DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

sydthebeat

Anyone see this glaring issue with the Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme....

Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme
Home Energy Surveyor / Assessor Panel

Application Form

The energy surveyor / assessor may be required to indicate to the householder how the energy rating of the
home might be expected to improve based upon the recommended upgrade works. The energy surveyor /
assessor will be required to satisfactorily complete SEI-approved training in surveying methodology and

advisory reports for existing dwellings.

The majority of home energy assessments will be undertaken between June and September.

:eek:

That just bloody typical....

1. They expect us to quote for a restricted contract without even knowing what the methodology will include.....
2. The closing time for tender prices is 5 pm, June 4th 2008.... impossible to tell by then what the course costs are going to be
3. They state the assessments are to be done between june and september without any course being available yet (i assume they are talking about 2008)....

Are they for real?

sinnerboy

I think the scheme is being "rolled out" next year .

Pretty funny though if it is this year - wanting us to implement an assessment method that they have not decided upon yet themselves .

sinnerboy

Is anyone aware of a method to fix a required level of air tightness other by performance specification

i.e. one may specify " Q50 5 ac/ hr" - but in terms of a materials/construcion specification - what does one do ?

Take an analogy with "external wall to achive 0.25 Wm2 K U value"
We have a methodology to to "play" with different wall construction types and can engineer different material layers and thickness to acheive precisely 0.25 . We can then adjust material thickness to answer a query like- "what if we want to improve the wall to 0.22 Wm2 K "

Is there a method to calculate air tightness levels like this ?

cts

sydthebeat wrote: »

Anyone see this glaring issue with the Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme....

Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme
Home Energy Surveyor / Assessor Panel

Application Form

The energy surveyor / assessor may be required to indicate to the householder how the energy rating of the
home might be expected to improve based upon the recommended upgrade works. The energy surveyor /
assessor will be required to satisfactorily complete SEI-approved training in surveying methodology and

advisory reports for existing dwellings.

The majority of home energy assessments will be undertaken between June and September.

:eek:

That just bloody typical....

1. They expect us to quote for a restricted contract without even knowing what the methodology will include.....
2. The closing time for tender prices is 5 pm, June 4th 2008.... impossible to tell by then what the course costs are going to be
3. They state the assessments are to be done between june and september without any course being available yet (i assume they are talking about 2008)....

I couldn't agree more except that as I understand it the SEI course is FREE! It is stated in the "Applicant Declaration" section (2) of the Application Form. You do have to cover your own traveling expenses etc. Please correct me it I have misunderstood this.

smooth operater

sinnerboy wrote: »

Is anyone aware of a method to fix a required level of air tightness other by performance specification

i.e. one may specify " Q50 5 ac/ hr" - but in terms of a materials/construcion specification - what does one do ?

Take an analogy with "external wall to achive 0.25 Wm2 K U value"
We have a methodology to to "play" with different wall construction types and can engineer different material layers and thickness to acheive precisely 0.25 . We can then adjust material thickness to answer a query like- "what if we want to improve the wall to 0.22 Wm2 K "

Is there a method to calculate air tightness levels like this ?

Not that i'm aware of, you have to remember, the quality of the air tightness lies with the tradesmen......

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

Anyone see this glaring issue with the Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme....

Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme
Home Energy Surveyor / Assessor Panel

Application Form

The energy surveyor / assessor may be required to indicate to the householder how the energy rating of the
home might be expected to improve based upon the recommended upgrade works. The energy surveyor /
assessor will be required to satisfactorily complete SEI-approved training in surveying methodology and

advisory reports for existing dwellings.

The majority of home energy assessments will be undertaken between June and September.

:eek:

That just bloody typical....

1. They expect us to quote for a restricted contract without even knowing what the methodology will include.....
2. The closing time for tender prices is 5 pm, June 4th 2008.... impossible to tell by then what the course costs are going to be
3. They state the assessments are to be done between june and september without any course being available yet (i assume they are talking about 2008)....

Are they for real?

Did you notice they are only allowing four hours to survey property and complete assessment
This also is to allow for travel to and from property.
I dont think this will be enough time. unless it is part of a group of similar properties. But in this case they will only allow 2.5 hours.

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

Is anyone aware of a method to fix a required level of air tightness other by performance specification

i.e. one may specify " Q50 5 ac/ hr" - but in terms of a materials/construcion specification - what does one do ?

Take an analogy with "external wall to achive 0.25 Wm2 K U value"
We have a methodology to to "play" with different wall construction types and can engineer different material layers and thickness to acheive precisely 0.25 . We can then adjust material thickness to answer a query like- "what if we want to improve the wall to 0.22 Wm2 K "

Is there a method to calculate air tightness levels like this ?

smooth operater wrote: »

Not that i'm aware of, you have to remember, the quality of the air tightness lies with the tradesmen......

is this what you are looking for

http://www.seda2.org/dfa/

i may be wrong

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

Anyone see this glaring issue with the Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme....

Home Energy Savings Pilot Scheme
Home Energy Surveyor / Assessor Panel

Application Form

The energy surveyor / assessor may be required to indicate to the householder how the energy rating of the
home might be expected to improve based upon the recommended upgrade works. The energy surveyor /
assessor will be required to satisfactorily complete SEI-approved training in surveying methodology and

advisory reports for existing dwellings.

The majority of home energy assessments will be undertaken between June and September.

:eek:

That just bloody typical....

1. They expect us to quote for a restricted contract without even knowing what the methodology will include.....
2. The closing time for tender prices is 5 pm, June 4th 2008.... impossible to tell by then what the course costs are going to be
3. They state the assessments are to be done between june and september without any course being available yet (i assume they are talking about 2008)....

Are they for real?

Check out email from sei

sinnerboy

topcatcbr wrote: »

is this what you are looking for

http://www.seda2.org/dfa/

i may be wrong

That is a useful link indeed TC . A lot of good guidance . thanks for that
But is there a way to "engineer" ait tightness like with u values - it appears not

Designers set the target and trust to specialists to achieve those targets .
I know that the UK retails giants are "big" on this and sometimes a lot of "snag / test / snag again / test again etc " occurs close to completion of those projects .

This text is pasted from the link ( my underlining )

"The performance specification allows appropriate targets to be set for the project, along with a description of how the process is to be conducted, in terms of scheduling, audits and testing, and potentially remedial works. Given the increasing use of specialist subcontractors, particularly in larger projects, it is also critical that the performance specification sets out both the responsibility for, and constructive guidance regarding the co-ordination of trades with respect to the final air permeability of the completed envelope"

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

Check out email from sei

got that today......

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

That is a useful link indeed TC . A lot of good guidance . thanks for that
But is there a way to "engineer" ait tightness like with u values - it appears not

Designers set the target and trust to specialists to achieve those targets .
I know that the UK retails giants are "big" on this and sometimes a lot of "snag / test / snag again / test again etc " occurs close to completion of those projects .

This text is pasted from the link ( my underlining )

"The performance specification allows appropriate targets to be set for the project, along with a description of how the process is to be conducted, in terms of scheduling, audits and testing, and potentially remedial works. Given the increasing use of specialist subcontractors, particularly in larger projects, it is also critical that the performance specification sets out both the responsibility for, and constructive guidance regarding the co-ordination of trades with respect to the final air permeability of the completed envelope"

As far as i know you are right, their is no way of engineering air tightness values as alot of the performance is dependant on workmanship, however a build method ( Insulated Profile metal cladding vs Traditional build,etc) and detail specification can give expected results and by specifying a performance it indicates the quality of workmanship and possibly build method required to meet this specified target. It is not exact and if the building does not meet this target their may be remedial measures which can be imposed.

I hope my reply is not too vague but it is a hard question to answer in a forum like this. I get the impression you are reasonably familiar with this anyway. We will just have to muddle through for now.

ardara1

topcatcbr wrote: »

As far as i know you are right, their is no way of engineering air tightness values as alot of the performance is dependant on workmanship, however a build method ( Insulated Profile metal cladding vs Traditional build,etc) and detail specification can give expected results and by specifying a performance it indicates the quality of workmanship and possibly build method required to meet this specified target. It is not exact and if the building does not meet this target their may be remedial measures which can be imposed.

I hope my reply is not too vague but it is a hard question to answer in a forum like this. I get the impression you are reasonably familiar with this anyway. We will just have to muddle through for now.

Use of Accredited (or Acceptable in Ireland) become mandatory from July in Part L. The details are not only there to stop heat loss thru' thermal bridging at junctions - but also contain the magic 'BLUE LINE' - the air barrier in a construction. (The actually ask for the arch/tech to include a blue line on their own drawings - if it's penetrated, say by a light swith - set a solution for fixing it)
Using Current UK Accredited Details assumes a permeability of 7 Q50 will be achieved (Although in reality a better score is normally reached - Ireland will just adopt these and rename them)
Using the 'Enhanced Accredited Details' (Again UK) assumes 3 Q50 will be achieved.

No6

Nice to see a bit of a debate going on BER assessments, I am a registered Assessor & Architectural Technologist with lots of experience and would concur with some of the comments made about the larger companies, speed BER's. I was looking at on particular one this week and noticed that while the BER is cheaper than I'm doing them for, (not by much!!) the list of extras available and you will probably be given the hard sell on it really stack up. Thermographic survey's (not required even for existing houses according to SEI) Specification Improvments!! ( I'm doing these for free for my own clients!!) As it's not my primary buisness I'm not competeing with them but I do think when a few thousand people have been ripped off with the BER's Thermo graphic Survey's and airtightness testing somebody will have to bring in some regulation of assessors. On another note it would appear that SEI is bringing in some minimum qualifications for assessors like a Construction studies DIP (Its a start!) for existing houses, So far I think the Trianers are the only ones doing well out of the BER!!

sinnerboy

Just got an e mail in from a BER training provider

SEI has just released the Specification for Assessor Training Programmes for Building Energy Rating (BER) of Existing dwellings (draft).

Courses are expected to start in Sept .

This trainer stated - 2 day course €565.00

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

Just got an e mail in from a BER training provider

SEI has just released the Specification for Assessor Training Programmes for Building Energy Rating (BER) of Existing dwellings (draft).

Courses are expected to start in Sept .

This trainer stated - 2 day course €565.00

I got this also
I Think this price is a bit of a rip off
Ill see the requirements
Maybee ill pass the exam without doing this course

baguio

At what stage are landlords required to have a ber. I mean, if this starts legally on 1st Jan. '09, for landlords that are already in the middle of renting, do they have to get them immediately or when offering property for next new tenant after 01.01.2009?

sydthebeat

baguio wrote: »

At what stage are landlords required to have a ber. I mean, if this starts legally on 1st Jan. '09, for landlords that are already in the middle of renting, do they have to get them immediately or when offering property for next new tenant after 01.01.2009?

ggod question.... perhaps contact sei on this....

my opinion would be the latter... becaus eif its currently being rented than its not 'for offer'....

No6

At least it a bit cheaper than the BER course for new houses, I got the same email, they forgot to mention a few other little bits the sei are requiring from assessors to register as an assessor for existing dwellings, extract from SEI website below!!.

Registration requirements – BER assessors existing dwellings (draft)



The registration requirements for BER assessors of existing dwellings are currently being drafted, expected requirements include:

• Successfully complete a recognised training programme which meets the SEI Specification for BER Assessor Training Programmes for BER of Existing Dwellings in full. These training programmes must lead to an award recognised through the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland (NQAI);
• National Certificate Level 6, Advanced Certificate or Higher Certificate in construction studies or other relevant discipline or equivalent.
• Successfully pass a SEI theory examination.
• Agreement to sign a Code of Conduct for existing dwelling
• Payment of the required registration fee
• Clearance by Garda Siochana

sydthebeat

If you are already registered for new dwellings then the proposed registration for existing dwellings is simply a renewal fee of €100... which will mean you are the registered for existing and new for a year from that date....

thats according to SEI today, but obviously could change....

No6

They've had a lot of complaints from assessors about the high cost of training and registration and the very slow trickle of certs being done, about 500 certs published in april by 550 assessors. Nobody's making any money on it yet!!

Chimpster

Legislation is not being enforced, the majority of people building their own houses have no interest in forking out money for a cert unless they know that they absolutly have to get it.

The only ones with any real interest in getting BER certs are developers who use it for marketing purposes but that market has dried up badly in the last few months.

Any opinions on how enforcement can be improved?

sinnerboy

As i posted earlier in this thread LA's have considerable powers under SI 666 2006

Now if they want to they could target Estate Agents and Solicitors ( wording in the act says something like " cert can be demanded from owner OR AGENT" )

This could be done cheaply , " from the desk" by LA's .

Then solicitors and estate agents would be "at the coal face" of implementation

Assessors - cosy up to them now

Slig

Has there ben any certs/assessments checked and refused? I have just seen some adds for A rated houses and they are just standard detached 2 storey housing estste houses with chimneys and no solar panels etc. standard layout aswell. Even with fantastic U-values this couldnt happen!

sydthebeat

Slig wrote: »

Has there ben any certs/assessments checked and refused? I have just seen some adds for A rated houses and they are just standard detached 2 storey housing estste houses with chimneys and no solar panels etc. standard layout aswell. Even with fantastic U-values this couldnt happen!

they could be if theyre connected to a CHP station.....

Slig

nope, efficent gas boiler only

Chimpster

Slig wrote: »

nope, efficent gas boiler only

mmmmmmmmmmmm....

If you combined an...

Excellent Air tightness...

& an Excellent Y factor for thermal bridging....

& Excellent U Values...

No. Very hard to see how they are A rated alright!

Look I've seen houses marketed as A rated houses that were medium B1's at best. I would question the accuracy of alot of the BER's that have been registered so far to be honest.

No6

Chimpster maybe not so much the accuracy of the BER Certs actually published as I believe they are nearly all being audited!! but perhaps the ability of some of the assessors is bit in question, hence the new requirement for existing building of at least a Level 6 National certificate in construction studies or similar!!

baguio

No6 wrote: »

new requirement for existing building of at least a Level 6 National certificate in construction studies or similar!!

Does this apply for existing registered (new build) assessors also? If so, is there not an inconsistency here?
Even though the New and existing build certification is being phased in, surely its unfair to lay down this requirement half way through what is the same process?
Nobody would have had any problem with this, had it been implemented from day1 - but that is not the case here.

sinnerboy

I reckon to watch for advertising slogan of "A Rated" vs "BER Certified A Rated"
the first means nothing the second - big trouble if falsely claimed .

As in "get your A Rated concrete house " or " comply with the new Part L requirements with our solar panels " . I heard adds very like this on the radio today

Watch the phrase "A standard" creep into such adverts I predict

We can wait at least 18 months for the consumers association or some other dynamic govt agency to "pounce" on this I reckon , leaving us here to deal with mis information in the interim

baguio

sinnerboy wrote: »

I reckon to watch for advertising slogan of "A Rated" vs "BER Certified A Rated"
the first means nothing the second - big trouble if falsely claimed.

Have seen numerous examples of the former. I think it is just as bad. Its fine for those of us who are well informed but for your average joe, its seriously misleading.