience, that 1974 kWh/yr for 6m2 is on the low side...

Input manufacturers data into 6 or 7 cells + read DEAP manual for orientation - DEAP does the rest . Don't mean to sound smart alec - best answer I got

sydthebeat · 24-07-2008 4:49pm

thanks SB, you havent misread what i was asking.

its basically a follow on question that came into my head after reading about the 2 passive houses in tullow, carlow.

These houses are passively heated with a small plug and play heat pump in the HRV system as backup. The HRV system all accounts for all hot water needs as well.

So my reading is these passive standard houses wouldnt comply with TGD L as proposed, assuming their small heat pump doesnt meet the 1710 kwhr/m2/yr requirement (the dwellings are 171 m2 each). Fairly hard if the space heating load is only 10kwhr/m2/yr.

What issues will that throw up for certifiers, should it be evidently so??

Imagine the scenario, the client possess a passive cert from the phpp institute...... but muggins the certifier tells him that his dwelling doesnt meet energy conservation regulations....

is this really a possibility? or am i reading things completely wrong.

sinnerboy · 24-07-2008 4:53pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

is this really a possibility? or am i reading things completely wrong.

yes . no .

sydthebeat · 24-07-2008 4:55pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

yes . no .

madness..!

sinnerboy · 24-07-2008 4:59pm

Unless we take possession of a situation where the state abrogates it's responsibility for building control . It's shoved onto the professions .

So , taking advantage of caveats ( substantial compliance) common sense dictates such passive houses are meeting the essential requirements of the regulations . Cert on that basis . Would make a good test case if cert was challenged .

( I confess , not terribly keen to play Oliver Twist myself however )

No6 · 25-07-2008 10:46pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

So my reading is these passive standard houses wouldnt comply with TGD L as proposed, assuming their small heat pump doesnt meet the 1710 kwhr/m2/yr requirement (the dwellings are 171 m2 each). Fairly hard if the space heating load is only 10kwhr/m2/yr.

is this really a possibility? or am i reading things completely wrong.

Without actually checking (which i havn't) I think you could be reading things slightly wrongly government policy is to move towards passive houses by 2016 heard that from Envornment Minister Gormley at the SAN conference last tuesday so I think passive houses will comply. I think his address is probably on the DOLEG website. Passive is the way forward ditch the heating systems now!!! speaking of which has anyone used the Pasive house calculation package.

No6 · 25-07-2008 10:56pm

I may also be reading things slightly wrongly here too but 10KwHr/m²/yr for a 200m² house is 2000KwHr per year so if a secondary heat source gives more than that why not use a multi fuel stove (as opposed to wood pellet only) which can burn wood (or anything else like coal and turf) It complies in spirit but maybe not in practice but then again the price of coal and turf may dictate what is burned in them!! Compliance with Part L will be part of the BER / DEAP report as carried out by a BER assessor so if you have that then don't worry, get a copy of the Cert & report and put it on your compliance file then you're covered (unless you're the assessor too :eek:)

badolepuddytat · 15-08-2008 12:17am

yes i used the PPHP tool (passive house tool). It's like DEAP, except much much more detailed. DEAP has circa 70 entries, many of which are default, PPHP has many many more, thermal bridging is more detailed... There are not defaults... it's not about defaulting if you are not sure, it's more about design tool. The graphs are much much better in terms of figuring out if you need more thermal mass, or smaller windows etc.

what DEAP should be? not if you want it done for less than 000's.

Anyone doing the existing homes? what's it like?

topcatcbr · 15-08-2008 10:45am

I have done 9 existing houses so far. it is actually easier than new. you dont have to chase up as much info as you collect it yourself onsite. Survey takes about 1.5 hrs DEAP takes approx 1.5 hrs. the advisary report approx 0.5 hrs.

It is handy to have 2 computers running when doing the advisary report. 1 to run DEAP and Help file the 2nd to run the advisary report and current building regs at same time. I find if all is running on same pc I get lost and waste time. i run laptop beside office pc. works for me

sinnerboy · 15-08-2008 10:47am

Have you actually issued BER certs TC ?

No6 · 15-08-2008 12:43pm

Are you using the updated version of deap for existing dwellings or are you using the excel spread sheet Topcatcbr?

topcatcbr · 15-08-2008 12:52pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

Have you actually issued BER certs TC ?

I have published certs on HESS side of sei NAS site. its the very same except that the homeowners dont get the certs. They get the advisary report based on assessment for which the cert is published.

You cannot produce advisary report until you publish cert.

topcatcbr · 15-08-2008 12:55pm

No6 wrote: »

Are you using the updated version of deap for existing dwellings or are you using the excel spread sheet Topcatcbr?

Using the same deap software as for new dwellings. the updated software wont be available untill end sept at earliest ASFASIK

sinnerboy · 25-08-2008 5:22pm

Just heard that the new DEAP software , to include for existing houses , will be available from 29th September . I assume ( but don't know for sure ) that it will also contain compliance with TGD L 2007 sections

I will confirm this when I can ( unless anyone else beats me to it

)

Villain · 25-08-2008 5:27pm

I did a test run of an assesment with a friend who is going to do the course and my cardbon rating was higher than my maximum?

No6 · 25-08-2008 5:49pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

Just heard that the new DEAP software , to include for existing houses , will be available from 29th September . I assume ( but don't know for sure ) that it will also contain compliance with TGD L 2007 sections

I will confirm this when I can ( unless anyone else beats me to it )

So where does this leave all those course booked for september, is there any point in doing them is there's no software available??

sinnerboy · 25-08-2008 6:19pm

No6 wrote: »

So where does this leave all those course booked for september, is there any point in doing them is there's no software available??

My course provider put my course back to October

sinnerboy · 25-08-2008 6:21pm

Villain wrote: »

I did a test run of an assesment with a friend who is going to do the course and my cardbon rating was higher than my maximum?

could well be V . Try higher % of low energy lighting . Or wood stove for secondary heat source . Assuming not too late

Chimpster · 25-08-2008 8:43pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

could well be V . Try higher % of low energy lighting . Or wood stove for secondary heat source . Assuming not too late

I've played around with the sample spreadsheet but I keep getting errors... I've mailed SEI but no responce yet.

I have a client and I've specified enough solar to get to 10 Kwh/m2/yr. I've also specified the correct amount of galzing based on new regs. But the spreadsheet wont let me calculate the CPC and MPC.

The house will have a condensing gas boiler, 90% low energy lighting and prob gas secondary heating.

Any of ye have any idea if this will pass the carbon test!?!

Villain · 25-08-2008 9:01pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

could well be V . Try higher % of low energy lighting . Or wood stove for secondary heat source . Assuming not too late

I had 100% low energy and HRV system with heat recovery, it really doesn't like oil burner with Emersion secondary!

sinnerboy · 25-08-2008 9:24pm

Chimpster wrote: »

I've played around with the sample spreadsheet but I keep getting errors... I've mailed SEI but no responce yet.

I have a client and I've specified enough solar to get to 10 Kwh/m2/yr. I've also specified the correct amount of galzing based on new regs. But the spreadsheet wont let me calculate the CPC and MPC.

The house will have a condensing gas boiler, 90% low energy lighting and prob gas secondary heating.

Any of ye have any idea if this will pass the carbon test!?!

Sorry chimpster not familiar with excell DEAP - only the software

Again wood stove secondary source is a bit of a silver bullet

Chimpster · 25-08-2008 9:48pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

Sorry chimpster not familiar with excell DEAP - only the software

Again wood stove secondary source is a bit of a silver bullet

Sinnerboy,

SEI has a trail spreadsheet available with the new part L 'functionality' built in. One of the tabs on the sheet does the calculations for MPC and CPC. However the bloody thing keeps giving me errors, so its useless until I get some feedback from SEI.

Should I be able to calculate these from the current version of DEAP I wonder? Must dig through Part L... yawn....

topcatcbr · 26-08-2008 10:13am

Villain wrote: »

I had 100% low energy and HRV system with heat recovery, it really doesn't like oil burner with Emersion secondary!

Remove the emersion from the data. It is only put in for secondary heating when water cannot be heated from main boiler alone. In other words if you cannot turn on the boiler for hot water only then you put in the emmersion.

Remove any chimneys and put in stoves, remember to adjust the effeciency for the secondary heat source.

sinnerboy · 26-08-2008 10:37am

Chimpster wrote: »

Should I be able to calculate these from the current version of DEAP I wonder? Must dig through Part L... yawn....

if you have DEAP software ( which is set up to verify aspects of TGDL 05 ) input data into it . And then manually adjust MPCDER - i mean by using pencil and paper - you can't "make" the software do it

Jimbo · 02-09-2008 8:02pm

Has anyone done their training online?
I'm tempted to do it online to save taking time off work but do you get the same result?
Is it alot more difficult?

MicktheMan · 11-09-2008 10:26pm

Came accross this scenario recently while doing assessment on new house.
Heat use for heating season (kWh/y) Oct - May = 7500
Peak month (Jan) = 1596 kWh (daily = 51.5kWh and 8 hrs/day gives about 6.5kW)

Boiler installed was 120,000 btu (35kW) condensing with adjusted efficiency of 92.8%. This boiler is clearly way oversized for the job and yet there is no mechanism in DEAP to input boiler size nor does it affect the rating.:cool:

MicktheMan · 12-09-2008 10:08pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

Just heard that the new DEAP software , to include for existing houses , will be available from 29th September . I assume ( but don't know for sure ) that it will also contain compliance with TGD L 2007 sections

I will confirm this when I can ( unless anyone else beats me to it )

I was talking to someone in SEI today and I was told that the new software is now expected in October. I got the impression that it wasn't early October either!! Anyone else hear this?

rosh1 · 15-09-2008 9:28pm

I was just wondering if anyone has been following what is happening in England with their energy performance certificates. It seems fees have fallen to an average of £49-69 as assessors are undercutting each other to get work. After paying for fees, fuel other expenses there is not much left to live on. they are saying that there are too many assessors and the work is drying up as a cert lasts 10 years.

the same could happen here. From what i read elsewhere there are 561 registered assessors with SEI and a furthur 1600 who passed their exams but did not register (of which I am one). And more will probably do the course making the situation worse. That would make too many assessors for the volume of work available.

Most of the work will be done by Engineers/Architects offices and Auctioneers who can hide the BER fee among their overall fee and there will be very little left for any independent assessors. I know two local Auctioneers one a national firm that are offering it and will be offering it with their lettings dept in 2009 and they can inspect the property and do the energy rating at the same time. Kill two birds with the one stone.

i reckon 350 to 400 assessors is all that is really needed to make it sustainable. A lot of people may not recover their course fees.

Does anyone know assessors in England that could throw more light on the situation there, which more than likely will be repeated in Ireland.

DOCARCH · 16-09-2008 2:36pm

What's the story?

Got email Friday re: the formation of the 'Association of Building Energy Rater's'

Got email today re: the formation of 'Energy Assessors Association of Ireland'

Anybody know who/what these people are about and who is behind them?

Seems like a good idea to have some form of association however having two (or more) 'associations', in my opinion, will be a complete waste of time!

It's like the People's Judean Front!

No6 · 16-09-2008 3:21pm

I got the same emails and replied to both looking for more details and I got a reply from one of them, fees are a 150 registrastion fee and 250 per year which was one question I asked, the other relating to who and what wasn't terribly well covered. I intend to send a further email and would want to get a hell of a lot more information before I'd consider joining. I am also an architectural technoligist and have seen the efforts of a number of my collegues in setting up a professional representitive body for AT's. They have 1600 people on their mailing list and have been working very hard for three or four years at this stage and they still havn't looked for a penny so excuse me if I'm very very dubious about the BER effort.

Anyway I want to be in the Peoples Liberation Front of Judea all the others are just rubbish!!!:D

MicktheMan · 16-09-2008 3:43pm

Got 'em too.
I replied looking for the details of the people behind them and have not got any details except "committed individuals who's aim is to expand the energy assessment profession and give us a national association".

I am very wary of such suspicious emails and especially so if the amounts mentioned above are their registration fees etc. What do they need such sums for? (Mental maths, say 100 assessors sign up, then 25k per annum to run an association, 1000 assessors then 250k !!!!)

I'll do it for half that:D

No6 · 16-09-2008 4:21pm

MicktheMan wrote: »

Got 'em too.
I replied looking for the details of the people behind them and have not got any details except "committed individuals who's aim is to expand the energy assessment profession and give us a national association".

I am very wary of such suspicious emails and especially so if the amounts mentioned above are their registration fees etc. What do they need such sums for? (Mental maths, say 100 assessors sign up, then 25k per annum to run an association, 1000 assessors then 250k !!!!)

I'll do it for half that:D

Its not another money making scheme from the poor old BER assessors so far we've had the trainers, SEI, Blower door and thermal imaging selling poeple, every magazine you can think of selling advertising!!! Is there any BER assessors who have at least recouped their initial investment yet!!!

I think we need a represntative body but it should be run by volunteers for free in a transparent manner not another con job!!!!

topcatcbr · 16-09-2008 5:22pm

I got these emails also and same as No 6 replied to both. I do not think that the €400 fee is realistic and smacks of rip off. I am in a couple of other (more established) professional orgs and do not pay this to either.

sinnerboy · 16-09-2008 5:23pm

Did the BER training in Jan . Registered in May . No certs issued yet .

Been offered training to to become an air pressure tester . And GET THIS - to become a renewables installer ( heat pumps , solar panels and WP boilers - 3 day course )

I am self assured enough to admit here that my installation skills amount to replacing a fuse in a plug top .

As a BER Assessor what concerns me now is - what kind of back up / testing instalation "certs" will I be asked to include in my ( eventual ) assessments ?

We need an army of Jedi Knights to sort this one . I will await that before signing any more cheques

DOCARCH · 16-09-2008 6:42pm

Yeah - sounds like a bit of a rip-off at those sort of figures! A big FO I think. I thought, as suggested above, it might be a voluntary association. I wonder what SEIs view on this is?

I suspect these 'associations' are being set up by people who thought they could make a career out of BERs but have now realised the truth! Nice little earner! Don't see any real advantage to it - probably more than enough information here on Boards.

I have been registered since February but have only had 1 enquiry about doing a BER (I have not actually done one!). I suspect SEI may have assessors dropping off the registration list next year?

topcatcbr · 16-09-2008 6:58pm

The uptake has been disappointing to say the least. I did my course in Oct last year and registered in Jan this year. I have done quite a few houses due to the HESS Pilot Scheme (I have recouped some of my initial costs from this) and have had a few enquiries outside this but have only done a couple. I think it will be interesting when SEI do their next assessor workshop. There wear a lot of disenchanted people at the last one. SEI had the excuse it was early days and planned a substantial advertising campaign. apart from a few adverts on the radio and auctioneers mags i haven't heard much. In fact SEI have not been up to speed on any of their commitments with deadline after deadline being pushed back. I haven't heard of anyone doing or advertising BERs on commercial or industrial as of yet.

mantoreilly · 16-09-2008 7:18pm

Can anybody tell me what equipment will be used to carry out assessment of an existing dwelling? Will electronic equipment be used to determine u values of walls?

sinnerboy · 16-09-2008 7:20pm

no - pull down menu of values based on building age

mantoreilly · 18-09-2008 9:10am

That’s bull****.What if there is several types of construction from different periods incorporated into a dwelling or say for example insulation was pumped into a cavity wall and this information was not passed on. Will the assessor have to carry out a destructive test to determine this? Surely there is something electronic out there that can determine individual K and U values.

muffler · 18-09-2008 9:44am

mantoreilly wrote: »

That’s bull****.

And only your second post too. I can see we are going to have some fun with you. If you want to post here be a bit more civilised. Infracted.

No6 · 18-09-2008 9:53am

DOCARCH wrote: »

Yeah - sounds like a bit of a rip-off at those sort of figures! A big FO I think. I thought, as suggested above, it might be a voluntary association. I wonder what SEIs view on this is?

I suspect these 'associations' are being set up by people who thought they could make a career out of BERs but have now realised the truth! Nice little earner! Don't see any real advantage to it - probably more than enough information here on Boards.

I have been registered since February but have only had 1 enquiry about doing a BER (I have not actually done one!). I suspect SEI may have assessors dropping off the registration list next year?

I too have been registered since late last year and so far have had few enquiries and virtually all of them were for people with existing houses looking for BER certs on them. In fact I have turned off my google add words campagin due to the extremely poor response.

People do not understand what the BER cert is and what its for at all. I am doing a number of certs for houses under construction most of which I designed but i will be suprised if I have any finalised before the end of the year. I definately think assessors need an association but its got to be run by assessors for assessors on a voluntary basis at no cost untill the whole system gets up and running.

Being a BER assessor was pushed as an alternative career for people by all the training providers which it obviously is not for most of the assessors involved. I cant wait for the next SEI assessors workshop!!!:D

baguio · 18-09-2008 10:55am

No6 wrote: »

Being a BER assessor was pushed as an alternative career for people by all the training providers which it obviously is not for most of the assessors involved. I cant wait for the next SEI assessors workshop!!!:D

And it still is by all and sundry! A few weeks back I remember someone on Today FMs Last Word suggesting that this could be an outlet for some of the construction headz that are out of work.
All in favour of deregulated/free market industry - but there should be accurate & responsible info being put out - as people are wasting a lot of time, money and effort if they go forward for training, registration and basic business setup - when they could have been doing the same with something that theres an adequate demand for..

sydthebeat · 18-09-2008 11:20am

I dont know if ive posted this before but...

With the introduction of the 'new dwellings' regulation last 1st july, there came a requirement for a DEAP assessment to be done on a dwelling in order for a certifier to certify that the build is in compliance with building regs, namely Part L.

Now i can see a situation where either the certifer or his/her office will be/have a registered BER assessor on hand to do these calculations. Thus when the BER cert is required the certifier will be the one requested to publish it. This will push out the 'yellow-pack' assessors and also some independant assessor, unless somehow 'tied' with certifiers. the reason for this is simple, why would a client pay twice for the same service???

The argument may be made that the BER assessors report will show compliance or non-compliance, but i, for one, cannot see why certifiers, who would have visited the dwelling during the build, would accept a statement of compliance from an assessor who wouldnt have visited the build and may not be educted from a construction background. Also, many offices would like to be able to offer the client a 'one-stop shop' service.

This will push independent assessors into either the non-dwelling sector, which is HIGHLY restrictive as regards initial education competencies, or the 'existing dwellings' sector..... which i can see becoming dog-eat-dog, with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.

Therefore, i see the future of BER assessments for new builds in a positive light, with assessments being prepared by competant construction professionals. However the 'existing dwelling' BER may fall into disrepute unless SEI can stamp authoruty over the independence of assessors.

Chimpster · 18-09-2008 1:06pm

Post of the day Syd...

Thats more or less the situation as I see it.

As someone mentioned already, there is going to be some crack at then next assessors work shop.

No6 · 18-09-2008 1:16pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.

You can throw the renewable energy installers in here too, they'll be improving everyone's energy rating by selling the most expensive renewable system they have to every poor householder they can get their hands on.

The SEI need to follow up on the the assessors code of conduct and find a few who are in breech of it and throw them out. I may be wrong but i would think that estate agents have a financial interest in the value of a property.

sinnerboy · 18-09-2008 1:40pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I dont know if ive posted this before but...

With the introduction of the 'new dwellings' regulation last 1st july, there came a requirement for a DEAP assessment to be done on a dwelling in order for a certifier to certify that the build is in compliance with building regs, namely Part L.

Now i can see a situation where either the certifer or his/her office will be/have a registered BER assessor on hand to do these calculations. Thus when the BER cert is required the certifier will be the one requested to publish it. This will push out the 'yellow-pack' assessors and also some independant assessor, unless somehow 'tied' with certifiers. the reason for this is simple, why would a client pay twice for the same service???

The argument may be made that the BER assessors report will show compliance or non-compliance, but i, for one, cannot see why certifiers, who would have visited the dwelling during the build, would accept a statement of compliance from an assessor who wouldnt have visited the build and may not be educted from a construction background. Also, many offices would like to be able to offer the client a 'one-stop shop' service.

This will push independent assessors into either the non-dwelling sector, which is HIGHLY restrictive as regards initial education competencies, or the 'existing dwellings' sector..... which i can see becoming dog-eat-dog, with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.

Therefore, i see the future of BER assessments for new builds in a positive light, with assessments being prepared by competant construction professionals. However the 'existing dwelling' BER may fall into disrepute unless SEI can stamp authoruty over the independence of assessors.

All true . My initial reservations that BER will simply be " a thing you ( meaning architects) do anyway" will come to pass . No additional income stream . Just more expense more liability , less return

Villain · 18-09-2008 1:56pm

I would say SYD is probably correct, but I do think there is an increasing number of people building one off homes who don't engage an Architect as such, a lot of people know someone who does drawings on the side i.e. someone who knows how to do a planning application and will draw plans, they also know someone who will do the stage payments and now most likely they will get to know someone who does certs.

A lot of people rather deal with 2 or 3 people rather than relying on 1 person for everything and tbh anyone I know that has used an architect has had the issue of slow response. I used a mate for for my drawings, I used a contact for stage payments and if I wanted a BER cert I know someone who would do it and all 3 added together would be cheaper than using an architect. So while the market may be small there is a market imo

mantoreilly · 18-09-2008 6:12pm

The following is an Email I sent to the SEI in November 2006.They were aware of some of the pitfalls before the implementation of the EPBD directive

To whom it may concern.

>Is it the SEI intention to have all 2000 assessors trained within the first
>year of implementation or will training be phased? It has been suggested
>that full time assessors will be required .150, 000 units a year divided by
2000 at 100 Euros covers the cost of the course it is hardly a career
>option an average nixer at best.
>Also the current available course only covers new build. Will another 2000
>euro plus another 1000 euro to the SEI be required to complete a course for
>existing dwellings?
>Is it true that the SEI definition of an independent assessor allows for an
>architect to provide a certificate on his own design also will the larger
>construction companies provide independent assessors from within their own
>ranks to assess their own work?
>Is it true that energy certificates will be calculated from drawings
>without an as built survey? As an engineer working in Ireland it is common practice
>to make amendments to a drawing by fax the building
>in a lot of cases does not resemble the original drawings.
>Will measuring off drawings be sufficient to provide an accurate energy assessment?
>Talking to a number of people involved in the construction industry >who have closely followed the
>EPBD directive. It is the general consensus that the SEI have not been forthcoming
>about how this directive will effect individual assessors many asking can we make
>a living from this? One individual who is on the SEI mailing list suggested
>to me that all messages from the SEI should be treated as spams and deleted
>as such. It is beginning to look like a money making racket only its
>government funded. 2,000,000 to the SEI is a handy windfall. I look forward
>to your reply

muffler · 18-09-2008 6:34pm

mantoreilly wrote: »

The following is an Email I sent to the SEI in November 2006.They were aware of some of the pitfalls before the implementation of the EPBD directive

To whom it may concern.

>Is it the SEI intention to have all 2000 assessors trained within the first
>year of implementation or will training be phased? It has been suggested
>that full time assessors will be required .150, 000 units a year divided by
2000 at 100 Euros covers the cost of the course it is hardly a career
>option an average nixer at best.
>Also the current available course only covers new build. Will another 2000
>euro plus another 1000 euro to the SEI be required to complete a course for
>existing dwellings?
>Is it true that the SEI definition of an independent assessor allows for an
>architect to provide a certificate on his own design also will the larger
>construction companies provide independent assessors from within their own
>ranks to assess their own work?
>Is it true that energy certificates will be calculated from drawings
>without an as built survey? As an engineer working in Ireland it is common practice
>to make amendments to a drawing by fax the building
>in a lot of cases does not resemble the original drawings.
>Will measuring off drawings be sufficient to provide an accurate energy assessment?
>Talking to a number of people involved in the construction industry >who have closely followed the
>EPBD directive. It is the general consensus that the SEI have not been forthcoming
>about how this directive will effect individual assessors many asking can we make
>a living from this? One individual who is on the SEI mailing list suggested
>to me that all messages from the SEI should be treated as spams and deleted
>as such. It is beginning to look like a money making racket only its
>government funded. 2,000,000 to the SEI is a handy windfall. I look forward
>to your reply

Can you tell us the point of this post or what exactly are you trying to say?

Posting an email that is nearly 2 years old is a bit confusing.

Please also post in the reply box instead of copying and pasting from another doc.

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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